https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7C_OJJERqs

I can't make sense out of this habit.

What is the point? Do they believe
they can do a better conducting
job than professional conductors?
Are they trying to avoid differences
of opinion about interpretation or
about tempi?

It is not obvious to me how it adds
anything to a performance. Playing
just the piano part is already difficult
enough -- why make it even harder?

dk

You're living in the Fifties, the era of the great conductors.
1 at the time this music was created the pianist conducted the orchestra, such as it was. That's why some of today's pianists do the same.
2 today's orchestras are very very good technically, even orchestras we would consider second rate. They can play this stuff backwards without spending a fortune on some baton twirler. You just pay attention to the soloist and the first violinist.
3 since in a concerto the 'interpretative' part, the general concept of pace and mood, comes from the soloist, not the conductor, the conductor is pretty much a superfluous and very expensive cog in the wheel.
4 it's not that hard to conduct from the keyboard. Also, Mozart's notes aren't that hard; it's the expression that's hard.

So, they;re not "obsessed", you are. Though the better word would be "ignorant".

And what's a "professional" conductor? Someone you look up to? As in "obsessed"?

On Monday, 18 July 2022 at 13:58:08 UTC+10, dan....gmail.com wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7C_OJJERqs
>
> I can't make sense out of this habit.
>
> What is the point? Do they believe
> they can do a better conducting
> job than professional conductors?
> Are they trying to avoid differences
> of opinion about interpretation or
> about tempi?
>
> It is not obvious to me how it adds
> anything to a performance. Playing
> just the piano part is already difficult
> enough -- why make it even harder?
>
> dk

Partly because any good orchestra can play the accompaniments to these concertos with ease, without some baton waver hovering over them. Also, I have often thought, any conflict between conductor and soloist is eliminated, and the soloist becomes fully responsible. I used to think that this performance practice was "juggling 5 balls is is more impressive than juggling 4", but on reflection, for these type of early concertos I see a separate conductor as more of an impediment rather than an asset. Depends on how soloist and conductor get along.
After all, these works were designed for the solo instrument, much the same as in Vivaldi's many different types of concertos. With orchestral complexity, the need for a conductor became more evident.

Ray Hall, Taree

On 18 Jul 2022 Herman wrote:

> You're living in the Fifties, the era of the great conductors.
> 1 at the time this music was created the pianist conducted the
> orchestra, such as it was. That's why some of today's pianists do the
> same.
> 2 today's orchestras are very very good technically, even orchestras we
> would consider second rate. They can play this stuff backwards without
> spending a fortune on some baton twirler. You just pay attention to the
> soloist and the first violinist.
> 3 since in a concerto the 'interpretative' part, the general concept of
> pace and mood, comes from the soloist, not the conductor, the conductor
> is pretty much a superfluous and very expensive cog in the wheel.
> 4 it's not that hard to conduct from the keyboard. Also, Mozart's notes
> aren't that hard; it's the expression that's hard.

Very well put sir.

Chris

On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 12:05:33 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> You're living in the Fifties, the era of the great conductors.

I live in the present.

> 1 at the time this music was created the
> pianist conducted the orchestra, such as
> it was.

Middle Ages.

> That's why some of today's pianists do the
> same.

Pervertly misguided.

> 2 today's orchestras are very very good technically,
> even orchestras we would consider second rate.

They are indeed. Just add oil and they play forever.

> They can play this stuff backwards without spending
> a fortune on some baton twirler.

Oftentimes the baton twirler attracts more people
to the concert hall than the soloist(s).

> You just pay attention to the soloist and the first
> violinist.

I don't pay attention to anyone! ;-)

> 3 since in a concerto the 'interpretative' part, the
> general concept of pace and mood, comes from
> the soloist, not the conductor, the conductor is
> pretty much a superfluous and very expensive
> cog in the wheel.

Just like Swiss watches!

> 4 it's not that hard to conduct from the keyboard.

Speaking like a fiddler! ;-)

> Also, Mozart's notes aren't that hard; it's the
> expression that's hard.

Paying attention to anything else is still a big
distraction.

dk

On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 1:09:55 AM UTC-7, Chris J. wrote:
> On 18 Jul 2022 Herman wrote:
>
> > You're living in the Fifties, the era of the great conductors.
> > 1 at the time this music was created the pianist conducted the
> > orchestra, such as it was. That's why some of today's pianists do the
> > same.
> > 2 today's orchestras are very very good technically, even orchestras we
> > would consider second rate. They can play this stuff backwards without
> > spending a fortune on some baton twirler. You just pay attention to the
> > soloist and the first violinist.
> > 3 since in a concerto the 'interpretative' part, the general concept of
> > pace and mood, comes from the soloist, not the conductor, the conductor
> > is pretty much a superfluous and very expensive cog in the wheel.
> > 4 it's not that hard to conduct from the keyboard. Also, Mozart's notes
> > aren't that hard; it's the expression that's hard.
> Very well put sir.

Problem is this is no longer limited to Mozart.
We're seeing pianists do this with Beethoven,
Chopin, Schumann and even Brahms concerti.

dk

On 7/17/2022 11:58 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7C_OJJERqs
>
> I can't make sense out of this habit.
>
> What is the point? Do they believe
> they can do a better conducting
> job than professional conductors?
> Are they trying to avoid differences
> of opinion about interpretation or
> about tempi?
>
> It is not obvious to me how it adds
> anything to a performance. Playing
> just the piano part is already difficult
> enough -- why make it even harder?
>
> dk

You don't have to hire a conductor.

The soloist sees a conducting career down the road and how better to get a foot in the door?

On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 7:36:38 AM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 7/17/2022 11:58 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7C_OJJERqs
> >
> > I can't make sense out of this habit.
> >
> > What is the point? Do they believe
> > they can do a better conducting
> > job than professional conductors?
> > Are they trying to avoid differences
> > of opinion about interpretation or
> > about tempi?
> >
> > It is not obvious to me how it adds
> > anything to a performance. Playing
> > just the piano part is already difficult
> > enough -- why make it even harder?
>
> You don't have to hire a conductor.

Except in most cases the conductors
are alredy hired -- typically on annual
contracts rather than per concert.

> The soloist sees a conducting career
> down the road and how better to get
> a foot in the door?

I'd rather not hear anyone practice on
my ears.

dk

Le lundi 18 juillet 2022 à 21:44:49 UTC+2, dan....@gmail.com a écrit :
> On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 7:36:38 AM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> > On 7/17/2022 11:58 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7C_OJJERqs
> > >
> > > I can't make sense out of this habit.
> > >
> > > What is the point? Do they believe
> > > they can do a better conducting
> > > job than professional conductors?
> > > Are they trying to avoid differences
> > > of opinion about interpretation or
> > > about tempi?
> > >
> > > It is not obvious to me how it adds
> > > anything to a performance. Playing
> > > just the piano part is already difficult
> > > enough -- why make it even harder?
> >
> > You don't have to hire a conductor.

> Except in most cases the conductors
> are alredy hired -- typically on annual
> contracts rather than per concert.
> > The soloist sees a conducting career
> > down the road and how better to get
> > a foot in the door?
> I'd rather not hear anyone practice on
> my ears.
>
> dk
Conducting from the piano is not only an actual practice.
Just have to return in the cave to listen to Anda, Gulda, Bernstein, Fischer, Mitropoulos, Walter....
It could be great, as it could be great with a conductor.
The only question is the game's rules....and the games level at the end!

The Cave.

On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 1:11:04 PM UTC-7, comptea...@gmail.com wrote:
> Le lundi 18 juillet 2022 à 21:44:49 UTC+2, dan....@gmail.com a écrit :
> > On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 7:36:38 AM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> > > On 7/17/2022 11:58 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7C_OJJERqs
> > > >
> > > > I can't make sense out of this habit.
> > > >
> > > > What is the point? Do they believe
> > > > they can do a better conducting
> > > > job than professional conductors?
> > > > Are they trying to avoid differences
> > > > of opinion about interpretation or
> > > > about tempi?
> > > >
> > > > It is not obvious to me how it adds
> > > > anything to a performance. Playing
> > > > just the piano part is already difficult
> > > > enough -- why make it even harder?
> > >
> > > You don't have to hire a conductor.
> >
> > Except in most cases the conductors
> > are alredy hired -- typically on annual
> > contracts rather than per concert.
> >
> > > The soloist sees a conducting career
> > > down the road and how better to get
> > > a foot in the door?
> >
> > I'd rather not hear anyone practice on
> > my ears.
>
> Conducting from the piano is not only an actual practice.

I am well aware.

> Just have to return in the cave to listen to
> Anda, Gulda, Bernstein, Fischer, Mitropoulos,
> Walter....

I am familiar with their self-conducting
recordings. I also heard the first 3 live.

> It could be great,

I did not get such an impression. I got
the impression of two half jobs half
well done.

> as it could be great with a conductor.
> The only question is the game's rules....
> and the games level at the end!

?!? Care to elaborate?

dk

On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 9:11:04 PM UTC+1, comptea...@gmail.com wrote:
> Le lundi 18 juillet 2022 à 21:44:49 UTC+2, dan....@gmail.com a écrit :
> > On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 7:36:38 AM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> > > On 7/17/2022 11:58 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7C_OJJERqs
> > > >
> > > > I can't make sense out of this habit.
> > > >
> > > > What is the point? Do they believe
> > > > they can do a better conducting
> > > > job than professional conductors?
> > > > Are they trying to avoid differences
> > > > of opinion about interpretation or
> > > > about tempi?
> > > >
> > > > It is not obvious to me how it adds
> > > > anything to a performance. Playing
> > > > just the piano part is already difficult
> > > > enough -- why make it even harder?
> > >
> > > You don't have to hire a conductor.
>
> > Except in most cases the conductors
> > are alredy hired -- typically on annual
> > contracts rather than per concert.
> > > The soloist sees a conducting career
> > > down the road and how better to get
> > > a foot in the door?
> > I'd rather not hear anyone practice on
> > my ears.
> >
> > dk
> Conducting from the piano is not only an actual practice.
> Just have to return in the cave to listen to Anda, Gulda, Bernstein, Fischer, Mitropoulos, Walter....
> It could be great, as it could be great with a conductor.
> The only question is the game's rules....and the games level at the end!
>
> The Cave.

Yes.

Gilels left several recordings of K595, including one from Moscow where he conducted the orchestra from the piano -- IMO it's well worth a listen.

On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 12:05:15 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 9:11:04 PM UTC+1, comptea...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Le lundi 18 juillet 2022 à 21:44:49 UTC+2, dan....@gmail.com a écrit :
> > > On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 7:36:38 AM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> > > > On 7/17/2022 11:58 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7C_OJJERqs
> > > > >
> > > > > I can't make sense out of this habit.
> > > > >
> > > > > What is the point? Do they believe
> > > > > they can do a better conducting
> > > > > job than professional conductors?
> > > > > Are they trying to avoid differences
> > > > > of opinion about interpretation or
> > > > > about tempi?
> > > > >
> > > > > It is not obvious to me how it adds
> > > > > anything to a performance. Playing
> > > > > just the piano part is already difficult
> > > > > enough -- why make it even harder?
> > > >
> > > > You don't have to hire a conductor.
> >
> > > Except in most cases the conductors
> > > are alredy hired -- typically on annual
> > > contracts rather than per concert.
> > > > The soloist sees a conducting career
> > > > down the road and how better to get
> > > > a foot in the door?
> > > I'd rather not hear anyone practice on
> > > my ears.
> > >
> > > dk
> > Conducting from the piano is not only an actual practice.
> > Just have to return in the cave to listen to Anda, Gulda, Bernstein, Fischer, Mitropoulos, Walter....
> > It could be great, as it could be great with a conductor.
> > The only question is the game's rules....and the games level at the end!
> >
> > The Cave.
> Yes.
>
> Gilels left several recordings of K595, including one from Moscow where he conducted the orchestra from the piano -- IMO it's well worth a listen.

Perahia conducted 491 from the piano. Well worth hearing.

I don't really know how to say it better than to compare the piano to strings of pearls -- the sound is shiny like a pearl and the tones are quite encapsulated -- a portato which I think is quite special. The piano part gives the whole thing the feeling of quality and elegance, gentility, like expensive china from Dresden one could say. And I think that's an unusual effect given the rather big gestures of the orchestra. I also like the orchestral part, I wish that Perahia had conducted more, he kind of missed his real strength maybe. But anyway, it somehow feels slightly incoherent, this ladylike piano style and rugbyman like orchestra, But it is certainly an interesting idea, to put the two together like it and I think I shall keep it.

Piotre Andersewszki also conducted PC24 from the piano, and it's just a revelation in the first movement! The orchestra is wide awake and is on fire, and Andersewski has a gift for making making the piano writing, spirited and articulate. The result makes you see why Beethoven liked this concerto so much.

I very much appreciate the absence of maudlin romanticism in the slow movement. And the boisterous playful piano playing in the variations.

And Fou Ts'Ong conducted Beethoven PC 4 from the piano -- I think it's one of the most interesting recordings of that much recorded concerto ever made.

On 7/19/2022 8:41 AM, Mandryka wrote:
> And Fou Ts'Ong conducted Beethoven PC 4 from the piano -- I think it's one of the most interesting recordings of that much recorded concerto ever made.

Source for that?

On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 1:50:20 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 7/19/2022 8:41 AM, Mandryka wrote:
> > And Fou Ts'Ong conducted Beethoven PC 4 from the piano -- I think it's one of the most interesting recordings of that much recorded concerto ever made.
> Source for that?
No source. My mistake. You're impressive!

Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 14:36:10 UTC+2:
> Perahia conducted 491 from the piano. Well worth hearing.
>
> I don't really know how to say it better than to compare the piano to strings of pearls -- the sound is shiny like a pearl and the tones are quite encapsulated -- a portato which I think is quite special. The piano part gives the whole thing the feeling of quality and elegance, gentility, like expensive china from Dresden one could say. And I think that's an unusual effect given the rather big gestures of the orchestra. I also like the orchestral part, I wish that Perahia had conducted more, he kind of missed his real strength maybe. But anyway, it somehow feels slightly incoherent, this ladylike piano style and rugbyman like orchestra, But it is certainly an interesting idea, to put the two together like it and I think I shall keep it.

No good.

I think I would be taking inspiration from how Susskind conducted it with Gould and how Conrad van Alphen conducted it with Pletnev. It's the biggest Mozart concerto, I need a sense of wideness and also strength which is both missing with Perahia as a conductor (and he is no good at accentuating... strings, winds from what I remember). Mozart wanted to break out of the constraints of his time with this concerto (and a lot of other stuff) and Perahia is putting him back in...

I also do not like (maybe it's also the fault of the recording equipment) the orchestras in the recordings of Michelangeli, Schnabel and Bashkirov for the most part which is why I have problems with the records... I think I agree with you that Schnabel sometimes is too fast with Mozart (not in regards to his technique, but phrasing), which I also think is true for Bashkirov in 491... still their pianism is the most inspiring Mozart pianism I heard.

And I would agree with you that today we shouldn't approach Mahler or Beethoven or Mozart etc in an (overly) romanticised (I am thinking along the lines of Furtwängler or Stokowski style) way, but Gould or Boulez is just not good and the hip-way of doing things is just death...

dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Montag, 18. Juli 2022 um 05:58:08 UTC+2:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7C_OJJERqs
>
> I can't make sense out of this habit.
>
> What is the point? Do they believe
> they can do a better conducting
> job than professional conductors?
> Are they trying to avoid differences
> of opinion about interpretation or
> about tempi?
>
> It is not obvious to me how it adds
> anything to a performance. Playing
> just the piano part is already difficult
> enough -- why make it even harder?
>
> dk

Are there any "professional" conductors today who are good with Mozart? I don't think so... This is the real problem...

(I am well aware that conductors might take advice from the soloist depending on the situation)

On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:13:34 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
> Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 14:36:10 UTC+2:
> > Perahia conducted 491 from the piano. Well worth hearing.
> >
> > I don't really know how to say it better than to compare the piano to strings of pearls -- the sound is shiny like a pearl and the tones are quite encapsulated -- a portato which I think is quite special. The piano part gives the whole thing the feeling of quality and elegance, gentility, like expensive china from Dresden one could say. And I think that's an unusual effect given the rather big gestures of the orchestra. I also like the orchestral part, I wish that Perahia had conducted more, he kind of missed his real strength maybe. But anyway, it somehow feels slightly incoherent, this ladylike piano style and rugbyman like orchestra, But it is certainly an interesting idea, to put the two together like it and I think I shall keep it.
> No good.
>
> I think I would be taking inspiration from how Susskind conducted it with Gould and how Conrad van Alphen conducted it with Pletnev. It's the biggest Mozart concerto, I need a sense of wideness and also strength which is both missing with Perahia as a conductor (and he is no good at accentuating.... strings, winds from what I remember). Mozart wanted to break out of the constraints of his time with this concerto (and a lot of other stuff) and Perahia is putting him back in...
>
> I also do not like (maybe it's also the fault of the recording equipment) the orchestras in the recordings of Michelangeli, Schnabel and Bashkirov for the most part which is why I have problems with the records... I think I agree with you that Schnabel sometimes is too fast with Mozart (not in regards to his technique, but phrasing), which I also think is true for Bashkirov in 491... still their pianism is the most inspiring Mozart pianism I heard.
>
> And I would agree with you that today we shouldn't approach Mahler or Beethoven or Mozart etc in an (overly) romanticised (I am thinking along the lines of Furtwängler or Stokowski style) way, but Gould or Boulez is just not good and the hip-way of doing things is just death...

I think Perahia’s conducting in that particular concerto has all the strength and wildness the concerto needs.

It's rather tiresome to have a total newbie to classical music pontificate at unprecedented length about music he knows next to nothing about, about what he "needs" in any given concerto. All these negative verdicts in a pathetic attempt to curry favour with the resident mr. negative, the great bullshit artist... Please let me be your friend, Dan... It's a painful spectacle.

One could say, come back in five years and listen to some music in the meantime without this constant need to say something 'definitive' about those two minutes you managed to listen. But hey, it's not about music, Mozart or anything.. It's about ego.

On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:16:43 PM UTC+2, Marc S wrote:
>
> (I am well aware that conductors might take advice from the soloist depending on the situation)

Clueless

On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:31:31 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:13:34 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
> > Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 14:36:10 UTC+2:
> > > Perahia conducted 491 from the piano. Well worth hearing.
> > >
> > > I don't really know how to say it better than to compare the piano to strings of pearls -- the sound is shiny like a pearl and the tones are quite encapsulated -- a portato which I think is quite special. The piano part gives the whole thing the feeling of quality and elegance, gentility, like expensive china from Dresden one could say. And I think that's an unusual effect given the rather big gestures of the orchestra. I also like the orchestral part, I wish that Perahia had conducted more, he kind of missed his real strength maybe. But anyway, it somehow feels slightly incoherent, this ladylike piano style and rugbyman like orchestra, But it is certainly an interesting idea, to put the two together like it and I think I shall keep it.
> > No good.
> >
> > I think I would be taking inspiration from how Susskind conducted it with Gould and how Conrad van Alphen conducted it with Pletnev. It's the biggest Mozart concerto, I need a sense of wideness and also strength which is both missing with Perahia as a conductor (and he is no good at accentuating.... strings, winds from what I remember). Mozart wanted to break out of the constraints of his time with this concerto (and a lot of other stuff) and Perahia is putting him back in...
> >
> > I also do not like (maybe it's also the fault of the recording equipment) the orchestras in the recordings of Michelangeli, Schnabel and Bashkirov for the most part which is why I have problems with the records... I think I agree with you that Schnabel sometimes is too fast with Mozart (not in regards to his technique, but phrasing), which I also think is true for Bashkirov in 491... still their pianism is the most inspiring Mozart pianism I heard.
> >
> > And I would agree with you that today we shouldn't approach Mahler or Beethoven or Mozart etc in an (overly) romanticised (I am thinking along the lines of Furtwängler or Stokowski style) way, but Gould or Boulez is just not good and the hip-way of doing things is just death...
> I think Perahia’s conducting in that particular concerto has all the strength and wildness the concerto needs.

But I may well have been unfair about his piano playing, which seems to me without reservation outstanding now, and the whole - orchestra and piano part - come together perfectly. I think it’s a wonderful K 491.

On 7/19/2022 8:53 AM, Mandryka wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 1:50:20 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 7/19/2022 8:41 AM, Mandryka wrote:
>>> And Fou Ts'Ong conducted Beethoven PC 4 from the piano -- I think it's one of the most interesting recordings of that much recorded concerto ever made.
>> Source for that?
> No source. My mistake. You're impressive!

Why impressive? I just wasn't familiar with it and couldn't find reference to it anywhere. Heck, he might have done it and it wasn't recorded. Who knows?

On 7/19/22 9:39 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 7/19/2022 8:53 AM, Mandryka wrote:
>> On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 1:50:20 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>>> On 7/19/2022 8:41 AM, Mandryka wrote:
>>>> And Fou Ts'Ong conducted Beethoven PC 4 from the piano -- I think
>>>> it's one of the most interesting recordings of that much recorded
>>>> concerto ever made.
>>> Source for that?
>> No source. My mistake. You're impressive!
>
> Why impressive?  I just wasn't familiar with it and couldn't find
> reference to it anywhere. Heck, he might have done it and it wasn't
> recorded.  Who knows?

The confusion may arise from Fou Ts'Ong's 2005 Meridian release that
paired a Beethoven 4 conducted by Jerzy Swoboda with a Haydn concerto
led from the keyboard.

https://www.meridian-records.co.uk/acatalog/CDE_84494.html

There's a pianist-led Mozart 22/24 by Ts'Ong on Spotify.