This has the most wonderful 959 I’ve ever heard. The interpretation stands to Schubert as Bezuidenhout’s first Mozart CD - the uncompromising one with the red cover - stood to Mozart. Here’s a link

https://open.spotify.com/album/41tSyVdTENAsD8qAEdTOge

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 10:34:36 PM UTC, Mandryka wrote:
> This has the most wonderful 959 I’ve ever heard. The interpretation stands to Schubert as Bezuidenhout’s first Mozart CD - the uncompromising one with the red cover - stood to Mozart. Here’s a link
>
> https://open.spotify.com/album/41tSyVdTENAsD8qAEdTOge

Here's the booklet, complete with essay.

http://tobiaskoch.eu/wp-content/uploads/SCHUBERT_SONATAS_TOBIAS_KOCH.pdf

In article <7ab5e05c-a044-4593-96d6-6785819ea518n@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:
>This has the most wonderful 959 I've ever heard.

I checked this out after you (I think it was you?) posted about
this pianist here....

3CDs recording is on the MusikMuseum label, released 2020, titled
Zukunfstmusik.

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 10:46:03 PM UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <7ab5e05c-a044-4593...@googlegroups.com>,
> Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >This has the most wonderful 959 I've ever heard.
> I checked this out after you (I think it was you?) posted about
> this pianist here....
>
> 3CDs recording is on the MusikMuseum label, released 2020, titled
> Zukunfstmusik.

Yes, I remember you mentioned it at the time.

Listening again to the 960 something which I think I got from Richard Barrett’s book came to mind - that one possible mark of improvisation is that the performer creates the music in response to the specific sound qualities of the instrument he’s using. And suddenly I saw what’s really essentially gained by using a piano like the one Koch uses - it’s that he is creating D960 by tapping into the unique timbral possibilities of his piano. What he does is in some as yet undefined sense more improvisatory, or differently improvisatory, than, for example, to pick a name at random, Curzon.

On Monday, January 31, 2022 at 9:06:11 AM UTC-8, Mandryka wrote:
>
> Listening again to the 960 something which I
> think I got from Richard Barrett’s book came to
> mind - that one possible mark of improvisation is
> that the performer creates the music in response
> to the specific sound qualities of the instrument
> he’s using. And suddenly I saw what’s really
> essentially gained by using a piano like the
> one Koch uses - it’s that he is creating D960
> by tapping into the unique timbral possibilities
> of his piano. What he does is in some as yet
> undefined sense more improvisatory, or
> differently improvisatory, than, for example,
> to pick a name at random, Curzon.

Curzon never came even 10,000 miles close to
any kind of "improvisation". He was a starch
from head to toe stiff upper lip (and every
other body part) arrogant English pianist
who claimed he was better than Richter!

What an idiot!

dk

In article <1cf34f6f-39b8-4e32-a132-8de1a77c22dcn@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 10:46:03 PM UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
>>3CDs recording is on the MusikMuseum label, released 2020, titled
>>Zukunfstmusik.
>And suddenly I saw what's really essentially gained by using a
>piano like the one Koch uses - it’s that he is creating D960 by
>tapping into the unique timbral possibilities of his piano.

Finally getting back to this today, the first thing I notice to
start any of these three sonatas is the relative lack of resonance...
followed by the basic physicality required to play the music. Time,
likewise, can seem more labored -- rather than drifting into a kind
of haze, as Schubert repeats can seem to do. And I do feel I'm
hearing new aspects of the music.

In article <suhao0$rs1$1@hope.eyrie.org>,
Todd M. McComb <mccomb@medieval.org> wrote:
>In article <1cf34f6f-39b8-4e32-a132-8de1a77c22dcn@googlegroups.com>,
>Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:
>>And suddenly I saw what's really essentially gained by using a
>>piano like the one Koch uses - it's that he is creating D960 by
>>tapping into the unique timbral possibilities of his piano.
>Finally getting back to this today, the first thing I notice to
>start any of these three sonatas is the relative lack of resonance...
>followed by the basic physicality required to play the music. Time,
>likewise, can seem more labored -- rather than drifting into a kind
>of haze, as Schubert repeats can seem to do. And I do feel I'm
>hearing new aspects of the music.

Maybe this response came off as too ambivalent. I'm continuing to
listen to this set, and finding it increasingly engaging. The
opening movement of D960 is revelatory, as Mandryka had noted early
on, but everything else is engaging too. I thought I'd burn out
my interest here, but that doesn't appear to be the case. I don't
know if Koch is the "world's greatest pianist" (as I believe Howie
had quipped a while back...), but he's certainly worth hearing in
Schubert.

On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 6:24:01 PM UTC-5, Todd M. McComb wrote:
>
> he's certainly worth hearing in Schubert.
>

Let's be serious. He can barely play the
piano. And he cannot reach the pedals.
I listened to D.958 for a few minutes.
Nauseating.

dk

In article <c56f5738-5650-4c52-a7c3-2468b022cf14n@googlegroups.com>,
Dan Koren <dan.koren@gmail.com> wrote:
>I listened to D.958 for a few minutes. Nauseating.

Snap judgments are always the best judgments, after all.

On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 8:34:38 PM UTC-5, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <c56f5738-5650-4c52...@googlegroups.com>,
> Dan Koren <dan....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >I listened to D.958 for a few minutes. Nauseating.
> Snap judgments are always the best judgments, after all.

This is not a "snap" judgment. It is
a considered professional opinion.

dk

On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 7:39:18 PM UTC-6, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 8:34:38 PM UTC-5, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> > In article <c56f5738-5650-4c52...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Dan Koren <dan....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >I listened to D.958 for a few minutes. Nauseating.
> > Snap judgments are always the best judgments, after all.
> This is not a "snap" judgment. It is
> a considered professional opinion.
>
> dk

I agree with Dan. If that's the way Schubert sounded on the forte piano back in the day, it's a wonder that any of his music survived..

In article <634be591-ff1b-4de5-a743-809cf0adad60n@googlegroups.com>,
Lawrence Kart <ljkart@aol.com> wrote:
>If that's the way Schubert sounded on the forte piano back in the
>day, it's a wonder that any of his music survived..

Funny, these performances have had me whistling the tunes like no
others....

On Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 1:09:52 PM UTC-5, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <634be591-ff1b-4de5...@googlegroups.com>,
> Lawrence Kart <ljk...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > If that's the way Schubert sounded on
> > the forte piano back in the day, it's a
> wonder that any of his music survived..
>
> Funny, these performances have
> had me whistling the tunes like
> no others....

So the ultimate criterion for great
pianistic art is whether it makes
one whistle the tunes? Sounds a
bit strage. Can you whistle any of
the Chopin Etudes? Or Mazeppa?
What about all the notes left out
of the "whistle"?

dk

In article <82852ebd-f209-414a-9782-512009aef2dbn@googlegroups.com>,
Dan Koren <dan.koren@gmail.com> wrote:
>So the ultimate criterion for great pianistic art is whether it
>makes one whistle the tunes? Sounds a bit strage. Can you whistle
>any of the Chopin Etudes? Or Mazeppa? What about all the notes
>left out of the "whistle"?

No, Dan, that is not the criterion, as if such exists.

Perhaps I should have pointed out to Lawrence that, Schubert aside,
we do know what pianos sounded like. Koch is playing quite a fancy
one, actually, using different registers & the like. I like the
sound of it. And no, Dan, that is not the ultimate criterion for
great pianistic art -- as if such exists.

But Dan, no one in the universe would expect you to like this music.
Please don't act as if I suggested that you might. (I did think,
a while back, that maybe you'd like Byrd, but oh well. I think
it's sad that you don't, but that's your business.) Some discussions
really don't involve you.

(Ha! And to think that someone *else* in this group is currently
being criticized for "hyperbole" of all things....)

On Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 12:38:57 PM UTC-6, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <82852ebd-f209-414a...@googlegroups.com>,
> Dan Koren <dan....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >So the ultimate criterion for great pianistic art is whether it
> >makes one whistle the tunes? Sounds a bit strage. Can you whistle
> >any of the Chopin Etudes? Or Mazeppa? What about all the notes
> >left out of the "whistle"?
> No, Dan, that is not the criterion, as if such exists.
>
> Perhaps I should have pointed out to Lawrence that, Schubert aside,
> we do know what pianos sounded like. Koch is playing quite a fancy
> one, actually, using different registers & the like. I like the
> sound of it. And no, Dan, that is not the ultimate criterion for
> great pianistic art -- as if such exists.
>
> But Dan, no one in the universe would expect you to like this music.
> Please don't act as if I suggested that you might. (I did think,
> a while back, that maybe you'd like Byrd, but oh well. I think
> it's sad that you don't, but that's your business.) Some discussions
> really don't involve you.
>
> (Ha! And to think that someone *else* in this group is currently
> being criticized for "hyperbole" of all things....)

Todd: I've heard plenty of forte pianos from that era that don't sound as rattle-trap as this one -- I'm reminded of a vintage Volkswagen that's badly in need of an oil change, though much of this may be due to Koch's leaden foot on the gear shift.

On Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 3:01:45 PM UTC-5, ljk...@aol.com wrote:
> On Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 12:38:57 PM UTC-6, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> > In article <82852ebd-f209-414a...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Dan Koren <dan....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >So the ultimate criterion for great pianistic art is whether it
> > >makes one whistle the tunes? Sounds a bit strage. Can you whistle
> > >any of the Chopin Etudes? Or Mazeppa? What about all the notes
> > >left out of the "whistle"?
> > No, Dan, that is not the criterion, as if such exists.
> >
> > Perhaps I should have pointed out to Lawrence that, Schubert aside,
> > we do know what pianos sounded like. Koch is playing quite a fancy
> > one, actually, using different registers & the like. I like the
> > sound of it. And no, Dan, that is not the ultimate criterion for
> > great pianistic art -- as if such exists.
> >
> > But Dan, no one in the universe would expect you to like this music.
> > Please don't act as if I suggested that you might. (I did think,
> > a while back, that maybe you'd like Byrd, but oh well. I think
> > it's sad that you don't, but that's your business.) Some discussions
> > really don't involve you.
> >
> > (Ha! And to think that someone *else* in this group is currently
> > being criticized for "hyperbole" of all things....)
> Todd: I've heard plenty of forte pianos from that era that don't sound as rattle-trap as this one -- I'm reminded of a vintage Volkswagen that's badly in need of an oil change, though much of this may be due to Koch's leaden foot on the gear shift.

He needs vintage Audi! ;-)
Preferably one with a
rotary engine.

dk

In article <be1dd4ab-abd4-4555-b3f8-a668db33932fn@googlegroups.com>,
Lawrence Kart <ljkart@aol.com> wrote:
>I've heard plenty of forte pianos from that era that don't sound
>as rattle-trap as this one -- I'm reminded of a vintage Volkswagen
>that's badly in need of an oil change, though much of this may be
>due to Koch's leaden foot on the gear shift.

He really ends up with a singing tone out of it. It's part of what
makes the music feel as though it's "spontaneously created" -- per
Mandryka's remarks -- i.e. that the singing quality seems to arise
via effort. I like the sound of it more & more, but didn't
immediately. The feeling of using the full resources of the
instrument also adds to the sense of drama cultivated particularly
in the opening movements, with their sort of "character development"
amid strong timbral contrasts.

On 2/27/2022 3:09 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 3:01:45 PM UTC-5, ljk...@aol.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 12:38:57 PM UTC-6, Todd M. McComb wrote:
>>> In article <82852ebd-f209-414a...@googlegroups.com>,
>>> Dan Koren <dan....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> So the ultimate criterion for great pianistic art is whether it
>>>> makes one whistle the tunes? Sounds a bit strage. Can you whistle
>>>> any of the Chopin Etudes? Or Mazeppa? What about all the notes
>>>> left out of the "whistle"?
>>> No, Dan, that is not the criterion, as if such exists.
>>>
>>> Perhaps I should have pointed out to Lawrence that, Schubert aside,
>>> we do know what pianos sounded like. Koch is playing quite a fancy
>>> one, actually, using different registers & the like. I like the
>>> sound of it. And no, Dan, that is not the ultimate criterion for
>>> great pianistic art -- as if such exists.
>>>
>>> But Dan, no one in the universe would expect you to like this music.
>>> Please don't act as if I suggested that you might. (I did think,
>>> a while back, that maybe you'd like Byrd, but oh well. I think
>>> it's sad that you don't, but that's your business.) Some discussions
>>> really don't involve you.
>>>
>>> (Ha! And to think that someone *else* in this group is currently
>>> being criticized for "hyperbole" of all things....)
>> Todd: I've heard plenty of forte pianos from that era that don't sound as rattle-trap as this one -- I'm reminded of a vintage Volkswagen that's badly in need of an oil change, though much of this may be due to Koch's leaden foot on the gear shift.
>
> He needs vintage Audi! ;-)
> Preferably one with a
> rotary engine.
>
> dk

The only love/hate relationship I've had in my life was with my Audi 100 LS. A wonderful car when it ran, but much of the time it didn't. I bought it new in 1973, replaced it with a VW Rabbit in 1976. In that time the engine fan caught fire, the electronic brain failed (twice), it was delivered with a large crease in the leatherette dashboard. Service was even worse. One day when the car was a couple of months old the hood release mechanism broke. The hood wouldn't open. Took it in for service and they tried to charge me for the repair. I said the car is under warranty. They said it was an adjustment not a repair and therefore not covered. I got hysterical and started screaming at them and they gave in. Then there was the day I drove into their driveway with smoke pouring out from under the hood (fan motor was burning) and the service guy asked me if I had an appointment, if not they were busy. I said if I knew the car was going to catch fire I would have made an appointment. He didn't see the humor. I said I was leaving the car in the driveway and they could so what they wanted with it. And did. Then it took 3 weeks to have a new fan motor put in, because they were out of stock and would not put a 1972 model fan motor in because it was better and more expensive (and not prone to catching fire).

On 2/27/22 2:10 PM, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <be1dd4ab-abd4-4555-b3f8-a668db33932fn@googlegroups.com>,
> Lawrence Kart <ljkart@aol.com> wrote:
>> I've heard plenty of forte pianos from that era that don't sound
>> as rattle-trap as this one -- I'm reminded of a vintage Volkswagen
>> that's badly in need of an oil change, though much of this may be
>> due to Koch's leaden foot on the gear shift.
>
> He really ends up with a singing tone out of it. It's part of what
> makes the music feel as though it's "spontaneously created" -- per
> Mandryka's remarks -- i.e. that the singing quality seems to arise
> via effort. I like the sound of it more & more, but didn't
> immediately. The feeling of using the full resources of the
> instrument also adds to the sense of drama cultivated particularly
> in the opening movements, with their sort of "character development"
> amid strong timbral contrasts.

Snap judgment: I really like the stop for the Bb first movement Gb
contrasting key area. Not keen on the divided hands and the draggy
pauses, but he's not the only offender there. And the famous bass trill
isn't the usual mess.

On Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 3:32:03 PM UTC-6, MINe109 wrote:
> On 2/27/22 2:10 PM, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> > In article <be1dd4ab-abd4-4555...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Lawrence Kart <ljk...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> I've heard plenty of forte pianos from that era that don't sound
> >> as rattle-trap as this one -- I'm reminded of a vintage Volkswagen
> >> that's badly in need of an oil change, though much of this may be
> >> due to Koch's leaden foot on the gear shift.
> >
> > He really ends up with a singing tone out of it. It's part of what
> > makes the music feel as though it's "spontaneously created" -- per
> > Mandryka's remarks -- i.e. that the singing quality seems to arise
> > via effort. I like the sound of it more & more, but didn't
> > immediately. The feeling of using the full resources of the
> > instrument also adds to the sense of drama cultivated particularly
> > in the opening movements, with their sort of "character development"
> > amid strong timbral contrasts.
> Snap judgment: I really like the stop for the Bb first movement Gb
> contrasting key area. Not keen on the divided hands and the draggy
> pauses, but he's not the only offender there. And the famous bass trill
> isn't the usual mess.

I had an Audi Fox that caught fire under the hood in the service place's driveway, While the motor was running, hot oil dripped from the side of the engine onto the exhaust manifold, which was made of cardboard (!!) as I recall, and we had smoke and flames. Cute car though. My young son loved its metal fox logo.

On Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 3:10:46 PM UTC-5, Todd M. McComb wrote:
>
> He really ends up with a singing
> tone out of it. It's part of what
> makes the music feel as though
> it's "spontaneously created" -- per
> Mandryka's remarks -- i.e. that the
> singing quality seems to arise
> via effort. I like the sound of it
> more & more, but didn't
> immediately. The feeling of using
> the full resources of the
> instrument also adds to the sense
> of drama cultivated particularly
> in the opening movements, with
> their sort of "character development"
> amid strong timbral contrasts.

You should hear the sound of an
Audi RS4 (B5) when I press the
pedals! ;-)

dk

On Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 5:37:32 PM UTC-5, ljk...@aol.com wrote:
>
> I had an Audi Fox that caught
> fire under the hood in the service
> place's driveway, While the motor
> was running, hot oil dripped from
> the side of the engine onto the
> exhaust manifold, which was
> made of cardboard (!!) as I recall,
> and we had smoke and flames.
> Cute car though. My young son
> loved its metal fox logo.

Sorry to hear about this incident
and about the loss of your Audi.
The explanation provided above
is however incorrect. Exhaust
manifolds cannot be made of
cardboard. The temperature
of exhaust gas is too high to
allow any materials other than
than steel alloys and/or ceramic
to be used in making exhaust
manifolds.

dk

On Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 1:38:57 PM UTC-5, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <82852ebd-f209-414a...@googlegroups.com>,
> Dan Koren <dan....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >So the ultimate criterion for great pianistic art is whether it
> >makes one whistle the tunes? Sounds a bit strage. Can you whistle
> >any of the Chopin Etudes? Or Mazeppa? What about all the notes
> >left out of the "whistle"?
> No, Dan, that is not the criterion, as if such exists.
>
> Perhaps I should have pointed out to Lawrence that, Schubert aside,
> we do know what pianos sounded like. Koch is playing quite a fancy
> one, actually, using different registers & the like. I like the
> sound of it. And no, Dan, that is not the ultimate criterion for
> great pianistic art -- as if such exists.
>
> But Dan, no one in the universe would expect you to like this music.
> Please don't act as if I suggested that you might. (I did think,
> a while back, that maybe you'd like Byrd, but oh well. I think
> it's sad that you don't, but that's your business.) Some discussions
> really don't involve you.
>
> (Ha! And to think that someone *else* in this group is currently
> being criticized for "hyperbole" of all things....)

Let's simplify things so we can
understand each other clearly.

I wouldn't want to hear any pianist
perform on the instrument Mr. Koch
is using. And I wouldn't want to hear
Mr. Koch perform on any instrument
no matter how good.

Likewise, I wouldn't want to hear
Byrd's music performed on any
instrument. There are plenty of
birds in my backyard, and they
sing beautiful music witn my
cats accompanying them! ;-)

dk

In article <e78ddafb-b97a-4f84-8c96-7d189fe17d6cn@googlegroups.com>,
Dan Koren <dan.koren@gmail.com> wrote:
>I wouldn't want to hear any pianist perform on the instrument Mr.
>Koch is using. And I wouldn't want to hear Mr. Koch perform on any
>instrument no matter how good.

There's no lack of understanding underway. It's simply you shitting
all over a thread where no one would expect you'd have any interest
in the first place. Your "contribution" is null.

On Monday, February 28, 2022 at 2:50:29 PM UTC-5, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <e78ddafb-b97a-4f84...@googlegroups.com>,
> Dan Koren <dan....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
>> I wouldn't want to hear any pianist
> > perform on the instrument Mr. Koch
> > is using. And I wouldn't want to hear
> > Mr. Koch perform on any instrument
> > no matter how good.
>
> There's no lack of understanding underway.

How so?

> It's simply you shitting all over a thread where

Show us the shit. Did you notice the color of
Mr. Koch's "piano"?

> no one would expect you'd have any interest
> in the first place.

I am always interested in hearing great Schubert
interpretations. And I listened through Mr. Koch's
"performance".

> Your "contribution" is null.

Yet another perfect example of suppression of
minority opinions. This ng has become really
intolerant of opinions that diverge from the
"norms". Automaticalli liking things and
going gaga over the slightest bit of
historical crap is now deemed to
make "contributions". Not liking
what everybody else likes is no
"contribution". Did you catch the
Melmoth disease? Or did you
learn this technique in party
indoctrination sessions?

dk