https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/feb/20/how-is-this-classical-music-composers-fury-at-grammys-shortlist

On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 2:24:54 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
> https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/feb/20/how-is-this-classical-music-composers-fury-at-grammys-shortlist

Sour grapes.

dk

On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 2:24:54 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
> https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/feb/20/how-is-this-classical-music-composers-fury-at-grammys-shortlist

And how is this "classical music" ?!?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7JFAAgwMWo

dk

Il se trouve que Dan Koren a formulé :
> And how is this "classical music" ?!?

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7JFAAgwMWo

A false note at 7'50...

On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 7:33:41 PM UTC-5, MELMOTH wrote:
> Il se trouve que Dan Koren a formulé :
> > And how is this "classical music" ?!?
>
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7JFAAgwMWo
> A false note at 7'50...

False ears from the
very beginning! ;-)

dk

On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 4:05:22 PM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 2:24:54 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
> > https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/feb/20/how-is-this-classical-music-composers-fury-at-grammys-shortlist
> And how is this "classical music" ?!?
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7JFAAgwMWo
>
> dk

Some see a great continuum, some see a great rift.

I use genre codes in my database -- not because they are perfect, rather because they are useful.

On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 6:51:35 PM UTC-5, number_six wrote:
> On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 4:05:22 PM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 2:24:54 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
> > > https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/feb/20/how-is-this-classical-music-composers-fury-at-grammys-shortlist
> > And how is this "classical music" ?!?
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7JFAAgwMWo
>
> Some see a great continuum, some see a great rift.
>

What matters is what one hears, not what one sees.

dk

On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 4:39:18 PM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 6:51:35 PM UTC-5, number_six wrote:
> > On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 4:05:22 PM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 2:24:54 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
> > > > https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/feb/20/how-is-this-classical-music-composers-fury-at-grammys-shortlist
> > > And how is this "classical music" ?!?
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7JFAAgwMWo
> >
> > Some see a great continuum, some see a great rift.
> >
> What matters is what one hears, not what one sees.
>
> dk
I'm fine with that verb substitution; the construct remains.

The lumpers and the splitters are very seldom reconciled.

On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 8:29:39 PM UTC-5, number_six wrote:
> On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 4:39:18 PM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 6:51:35 PM UTC-5, number_six wrote:
> > > On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 4:05:22 PM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 2:24:54 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
> > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/feb/20/how-is-this-classical-music-composers-fury-at-grammys-shortlist
> > > > And how is this "classical music" ?!?
> > > >
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7JFAAgwMWo
> > >
> > > Some see a great continuum, some see a great rift.
> > >
> > What matters is what one hears, not what one sees.
>
> I'm fine with that verb substitution; the construct remains.
>
> The lumpers and the splitters are very seldom reconciled.

How about looking at the matter from a different POV?

I hear far more of a continuum between classical and
jazz than between classical and the 20th century and
contemporary new "classical". This is a different POV
than "lumpers" and "splitters".

I also hear very little continuum between late 19th
century German music and late 19th and early 20th
centuries French, Italian, Spanish and Latin American
music. Albeniz and Wagner clearly did not drink from
the same source.

dk

On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 5:36:56 PM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 8:29:39 PM UTC-5, number_six wrote:
> > On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 4:39:18 PM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 6:51:35 PM UTC-5, number_six wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 4:05:22 PM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 2:24:54 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
> > > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/feb/20/how-is-this-classical-music-composers-fury-at-grammys-shortlist
> > > > > And how is this "classical music" ?!?
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7JFAAgwMWo
> > > >
> > > > Some see a great continuum, some see a great rift.
> > > >
> > > What matters is what one hears, not what one sees.
> >
> > I'm fine with that verb substitution; the construct remains.
> >
> > The lumpers and the splitters are very seldom reconciled.
> How about looking at the matter from a different POV?
>
> I hear far more of a continuum between classical and
> jazz than between classical and the 20th century and
> contemporary new "classical". This is a different POV
> than "lumpers" and "splitters".
>
> I also hear very little continuum between late 19th
> century German music and late 19th and early 20th
> centuries French, Italian, Spanish and Latin American
> music. Albeniz and Wagner clearly did not drink from
> the same source.
>
> dk
In broad terms, I agree in some measure with your comment re Albeniz and Wagner.

You could say the same about Telemann and Tarrega.

In language, the shared lineage of Slavic, Germanic, and Romance tongues is very real, though they sound so very different.

In the language of music, the intertwining of those traditions -- and others -- is equally real, but composition, improvisation, and performance -- as with speech -- have radiated out to branches that often sound unrelated.

With Debussy and Wagner, I think some overlap or shared wellspring is more readily heard than in your example.

For what it's worth, Stockhausen is not coded CL in my database -- but Albeniz and Wagner are...

In article <b262c9b8-8f10-46a1-ab60-ee181b87ad5fn@googlegroups.com>,
number_six <cyberiade@hotmail.com> wrote:
>For what it's worth, Stockhausen is not coded CL in my database
>-- but Albeniz and Wagner are...

I have the category "modern" from when I created the web site about
30 years ago... seems plenty awkward itself these days.

"New music" seems to be a term more people appreciate these days,
and sort of the nature of it is bringing together various strands
of music... jazz & classical being especially prominent in that.
There's e.g. pop strands in new music too, though... seeing somewhat
more of it.

On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 9:39:00 PM UTC-5, number_six wrote:
> On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 5:36:56 PM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 8:29:39 PM UTC-5, number_six wrote:
> > > On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 4:39:18 PM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 6:51:35 PM UTC-5, number_six wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 4:05:22 PM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 2:24:54 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
> > > > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/feb/20/how-is-this-classical-music-composers-fury-at-grammys-shortlist
> > > > > > And how is this "classical music" ?!?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7JFAAgwMWo
> > > > >
> > > > > Some see a great continuum, some see a great rift.
> > > > >
> > > > What matters is what one hears, not what one sees.
> > >
> > > I'm fine with that verb substitution; the construct remains.
> > >
> > > The lumpers and the splitters are very seldom reconciled.
> > How about looking at the matter from a different POV?
> >
> > I hear far more of a continuum between classical and
> > jazz than between classical and the 20th century and
> > contemporary new "classical". This is a different POV
> > than "lumpers" and "splitters".
> >
> > I also hear very little continuum between late 19th
> > century German music and late 19th and early 20th
> > centuries French, Italian, Spanish and Latin American
> > music. Albeniz and Wagner clearly did not drink from
> > the same source.
>
> In broad terms, I agree in some measure
> with your comment re Albeniz and Wagner.

Thank you! It makes me feel a little
more sane than I would otherwise! ;-)

> You could say the same about
> Telemann and Tarrega.

Certainly! Needless to say, I very
much prefer the latter to the
former.

> In language, the shared lineage of
> Slavic, Germanic, and Romance
> tongues is very real, though they
> sound so very different.

You lost me here.

> In the language of music, the intertwining
> of those traditions -- and others -- is equally
> real, but composition, improvisation, and
> performance -- as with speech -- have
> radiated out to branches that often
> sound unrelated.

"Radiated" implies assumptions about
evolution and process that do not seem
entirely obvious to me.

> With Debussy and Wagner, I think some
> overlap or shared wellspring is more
> readily heard than in your example.

I picked my example very carefully! ;-)

> For what it's worth, Stockhausen is not
> coded CL in my database -- but Albeniz
> and Wagner are...

Good for you! ;)

dk

On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 6:44:17 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <b262c9b8-8f10-46a1...@googlegroups.com>,
> number_six <cybe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >For what it's worth, Stockhausen is not coded CL in my database
> >-- but Albeniz and Wagner are...
> I have the category "modern" from when I created the web site about
> 30 years ago... seems plenty awkward itself these days.
>
> "New music" seems to be a term more people appreciate these days,
> and sort of the nature of it is bringing together various strands
> of music... jazz & classical being especially prominent in that.
> There's e.g. pop strands in new music too, though... seeing somewhat
> more of it.

Yes, some of that "new music" is getting pretty long in the tooth.

I like Gunther Schuller's term "third stream," but it requires a jazz element that in new music is sometimes but not always present.

So for Antheil or Adams, Berio or Boulez, Cage or Carter, etc., I just call it NEW -- no matter how old it may be!

The Grammys, needless to say, didn't ask RMCR for guidance as to categories and nominees.

In article <07eb8f4c-9411-43ef-be93-e411303bbeffn@googlegroups.com>,
number_six <cyberiade@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I like Gunther Schuller's term "third stream," but it requires a jazz
>element that in new music is sometimes but not always present.

I think people tend to see "third stream" as more specific these
days, usually described as a particular blend from Schuller &
associates, but I agree that it was a similar early ethos to what
one finds in new music, if not in sound per se....

In article <sv1ofr$dcv$1@hope.eyrie.org>,
Todd M. McComb <mccomb@medieval.org> wrote:
>I think people tend to see "third stream" as more specific these
>days, usually described as a particular blend from Schuller &
>associates, but I agree that it was a similar early ethos to what
>one finds in new music, if not in sound per se....

More specifically, the AACM composers from around the same period,
also very classically minded in their own way, didn't embrace the
term, so that's a reason it didn't catch on more broadly.

On Mon, 21 Feb 2022, Dan Koren wrote:

> I also hear very little continuum between late 19th
> century German music and late 19th and early 20th
> centuries French, Italian, Spanish and Latin American
> music. Albeniz and Wagner clearly did not drink from
> the same source.
>
> dk

Not in any music I've heard, but
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merlin_(Alb%C3%A9niz)
refers to Wagnerian influences on this unfinished opera. I have not
heard the work, so I don't know if this refers to the actual music
or just the musical structure.

By the way, "in collaboration with Money-Coutts (heir to a banking fortune"
(from that article) seems like a perfect name!
--
Al Eisner

On Tuesday, February 22, 2022 at 5:12:16 PM UTC-5, Al Eisner wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Feb 2022, Dan Koren wrote:
>
> > I also hear very little continuum between late 19th
> > century German music and late 19th and early 20th
> > centuries French, Italian, Spanish and Latin American
> > music. Albeniz and Wagner clearly did not drink from
> > the same source.
> >
> Not in any music I've heard, but
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merlin_(Alb%C3%A9niz)
> refers to Wagnerian influences on this unfinished opera. I have not
> heard the work, so I don't know if this refers to the actual music
> or just the musical structure.

"Influence" on unfinished works
is meaningless. Not to mention
that not completing the opera
raises questions about which
factors led to it. Could it be
that IA's inspiration was
poisoned by Wagnerian
influences? Augmented
fourths sound nauseating.

dk

On Tue, 22 Feb 2022, Dan Koren wrote:

> On Tuesday, February 22, 2022 at 5:12:16 PM UTC-5, Al Eisner wrote:
>> On Mon, 21 Feb 2022, Dan Koren wrote:
>>
>>> I also hear very little continuum between late 19th
>>> century German music and late 19th and early 20th
>>> centuries French, Italian, Spanish and Latin American
>>> music. Albeniz and Wagner clearly did not drink from
>>> the same source.
>>>
>> Not in any music I've heard, but
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merlin_(Alb%C3%A9niz)
>> refers to Wagnerian influences on this unfinished opera. I have not
>> heard the work, so I don't know if this refers to the actual music
>> or just the musical structure.
>
> "Influence" on unfinished works
> is meaningless. Not to mention
> that not completing the opera
> raises questions about which
> factors led to it. Could it be
> that IA's inspiration was
> poisoned by Wagnerian
> influences? Augmented
> fourths sound nauseating.
>
> dk

Except I was apparently mistaken: the opera was completed. Sorry
about any digestive problems.
--
Al Eisner

On Tue, 22 Feb 2022, Al Eisner wrote:

> On Tue, 22 Feb 2022, Dan Koren wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, February 22, 2022 at 5:12:16 PM UTC-5, Al Eisner wrote:
>>> On Mon, 21 Feb 2022, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>
>>>> I also hear very little continuum between late 19th
>>>> century German music and late 19th and early 20th
>>>> centuries French, Italian, Spanish and Latin American
>>>> music. Albeniz and Wagner clearly did not drink from
>>>> the same source.
>>>>
>>> Not in any music I've heard, but
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merlin_(Alb%C3%A9niz)
>>> refers to Wagnerian influences on this unfinished opera. I have not
>>> heard the work, so I don't know if this refers to the actual music
>>> or just the musical structure.
>>
>> "Influence" on unfinished works
>> is meaningless. Not to mention
>> that not completing the opera
>> raises questions about which
>> factors led to it. Could it be
>> that IA's inspiration was
>> poisoned by Wagnerian
>> influences? Augmented
>> fourths sound nauseating.
>>
>> dk
>
> Except I was apparently mistaken: the opera was completed. Sorry
> about any digestive problems.

Seriously: it's all on youtube,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUOQa-QoDRI
It was written and performed in some variety of old English - I think.

I listened just to the prelude, which does seem to have some Wagnerian
influence, also sometimes more French. It does not much resemble Iberia.
--
Al Eisner

On Tuesday, February 22, 2022 at 6:58:01 PM UTC-5, Al Eisner wrote:
>
> Except I was apparently mistaken:
> the opera was completed.

Are you referring to "Merlin"
or to "Lancelot"? The former
was completed, the latter
was not. And "Guinevere"
wasn't even sketched.

In any case, what one hears
sounds more like Frenchified
Wagner influence similar to
Franck or d'Indy, rather than
a direct Wagner influence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L5_ru2f1iE

Needless to say, this isn't
among Albeniz' successes.

dk

On Tuesday, February 22, 2022 at 7:35:37 PM UTC-5, Al Eisner wrote:
>
> I listened just to the prelude, which
> does seem to have some Wagnerian
> influence, also sometimes more French.

Franck/D'Indy.

> It does not much resemble Iberia.

Duh!

dk

On Tue, 22 Feb 2022, Dan Koren wrote:

> On Tuesday, February 22, 2022 at 7:35:37 PM UTC-5, Al Eisner wrote:
>>
>> I listened just to the prelude, which
>> does seem to have some Wagnerian
>> influence, also sometimes more French.
>
> Franck/D'Indy.

Yes, Franck was what I most had in mind (although sometimes it seemed more
direct). but that is still a link to Wagner, not diametrically opposite.

Who knows, maybe in another century it can still catch on.
--
Al Eisner

On Tuesday, February 22, 2022 at 6:27:19 PM UTC-8, Al Eisner wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Feb 2022, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 22, 2022 at 7:35:37 PM UTC-5, Al Eisner wrote:
> >>
> >> I listened just to the prelude, which
> >> does seem to have some Wagnerian
> >> influence, also sometimes more French.
> >
> > Franck/D'Indy.
> Yes, Franck was what I most had in mind (although sometimes it seemed more
> direct). but that is still a link to Wagner, not diametrically opposite.
>
> Who knows, maybe in another century it can still catch on.
> --
> Al Eisner

Perhaps they (Albeniz /Wagner) are closer than they sound.

There, succinctly, is the statement I only meandered towards, in analogizing, upthread, the tree of languages to the tree of musical expression.

On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 7:14:55 PM UTC-5, number_six wrote:
>
> Perhaps they (Albeniz /Wagner)
> are closer than they sound.
>

Care to elaborate? I hope
you can use arguments
clearer than "scotch is
really like wine".

dk

On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 5:34:51 PM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 7:14:55 PM UTC-5, number_six wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps they (Albeniz /Wagner)
> > are closer than they sound.
> >
> Care to elaborate? I hope
> you can use arguments
> clearer than "scotch is
> really like wine".
>
> dk

Sure, I'll try again. First, please look at the text (re language) that you trimmed from my last post.

Earlier, you asked me to consider another POV. Now I must ask you to do the same.

We were both looking at the taxonomy of music, but on different time scales.

Yes, Iberia interrelates more closely with North Africa (pun intended) than does Germany; Germany interrelates more closely with Anatolia than does Spain.

Albeniz' aesthetic is more directly linked than Wagner's to the implications of Tours and Toledo; Wagner's aesthetic is more directly linked than Albeniz' to the implications of Vikings and Vienna.

But they both partake in the sweeping panorama of a pan-Eurasian cultural core that ran goods and knowledge from Morocco to Manchuria.

It's as if they got their mail at different PO boxes run by different systems -- but those systems were linked, albeit imperfectly, but were NOT fully isolated from each other.

As I type this, I'm listening to a CD by collage masters Esplendor Geometrico -- a fitting amalgam of influences from Spain, France, Islam, Northern and Central Europe, the Balkans, etc.