I'm interested in the response to Hamelin's CPE Bach. I've given it just a first listen, but I'm extremely impressed. This may be the first performance of his keyboard works that really gets through to me: extremely improvisational and very light of touch. I was somewhat disappointed by Peter Serkin's traversal, and other pianists have left me even colder. But I think Hamelin has a real feeling for EB. As I think about it, what was best about his Haydn is even more appropriate for EB, like the splashy, sparkling effects and the perfectly timed pauses. To put it negatively, Hamelin downplays the affekt, which I can do without in EB, but sometimes diminishes his JH.

But this is just a first impression.

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 5:12:29 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 12:31:05 AM UTC+11, lenny2005 wrote:
> > On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 9:30:49 AM UTC, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Yes, the British Critics are at it again. Here is The Gramophone's current Top CDs for 2022, predictably stuffed with Elgar, Holst, Vaughan Williams, Tavener etc. played by and ludicrously inept British orchestras with British conductors and soloists. WARNING: this list is not suitable for persons of a nervous disposition.
> > >
> > > 1. Beethoven ‘Révolution, Vol 2’ Symphonies Nos 6-9. Le Concert des Nations / Jordi Savall
> > > 2. Respighi. Schoenberg. R Strauss ‘Métamorphoses nocturnes’. Appassionato / Mathieu Herzog
> > > 3. Brahms Clarinet Sonatas. Michael Collins cl Stephen Hough pf
> > > 4. Weinberg ‘Light in Darkness’. Linus Roth vn et al
> > > 5. CPE Bach Sonatas & Rondos. Marc-André Hamelin pf
> > > 6. Liszt ‘Vol 1: Death and Transfiguration’. Kenneth Hamilton pf
> > > 7. ‘Maria & Maddalena’. Francesca Aspromonte sop I Barocchisti / Diego Fasolis
> > > 8. ‘Song’. The Hermes Experiment
> > > 9. Rameau Acante et Céphise. Les Ambassadeurs – La Grande Écurie / Alexis Kossenko
> > > 10. ‘Mirrors’ Jeanine De Bique sop., Concerto Köln / Luca Quintavalle
> > >
> > > Andrew Clarke
> > > Canberra
> > The British orchestras and conductors on this list are, in fact, so ludicrously inept that they appear not to have turned up to the recording sessions and had their names removed from the finished product.
> >
> > Agree about the British bias of The Gramophone but really...
> People like The Tum-Tum with the Tam-Tam ;-) keep telling us about the British bias of British critics, but the Gramophone Awards and their Recordings of the Month really don't bear this out. I find a lot of their reviews vapid, but not biased. And of course they never seem to include Desperate Dan's preferred pianists for some reason or other.
>
> <https://i.pinimg.com/originals/44/1e/30/441e3036c1d9bf9f57c0f5e81fefb031..jpg>
>
> Meanwhile, here are the (London) Daily Telegraph's latest recommendations:
>
> Verdi: Rigoletto. Maggio Musicale Fiorentino (DVD)
>
> Hans Werner Henze: Nachtstuecke und Arien, etc. Juliane Banse, Narek Hakhnazaryan, Austrian Radio Symphony Orchestra.
>
> CPE Bach. Sonatas and Rondos, Marc-Andre Hamelin (also on The Gramophone's list).
>
> No Brits at all in this one. And the Telegraph is a right of centre daily rapidly going downmarket, so I'm surprised it still reviews classical CDs at all.
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 6:52:23 PM UTC-6, Peter wrote:
> I'm interested in the response to Hamelin's CPE Bach. I've given it just a first listen, but I'm extremely impressed. This may be the first performance of his keyboard works that really gets through to me: extremely improvisational and very light of touch. I was somewhat disappointed by Peter Serkin's traversal, and other pianists have left me even colder. But I think Hamelin has a real feeling for EB. As I think about it, what was best about his Haydn is even more appropriate for EB, like the splashy, sparkling effects and the perfectly timed pauses. To put it negatively, Hamelin downplays the affekt, which I can do without in EB, but sometimes diminishes his JH.
>
> But this is just a first impression.

Hamelin's C.P.E. Bach sounds like he's battling an attack of biting insects and losing. For C.P.E. Bach on the piano, try Pletnev.

On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 3:49:33 PM UTC+11, ljk...@aol.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 6:52:23 PM UTC-6, Peter wrote:
> > I'm interested in the response to Hamelin's CPE Bach. I've given it just a first listen, but I'm extremely impressed. This may be the first performance of his keyboard works that really gets through to me: extremely improvisational and very light of touch. I was somewhat disappointed by Peter Serkin's traversal, and other pianists have left me even colder. But I think Hamelin has a real feeling for EB. As I think about it, what was best about his Haydn is even more appropriate for EB, like the splashy, sparkling effects and the perfectly timed pauses. To put it negatively, Hamelin downplays the affekt, which I can do without in EB, but sometimes diminishes his JH..
> >
> > But this is just a first impression.
> Hamelin's C.P.E. Bach sounds like he's battling an attack of biting insects and losing. For C.P.E. Bach on the piano, try Pletnev.

A very stupid answer to a perfectly intelligent question. Meanwhile, nobody has responded to the main thrust of this thread, which is that the common belief about British critics being demonstrably biased in favour of British performances - which seems to be part of the US Oath of Allegiance - is increasingly not born out by the evidence. I have asked, at least twice, for people to give me concrete examples of this alleged bias, and on every occasion the response is a deafening silence.

It's true that The Gramophone etc. aren't publishing rave reviews of the Pittsburg, the Detroit or the Cleveland. But there's a reason for that ....

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 3:39:12 PM UTC-6, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 3:49:33 PM UTC+11, ljk...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 6:52:23 PM UTC-6, Peter wrote:
> > > I'm interested in the response to Hamelin's CPE Bach. I've given it just a first listen, but I'm extremely impressed. This may be the first performance of his keyboard works that really gets through to me: extremely improvisational and very light of touch. I was somewhat disappointed by Peter Serkin's traversal, and other pianists have left me even colder. But I think Hamelin has a real feeling for EB. As I think about it, what was best about his Haydn is even more appropriate for EB, like the splashy, sparkling effects and the perfectly timed pauses. To put it negatively, Hamelin downplays the affekt, which I can do without in EB, but sometimes diminishes his JH.
> > >
> > > But this is just a first impression.
> > Hamelin's C.P.E. Bach sounds like he's battling an attack of biting insects and losing. For C.P.E. Bach on the piano, try Pletnev.
> A very stupid answer to a perfectly intelligent question. Meanwhile, nobody has responded to the main thrust of this thread, which is that the common belief about British critics being demonstrably biased in favour of British performances - which seems to be part of the US Oath of Allegiance - is increasingly not born out by the evidence. I have asked, at least twice, for people to give me concrete examples of this alleged bias, and on every occasion the response is a deafening silence.
>
> It's true that The Gramophone etc. aren't publishing rave reviews of the Pittsburg, the Detroit or the Cleveland. But there's a reason for that ....
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

If you're referring to my "very stupid answer," I was attempting to convey, albeit in a flippant manner, my impression that Hamelin's approach to C.P..Bach was marked by an excessively high degree of nervous agitation.

On 2/16/2022 4:39 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 3:49:33 PM UTC+11, ljk...@aol.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 6:52:23 PM UTC-6, Peter wrote:
>>> I'm interested in the response to Hamelin's CPE Bach. I've given it just a first listen, but I'm extremely impressed. This may be the first performance of his keyboard works that really gets through to me: extremely improvisational and very light of touch. I was somewhat disappointed by Peter Serkin's traversal, and other pianists have left me even colder. But I think Hamelin has a real feeling for EB. As I think about it, what was best about his Haydn is even more appropriate for EB, like the splashy, sparkling effects and the perfectly timed pauses. To put it negatively, Hamelin downplays the affekt, which I can do without in EB, but sometimes diminishes his JH.
>>>
>>> But this is just a first impression.
>> Hamelin's C.P.E. Bach sounds like he's battling an attack of biting insects and losing. For C.P.E. Bach on the piano, try Pletnev.
>
> A very stupid answer to a perfectly intelligent question. Meanwhile, nobody has responded to the main thrust of this thread, which is that the common belief about British critics being demonstrably biased in favour of British performances - which seems to be part of the US Oath of Allegiance - is increasingly not born out by the evidence. I have asked, at least twice, for people to give me concrete examples of this alleged bias, and on every occasion the response is a deafening silence.
>
> It's true that The Gramophone etc. aren't publishing rave reviews of the Pittsburg, the Detroit or the Cleveland. But there's a reason for that ....
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

Years ago, when I regularly read Gramophone, it was not unusual for me, and others, to observe that in our collective opinion, Gramophone seemed to rate British-connected recordings too highly. I don't recall whether the "bias" was for orchestras, composers, performers or conductors or all of them. But that's what a lot of people thought. As to examples, I can't recall. As to whether there IS a bias, why shouldn't there be? It's human nature to be chauvinistic. There's nothing wrong with that, up to a point. Whether Gramophone exceeds or exceeded that point, I have no opinion. Your defense of Gramophone reminds me of your denial of virtually any meaningful antisemitism in British high circles. Bias exists everywhere. Antisemitism exists everywhere. Why not the UK?

On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 1:39:12 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 3:49:33 PM UTC+11, ljk...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 6:52:23 PM UTC-6, Peter wrote:
> > > I'm interested in the response to Hamelin's CPE Bach. I've given it just a first listen, but I'm extremely impressed. This may be the first performance of his keyboard works that really gets through to me: extremely improvisational and very light of touch. I was somewhat disappointed by Peter Serkin's traversal, and other pianists have left me even colder. But I think Hamelin has a real feeling for EB. As I think about it, what was best about his Haydn is even more appropriate for EB, like the splashy, sparkling effects and the perfectly timed pauses. To put it negatively, Hamelin downplays the affekt, which I can do without in EB, but sometimes diminishes his JH.
> > >
> > > But this is just a first impression.
> > Hamelin's C.P.E. Bach sounds like he's battling an attack of biting insects and losing. For C.P.E. Bach on the piano, try Pletnev.
> A very stupid answer to a perfectly intelligent question. Meanwhile, nobody has responded to the main thrust of this thread, which is that the common belief about British critics being demonstrably biased in favour of British performances - which seems to be part of the US Oath of Allegiance - is increasingly not born out by the evidence. I have asked, at least twice, for people to give me concrete examples of this alleged bias, and on every occasion the response is a deafening silence.
>
> It's true that The Gramophone etc. aren't publishing rave reviews of the Pittsburg, the Detroit or the Cleveland. But there's a reason for that ....
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

I admit that I used to think similarly. With time, I came to realize that one of the reasons British recordings and music were so often praised in Gramophone was partly because so much of the classical recording industry is based in the UK and partly because British musicians seem a lot more interested in exploring, recording, and promoting their own music than Americans are in theirs. In fact, they just seem more interested and enthusiastic about classical music in general.

Still, Gramophone's ghettoizing American recordings into a separate section (do they still do that?) wasn't a good look.

On 2/16/2022 9:33 PM, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 7:28:56 PM UTC-6, Frank Berger wrote:
>
>> I bunch of NHK recordings in the Japanese King label just appeared at BRSO. It was one of those, I think.
>
> I always check out the Berkshire Radio Symphony Orchestra when I'm in town. Tickets are always discounted. ;-)

Oops.

On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 9:56:42 AM UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 2/16/2022 4:39 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 3:49:33 PM UTC+11, ljk...@aol.com wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 6:52:23 PM UTC-6, Peter wrote:
> >>> I'm interested in the response to Hamelin's CPE Bach. I've given it just a first listen, but I'm extremely impressed. This may be the first performance of his keyboard works that really gets through to me: extremely improvisational and very light of touch. I was somewhat disappointed by Peter Serkin's traversal, and other pianists have left me even colder. But I think Hamelin has a real feeling for EB. As I think about it, what was best about his Haydn is even more appropriate for EB, like the splashy, sparkling effects and the perfectly timed pauses. To put it negatively, Hamelin downplays the affekt, which I can do without in EB, but sometimes diminishes his JH.
> >>>
> >>> But this is just a first impression.
> >> Hamelin's C.P.E. Bach sounds like he's battling an attack of biting insects and losing. For C.P.E. Bach on the piano, try Pletnev.
> >
> > A very stupid answer to a perfectly intelligent question. Meanwhile, nobody has responded to the main thrust of this thread, which is that the common belief about British critics being demonstrably biased in favour of British performances - which seems to be part of the US Oath of Allegiance - is increasingly not born out by the evidence. I have asked, at least twice, for people to give me concrete examples of this alleged bias, and on every occasion the response is a deafening silence.
> >
> > It's true that The Gramophone etc. aren't publishing rave reviews of the Pittsburg, the Detroit or the Cleveland. But there's a reason for that .....
> >
> > Andrew Clarke
> > Canberra
> Years ago, when I regularly read Gramophone, it was not unusual for me, and others, to observe that in our collective opinion, Gramophone seemed to rate British-connected recordings too highly. I don't recall whether the "bias" was for orchestras, composers, performers or conductors or all of them.. But that's what a lot of people thought. As to examples, I can't recall. As to whether there IS a bias, why shouldn't there be? It's human nature to be chauvinistic. There's nothing wrong with that, up to a point. Whether Gramophone exceeds or exceeded that point, I have no opinion. Your defense of Gramophone reminds me of your denial of virtually any meaningful antisemitism in British high circles. Bias exists everywhere. Antisemitism exists everywhere. Why not the UK?

There is no significant or institutional antisemitism in the United Kingdom, especially not in high circles: note the decorations awarded to the late Joe Loss, the Royal Family's favourite band leader, or the popularity of Ambrose, another band leader and Jewish refugee from the Russian Empire, also a favourite in high society. The Daily Telegraph, a London newspaper has recently published a report, plus amateur video, of a Jewish mother and child being racially abused by some thug in Stamford Hill, and there was another case of a bus containing members of a Jewish organisation being abused by young men of Middle Eastern origin. Both incidents were reported as disgraceful.

There is no longer any significant bias towards British performers in The Gramophone or any other British newspaper of magazine worthy of consideration. What you and your friends "thought" to be so, may be due to a number of factors. I'll say it again: if you can cite a British review of a British performance that can only be due to bias for the 'home team' I'll be glad to consider it.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 9:23:07 PM UTC-6, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:

> There is no longer any significant bias towards British performers in The Gramophone or any other British newspaper of magazine worthy of consideration. What you and your friends "thought" to be so, may be due to a number of factors. I'll say it again: if you can cite a British review of a British performance that can only be due to bias for the 'home team' I'll be glad to consider it.
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

1. Reputations matter, and are often based on reality. They often linger well after factual basis dissipates completely (e.g. "the party of fiscal responsibility")
2. You've come out of the gate swinging. Does somebody really need correcting?

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/stories-59526412On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 9:23:07 PM UTC-6, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 9:56:42 AM UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> > On 2/16/2022 4:39 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 3:49:33 PM UTC+11, ljk...@aol.com wrote:
> > >> On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 6:52:23 PM UTC-6, Peter wrote:
> > >>> I'm interested in the response to Hamelin's CPE Bach. I've given it just a first listen, but I'm extremely impressed. This may be the first performance of his keyboard works that really gets through to me: extremely improvisational and very light of touch. I was somewhat disappointed by Peter Serkin's traversal, and other pianists have left me even colder. But I think Hamelin has a real feeling for EB. As I think about it, what was best about his Haydn is even more appropriate for EB, like the splashy, sparkling effects and the perfectly timed pauses. To put it negatively, Hamelin downplays the affekt, which I can do without in EB, but sometimes diminishes his JH.
> > >>>
> > >>> But this is just a first impression.
> > >> Hamelin's C.P.E. Bach sounds like he's battling an attack of biting insects and losing. For C.P.E. Bach on the piano, try Pletnev.
> > >
> > > A very stupid answer to a perfectly intelligent question. Meanwhile, nobody has responded to the main thrust of this thread, which is that the common belief about British critics being demonstrably biased in favour of British performances - which seems to be part of the US Oath of Allegiance - is increasingly not born out by the evidence. I have asked, at least twice, for people to give me concrete examples of this alleged bias, and on every occasion the response is a deafening silence.
> > >
> > > It's true that The Gramophone etc. aren't publishing rave reviews of the Pittsburg, the Detroit or the Cleveland. But there's a reason for that .....
> > >
> > > Andrew Clarke
> > > Canberra
> > Years ago, when I regularly read Gramophone, it was not unusual for me, and others, to observe that in our collective opinion, Gramophone seemed to rate British-connected recordings too highly. I don't recall whether the "bias" was for orchestras, composers, performers or conductors or all of them. But that's what a lot of people thought. As to examples, I can't recall.. As to whether there IS a bias, why shouldn't there be? It's human nature to be chauvinistic. There's nothing wrong with that, up to a point. Whether Gramophone exceeds or exceeded that point, I have no opinion. Your defense of Gramophone reminds me of your denial of virtually any meaningful antisemitism in British high circles. Bias exists everywhere. Antisemitism exists everywhere. Why not the UK?
> There is no significant or institutional antisemitism in the United Kingdom, especially not in high circles: note the decorations awarded to the late Joe Loss, the Royal Family's favourite band leader, or the popularity of Ambrose, another band leader and Jewish refugee from the Russian Empire, also a favourite in high society. The Daily Telegraph, a London newspaper has recently published a report, plus amateur video, of a Jewish mother and child being racially abused by some thug in Stamford Hill, and there was another case of a bus containing members of a Jewish organisation being abused by young men of Middle Eastern origin. Both incidents were reported as disgraceful.
>
> There is no longer any significant bias towards British performers in The Gramophone or any other British newspaper of magazine worthy of consideration. What you and your friends "thought" to be so, may be due to a number of factors. I'll say it again: if you can cite a British review of a British performance that can only be due to bias for the 'home team' I'll be glad to consider it.
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 3:38:42 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> https://www.bbc.com/news/av/stories-59526412On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 9:23:07 PM UTC-6, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 9:56:42 AM UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> > > On 2/16/2022 4:39 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 3:49:33 PM UTC+11, ljk...@aol.com wrote:
> > > >> On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 6:52:23 PM UTC-6, Peter wrote:
> > > >>> I'm interested in the response to Hamelin's CPE Bach. I've given it just a first listen, but I'm extremely impressed. This may be the first performance of his keyboard works that really gets through to me: extremely improvisational and very light of touch. I was somewhat disappointed by Peter Serkin's traversal, and other pianists have left me even colder. But I think Hamelin has a real feeling for EB. As I think about it, what was best about his Haydn is even more appropriate for EB, like the splashy, sparkling effects and the perfectly timed pauses. To put it negatively, Hamelin downplays the affekt, which I can do without in EB, but sometimes diminishes his JH.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> But this is just a first impression.
> > > >> Hamelin's C.P.E. Bach sounds like he's battling an attack of biting insects and losing. For C.P.E. Bach on the piano, try Pletnev.
> > > >
> > > > A very stupid answer to a perfectly intelligent question. Meanwhile, nobody has responded to the main thrust of this thread, which is that the common belief about British critics being demonstrably biased in favour of British performances - which seems to be part of the US Oath of Allegiance - is increasingly not born out by the evidence. I have asked, at least twice, for people to give me concrete examples of this alleged bias, and on every occasion the response is a deafening silence.
> > > >
> > > > It's true that The Gramophone etc. aren't publishing rave reviews of the Pittsburg, the Detroit or the Cleveland. But there's a reason for that ....
> > > >
> > > > Andrew Clarke
> > > > Canberra
> > > Years ago, when I regularly read Gramophone, it was not unusual for me, and others, to observe that in our collective opinion, Gramophone seemed to rate British-connected recordings too highly. I don't recall whether the "bias" was for orchestras, composers, performers or conductors or all of them. But that's what a lot of people thought. As to examples, I can't recall. As to whether there IS a bias, why shouldn't there be? It's human nature to be chauvinistic. There's nothing wrong with that, up to a point. Whether Gramophone exceeds or exceeded that point, I have no opinion. Your defense of Gramophone reminds me of your denial of virtually any meaningful antisemitism in British high circles. Bias exists everywhere. Antisemitism exists everywhere. Why not the UK?
> > There is no significant or institutional antisemitism in the United Kingdom, especially not in high circles: note the decorations awarded to the late Joe Loss, the Royal Family's favourite band leader, or the popularity of Ambrose, another band leader and Jewish refugee from the Russian Empire, also a favourite in high society. The Daily Telegraph, a London newspaper has recently published a report, plus amateur video, of a Jewish mother and child being racially abused by some thug in Stamford Hill, and there was another case of a bus containing members of a Jewish organisation being abused by young men of Middle Eastern origin. Both incidents were reported as disgraceful.
> >
> > There is no longer any significant bias towards British performers in The Gramophone or any other British newspaper of magazine worthy of consideration. What you and your friends "thought" to be so, may be due to a number of factors. I'll say it again: if you can cite a British review of a British performance that can only be due to bias for the 'home team' I'll be glad to consider it.
> >
> > Andrew Clarke
> > Canberra

There is no significant or institutional antisemitism in the United Kingdom, especially not in high circles: note the decorations awarded to the late Joe Loss, the Royal Family's favourite band leader, or the popularity of Ambrose, another band leader and Jewish refugee from the Russian Empire, also a favourite in high society. The Daily Telegraph, a London newspaper has recently published a report, plus amateur video, of a Jewish mother and child being racially abused by some thug in Stamford Hill, and there was another case of a bus containing members of a Jewish organisation being abused by young men of Middle Eastern origin. Both incidents were reported as disgraceful. On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 3:38:42 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> https://www.bbc.com/news/av/stories-59526412

And what of then head of the Labour Party Jeremy Corbyn's response to that blatantly antisemitic mural in London? Is Corbyn not a person in a "high circle"?

On 2/17/2022 4:52 PM, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> There is no significant or institutional antisemitism in the United Kingdom, especially not in high circles: note the decorations awarded to the late Joe Loss, the Royal Family's favourite band leader, or the popularity of Ambrose, another band leader and Jewish refugee from the Russian Empire, also a favourite in high society. The Daily Telegraph, a London newspaper has recently published a report, plus amateur video, of a Jewish mother and child being racially abused by some thug in Stamford Hill, and there was another case of a bus containing members of a Jewish organisation being abused by young men of Middle Eastern origin. Both incidents were reported as disgraceful. On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 3:38:42 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Kart wrote:
>> https://www.bbc.com/news/av/stories-59526412
>
> And what of then head of the Labour Party Jeremy Corbyn's response to that blatantly antisemitic mural in London? Is Corbyn not a person in a "high circle"?
>

Andrew has his own definition of "significant" and "institutional" such that his statement is a tautology. Fairly common antisemitic acts in Stamford Green, where my daughter-in-law is from, apparently don't rise to a level of concern. I think it may be a matter of one's instincts. On the one hand, there is a natural tendency to deny flaws in one's own; to be in denial. OTOH, a member of a historically persecuted group may not be able to even conceive of the absence of prejudice. Witness runner the runner who was excluded from the Olympics because of a positive marijuana test, while Valieva was (temporarily) allowed to skate. She is convinced it is because she is black and Valieva is white. I don't think so (there are other circumstances to explain the difference), but I understand where she is coming from.

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 8:52:39 AM UTC+11, ljk...@aol.com wrote:
> There is no significant or institutional antisemitism in the United Kingdom, especially not in high circles: note the decorations awarded to the late Joe Loss, the Royal Family's favourite band leader, or the popularity of Ambrose, another band leader and Jewish refugee from the Russian Empire, also a favourite in high society. The Daily Telegraph, a London newspaper has recently published a report, plus amateur video, of a Jewish mother and child being racially abused by some thug in Stamford Hill, and there was another case of a bus containing members of a Jewish organisation being abused by young men of Middle Eastern origin. Both incidents were reported as disgraceful. On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 3:38:42 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> > https://www.bbc.com/news/av/stories-59526412
> And what of then head of the Labour Party Jeremy Corbyn's response to that blatantly antisemitic mural in London? Is Corbyn not a person in a "high circle"?

He is not a member of a high circle in the sense of an establishment or elite, he is a member of the House of Commons representing the constituency of Islington North, a partly gentrified inner city electorate in the East End of London. He belongs to the Left wing of the Labour Party of Great Britain and he is opposed to the Israeli occupation - as he sees it - of Arab territories. His extreme views on this matter - and others - are why he is no longer the Leader of the Opposition and potentially Prime Minister.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 9:31:30 AM UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 2/17/2022 4:52 PM, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> > There is no significant or institutional antisemitism in the United Kingdom, especially not in high circles: note the decorations awarded to the late Joe Loss, the Royal Family's favourite band leader, or the popularity of Ambrose, another band leader and Jewish refugee from the Russian Empire, also a favourite in high society. The Daily Telegraph, a London newspaper has recently published a report, plus amateur video, of a Jewish mother and child being racially abused by some thug in Stamford Hill, and there was another case of a bus containing members of a Jewish organisation being abused by young men of Middle Eastern origin. Both incidents were reported as disgraceful. On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 3:38:42 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> >> https://www.bbc.com/news/av/stories-59526412
> >
> > And what of then head of the Labour Party Jeremy Corbyn's response to that blatantly antisemitic mural in London? Is Corbyn not a person in a "high circle"?
> >
> Andrew has his own definition of "significant" and "institutional" such that his statement is a tautology. Fairly common antisemitic acts in Stamford Green, where my daughter-in-law is from, apparently don't rise to a level of concern. I think it may be a matter of one's instincts. On the one hand, there is a natural tendency to deny flaws in one's own; to be in denial. OTOH, a member of a historically persecuted group may not be able to even conceive of the absence of prejudice. Witness runner the runner who was excluded from the Olympics because of a positive marijuana test, while Valieva was (temporarily) allowed to skate. She is convinced it is because she is black and Valieva is white. I don't think so (there are other circumstances to explain the difference), but I understand where she is coming from.

As I have written before, Stamford Hill has its own problems which are hardly typical of the rest of the United Kingdom, any more than the old Lower East Side of Manhattan - which had similar problems - was representative of the USA. The British population as a whole treats antisemitism with the contempt it deserves.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On 2/17/2022 6:45 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 9:31:30 AM UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 2/17/2022 4:52 PM, Lawrence Kart wrote:
>>> There is no significant or institutional antisemitism in the United Kingdom, especially not in high circles: note the decorations awarded to the late Joe Loss, the Royal Family's favourite band leader, or the popularity of Ambrose, another band leader and Jewish refugee from the Russian Empire, also a favourite in high society. The Daily Telegraph, a London newspaper has recently published a report, plus amateur video, of a Jewish mother and child being racially abused by some thug in Stamford Hill, and there was another case of a bus containing members of a Jewish organisation being abused by young men of Middle Eastern origin. Both incidents were reported as disgraceful. On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 3:38:42 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Kart wrote:
>>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/av/stories-59526412
>>>
>>> And what of then head of the Labour Party Jeremy Corbyn's response to that blatantly antisemitic mural in London? Is Corbyn not a person in a "high circle"?
>>>
>> Andrew has his own definition of "significant" and "institutional" such that his statement is a tautology. Fairly common antisemitic acts in Stamford Green, where my daughter-in-law is from, apparently don't rise to a level of concern. I think it may be a matter of one's instincts. On the one hand, there is a natural tendency to deny flaws in one's own; to be in denial. OTOH, a member of a historically persecuted group may not be able to even conceive of the absence of prejudice. Witness runner the runner who was excluded from the Olympics because of a positive marijuana test, while Valieva was (temporarily) allowed to skate. She is convinced it is because she is black and Valieva is white. I don't think so (there are other circumstances to explain the difference), but I understand where she is coming from.
>
> As I have written before, Stamford Hill has its own problems which are hardly typical of the rest of the United Kingdom, any more than the old Lower East Side of Manhattan - which had similar problems - was representative of the USA. The British population as a whole treats antisemitism with the contempt it deserves.

>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

So there's a little anti-semitsm here, and a little there, and a little rabid anti-zionism (not to be confused with antisemitism) among a notable politician and at least some of his supporters, but it's not significant, and not institutional. OK. I guess you are saying, in code, that only blacks and muslims in GBR are antisemitic and I suppose that they are not proper citizens of the UK.

I'm not sure why you are so comforted by your own description of anti-semitism in the UK.

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:16:01 AM UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:

> So there's a little anti-semitsm here, and a little there, and a little rabid anti-zionism (not to be confused with antisemitism) among a notable politician and at least some of his supporters, but it's not significant, and not institutional. OK. I guess you are saying, in code, that only blacks and muslims in GBR are antisemitic and I suppose that they are not proper citizens of the UK.
>
> I'm not sure why you are so comforted by your own description of anti-semitism in the UK.

I'm not comforted by anybody's description of antisemitism anywhere. I have never mentioned blacks in the UK - how is the Charedi community in East St Louis getting on these days? -. and as you know I have more than a passing interest in Charedi Judaism.

Meanwhile, why isn't the Detroit Symphony Orchestra getting rave reviews in The Gramophone?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Meanwhile, why isn't the Detroit
> Symphony Orchestra getting rave
> reviews in The Gramophone?
>

Is it even getting rave
reviews in the Detroit
Free Press?

dk

On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 3:46:05 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> The British population as a
> whole treats antisemitism
> with the contempt it deserves.

Does it also treat Jews with
the respect they deserve?
Contempt for antisemitism
leaves me cold.

dk

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 1:22:05 PM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 3:46:05 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > The British population as a
> > whole treats antisemitism
> > with the contempt it deserves.
> Does it also treat Jews with
> the respect they deserve?
> Contempt for antisemitism
> leaves me cold.
>
> dk

If I answered your question in the affirmative, I dare say there would would be another leading question and then another and another. There's this presupposition that antisemitism is endemic in the "British Establishment" - which of course begs the question that there *is* a British Establishment - and no evidence that I can provide is going to shake that belief. It is, to put it bluntly, an irrational and unshakeable prejudice.

There is no significant amount of antisemitism in Britain. Isolated incidents in Stamford Hill or Tottenham are no evidence to the contrary. There's no consistent evidence of pro-British bias in British music reviewers, but then however much evidence I produce, it will still keep cropping up because it is also, to put it bluntly, an irrational and unshakeable prejudice.

So why isn't the Detroit Symphony Orchestra getting rave reviews in the British musical press?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 3:13:20 AM UTC-5, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Meanwhile, why isn't the Detroit
> Symphony Orchestra getting rave
> reviews in The Gramophone?
>

Is it even getting rave
reviews in the Detroit
Free Press?

dk

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 8:07:20 PM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 3:13:20 AM UTC-5, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > Meanwhile, why isn't the Detroit
> > Symphony Orchestra getting rave
> > reviews in The Gramophone?
> >
>
> Is it even getting rave
> reviews in the Detroit
> Free Press?
>
> dk

Is it making any recordings? How is it going in terms of endowments? Could it simply disappear?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 5:44:05 AM UTC-5, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 8:07:20 PM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 3:13:20 AM UTC-5, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > Meanwhile, why isn't the Detroit
> > > Symphony Orchestra getting rave
> > > reviews in The Gramophone?
> > >
> >
> > Is it even getting rave
> > reviews in the Detroit
> > Free Press?
>
> Is it making any recordings?

I hope not.

dk

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 5:44:05 AM UTC-5, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 8:07:20 PM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 3:13:20 AM UTC-5, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > Meanwhile, why isn't the Detroit
> > > Symphony Orchestra getting rave
> > > reviews in The Gramophone?
> > >
> >
> > Is it even getting rave
> > reviews in the Detroit
> > Free Press?
>
> Is it making any recordings?
> How is it going in terms of
> endowments? Could it
> simply disappear?

https://www.youtube.com/c/detroitsymphony

dk

On 2/18/2022 3:13 AM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 1:22:05 PM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 3:46:05 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> The British population as a
>>> whole treats antisemitism
>>> with the contempt it deserves.
>> Does it also treat Jews with
>> the respect they deserve?
>> Contempt for antisemitism
>> leaves me cold.
>>
>> dk
>
> If I answered your question in the affirmative, I dare say there would would be another leading question and then another and another. There's this presupposition that antisemitism is endemic in the "British Establishment" - which of course begs the question that there *is* a British Establishment - and no evidence that I can provide is going to shake that belief. It is, to put it bluntly, an irrational and unshakeable prejudice.
>
> There is no significant amount of antisemitism in Britain. Isolated incidents in Stamford Hill or Tottenham are no evidence to the contrary. There's no consistent evidence of pro-British bias in British music reviewers, but then however much evidence I produce, it will still keep cropping up because it is also, to put it bluntly, an irrational and unshakeable prejudice.
>
> So why isn't the Detroit Symphony Orchestra getting rave reviews in the British musical press?
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra
>
>
The flu is endemic. It is always with us, but it is not a huge problem in that most people recover and not many die from it. The families of those who die from the flu probably consider it to be serious. I believe antisemitism is endemic. The fact that it exists in places where there are hardly any Jews kind of illustrates this. The "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is published and read in Japan. Surely you now that a few example of successful, accepted Jews in the UK serves only to prove the level of antisemitism is below that of Nazi Germany. A "story" I've shared before - I don't remember who said it. When they were in college at City College of N.Y. in the 40s, you frequently heard students saying things like, "All the best professors are Jewish," or, "Boy aren't those Jewish teachers great." The fact is they were, because only those scholars who were so excellent could get through the quota system that limited hiring of Jews at that time. The existence of Jewish professors in no way suggests the absence of antisemitism.
I don't think antisemitism is huge problem in the UK either. I think your efforts to debunk it are over the top, in denial perhaps for some reason, and evidence-free.