On 6/11/22 8:03 AM, Marc S wrote:
> raymond....@gmail.com schrieb am Samstag, 11. Juni 2022 um 16:54:06 UTC+2:
>> On Sunday, 12 June 2022 at 00:20:48 UTC+10, Marc S wrote:
>>> raymond....gmail.com schrieb am Samstag, 11. Juni 2022 um 15:46:42 UTC+2:
>>>> On Saturday, 11 June 2022 at 22:24:28 UTC+10, Marc S wrote:
>>>>> raymond....gmail.com schrieb am Samstag, 11. Juni 2022 um 10:50:02 UTC+2:
>>>>>> On Saturday, 11 June 2022 at 16:51:09 UTC+10, Marc S wrote:
>>>>>>> Raymond "I am not an antisemite, but israeli killing machine blablabla" Hall... talking about the radical right... hahaha
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/covid-affects-your-memory
>>>>>> What has "antisemitism" got to do with "Israeli killing machines" ?? Maybe you can explain?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ray Hall, Taree
>>>>> Does blood libel ring a bell? You are accusing Israel of sth that it is not, and the image you paint makes Israel seem to be some kind of demonic entity that aimlessly kills people "Israeli Killing machines" wtf..
>>>> You have not explained a thing. Just a wild rant from someone who believes Israel's hands are not and could not be free of blood. Tell it to the birds, because I still await your answer. Then you can explain what is that has caused your irritation, as if I really care. In short put whatever cards you think you hold on the table, and we'll go from there. I find it rather odd that a thread on "wokeness" should invoke your "memories" such as you believe them. But maybe choosing to be unaware when it suits coincides with the likes of your ilk?
>>>>
>>>> Ray Hall, Taree
>>> I am not a jew if that is what you mean by "your ilk" btw. What a sad fuck you must be to think and talk in this manner... anyways Im out of this godforsaken place!
>> Goodbye. And ilk clearly means the looney far right, if that makes you any happier.
>>
>> Ray Hall, Taree
>
> So it is now "looney far-right" to call out antisemitism... what is wrong in your head?

So I see what you're doing, you are bringing a defense of Israel into every
thread that has a leftist subject to make a claim that it is somehow necessary
that non-leftists must support Israel, but this is quite false. Opposition to
Putin's war on anti-semitism, opposing the "woke" beatings of children in the
schools, opposition to aiding China in spying on the West, the repulsive nature of
the unanimity among Israel's supporters are some of many anti-leftist reasons to
oppose the state of Israel.

On 6/11/22 11:21 AM, Marc S wrote:
> Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 11. Juni 2022 um 20:21:12 UTC+2:
>> Steven Bornfeld schrieb am Samstag, 11. Juni 2022 um 18:13:43 UTC+2:
>>> On 6/11/2022 2:51 AM, Marc S wrote:
>>>> Raymond "I am not an antisemite, but israeli killing machine blablabla" Hall... talking about the radical right... hahaha
>>>>
>>>> https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/covid-affects-your-memory
>>> Please explain what this PARTICULAR topic has to do with Israel.
>> Please explain how you as a jew find it morally acceptable to talk to a guy who is spouting antisemitic nonsense or in this case how you as a jew would not even adress this PARTICULAR issue.
>>
>> Now to help you see things a bit more clearly: Raymond - himself carrying antisemitic thoughts - talks about the radical right. Now if you can't see this hypocrisy, I can't help you. Also Raymond shows how "leftists" (he seems to think of himself as one) are completely oblivious to their own antisemitic problem.
>
> The woke mindest of this ng is unbearable. Just read the article I posted.

You apparently claim that your partner in debate is mentally ill because
he disagrees with you on a political issue: that is a left wing tactic.
Does it take one to know one?

Funny reminder: years ago google used to try to show who usenet posters
were friends with by cataloging debating partners as "friends", with
funny results from the endless hateful one on one "cv" threads and stuff.

cheregi schrieb am Sonntag, 12. Juni 2022 um 00:56:52 UTC+2:
> On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 5:46:07 PM UTC-4, Marc S wrote:
> > cheregi schrieb am Samstag, 11. Juni 2022 um 23:03:34 UTC+2:
> > > not sure whats goin on in this thread just popping in to say i am jewish most of my extended family is in israel and yes that government absolutely is a killing machine and it is not antisemitic to say so regardless of what american conservatives with no real stake have to say about it. if you want to argue that everythings hunky dory in the idf try taking it up with the thousands upon thousands of jewish israeli leftists who routinely protest in the streets of tel aviv etc
> > It seems you don't only know nothing about what's going on in this thread, but also what situation Israel is faced with despite your extended family living in israel. Many Jews in Germany didn't realize things either - just a memo. I am not an american conservative, I am a german. If you had a better eye for details you might have noticed that already. If you are implying that you have more of an idea of what antisemitism is, just because of your jewish heritage, you are argueing from a perceived high horse in a discriminating manner. It seems you know nothing about the "original" ideas of "the left", otherwise you wouldn't talk such nonsense.
> >
> > Since you have not provided any arguments that actually indicate the IDF to be a killing machine (for example: IDF sends warning "bombs" to warn civilians to bomb away rocket-stations in Gaza) you propagate antisemitism as well. You remind me a bit of the term useful jew in regards to hamas and hezbollah and chamenei. The IDF needs to be a force to be reckoned with otherwise you probably wouldn't even be alive that you haven't grasped this is beyond comprehension for me. I am a fan of Ze'ev Jabotinsky and Menachem Brgin.
> you and several others here are clearly too bloodthirsty to be swayed by any amount of reasoned argument. i am just here because i dont like my identity to be weaponized in service of this kind of crap as though jewish opinion is monolithic. did you know albert einstein publicly decried the zionist paramilitaries as fascist thugs?

"Too bloodthirsty to be swayed by any amount of reasoned argument" ?!

Wtf? You sound like a fascist. You have not provided a single reasonable argument, yet you accuse me of not being open; while you yourself did adress any of my criticism towards you. You even talked like a fascist: "I am jewish, I have authority on antisemitism, do not listen to others!"

"As though jewish opinion is monolithic" ?!

I think one should go to "war" with jewish Holocaust-deniers, no? And such as with jews who don't even seem to recognize antisemitism.

Go shake hands with antisemites you fucking idiot.

Just thought I should add this:

Antisemites attack jews and jewish institutions all around the world because they -perceive- israel to be a killing machine that kills "innocent" "palestinians" day in, day out. Ray and cheregi propagating the image of Israel or the IDF to be a killing machine promotes global antisemitism.

And a special reminder for cheregi:

You do understand that the Irgun etc. were what made aliyah possible in the first place? You are shitting on the blood they bled, portraying them to be some "bloodthristy" people, while your family lives in israel because of their deeds. Fuck you honestly.

On Sunday, 12 June 2022 at 18:31:43 UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
> Just thought I should add this... blah blah

You are completely wrong here and Ray and others are completely right in separating the behaviour of the State of Israel from any definition of antisemitism. You're welcome to look it up in the most widely adopted definition of antisemitism which is the IHRA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_Definition_of_Antisemitism

Some may take issue with parts of it, but this is so far the pretty standard definition. Once you start calling criticism of the State of Israel "antisemitism" you render the term meaningless and all your discussions using it equally meaningless. Surely you can see that there is a distinction made between actions of a State and discrimination against the inhabitants of that state? The invasion of Ukraine was carried out by Putin's government and its army, the invasion of Poland by Hitler and his army. Surely you are not going to call all Russians and all Germans murderers or fascists or whatever because of the actions of their governments? Obviously there is always a significant opposition to the behaviour of any government. You have a choice - you either use the term "antisemitism" correctly or you (and any others who misuse the term) render the term meaningless, which is being unfair to a term which has a very significant historical meaning.

On 6/11/2022 7:45 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, 12 June 2022 at 07:03:34 UTC+10, cheregi wrote:
>> not sure whats goin on in this thread just popping in to say i am jewish most of my extended family is in israel and yes that government absolutely is a killing machine and it is not antisemitic to say so regardless of what american conservatives with no real stake have to say about it. if you want to argue that everythings hunky dory in the idf try taking it up with the thousands upon thousands of jewish israeli leftists who routinely protest in the streets of tel aviv etc
>
> Thank you for saying this. As in many countries the answer is to get the government changed. I know that a majority of Israelis are good people, but there is a distinct minority that wield disproportiate power in order to exercise their aims.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree

When you talk about "the government of Israel," are you referring to this particular incarnation, or Likud governments, Labor governments, or all governments? I also wonder if you would specify which acts, exactly, or perhaps just a sampling, qualify the "government" as a "killing machine." It occurs to me that if a country has enemies sworn to its destruction, the military being a "killing machine" might be a good thing. I wonder why you would even use the expression "killing machine" rather than some other expression, like "murderous," or "genocidal."

On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 12:36:54 AM UTC-4, Marc S wrote:
> "Too bloodthirsty to be swayed by any amount of reasoned argument" ?!
>
> Wtf? You sound like a fascist. You have not provided a single reasonable argument, yet you accuse me of not being open; while you yourself did adress any of my criticism towards you. You even talked like a fascist: "I am jewish, I have authority on antisemitism, do not listen to others!"
>
> "As though jewish opinion is monolithic" ?!
>
> I think one should go to "war" with jewish Holocaust-deniers, no? And such as with jews who don't even seem to recognize antisemitism.
>
> Go shake hands with antisemites you fucking idiot.

On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 4:38:25 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
> When you talk about "the government of Israel," are you referring to this particular incarnation, or Likud governments, Labor governments, or all governments? I also wonder if you would specify which acts, exactly, or perhaps just a sampling, qualify the "government" as a "killing machine." It occurs to me that if a country has enemies sworn to its destruction, the military being a "killing machine" might be a good thing. I wonder why you would even use the expression "killing machine" rather than some other expression, like "murderous," or "genocidal."

you are both quibbling. i came in here and stated my identity as a jew specifically for the purpose of rejecting the implication that jews 'in general' support conservative arguments like yours. i made this quite clear. any accusation of me shutting down your views or whatever is just flatly inaccurate and putting words in my mouth. another thing which should be very clear is that i used 'killing machine' specifically because that's the language somebody else used and it was obvious what was meant in that context. so you trying to spin it around as though i'm somehow only going halfway by not using some other phrase is nonsense.

anyway we both know there are dozens of well researched history books etc thoroughly documenting israeli human rights abuses, and we also both know that of course you can find some conservative historian saying no actually all of that is just propaganda or whatever. here is something just to get started. you are welcome to go through item by item and tell me why it was actually all fine. https://www.reddit.com/r/Lebanese/comments/n8znv6/mega_list_of_israeli_war_crimes_and_controversies/

at a very basic level though outside of specific incidents, i am confused about one thing: it is beyond doubt that zionists moved into palestine at a time when people were already living in palestine, and that those people already living in palestine desired to continue living in palestine. so if you believe in the right of 'a people' to defend itself, or however you want to phrase it, why does that logic not apply equally to palestinians as it does to zionists? in other words, isn't it quite clear 'who started it', originally?

On 6/12/2022 6:05 PM, cheregi wrote:
> On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 12:36:54 AM UTC-4, Marc S wrote:
>> "Too bloodthirsty to be swayed by any amount of reasoned argument" ?!
>>
>> Wtf? You sound like a fascist. You have not provided a single reasonable argument, yet you accuse me of not being open; while you yourself did adress any of my criticism towards you. You even talked like a fascist: "I am jewish, I have authority on antisemitism, do not listen to others!"
>>
>> "As though jewish opinion is monolithic" ?!
>>
>> I think one should go to "war" with jewish Holocaust-deniers, no? And such as with jews who don't even seem to recognize antisemitism.
>>
>> Go shake hands with antisemites you fucking idiot.
>
> On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 4:38:25 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
>> When you talk about "the government of Israel," are you referring to this particular incarnation, or Likud governments, Labor governments, or all governments? I also wonder if you would specify which acts, exactly, or perhaps just a sampling, qualify the "government" as a "killing machine." It occurs to me that if a country has enemies sworn to its destruction, the military being a "killing machine" might be a good thing. I wonder why you would even use the expression "killing machine" rather than some other expression, like "murderous," or "genocidal."
>
> you are both quibbling. i came in here and stated my identity as a jew specifically for the purpose of rejecting the implication that jews 'in general' support conservative arguments like yours. i made this quite clear. any accusation of me shutting down your views or whatever is just flatly inaccurate and putting words in my mouth. another thing which should be very clear is that i used 'killing machine' specifically because that's the language somebody else used and it was obvious what was meant in that context. so you trying to spin it around as though i'm somehow only going halfway by not using some other phrase is nonsense.
>
> anyway we both know there are dozens of well researched history books etc thoroughly documenting israeli human rights abuses, and we also both know that of course you can find some conservative historian saying no actually all of that is just propaganda or whatever. here is something just to get started. you are welcome to go through item by item and tell me why it was actually all fine. https://www.reddit.com/r/Lebanese/comments/n8znv6/mega_list_of_israeli_war_crimes_and_controversies/
>
> at a very basic level though outside of specific incidents, i am confused about one thing: it is beyond doubt that zionists moved into palestine at a time when people were already living in palestine, and that those people already living in palestine desired to continue living in palestine. so if you believe in the right of 'a people' to defend itself, or however you want to phrase it, why does that logic not apply equally to palestinians as it does to zionists? in other words, isn't it quite clear 'who started it', originally?

It is one thing to identify instances of abuse, which are committed by every government from time to time. It is quite another to label a government (as I asked already, which Israeli government? This one? Every one?) a "killing machine." A people which continues to vote in governments that commit widespread abuse is not innocent of that abuse.

On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 6:21:48 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
> It is one thing to identify instances of abuse, which are committed by every government from time to time. It is quite another to label a government (as I asked already, which Israeli government? This one? Every one?) a "killing machine." A people which continues to vote in governments that commit widespread abuse is not innocent of that abuse.

i was literally asked to provide 'examples of abuse', as only one part of a larger argument which you mostly ignored, and i quickly procured a fairly lengthy but obviously incomplete list. it seems that your dismissal could equally apply to any possible response i could have given, based on the question i was asked! obviously there is yet another conversation to be had about the constant daily trauma of living in the occupied territories, of losing one's family home through no fault of one's own, etc.

as for your criticism of voting... i am beyond confused. if i think my government is committing widespread abuse, it is unethical for me to try to vote in order to change things for the better? do you apply that logic in your own civic life?

as for your question 'what government', if you had followed my link you would have seen that it draws examples from even before 1948 (which is relevant to the 'government' question insofar as the israeli government valorizes or was originally composed of people from the zionist groups) through to 2015.

On 6/12/2022 6:46 PM, cheregi wrote:
> On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 6:21:48 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
>> It is one thing to identify instances of abuse, which are committed by every government from time to time. It is quite another to label a government (as I asked already, which Israeli government? This one? Every one?) a "killing machine." A people which continues to vote in governments that commit widespread abuse is not innocent of that abuse.
>
> i was literally asked to provide 'examples of abuse', as only one part of a larger argument which you mostly ignored,

It might have occurred to you that I haven't read it yet. More specifically, hadn't read it when I posted the above. I wonder why you didn't think of that?

and i quickly procured a fairly lengthy but obviously incomplete list. it seems that your dismissal could equally apply to any possible response i could have given, based on the question i was asked! obviously there is yet another conversation to be had about the constant daily trauma of living in the occupied territories, of losing one's family home through no fault of one's own, etc.
>

I haven't seen your list, but I suppose it is likely I will reject some or all of your examples. I'll get back to you on that.

> as for your criticism of voting... i am beyond confused. if i think my government is committing widespread abuse, it is unethical for me to try to vote in order to change things for the better? do you apply that logic in your own civic life?
>

I said, not suggested no such thing. But what I had in mind is that a wholesale indictment of the actions of a representative government is unavoidably an indictment of the people who elect it.
in this case, the Israeli people - specifically Jews. (I am absolving the Arabs from the responsabilty of electing a killing machine.) Why would Jews continue to elect monstrous governments following monstrous policies unless there is something wrong with Jews?

> as for your question 'what government', if you had followed my link you would have seen that it draws examples from even before 1948 (which is relevant to the 'government' question insofar as the israeli government valorizes or was originally composed of people from the zionist groups) through to 2015.

In other words, Jews.

On 6/12/2022 6:05 PM, cheregi wrote:
> On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 12:36:54 AM UTC-4, Marc S wrote:
>> "Too bloodthirsty to be swayed by any amount of reasoned argument" ?!
>>
>> Wtf? You sound like a fascist. You have not provided a single reasonable argument, yet you accuse me of not being open; while you yourself did adress any of my criticism towards you. You even talked like a fascist: "I am jewish, I have authority on antisemitism, do not listen to others!"
>>
>> "As though jewish opinion is monolithic" ?!
>>
>> I think one should go to "war" with jewish Holocaust-deniers, no? And such as with jews who don't even seem to recognize antisemitism.
>>
>> Go shake hands with antisemites you fucking idiot.
>
> On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 4:38:25 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
>> When you talk about "the government of Israel," are you referring to this particular incarnation, or Likud governments, Labor governments, or all governments? I also wonder if you would specify which acts, exactly, or perhaps just a sampling, qualify the "government" as a "killing machine." It occurs to me that if a country has enemies sworn to its destruction, the military being a "killing machine" might be a good thing. I wonder why you would even use the expression "killing machine" rather than some other expression, like "murderous," or "genocidal."
>
> you are both quibbling. i came in here and stated my identity as a jew specifically for the purpose of rejecting the implication that jews 'in general' support conservative arguments like yours. i made this quite clear. any accusation of me shutting down your views or whatever is just flatly inaccurate and putting words in my mouth. another thing which should be very clear is that i used 'killing machine' specifically because that's the language somebody else used and it was obvious what was meant in that context. so you trying to spin it around as though i'm somehow only going halfway by not using some other phrase is nonsense.
>
> anyway we both know there are dozens of well researched history books etc thoroughly documenting israeli human rights abuses, and we also both know that of course you can find some conservative historian saying no actually all of that is just propaganda or whatever. here is something just to get started. you are welcome to go through item by item and tell me why it was actually all fine. https://www.reddit.com/r/Lebanese/comments/n8znv6/mega_list_of_israeli_war_crimes_and_controversies/
>
> at a very basic level though outside of specific incidents, i am confused about one thing: it is beyond doubt that zionists moved into palestine at a time when people were already living in palestine, and that those people already living in palestine desired to continue living in palestine. so if you believe in the right of 'a people' to defend itself, or however you want to phrase it, why does that logic not apply equally to palestinians as it does to zionists? in other words, isn't it quite clear 'who started it', originally?

In other words, you reject the very concept of a Jewish people (as opposed to just a religion) with roots in the Holy Land (we need not go back to biblical times to make a territorial claim). You reject the idea that Palestine as sparsely populated at the time of the Jewish return (most of the Arabs were in what is today Jordan). And that most of those Arabs were descendants of Arabian Arabs who migrated to Palestine as workers because of the land being build up the Jews who were returning. And you will no doubt water down the Jewish claim to nationality by arguing that most of the settlers were Europeans with no modern connection to Palestine at all, ignoring that more than half the Jews of Israel are Sephardim whose roots are indisputably "Palestinian." If you hold these sorts of views there is nothing for us to talk about. We can each go and research the facts as I've laid them out here. I believe them to be true.

On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 8:11:26 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
> > as for your criticism of voting... i am beyond confused. if i think my government is committing widespread abuse, it is unethical for me to try to vote in order to change things for the better? do you apply that logic in your own civic life?
> >
> I said, not suggested no such thing. But what I had in mind is that a wholesale indictment of the actions of a representative government is unavoidably an indictment of the people who elect it.
> in this case, the Israeli people - specifically Jews. (I am absolving the Arabs from the responsabilty of electing a killing machine.) Why would Jews continue to elect monstrous governments following monstrous policies unless there is something wrong with Jews?

now it is you who is drawing out all kinds of broadly antisemitic conclusions beyond anything i said or implied. do you think the u.s. government, for example, perfectly represents the will of 'the people'? i think you and i are both sophisticated enough thinkers to understand the complexity of institutional power, vested interests of corrupt elites, decision-making behind closed doors, etc.
also, see below-

> > as for your question 'what government', if you had followed my link you would have seen that it draws examples from even before 1948 (which is relevant to the 'government' question insofar as the israeli government valorizes or was originally composed of people from the zionist groups) through to 2015.
> In other words, Jews.

well now we have wrapped back around exactly and specifically to my first response in this thread. 99% of white south africans during apartheid were christians, and christianity was used as a grounds for arguing in favor of apartheid. based on this information do we conclude that it is discriminatory towards christians to criticize apartheid south africa? of course not! why? because we understand, of course, that there were also many christians who opposed apartheid, even specifically on christian grounds. why can you not afford jews the same nuance?

another way of saying this is, if israel was truly the perfectly, genuinely representative democracy that your comment implied, and the israeli government continued its current policies, then yes, i would, without hesitation, say that ethically speaking, there is 'something wrong with' the general israeli populace... and even if this were so - i would still not be making an antisemitic comment, because 'israeli' is still not equivalent to 'jew'!

On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 8:18:07 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
> In other words, you reject the very concept of a Jewish people (as opposed to just a religion) with roots in the Holy Land (we need not go back to biblical times to make a territorial claim). You reject the idea that Palestine as sparsely populated at the time of the Jewish return (most of the Arabs were in what is today Jordan). And that most of those Arabs were descendants of Arabian Arabs who migrated to Palestine as workers because of the land being build up the Jews who were returning. And you will no doubt water down the Jewish claim to nationality by arguing that most of the settlers were Europeans with no modern connection to Palestine at all, ignoring that more than half the Jews of Israel are Sephardim whose roots are indisputably "Palestinian." If you hold these sorts of views there is nothing for us to talk about. We can each go and research the facts as I've laid them out here. I believe them to be true.

menahem ussishkin, 1930: "We must continually raise the demand that our land be returned to our possession….lf there are other inhabitants there, they must be transferred to some other place. We must take over the land. We have a greater and nobler ideal than preserving several hundred thousands of Arab fellahin."

vladimir jabotinsky, 1923: "A voluntary reconciliation with the Arabs is out of the question either now or in the future. If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison for the land, or find some rich man or benefactor who will provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else-or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempt to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not difficult, not dangerous, but IMPOSSIBLE!… Zionism is a colonization adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force. It is important… to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be able to shoot – or else I am through with playing at colonizing.."

ben zohar, biographer of ben gurion, on 'plan dalet': "In internal discussions, in instructions to his men, the Old Man [Ben-Gurion] demonstrated a clear position: it would be better that as few a number as possible of Arabs would remain in the territory of the [Jewish] state."

the 'palestinians as jordanian migrant workers' argument, by the way, comes almost entirely from joan peters' book 'from time immemorial' which so egregiously misinterprets or cherry-picks its 'evidence' that even israeli scholars on the center or right-wing do not take it seriously in the slightest.. it is only in america that anyone takes this seriously anymore. for example, peters relies on the following quote from another book on world population trends: "Medical and sanitary progress has made little headway among the Palestinian Arabs as yet, and cannot account for any considerable fall in the death-rate." here is that same quote in context: "Medical and sanitary progress, so far as it affects the personal health and customs, has made little headway among the Palestinian Arabs as yet, and cannot account for any considerable fall in the death-rate. But general administrative measures, in the region of quarantine, for example, have been designed in the light of modern knowledge and have been adequately carried out. Measures of this kind can be enforced almost overnight. … Therefore we can find in these administrative changes, brought about by the British occupation of Palestine, what is in any case a tenable explanation of the natural increase of population among Arabs."

what about the concept of a jewish people with roots in the holy land? is this a basis for a territorial claim? ok, great! let's call a u.n. meeting to redraw the borders! do you think while we are it we should let ireland and wales divvy up the whole of the british isles between them, in the absence of other celtic governing bodies? i guess the provincial government of brittany should probably get all of france too, huh. and i know archaeological evidence is scarce but the basques probably deserve at LEAST the north half of spain, right? and didn't the yamato japanese immigrate from the mainland at some point, displacing the ainu further north? and oh my gosh we hardly have any time left to do something about north and south america!

anyway to be honest i was not going to bring up the idea of ashkenazi jews as having 'no modern connection to palestine at all', but if i had, it seems your counterargument would have actually constituted support for, i guess, deportation of ashkenazis, and leaving israel as an 'ethnically sephardi' state?

On Monday, 13 June 2022 at 06:38:25 UTC+10, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 6/11/2022 7:45 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, 12 June 2022 at 07:03:34 UTC+10, cheregi wrote:
> >> not sure whats goin on in this thread just popping in to say i am jewish most of my extended family is in israel and yes that government absolutely is a killing machine and it is not antisemitic to say so regardless of what american conservatives with no real stake have to say about it. if you want to argue that everythings hunky dory in the idf try taking it up with the thousands upon thousands of jewish israeli leftists who routinely protest in the streets of tel aviv etc
> >
> > Thank you for saying this. As in many countries the answer is to get the government changed. I know that a majority of Israelis are good people, but there is a distinct minority that wield disproportiate power in order to exercise their aims.
> >
> > Ray Hall, Taree
> When you talk about "the government of Israel," are you referring to this particular incarnation, or Likud governments, Labor governments, or all governments? I also wonder if you would specify which acts, exactly, or perhaps just a sampling, qualify the "government" as a "killing machine." It occurs to me that if a country has enemies sworn to its destruction, the military being a "killing machine" might be a good thing. I wonder why you would even use the expression "killing machine" rather than some other expression, like "murderous," or "genocidal."

I would address others on this, as I have only responded to accusations being flung about wrt statements made eons ago about Israel, in a thread about "wokeness". I have no intention of engaging in an argument about semantics, or about the actions of certain Israeli governments, or participate in a long never-ending thread to suit and embellish the smug feelings of those that believe Israel is not capable of unnecessary violence and apartheid, given the wealth of facts at everyman's and his dog's disposal.

Dead and oppressed people, end up being dead and oppressed, of whatever stripe, whatever you and anyone else want to call the action of the oppressor.

Ray Hall, Taree

On 6/12/2022 9:26 PM, cheregi wrote:
> On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 8:11:26 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
>>> as for your criticism of voting... i am beyond confused. if i think my government is committing widespread abuse, it is unethical for me to try to vote in order to change things for the better? do you apply that logic in your own civic life?
>>>
>> I said, not suggested no such thing. But what I had in mind is that a wholesale indictment of the actions of a representative government is unavoidably an indictment of the people who elect it.
>> in this case, the Israeli people - specifically Jews. (I am absolving the Arabs from the responsabilty of electing a killing machine.) Why would Jews continue to elect monstrous governments following monstrous policies unless there is something wrong with Jews?
>
> now it is you who is drawing out all kinds of broadly antisemitic conclusions beyond anything i said or implied. do you think the u.s. government, for example, perfectly represents the will of 'the people'? i think you and i are both sophisticated enough thinkers to understand the complexity of institutional power, vested interests of corrupt elites, decision-making behind closed doors, etc.
> also, see below-
>
I said nothing about perfection.

>>> as for your question 'what government', if you had followed my link you would have seen that it draws examples from even before 1948 (which is relevant to the 'government' question insofar as the israeli government valorizes or was originally composed of people from the zionist groups) through to 2015.
>> In other words, Jews.
>
> well now we have wrapped back around exactly and specifically to my first response in this thread. 99% of white south africans during apartheid were christians, and christianity was used as a grounds for arguing in favor of apartheid. based on this information do we conclude that it is discriminatory towards christians to criticize apartheid south africa? of course not! why? because we understand, of course, that there were also many christians who opposed apartheid, even specifically on christian grounds. why can you not afford jews the same nuance?
>
> another way of saying this is, if israel was truly the perfectly, genuinely representative democracy that your comment implied,
I implied nothing about perfection. I am responding viscerally to your accusing Israel of being a "killing machine." And you didn't mean it is good at defending itself.

and the israeli government continued its current policies, then yes, i would, without hesitation, say that ethically speaking, there is 'something wrong with' the general israeli populace... and even if this were so - i would still not be making an antisemitic comment, because 'israeli' is still not equivalent to 'jew'!
>
> On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 8:18:07 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
>> In other words, you reject the very concept of a Jewish people (as opposed to just a religion) with roots in the Holy Land (we need not go back to biblical times to make a territorial claim). You reject the idea that Palestine as sparsely populated at the time of the Jewish return (most of the Arabs were in what is today Jordan). And that most of those Arabs were descendants of Arabian Arabs who migrated to Palestine as workers because of the land being build up the Jews who were returning. And you will no doubt water down the Jewish claim to nationality by arguing that most of the settlers were Europeans with no modern connection to Palestine at all, ignoring that more than half the Jews of Israel are Sephardim whose roots are indisputably "Palestinian." If you hold these sorts of views there is nothing for us to talk about. We can each go and research the facts as I've laid them out here. I believe them to be true.
>
> menahem ussishkin, 1930: "We must continually raise the demand that our land be returned to our possession….lf there are other inhabitants there, they must be transferred to some other place. We must take over the land. We have a greater and nobler ideal than preserving several hundred thousands of Arab fellahin."
>
Now it is you who is demanding perfection.
> vladimir jabotinsky, 1923: "A voluntary reconciliation with the Arabs is out of the question either now or in the future. If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison for the land, or find some rich man or benefactor who will provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else-or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempt to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not difficult, not dangerous, but IMPOSSIBLE!… Zionism is a colonization adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force. It is important… to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be able to shoot – or else I am through with playing at colonizing."
>
> ben zohar, biographer of ben gurion, on 'plan dalet': "In internal discussions, in instructions to his men, the Old Man [Ben-Gurion] demonstrated a clear position: it would be better that as few a number as possible of Arabs would remain in the territory of the [Jewish] state."
>
If you go on vacation and come home to find squatters in your home, you evict them. It don't think it is entirely unreasonable to view the Palestinian Arabs like that. Nevertheless the vast, vast majority of Israeli Jews want to live peacefully with the Arab citizens of Israel and with their Arab neighbors. If, somehow, tomorrow the Israelis Jews awoke with the belief that a Palestinian state would coexist peacefully with Israel, I bet 75% of Israeli Jews would support it.

> the 'palestinians as jordanian migrant workers' argument, by the way, comes almost entirely from joan peters' book 'from time immemorial' which so egregiously misinterprets or cherry-picks its 'evidence' that even israeli scholars on the center or right-wing do not take it seriously in the slightest. it is only in america that anyone takes this seriously anymore. for example, peters relies on the following quote from another book on world population trends: "Medical and sanitary progress has made little headway among the Palestinian Arabs as yet, and cannot account for any considerable fall in the death-rate." here is that same quote in context: "Medical and sanitary progress, so far as it affects the personal health and customs, has made little headway among the Palestinian Arabs as yet, and cannot account for any considerable fall in the death-rate. But general administrative measures, in the region of quarantine, for example, have been designed in the light of modern knowledge and have been adequately carried out. Measures of this kind can be enforced almost overnight. … Therefore we can find in these administrative changes, brought about by the British occupation of Palestine, what is in any case a tenable explanation of the natural increase of population among Arabs."
>
I have no idea what the preceding has to do with anything I said.
> what about the concept of a jewish people with roots in the holy land? is this a basis for a territorial claim? ok, great! let's call a u.n. meeting to redraw the borders! do you think while we are it we should let ireland and wales divvy up the whole of the british isles between them, in the absence of other celtic governing bodies? i guess the provincial government of brittany should probably get all of france too, huh. and i know archaeological evidence is scarce but the basques probably deserve at LEAST the north half of spain, right? and didn't the yamato japanese immigrate from the mainland at some point, displacing the ainu further north? and oh my gosh we hardly have any time left to do something about north and south america!
>
I have no opinion about the above. I do think it's the Native Americans got a raw deal.

> anyway to be honest i was not going to bring up the idea of ashkenazi jews as having 'no modern connection to palestine at all', but if i had, it seems your counterargument would have actually constituted support for, i guess, deportation of ashkenazis, and leaving israel as an 'ethnically sephardi' state?

No it wouldn't.
By the way, I can't find your response to my request that you list some examples showing how Israel is a "killing machine." They didn't even kill the vast majority of the Arabs who fled their homes in 1948. They just wouldn't let them back. Bombing civilians in Gaza? Nope. The Geneva Conventions recognize the right to respond to attacks from civilian areas. Occasional excessive violence against Arabs by the IDF or police? Sure.

On 6/12/2022 9:29 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, 13 June 2022 at 06:38:25 UTC+10, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 6/11/2022 7:45 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Sunday, 12 June 2022 at 07:03:34 UTC+10, cheregi wrote:
>>>> not sure whats goin on in this thread just popping in to say i am jewish most of my extended family is in israel and yes that government absolutely is a killing machine and it is not antisemitic to say so regardless of what american conservatives with no real stake have to say about it. if you want to argue that everythings hunky dory in the idf try taking it up with the thousands upon thousands of jewish israeli leftists who routinely protest in the streets of tel aviv etc
>>>
>>> Thank you for saying this. As in many countries the answer is to get the government changed. I know that a majority of Israelis are good people, but there is a distinct minority that wield disproportiate power in order to exercise their aims.
>>>
>>> Ray Hall, Taree
>> When you talk about "the government of Israel," are you referring to this particular incarnation, or Likud governments, Labor governments, or all governments? I also wonder if you would specify which acts, exactly, or perhaps just a sampling, qualify the "government" as a "killing machine." It occurs to me that if a country has enemies sworn to its destruction, the military being a "killing machine" might be a good thing. I wonder why you would even use the expression "killing machine" rather than some other expression, like "murderous," or "genocidal."
>
> I would address others on this, as I have only responded to accusations being flung about wrt statements made eons ago about Israel, in a thread about "wokeness". I have no intention of engaging in an argument about semantics, or about the actions of certain Israeli governments, or participate in a long never-ending thread to suit and embellish the smug feelings of those that believe Israel is not capable of unnecessary violence and apartheid, given the wealth of facts at everyman's and his dog's disposal.
>
> Dead and oppressed people, end up being dead and oppressed, of whatever stripe, whatever you and anyone else want to call the action of the oppressor.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree

We understand where you are coming from Ray. Thanks for clarifying.

On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 9:44:02 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
>if you go on vacation and come home to find squatters in your home, you evict them.

do you not see how an even stronger form of this same logic could trivially be applied in the exact opposite direction? if the zionists are responding to 'squatting' then aren't the palestinians responding to 'home invasion'? and you want the palestinians to agree to a peaceful coexistence confined to the garage?

and if you return to the 'jews were there first' idea i return you to the u..n. scenario, which was meant to demonstrate that groups of people have moved constantly throughout history and often occupied the same spaces as each other and it is not only nonsensical but literally impossible to assign each group its own unique parcel of land which it is 'owed' by virtue of historical connection. the fact of the matter is the vast majority of jews left palestine millennia ago for reasons totally unrelated to the modern day group called 'palestinians', and then a bunch of their distant descendants who had intermixed with many other ethnic groups moved in within the 20th century.

On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 9:44:02 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
> By the way, I can't find your response to my request that you list some examples showing how Israel is a "killing machine." They didn't even kill the vast majority of the Arabs who fled their homes in 1948. They just wouldn't let them back. Bombing civilians in Gaza? Nope. The Geneva Conventions recognize the right to respond to attacks from civilian areas. Occasional excessive violence against Arabs by the IDF or police? Sure.

at risk of repeating myself: i literally sent you a list of only the very most major examples of israel being a killing machine, and you dismissed them, as you do here again, as 'occasional excessive violence'. do i need to also tell you to look up plan dalet which i mentioned earlier, deir yassin, al faluja, iraq al manshiyya, al dawayma? no, i guess those are also just exceptions. what is your threshold? is there any amount of incidents i could list which would actually serve to change your mind about anything? moreover, what is the broader argument here - 'yes, sure, the zionists did send palestinians fleeing en masse from their homes, and the zionists did take almost all the land and confine a whole preexisting population into small areas with little if any infrastructure, and the zionists do restrict the ability of palestinians to move from place to place, and fairly often zionist police and zionist idf members commit excessive brutality which, regardless of whether it is officially government-supported or not, does continue to happen and is rightly something palestinians live in fear of, but at least israel is not a killing machine'? is this where you are headed?

On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 10:15:38 PM UTC-4, cheregi wrote:
>do i need to also tell you to look up plan dalet which i mentioned earlier, deir yassin, al faluja, iraq al manshiyya, al dawayma?

forgot to add, i mention these specific names because they are all instances where the intent was clearly to move an ethnic group off a part of the land, by spreading terror, etc., very demonstrably not just 'random' acts of momentary excess.

if you really need a long long list of specific instances of brutality, murderous and otherwise, here is an article about the NGO 'breaking the silence' : https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/08/israel-soldiers-speak-out-brutality-palestine-occupation

On 6/12/2022 10:15 PM, cheregi wrote:
> On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 9:44:02 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
>> if you go on vacation and come home to find squatters in your home, you evict them.
>
> do you not see how an even stronger form of this same logic could trivially be applied in the exact opposite direction? if the zionists are responding to 'squatting' then aren't the palestinians responding to 'home invasion'? and you want the palestinians to agree to a peaceful coexistence confined to the garage?
>
> and if you return to the 'jews were there first' idea i return you to the u.n. scenario, which was meant to demonstrate that groups of people have moved constantly throughout history and often occupied the same spaces as each other and it is not only nonsensical but literally impossible to assign each group its own unique parcel of land which it is 'owed' by virtue of historical connection. the fact of the matter is the vast majority of jews left palestine millennia ago for reasons totally unrelated to the modern day group called 'palestinians', and then a bunch of their distant descendants who had intermixed with many other ethnic groups moved in within the 20th century.
>

Yes, but this conveniently ignores the fact that Jews are not defined biologically, but by Jewish law and tradition.

> On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 9:44:02 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
>> By the way, I can't find your response to my request that you list some examples showing how Israel is a "killing machine." They didn't even kill the vast majority of the Arabs who fled their homes in 1948. They just wouldn't let them back. Bombing civilians in Gaza? Nope. The Geneva Conventions recognize the right to respond to attacks from civilian areas. Occasional excessive violence against Arabs by the IDF or police? Sure.
>
> at risk of repeating myself: i literally sent you a list of only the very most major examples of israel being a killing machine, and you dismissed them, as you do here again, as 'occasional excessive violence'.

I've told you twice now, that I didn't see it.

do i need to also tell you to look up plan dalet which i mentioned earlier, deir yassin, al faluja, iraq al manshiyya, al dawayma?

I don't know about the others but Deir Yassin is a documented fake.

Even if there were some, whatever you want to call it, excesses, atrocities even, that doesn't justify the term killing machine.

no, i guess those are also just exceptions. what is your threshold? is there any amount of incidents i could list

First you'd have to cite sources from reputable historians. No anecdotes.

which would actually serve to change your mind about anything? moreover, what is the broader argument here - 'yes, sure, the zionists did send palestinians fleeing en masse from their homes,

It is documented that Arab leaders encouraged the Palestinians to flee until the Jews were wiped out. Only the Jews it seems, after successfully defending them from wars of aggression are supposed to make concessions.

and the zionists did take almost all the land

Jordan comprises 78% of Palestine prior to its creation (Jordan's that is). The Arabs have 78% of Palestine already without the West Bank. There was a census taken around 1900 that shows, I think 400,000 Arabs in Palestine. The vast majority of these lived in what is now Jordan.

and confine a whole preexisting population into small areas with little if any infrastructure, and the zionists do restrict the ability of palestinians to move from place to place, and fairly often zionist police and zionist idf members commit excessive brutality which, regardless of whether it is officially government-supported or not, does continue to happen and is rightly something palestinians live in fear of, but at least israel is not a killing machine'? is this where you are headed?

On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 10:57:43 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
> Yes, but this conveniently ignores the fact that Jews are not defined biologically, but by Jewish law and tradition.

this does not affect my argument whatsoever.

> > On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 9:44:02 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
>I've told you twice now, that I didn't see it.

try scrolling up. earlier you mentioned noticing it.

> > On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 9:44:02 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
> It is documented that Arab leaders encouraged the Palestinians to flee until the Jews were wiped out. Only the Jews it seems, after successfully defending them from wars of aggression are supposed to make concessions.

i don't care what arab leaders said or did not say which could be misconstrued or taken out of context. seizure of land, mass killings, and rapes by zionists are also documented, and to me seem significantly more important.

> > On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 9:44:02 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
> Jordan comprises 78% of Palestine prior to its creation (Jordan's that is). The Arabs have 78% of Palestine already without the West Bank. There was a census taken around 1900 that shows, I think 400,000 Arabs in Palestine. The vast majority of these lived in what is now Jordan.

by 'the land' i clearly meant the land which is now the state of israel, which was previously home to thousands upon thousands of palestinian muslim arabs. whether you choose to lump jordan or all of the former ottoman empire together to make a percentage look nicer is not relevant to me.

> > On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 9:44:02 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
>First you'd have to cite sources from reputable historians. No anecdotes.

i don't know what more you want from me. i already sent you a detailed breakdown of the more major atrocities with extensive sources cited, and then i sent you another link to dozens and dozens of hours of direct testimony from individual idf soldiers about 'everyday' brutality. do you want a professional historian to give a seal of approval to each of those soldiers' testimony, perhaps go back to the relevant location and try to find samples of the sweat of the palestinian arbitrarily locked in a cage at a routine checkpoint for half a day for no reason? do you notice how i am not expecting the same standard of proof from you, because it would be absurd?

On 6/12/2022 11:15 PM, cheregi wrote:
> On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 10:57:43 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
>> Yes, but this conveniently ignores the fact that Jews are not defined biologically, but by Jewish law and tradition.
>
> this does not affect my argument whatsoever.
>
>>> On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 9:44:02 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
>> I've told you twice now, that I didn't see it.
>
> try scrolling up. earlier you mentioned noticing it.
>
>>> On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 9:44:02 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
>> It is documented that Arab leaders encouraged the Palestinians to flee until the Jews were wiped out. Only the Jews it seems, after successfully defending them from wars of aggression are supposed to make concessions.
>
> i don't care what arab leaders said or did not say which could be misconstrued or taken out of context. seizure of land, mass killings, and rapes by zionists are also documented, and to me seem significantly more important.
>

>>> On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 9:44:02 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
>> Jordan comprises 78% of Palestine prior to its creation (Jordan's that is). The Arabs have 78% of Palestine already without the West Bank. There was a census taken around 1900 that shows, I think 400,000 Arabs in Palestine. The vast majority of these lived in what is now Jordan.
>
> by 'the land' i clearly meant the land which is now the state of israel, which was previously home to thousands upon thousands of palestinian muslim arabs. whether you choose to lump jordan or all of the former ottoman empire together to make a percentage look nicer is not relevant to me.
>
>>> On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 9:44:02 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
>> First you'd have to cite sources from reputable historians. No anecdotes.
>
> i don't know what more you want from me.

I would like you to see a shrink, actually.

i already sent you a detailed breakdown of the more major atrocities with extensive sources cited,

None of this is from reputable historians.

and then i sent you another link to dozens and dozens of hours of direct testimony from individual idf soldiers about 'everyday' brutality. do you want a professional historian to give a seal of approval to each of those soldiers' testimony, perhaps go back to the relevant location and try to find samples of the sweat of the palestinian arbitrarily locked in a cage at a routine checkpoint for half a day for no reason? do you notice how i am not expecting the same standard of proof from you, because it would be absurd?

I have a good friend, a conspiracy theorist par excellence, who can "prove" to me all sorts of absurd things by pointing me to web sites and books that say these things are true, but they aren't. You can always find some person, book or web site to confirm your strange beliefs. Why he, or you, hold these beliefs, I couldn't say. Upbringing, paranoia, psychosis, something else, I don't know. But you, and my friend, are ridiculous.

On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 10:45:38 AM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
> None of this is from reputable historians.

this is untrue, which you would know if you had looked at the page and paid attention to who and what is cited.

On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 10:45:38 AM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
> I have a good friend, a conspiracy theorist par excellence, who can "prove" to me all sorts of absurd things by pointing me to web sites and books that say these things are true, but they aren't. You can always find some person, book or web site to confirm your strange beliefs. Why he, or you, hold these beliefs, I couldn't say. Upbringing, paranoia, psychosis, something else, I don't know. But you, and my friend, are ridiculous.

actually, your jump here to sort of generically accusing me of being crazy, i have to say, gives me a slight hope that maybe i have introduced the shadow of a seed of doubt into your mind regarding your narrative re israel/palestine. i encourage you to keep thinking critically about this issue.

On 6/13/2022 11:06 AM, cheregi wrote:
> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 10:45:38 AM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
>> None of this is from reputable historians.
>
> this is untrue, which you would know if you had looked at the page and paid attention to who and what is cited.
>
> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 10:45:38 AM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
>> I have a good friend, a conspiracy theorist par excellence, who can "prove" to me all sorts of absurd things by pointing me to web sites and books that say these things are true, but they aren't. You can always find some person, book or web site to confirm your strange beliefs. Why he, or you, hold these beliefs, I couldn't say. Upbringing, paranoia, psychosis, something else, I don't know. But you, and my friend, are ridiculous.
>
> actually, your jump here to sort of generically accusing me of being crazy, i have to say, gives me a slight hope that maybe i have introduced the shadow of a seed of doubt into your mind regarding your narrative re israel/palestine. i encourage you to keep thinking critically about this issue.

Mainstream thinking, outside the Arab world (and increasingly inside it) is that the Israelis are not simply a bunch of murderers (paraphrasing "killing machine"). You are decidedly in the minority in your attitude towards Israel. It is you who should broaden your reading and research.

Andy Evans schrieb am Sonntag, 12. Juni 2022 um 22:35:16 UTC+2:
> On Sunday, 12 June 2022 at 18:31:43 UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
> > Just thought I should add this... blah blah
>
> You are completely wrong here and Ray and others are completely right in separating the behaviour of the State of Israel from any definition of antisemitism. You're welcome to look it up in the most widely adopted definition of antisemitism which is the IHRA
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_Definition_of_Antisemitism
>
> Some may take issue with parts of it, but this is so far the pretty standard definition. Once you start calling criticism of the State of Israel "antisemitism" you render the term meaningless and all your discussions using it equally meaningless. Surely you can see that there is a distinction made between actions of a State and discrimination against the inhabitants of that state? The invasion of Ukraine was carried out by Putin's government and its army, the invasion of Poland by Hitler and his army. Surely you are not going to call all Russians and all Germans murderers or fascists or whatever because of the actions of their governments? Obviously there is always a significant opposition to the behaviour of any government. You have a choice - you either use the term "antisemitism" correctly or you (and any others who misuse the term) render the term meaningless, which is being unfair to a term which has a very significant historical meaning.

You talk with your head up in your ass. No wonder you can't taste the shit of the nonsense you are talking, since you seem to be breathing your own shit for a living.

You lack basic psychological skills even though you studied psychology. Ever heard the term "pathische Projektion" (I think the english term is "paranoid projection") ?! Probably not. Ever recognized the difference between antisemitism and racism on a pyschological level? Probably not as well, even though I posted an article on this very forum explaining the differences.

You have not presented a single piece of evidence that Israel is a "killing machine", but just accuse it of it being one. This is no criticism "Mr I studied Psychology in France", it is pure projection (Israel Killing Machine). What a fuck up you are. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitic_canard

Not discussing anything with you further, not even reading past the first few sentences until you have adressed the points I made coherently.

On Monday, 13 June 2022 at 16:27:52 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:

> Mainstream thinking, outside the Arab world (and increasingly inside it) is that the Israelis are not simply a bunch of murderers (paraphrasing "killing machine").

There is no "mainstream" thinking about the behaviour of the State of Israel. There are only widely differing views held by different political blocs. .

Andy Evans schrieb am Montag, 13. Juni 2022 um 18:26:26 UTC+2:
> On Monday, 13 June 2022 at 16:27:52 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> > Mainstream thinking, outside the Arab world (and increasingly inside it) is that the Israelis are not simply a bunch of murderers (paraphrasing "killing machine").
> There is no "mainstream" thinking about the behaviour of the State of Israel. There are only widely differing views held by different political blocs. .

You talk with your head up in your ass. No wonder you can't taste the shit of the nonsense you are talking, breathing your own shit for a living.

You have not presented a single piece of evidence that Israel is a "killing machine", but just accuse it of being one. This is no criticism "Mr I studied psychology in France", it is pure projection" (Israeli Killing Machine).. What a fuck up you are. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitic_canard

You probably don't even know the differences between antisemitism and racism on a psychological level even though I posted an article on this very forum about it.

Not discussing anything further with you, not even reading past the first few sentences until you have adressed the points I made coherently.