On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 7:38:29 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
>
> Perhaps you should read this:
>
> https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/8968/is-it-forbidden-to-use-the-internet-on-shabbat
>
> As you see, there is plenty of
> room for more than one
> interpretations.

Can you point out which of the
principles listed below would
be violated by surfing the
internet on Sabbath?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_on_Shabbat

Thanks!

dk

On 4/3/2022 10:38 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 7:26:22 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
>> On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 6:55:34 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
>>> On 4/3/2022 9:18 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 5:52:44 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>> On 4/3/2022 8:13 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are no Jewish religious laws about Internet use.
>>>>>>>> A Rabbi's interpretation built from glueing together a
>>>>>>>> hundred split hairs does not qualify as "law" as far as
>>>>>>>> I am concerned.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is the "I" again. "You" don't get to define Judaism.
>>>>
>>>> Neither do you.
>>>>
>>> What is wrong with you? Everything I've said about Orthodox
>>> Judaism could have said if I was a Presbyterian or a Hottentot.
>> Of course. We all know (and have known for a long time) that
>> Presbyterians and Hottentots are just branches of Judaism.
>>
>>> Things have definitions.
>>
>> Of course they do. There is nothing however in the definition
>> of the internet or the way it functions that prevents one from
>> using it during weekends. Not buttons or switches to turn off
>> or on. I asked you to explain from a rabbinical point of view
>> how using the internet differs from using a Sabbath elevator
>> or a 24 hour warming plate, and you did not offer even the
>> simplest explanation.
>>> There may be gray areas in a definition, but things need
>>> to be definable.
>> Yes, they are, and yes they need to be. One still needs to
>> explain how it follows from the definition of the internet
>> (whatever that is) that it cannot or should not be used
>> on Sabbath.
>>> A reform Rabbi would have nothing to disagree with what I
>>> have said. We started this talking about orthodoxy. I have
>>> made no judgements about what is correct. You refuse to
>>> have the discussion on my terms, so there is no point in
>>> continuing. I am amazed at you obfuscation. Truly.
>> All the obfuscation is entirely in your corner. I asked a very
>> simply question, and you did not answer it. Given that there
>> is nothing in the Bible or in the Talmud about the internet,
>> and given that no "actions" are involved in using it, how is
>> surfing on internet on weekends verboten from a Halachic
>> POV? If you cannot provide yourself an explanation, can
>> you provide links and pointers to the relevant rabbies'
>> rulings?
>
> Perhaps you should read this:
>
> https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/8968/is-it-forbidden-to-use-the-internet-on-shabbat
>
> As you see, there is plenty of room for more than one
> interpretations.
>
> dk

There is no orthodox rabbi who would condone using the internet on the Sabbath barring a life threatening situation such as war or perhaps severe weather. It is true that leaving your computer and monitor on and simply viewing news or perhaps reading e-mails (without touching the keyboard) is certainly not at the same level of violation as turning the device on and using it as you would during the week, but it is still frowned on even if not absolutely prohibited.

I am unable to say any of this better than this site:

https://www.jewfaq.org/halakhah.htm

The only criticism I would is that it should say that it is talking about orthodox Judaism and what it says is largely irrelevant to other branches.

I don't think there is anything left for me to say on the subject.

On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 8:26:58 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 4/3/2022 10:38 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 7:26:22 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> >> On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 6:55:34 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>> On 4/3/2022 9:18 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> >>>>
> >>> A reform Rabbi would have nothing to disagree with what I
> >>> have said. We started this talking about orthodoxy. I have
> >>> made no judgements about what is correct. You refuse to
> >>> have the discussion on my terms, so there is no point in
> >>> continuing. I am amazed at you obfuscation. Truly.
> >>
> >> All the obfuscation is entirely in your corner. I asked a very
> >> simply question, and you did not answer it. Given that there
> >> is nothing in the Bible or in the Talmud about the internet,
> >> and given that no "actions" are involved in using it, how is
> >> surfing on internet on weekends verboten from a Halachic
> >> POV? If you cannot provide yourself an explanation, can
> >> you provide links and pointers to the relevant rabbies'
> >> rulings?
> >
> > Perhaps you should read this:
> >
> > https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/8968/is-it-forbidden-to-use-the-internet-on-shabbat
> >
> > As you see, there is plenty of room for more than one
> > interpretation.
>
> There is no orthodox rabbi who would condone using the
> internet on the Sabbath barring a life threatening situation
> such as war or perhaps severe weather. It is true that leaving
> your computer and monitor on and simply viewing news or
> perhaps reading e-mails (without touching the keyboard) is
> certainly not at the same level of violation as turning the
> device on and using it as you would during the week, but
> it is still frowned on even if not absolutely prohibited.

Fair enough, but you are still trying to wiggle your way
around my question -- which was to explain the reason
rather than merely referto authority.

> I am unable to say any of this better than this site:
>
> https://www.jewfaq.org/halakhah.htm
>
> The only criticism I would is that it should say
> that it is talking about orthodox Judaism and
> what it says is largely irrelevant to other branches.
>
> I don't think there is anything left for me to say
> on the subject.

So you don't really know and trying to hide behind
authority opinion.

There are clearly 3 issues that must be addressed:

1) Use of electricity. This is the trivial part. As far as
one can tell, prohibitions against electricity use
are related to opening and/or closig cirtcuits,
triggering sparks, and the like. None of these
apply to internet use, as long as one's network
and computer equipment are on all the time.

2) Doing "work". This is largely a matter of intent
and circumstances. Programmin for a living is
clearly "work". Is programming for fun "work"?
Is listening to Kol Nidre on Zoom "work"?

3) Causing other Jews to do "work". As pointed
out already, there is very little (if any) direct
work involved in providing internet services
or in the operation of various networks that
make up the internet.

Really the only question left open is to provide
(a) clear)er( answer to 2). What is one allowed
to do, and what is one prohibited from doing on
Sabbath. I see no reason why the presence or
the absence of the internet in the mix could
affect the answer.

As an aside, let me mention that even on the
simple use of electricity question 1) there are
different opinions even among the Orthodox
between different rabbies to indicate there is
room for interpretation and the matter is not
completely black and white.

Maybe your rabbies need a short course to
refresh their knowledge of engineering.

dk

On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 8:59:40 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
>
> There are clearly 3 issues that must be addressed:
>
> 1) Use of electricity. This is the trivial part. As far as
> one can tell, prohibitions against electricity use
> are related to opening and/or closig cirtcuits,
> triggering sparks, and the like. None of these
> apply to internet use, as long as one's network
> and computer equipment are on all the time.
>

Quoted by the Wikpedia article about using
"Electricity on Shabbat":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_on_Shabbat

"Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach rejected any
technical prohibition on electricity: "In my opinion
there is no prohibition [to use electricity] on Shabbat
or Yom Tov... There is no prohibition of Fine-tuning or
molid... (However, I [Rabbi Auerbach] am afraid that
the masses will err and turn on incandescent lights
on Sabbath, and thus I do not permit electricity
absent great need...) ... This matter requires further
analysis. ... However, the key point in my opinion is
that there is no prohibition to use electricity on Sabbath
unless the electricity causes a prohibited act like cooking
or starting a flame."[1]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Zalman_Auerbach

"Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Hebrew: שלמה זלמן אויערבאך;
July 20, 1910 – February 20, 1995) was a renowned
Orthodox Jewish rabbi, posek, and rosh yeshiva of
the Kol Torah yeshiva in Jerusalem."

Apparently even Orthodox Rabbies do not agree
completely about using electricity on Shabbat.

dk

On 4/3/2022 11:59 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 8:26:58 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 4/3/2022 10:38 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>> On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 7:26:22 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 6:55:34 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>> On 4/3/2022 9:18 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>> A reform Rabbi would have nothing to disagree with what I
>>>>> have said. We started this talking about orthodoxy. I have
>>>>> made no judgements about what is correct. You refuse to
>>>>> have the discussion on my terms, so there is no point in
>>>>> continuing. I am amazed at you obfuscation. Truly.
>>>>
>>>> All the obfuscation is entirely in your corner. I asked a very
>>>> simply question, and you did not answer it. Given that there
>>>> is nothing in the Bible or in the Talmud about the internet,
>>>> and given that no "actions" are involved in using it, how is
>>>> surfing on internet on weekends verboten from a Halachic
>>>> POV? If you cannot provide yourself an explanation, can
>>>> you provide links and pointers to the relevant rabbies'
>>>> rulings?
>>>
>>> Perhaps you should read this:
>>>
>>> https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/8968/is-it-forbidden-to-use-the-internet-on-shabbat
>>>
>>> As you see, there is plenty of room for more than one
>>> interpretation.
>>
>> There is no orthodox rabbi who would condone using the
>> internet on the Sabbath barring a life threatening situation
>> such as war or perhaps severe weather. It is true that leaving
>> your computer and monitor on and simply viewing news or
>> perhaps reading e-mails (without touching the keyboard) is
>> certainly not at the same level of violation as turning the
>> device on and using it as you would during the week, but
>> it is still frowned on even if not absolutely prohibited.
>
> Fair enough, but you are still trying to wiggle your way
> around my question -- which was to explain the reason
> rather than merely referto authority.
>
>> I am unable to say any of this better than this site:
>>
>> https://www.jewfaq.org/halakhah.htm
>>
>> The only criticism I would is that it should say
>> that it is talking about orthodox Judaism and
>> what it says is largely irrelevant to other branches.
>>
>> I don't think there is anything left for me to say
>> on the subject.
>
> So you don't really know and trying to hide behind
> authority opinion.
>
> There are clearly 3 issues that must be addressed:
>
> 1) Use of electricity. This is the trivial part. As far as
> one can tell, prohibitions against electricity use
> are related to opening and/or closig cirtcuits,
> triggering sparks, and the like. None of these
> apply to internet use, as long as one's network
> and computer equipment are on all the time.
>
> 2) Doing "work". This is largely a matter of intent
> and circumstances. Programmin for a living is
> clearly "work". Is programming for fun "work"?
> Is listening to Kol Nidre on Zoom "work"?
>
> 3) Causing other Jews to do "work". As pointed
> out already, there is very little (if any) direct
> work involved in providing internet services
> or in the operation of various networks that
> make up the internet.
>
> Really the only question left open is to provide
> (a) clear)er( answer to 2). What is one allowed
> to do, and what is one prohibited from doing on
> Sabbath. I see no reason why the presence or
> the absence of the internet in the mix could
> affect the answer.
>
> As an aside, let me mention that even on the
> simple use of electricity question 1) there are
> different opinions even among the Orthodox
> between different rabbies to indicate there is
> room for interpretation and the matter is not
> completely black and white.
>
> Maybe your rabbies need a short course to
> refresh their knowledge of engineering.
>
> dk

We are not having the same discussion. I was simply trying to describe what orthodox Judiasm is, and rather than just say, "Oh, thanks for explaining that," you decided to challenge it. You can believe what you want, but trying to force me to defend it, or analyze it in detail, or whatever you have been doing, is just bullying. I choose not to be bullied.

On 4/4/2022 4:45 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 8:59:40 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
>>
>> There are clearly 3 issues that must be addressed:
>>
>> 1) Use of electricity. This is the trivial part. As far as
>> one can tell, prohibitions against electricity use
>> are related to opening and/or closig cirtcuits,
>> triggering sparks, and the like. None of these
>> apply to internet use, as long as one's network
>> and computer equipment are on all the time.
>>
>
> Quoted by the Wikpedia article about using
> "Electricity on Shabbat":
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_on_Shabbat
>
> "Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach rejected any
> technical prohibition on electricity: "In my opinion
> there is no prohibition [to use electricity] on Shabbat
> or Yom Tov... There is no prohibition of Fine-tuning or
> molid... (However, I [Rabbi Auerbach] am afraid that
> the masses will err and turn on incandescent lights
> on Sabbath, and thus I do not permit electricity
> absent great need...) ... This matter requires further
> analysis. ... However, the key point in my opinion is
> that there is no prohibition to use electricity on Sabbath
> unless the electricity causes a prohibited act like cooking
> or starting a flame."[1]"
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Zalman_Auerbach
>
> "Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Hebrew: שלמה זלמן אויערבאך;
> July 20, 1910 – February 20, 1995) was a renowned
> Orthodox Jewish rabbi, posek, and rosh yeshiva of
> the Kol Torah yeshiva in Jerusalem."
>
> Apparently even Orthodox Rabbies do not agree
> completely about using electricity on Shabbat.
>
> dk
>

He clearly states he doesn't permit use of the interenet on the Sabbath. As I said, no orthodox rabbinic authority does. You analysis, as competent as it may be, is irrelevent. It was done my halachic authorities long ago and whether they made errors or not in their analysis, the established halachah prohibits use of the internet, except under certain circumstances like war or severe weather. Period.

On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 5:39:11 AM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 4/4/2022 4:45 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 8:59:40 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> >>
> >> There are clearly 3 issues that must be addressed:
> >>
> >> 1) Use of electricity. This is the trivial part. As far as
> >> one can tell, prohibitions against electricity use
> >> are related to opening and/or closig cirtcuits,
> >> triggering sparks, and the like. None of these
> >> apply to internet use, as long as one's network
> >> and computer equipment are on all the time.
> >>
> >
> > Quoted by the Wikpedia article about using
> > "Electricity on Shabbat":
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_on_Shabbat
> >
> > "Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach rejected any
> > technical prohibition on electricity: "In my opinion
> > there is no prohibition [to use electricity] on Shabbat
> > or Yom Tov... There is no prohibition of Fine-tuning or
> > molid... (However, I [Rabbi Auerbach] am afraid that
> > the masses will err and turn on incandescent lights
> > on Sabbath, and thus I do not permit electricity
> > absent great need...) ... This matter requires further
> > analysis. ... However, the key point in my opinion is
> > that there is no prohibition to use electricity on Sabbath
> > unless the electricity causes a prohibited act like cooking
> > or starting a flame."[1]"
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Zalman_Auerbach
> >
> > "Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Hebrew: שלמה זלמן אויערבאך;
> > July 20, 1910 – February 20, 1995) was a renowned
> > Orthodox Jewish rabbi, posek, and rosh yeshiva of
> > the Kol Torah yeshiva in Jerusalem."
> >
> > Apparently even Orthodox Rabbies do not agree
> > completely about using electricity on Shabbat.
>
> He clearly states he doesn't permit use of the interenet
> on the Sabbath. As I said, no orthodox rabbinic authority
> does.

There is no such thing as "authority", rabbinic or otherwise.

Clearly someone who states "there is no prohibition [to
use electricity] on Shabbat or Yom Tov" and then goes
on to prohibit using electricity on Shabbat because he
is "afraid that the masses will err" has no credibility.

Even the smartest person has no right to treat the
rest of humankind as idiots. It is beneath contempt.

dk

On 4/4/2022 8:48 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 5:39:11 AM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 4/4/2022 4:45 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>> On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 8:59:40 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>
>>>> There are clearly 3 issues that must be addressed:
>>>>
>>>> 1) Use of electricity. This is the trivial part. As far as
>>>> one can tell, prohibitions against electricity use
>>>> are related to opening and/or closig cirtcuits,
>>>> triggering sparks, and the like. None of these
>>>> apply to internet use, as long as one's network
>>>> and computer equipment are on all the time.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Quoted by the Wikpedia article about using
>>> "Electricity on Shabbat":
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_on_Shabbat
>>>
>>> "Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach rejected any
>>> technical prohibition on electricity: "In my opinion
>>> there is no prohibition [to use electricity] on Shabbat
>>> or Yom Tov... There is no prohibition of Fine-tuning or
>>> molid... (However, I [Rabbi Auerbach] am afraid that
>>> the masses will err and turn on incandescent lights
>>> on Sabbath, and thus I do not permit electricity
>>> absent great need...) ... This matter requires further
>>> analysis. ... However, the key point in my opinion is
>>> that there is no prohibition to use electricity on Sabbath
>>> unless the electricity causes a prohibited act like cooking
>>> or starting a flame."[1]"
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Zalman_Auerbach
>>>
>>> "Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Hebrew: שלמה זלמן אויערבאך;
>>> July 20, 1910 – February 20, 1995) was a renowned
>>> Orthodox Jewish rabbi, posek, and rosh yeshiva of
>>> the Kol Torah yeshiva in Jerusalem."
>>>
>>> Apparently even Orthodox Rabbies do not agree
>>> completely about using electricity on Shabbat.
>>
>> He clearly states he doesn't permit use of the interenet
>> on the Sabbath. As I said, no orthodox rabbinic authority
>> does.
>
> There is no such thing as "authority", rabbinic or otherwise.
>

So disingenuous. You know "authority" means, in this context, a recognized expert. Since you cited Rav Auerbach to support your point, you must consider him an authority.

> Clearly someone who states "there is no prohibition [to
> use electricity] on Shabbat or Yom Tov" and then goes
> on to prohibit using electricity on Shabbat because he
> is "afraid that the masses will err" has no credibility.
>
> Even the smartest person has no right to treat the
> rest of humankind as idiots. It is beneath contempt.
>

The concept of enacting "fences" around Torah laws is as old as the Torah itself. There fences are intended to prevent people from inadvertently violating Torah laws. These fences are considered part of the body of Halachah. It's not new. It's not deceptive. It's not dishonest. Most importantly, it's transparent. It's studied. You sound like you think you've made some great discovery of corruption. You are being ridiculous. As people who are not educated about a topic always do when they think they know something. At least I know not to get in argument about physics with a physicist.

> dk
>
>
>

In article <554ab441-0110-4c21-93e9-9a49caca200an@googlegroups.com>,
Dan Koren <dan.koren@gmail.com> wrote:
>1) Use of electricity.
>2) Doing "work".
>3) Causing other Jews to do "work".

It seems to me that having a conversation on the internet is a lot
like having a conversation on the phone, whatever people thought
of doing that prior generation thing....

(There, now I've made a stupid OT post on a subject I know nothing
about. Hazing.)

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 9:11:57 AM UTC+11, MELMOTH wrote:
> Or rec.music.koko-hates-misic

Mon cher Melmoth, I hope you will agree that among the jewels of late twentieth century French culture were the brilliant cartoons of the late Claire Bretecher. There was one in particular that was dear to my heart, a parody of a televised debate between candidates for election to the Assemblee nationale, which had me in tears of laughter.

I wonder what Mme Bretecher would have made of the discussion that appears below?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 7:23:49 AM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 4/4/2022 8:48 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 5:39:11 AM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> >> On 4/4/2022 4:45 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 8:59:40 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> There are clearly 3 issues that must be addressed:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1) Use of electricity. This is the trivial part. As far as
> >>>> one can tell, prohibitions against electricity use
> >>>> are related to opening and/or closig cirtcuits,
> >>>> triggering sparks, and the like. None of these
> >>>> apply to internet use, as long as one's network
> >>>> and computer equipment are on all the time.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Quoted by the Wikpedia article about using
> >>> "Electricity on Shabbat":
> >>>
> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_on_Shabbat
> >>>
> >>> "Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach rejected any
> >>> technical prohibition on electricity: "In my opinion
> >>> there is no prohibition [to use electricity] on Shabbat
> >>> or Yom Tov... There is no prohibition of Fine-tuning or
> >>> molid... (However, I [Rabbi Auerbach] am afraid that
> >>> the masses will err and turn on incandescent lights
> >>> on Sabbath, and thus I do not permit electricity
> >>> absent great need...) ... This matter requires further
> >>> analysis. ... However, the key point in my opinion is
> >>> that there is no prohibition to use electricity on Sabbath
> >>> unless the electricity causes a prohibited act like cooking
> >>> or starting a flame."[1]"
> >>>
> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Zalman_Auerbach
> >>>
> >>> "Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Hebrew: שלמה זלמן אויערבאך;
> >>> July 20, 1910 – February 20, 1995) was a renowned
> >>> Orthodox Jewish rabbi, posek, and rosh yeshiva of
> >>> the Kol Torah yeshiva in Jerusalem."
> >>>
> >>> Apparently even Orthodox Rabbies do not agree
> >>> completely about using electricity on Shabbat.
> >>
> >> He clearly states he doesn't permit use of the interenet
> >> on the Sabbath. As I said, no orthodox rabbinic authority
> >> does.
> >
> > There is no such thing as "authority", rabbinic or otherwise.
> >
> So disingenuous. You know "authority" means, in this context,
> a recognized expert. Since you cited Rav Auerbach to support
> your point, you must consider him an authority.

We are clearly using the term "authority" in different ways.
Authority as "domain expertise" does not imply authority
in a legal or quasi legal sense. It also does not absolve
one from review or counter review, or provide a waiver
from logic and consistency.

I quoted Auerbach to highlight the inconsistencies at the
highest level of halachic interpretations, and to show that
even amont Orthodox rabbies there are differences of
opinion, however subtle they may be. This isn't news
to you -- or is it? Conservative and Reform Judaism
have pointed out for centuries obvious logical flaws
in Orthodox literalism.

> > Clearly someone who states "there is no prohibition [to
> > use electricity] on Shabbat or Yom Tov" and then goes
> > on to prohibit using electricity on Shabbat because he
> > is "afraid that the masses will err" has no credibility.
> >
> > Even the smartest person has no right to treat the
> > rest of humankind as idiots. It is beneath contempt.
> >
> The concept of enacting "fences" around Torah laws is
> as old as the Torah itself. There fences are intended to
> prevent people from inadvertently violating Torah laws.
> These fences are considered part of the body of Halachah.

I know. It doesn't mean they are logically correct or
socially appropriate.

> It's not new. It's not deceptive. It's not dishonest. Most
> importantly, it's transparent. It's studied.

That doesn't mean it is not dishonest. The notion that
whatever is in a centuries old law or a prescription is
"what is", must be followed literally and is not open to
discussion, debate or review is in and by itself FRAUD.

To say so blatantly "there is no prohibition [to use
electricity] on Shabbat or Yom Tov" but to prohibit
it anyway so "the masses do not err" is intellectual,
logical and social FRAUD". You probably believe
rabbies are above anyone else's judgment. I do
not.

> You sound like you think you've made some great
> discovery of corruption.

The corruption has been obvious for a long time. I
did not "discover" it, and I never made such claims.

> You are being ridiculous. As people who are not
> educated about a topic always do when they think
> they know something. At least I know not to get in
> argument about physics with a physicist.

Hah! You should follow your own advice. Practice
what you preach.

dk

On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 11:57:45 AM UTC-7, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <554ab441-0110-4c21...@googlegroups.com>,
> Dan Koren <dan....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >1) Use of electricity.
> >2) Doing "work".
> >3) Causing other Jews to do "work".
>
> It seems to me that having a conversation on
> the internet is a lot like having a conversation
> on the phone, whatever people thought of
> doing that prior generation thing....

A very broken phone indeed.

> (There, now I've made a stupid OT post on
> a subject I know nothing about. Hazing.)

I don't see it this way. Everyone is entitled to
his/her/its opinions.

dk

On 4/4/2022 10:25 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 7:23:49 AM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 4/4/2022 8:48 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>> On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 5:39:11 AM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>> On 4/4/2022 4:45 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 8:59:40 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are clearly 3 issues that must be addressed:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) Use of electricity. This is the trivial part. As far as
>>>>>> one can tell, prohibitions against electricity use
>>>>>> are related to opening and/or closig cirtcuits,
>>>>>> triggering sparks, and the like. None of these
>>>>>> apply to internet use, as long as one's network
>>>>>> and computer equipment are on all the time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Quoted by the Wikpedia article about using
>>>>> "Electricity on Shabbat":
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_on_Shabbat
>>>>>
>>>>> "Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach rejected any
>>>>> technical prohibition on electricity: "In my opinion
>>>>> there is no prohibition [to use electricity] on Shabbat
>>>>> or Yom Tov... There is no prohibition of Fine-tuning or
>>>>> molid... (However, I [Rabbi Auerbach] am afraid that
>>>>> the masses will err and turn on incandescent lights
>>>>> on Sabbath, and thus I do not permit electricity
>>>>> absent great need...) ... This matter requires further
>>>>> analysis. ... However, the key point in my opinion is
>>>>> that there is no prohibition to use electricity on Sabbath
>>>>> unless the electricity causes a prohibited act like cooking
>>>>> or starting a flame."[1]"
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Zalman_Auerbach
>>>>>
>>>>> "Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Hebrew: שלמה זלמן אויערבאך;
>>>>> July 20, 1910 – February 20, 1995) was a renowned
>>>>> Orthodox Jewish rabbi, posek, and rosh yeshiva of
>>>>> the Kol Torah yeshiva in Jerusalem."
>>>>>
>>>>> Apparently even Orthodox Rabbies do not agree
>>>>> completely about using electricity on Shabbat.
>>>>
>>>> He clearly states he doesn't permit use of the interenet
>>>> on the Sabbath. As I said, no orthodox rabbinic authority
>>>> does.
>>>
>>> There is no such thing as "authority", rabbinic or otherwise.
>>>
>> So disingenuous. You know "authority" means, in this context,
>> a recognized expert. Since you cited Rav Auerbach to support
>> your point, you must consider him an authority.
>
> We are clearly using the term "authority" in different ways.
> Authority as "domain expertise" does not imply authority
> in a legal or quasi legal sense. It also does not absolve
> one from review or counter review, or provide a waiver
> from logic and consistency.
>
> I quoted Auerbach to highlight the inconsistencies at the
> highest level of halachic interpretations, and to show that
> even amont Orthodox rabbies there are differences of
> opinion, however subtle they may be. This isn't news
> to you -- or is it? Conservative and Reform Judaism
> have pointed out for centuries obvious logical flaws
> in Orthodox literalism.
>

How can the opinions of reform or conservative rabbis be of any relevance to orthodoxy? If the orthodox accepted these criticisms as valid they would become reform or conservative.

>>> Clearly someone who states "there is no prohibition [to
>>> use electricity] on Shabbat or Yom Tov" and then goes
>>> on to prohibit using electricity on Shabbat because he
>>> is "afraid that the masses will err" has no credibility.
>>>
>>> Even the smartest person has no right to treat the
>>> rest of humankind as idiots. It is beneath contempt.
>>>
>> The concept of enacting "fences" around Torah laws is
>> as old as the Torah itself. There fences are intended to
>> prevent people from inadvertently violating Torah laws.
>> These fences are considered part of the body of Halachah.
>
> I know. It doesn't mean they are logically correct or
> socially appropriate.
>

You are a broken record. I have not argued once for any particular orthodox position being correct or appropriate. Can you really not see that there is a difference between being descriptive and being judgemental?

>> It's not new. It's not deceptive. It's not dishonest. Most
>> importantly, it's transparent. It's studied.
>
> That doesn't mean it is not dishonest. The notion that
> whatever is in a centuries old law or a prescription is
> "what is", must be followed literally and is not open to
> discussion, debate or review is in and by itself FRAUD.
>

All aspect of Jewish belief are open to discussion. There is almost no such thing as heresy in Judaism.

> To say so blatantly "there is no prohibition [to use
> electricity] on Shabbat or Yom Tov" but to prohibit
> it anyway so "the masses do not err" is intellectual,
> logical and social FRAUD". You probably believe
> rabbies are above anyone else's judgment. I do
> not.
>

The reason for the "fences" is known and accepted by orthodox Jews. Nobody is compelling them to do or believe anything. It is always outsiders like you who say these crazy things. Re: Rav Auerbach, I repeat there a re zero orthodox rabbis who believe surfing the web should be a valid Sabbath activity.

>> You sound like you think you've made some great
>> discovery of corruption.
>
> The corruption has been obvious for a long time. I
> did not "discover" it, and I never made such claims.
>
>> You are being ridiculous. As people who are not
>> educated about a topic always do when they think
>> they know something. At least I know not to get in
>> argument about physics with a physicist.
>
> Hah! You should follow your own advice. Practice
> what you preach.
>

I do not debate physics with physicists.

> dk

On 4/4/2022 10:28 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 11:57:45 AM UTC-7, Todd M. McComb wrote:
>> In article <554ab441-0110-4c21...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Dan Koren <dan....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 1) Use of electricity.
>>> 2) Doing "work".
>>> 3) Causing other Jews to do "work".
>>
>> It seems to me that having a conversation on
>> the internet is a lot like having a conversation
>> on the phone, whatever people thought of
>> doing that prior generation thing....
>
> A very broken phone indeed.
>
>> (There, now I've made a stupid OT post on
>> a subject I know nothing about. Hazing.)
>

A proven by your not knowing the using a telephone is also a prohibited activity on the Sabbath.

> I don't see it this way. Everyone is entitled to
> his/her/its opinions.
>
> dk

On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 8:14:25 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 4/4/2022 10:25 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 7:23:49 AM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> >
> >> You are being ridiculous. As people who are not
> >> educated about a topic always do when they think
> >> they know something. At least I know not to get in
> >> argument about physics with a physicist.
> >
> > Hah! You should follow your own advice. Practice
> > what you preach.
>
> I do not debate physics with physicists.

You just did. Unless you do not think
electricity has anything to do with
physics. As I mentioned so many
times, I am a physicist.

dk

On 4/5/2022 12:13 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 8:14:25 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 4/4/2022 10:25 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>> On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 7:23:49 AM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>
>>>> You are being ridiculous. As people who are not
>>>> educated about a topic always do when they think
>>>> they know something. At least I know not to get in
>>>> argument about physics with a physicist.
>>>
>>> Hah! You should follow your own advice. Practice
>>> what you preach.
>>
>> I do not debate physics with physicists.
>
> You just did. Unless you do not think
> electricity has anything to do with
> physics. As I mentioned so many
> times, I am a physicist.
>
> dk
I simply related, as I understood it, a reason for the internet use (i.e. norm al use where you are not just passively looking at a screen) being prohibited. If that reason is technically wrong (as Rav Auerbach seems to say), so what? There are other reasons, which is why he still held internet use is prohibited. I don't seen your point. Yes Rabbis hold different opinions about things. So what? They also have. But through a process settled law emerges. An essential aspect of orthodox Judaism is respect for the law. A Jew not charging a Jew interest on a loan is law. It rubs me the wrong way. Being an economist, I see interest as a normal thing. The price of deferred consumption, or a reward for saving. But I will not charge you interest on a loan because it is the law, and I have CHOSEN to adhere to the law. I may think the law is stupid but I do it anyway, because I respect the process under which the law came about. And I do this even though nobody is going to throw me in jail for disobeying it.