On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 4:59:57 PM UTC+1, MINe109 wrote:
> On 7/19/22 9:39 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
> > On 7/19/2022 8:53 AM, Mandryka wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 1:50:20 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>> On 7/19/2022 8:41 AM, Mandryka wrote:
> >>>> And Fou Ts'Ong conducted Beethoven PC 4 from the piano -- I think
> >>>> it's one of the most interesting recordings of that much recorded
> >>>> concerto ever made.
> >>> Source for that?
> >> No source. My mistake. You're impressive!
> >
> > Why impressive? I just wasn't familiar with it and couldn't find
> > reference to it anywhere. Heck, he might have done it and it wasn't
> > recorded. Who knows?
> The confusion may arise from Fou Ts'Ong's 2005 Meridian release that
> paired a Beethoven 4 conducted by Jerzy Swoboda with a Haydn concerto
> led from the keyboard.
>
> https://www.meridian-records.co.uk/acatalog/CDE_84494.html
>
> There's a pianist-led Mozart 22/24 by Ts'Ong on Spotify.

Yes that’s right, I’d just assumed for no good reason that he conducted all his recordings with the Varsovie orchestra.

Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 15:38:59 UTC+2:
> On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:31:31 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:13:34 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
> > > Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 14:36:10 UTC+2:
> > > > Perahia conducted 491 from the piano. Well worth hearing.
> > > >
> > > > I don't really know how to say it better than to compare the piano to strings of pearls -- the sound is shiny like a pearl and the tones are quite encapsulated -- a portato which I think is quite special. The piano part gives the whole thing the feeling of quality and elegance, gentility, like expensive china from Dresden one could say. And I think that's an unusual effect given the rather big gestures of the orchestra. I also like the orchestral part, I wish that Perahia had conducted more, he kind of missed his real strength maybe. But anyway, it somehow feels slightly incoherent, this ladylike piano style and rugbyman like orchestra, But it is certainly an interesting idea, to put the two together like it and I think I shall keep it.
> > > No good.
> > >
> > > I think I would be taking inspiration from how Susskind conducted it with Gould and how Conrad van Alphen conducted it with Pletnev. It's the biggest Mozart concerto, I need a sense of wideness and also strength which is both missing with Perahia as a conductor (and he is no good at accentuating... strings, winds from what I remember). Mozart wanted to break out of the constraints of his time with this concerto (and a lot of other stuff) and Perahia is putting him back in...
> > >
> > > I also do not like (maybe it's also the fault of the recording equipment) the orchestras in the recordings of Michelangeli, Schnabel and Bashkirov for the most part which is why I have problems with the records... I think I agree with you that Schnabel sometimes is too fast with Mozart (not in regards to his technique, but phrasing), which I also think is true for Bashkirov in 491... still their pianism is the most inspiring Mozart pianism I heard.
> > >
> > > And I would agree with you that today we shouldn't approach Mahler or Beethoven or Mozart etc in an (overly) romanticised (I am thinking along the lines of Furtwängler or Stokowski style) way, but Gould or Boulez is just not good and the hip-way of doing things is just death...
> > I think Perahia’s conducting in that particular concerto has all the strength and wildness the concerto needs.
> But I may well have been unfair about his piano playing, which seems to me without reservation outstanding now, and the whole - orchestra and piano part - come together perfectly. I think it’s a wonderful K 491.

Well, if you are happy with it, just enjoy it. You seem to be similar to Melmoth imo, in that you will almost find a good thing to say about almost every performance... or at least you never say anythign outright bad.

It's like the dislike-button not only disappeared from youtube, but sort of also out of people's minds. If that makes you feel comfy ;)

On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 11:58:08 PM UTC-4, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7C_OJJERqs
>
> I can't make sense out of this habit.
>
> What is the point? Do they believe
> they can do a better conducting
> job than professional conductors?
> Are they trying to avoid differences
> of opinion about interpretation or
> about tempi?
>
> It is not obvious to me how it adds
> anything to a performance. Playing
> just the piano part is already difficult
> enough -- why make it even harder?
>
> dk

that's nothing....
Lars Vogt plays and conducts Brahms PC 2 (terrible piano):-))))

Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 19:45:08 UTC+2:
> Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 15:38:59 UTC+2:
> > On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:31:31 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:13:34 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
> > > > Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 14:36:10 UTC+2:
> > > > > Perahia conducted 491 from the piano. Well worth hearing.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't really know how to say it better than to compare the piano to strings of pearls -- the sound is shiny like a pearl and the tones are quite encapsulated -- a portato which I think is quite special. The piano part gives the whole thing the feeling of quality and elegance, gentility, like expensive china from Dresden one could say. And I think that's an unusual effect given the rather big gestures of the orchestra. I also like the orchestral part, I wish that Perahia had conducted more, he kind of missed his real strength maybe. But anyway, it somehow feels slightly incoherent, this ladylike piano style and rugbyman like orchestra, But it is certainly an interesting idea, to put the two together like it and I think I shall keep it.
> > > > No good.
> > > >
> > > > I think I would be taking inspiration from how Susskind conducted it with Gould and how Conrad van Alphen conducted it with Pletnev. It's the biggest Mozart concerto, I need a sense of wideness and also strength which is both missing with Perahia as a conductor (and he is no good at accentuating... strings, winds from what I remember). Mozart wanted to break out of the constraints of his time with this concerto (and a lot of other stuff) and Perahia is putting him back in...
> > > >
> > > > I also do not like (maybe it's also the fault of the recording equipment) the orchestras in the recordings of Michelangeli, Schnabel and Bashkirov for the most part which is why I have problems with the records... I think I agree with you that Schnabel sometimes is too fast with Mozart (not in regards to his technique, but phrasing), which I also think is true for Bashkirov in 491... still their pianism is the most inspiring Mozart pianism I heard.
> > > >
> > > > And I would agree with you that today we shouldn't approach Mahler or Beethoven or Mozart etc in an (overly) romanticised (I am thinking along the lines of Furtwängler or Stokowski style) way, but Gould or Boulez is just not good and the hip-way of doing things is just death...
> > > I think Perahia’s conducting in that particular concerto has all the strength and wildness the concerto needs.
> > But I may well have been unfair about his piano playing, which seems to me without reservation outstanding now, and the whole - orchestra and piano part - come together perfectly. I think it’s a wonderful K 491.
> Well, if you are happy with it, just enjoy it. You seem to be similar to Melmoth imo, in that you will almost find a good thing to say about almost every performance... or at least you never say anythign outright bad.
>
> It's like the dislike-button not only disappeared from youtube, but sort of also out of people's minds. If that makes you feel comfy ;)

I have to revise myself, you said Schnabel is not in good taste ;) So you said something bad. But in the end, just from reading what you generally write... and also you regards to your recent recommendations... you like a lot more than you dislike it seems. I just find this really confusing. But this is just my opinion.

On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:45:08 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 15:38:59 UTC+2:
> > On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:31:31 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:13:34 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
> > > > Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 14:36:10 UTC+2:
> > > > > Perahia conducted 491 from the piano. Well worth hearing.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't really know how to say it better than to compare the piano to strings of pearls -- the sound is shiny like a pearl and the tones are quite encapsulated -- a portato which I think is quite special. The piano part gives the whole thing the feeling of quality and elegance, gentility, like expensive china from Dresden one could say. And I think that's an unusual effect given the rather big gestures of the orchestra. I also like the orchestral part, I wish that Perahia had conducted more, he kind of missed his real strength maybe. But anyway, it somehow feels slightly incoherent, this ladylike piano style and rugbyman like orchestra, But it is certainly an interesting idea, to put the two together like it and I think I shall keep it.
> > > > No good.
> > > >
> > > > I think I would be taking inspiration from how Susskind conducted it with Gould and how Conrad van Alphen conducted it with Pletnev. It's the biggest Mozart concerto, I need a sense of wideness and also strength which is both missing with Perahia as a conductor (and he is no good at accentuating... strings, winds from what I remember). Mozart wanted to break out of the constraints of his time with this concerto (and a lot of other stuff) and Perahia is putting him back in...
> > > >
> > > > I also do not like (maybe it's also the fault of the recording equipment) the orchestras in the recordings of Michelangeli, Schnabel and Bashkirov for the most part which is why I have problems with the records... I think I agree with you that Schnabel sometimes is too fast with Mozart (not in regards to his technique, but phrasing), which I also think is true for Bashkirov in 491... still their pianism is the most inspiring Mozart pianism I heard.
> > > >
> > > > And I would agree with you that today we shouldn't approach Mahler or Beethoven or Mozart etc in an (overly) romanticised (I am thinking along the lines of Furtwängler or Stokowski style) way, but Gould or Boulez is just not good and the hip-way of doing things is just death...
> > > I think Perahia’s conducting in that particular concerto has all the strength and wildness the concerto needs.
> > But I may well have been unfair about his piano playing, which seems to me without reservation outstanding now, and the whole - orchestra and piano part - come together perfectly. I think it’s a wonderful K 491.
> Well, if you are happy with it, just enjoy it. You seem to be similar to Melmoth imo, in that you will almost find a good thing to say about almost every performance... or at least you never say anythign outright bad.
>
> It's like the dislike-button not only disappeared from youtube, but sort of also out of people's minds. If that makes you feel comfy ;)

Concerning the comment "You seem to be similar to Melmoth imo, in that you will almost find a good thing to say about almost every performance... or at least you never say anythign outright bad.", Melmoth has previously posted that the reason he doesn't include my posts in his monthly statistical survey is because they belong "In my manure pit".

You call THAT response 'diplomatic'?

Deliberate cruelty is NOT forgiveable:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/vivien-leigh-as-blanche-dubois-in-a-streetcar-named-desire-1951--316166836313145938/

On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:45:08 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 15:38:59 UTC+2:
> > On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:31:31 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:13:34 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
> > > > Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 14:36:10 UTC+2:
> > > > > Perahia conducted 491 from the piano. Well worth hearing.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't really know how to say it better than to compare the piano to strings of pearls -- the sound is shiny like a pearl and the tones are quite encapsulated -- a portato which I think is quite special. The piano part gives the whole thing the feeling of quality and elegance, gentility, like expensive china from Dresden one could say. And I think that's an unusual effect given the rather big gestures of the orchestra. I also like the orchestral part, I wish that Perahia had conducted more, he kind of missed his real strength maybe. But anyway, it somehow feels slightly incoherent, this ladylike piano style and rugbyman like orchestra, But it is certainly an interesting idea, to put the two together like it and I think I shall keep it.
> > > > No good.
> > > >
> > > > I think I would be taking inspiration from how Susskind conducted it with Gould and how Conrad van Alphen conducted it with Pletnev. It's the biggest Mozart concerto, I need a sense of wideness and also strength which is both missing with Perahia as a conductor (and he is no good at accentuating... strings, winds from what I remember). Mozart wanted to break out of the constraints of his time with this concerto (and a lot of other stuff) and Perahia is putting him back in...
> > > >
> > > > I also do not like (maybe it's also the fault of the recording equipment) the orchestras in the recordings of Michelangeli, Schnabel and Bashkirov for the most part which is why I have problems with the records... I think I agree with you that Schnabel sometimes is too fast with Mozart (not in regards to his technique, but phrasing), which I also think is true for Bashkirov in 491... still their pianism is the most inspiring Mozart pianism I heard.
> > > >
> > > > And I would agree with you that today we shouldn't approach Mahler or Beethoven or Mozart etc in an (overly) romanticised (I am thinking along the lines of Furtwängler or Stokowski style) way, but Gould or Boulez is just not good and the hip-way of doing things is just death...
> > > I think Perahia’s conducting in that particular concerto has all the strength and wildness the concerto needs.
> > But I may well have been unfair about his piano playing, which seems to me without reservation outstanding now, and the whole - orchestra and piano part - come together perfectly. I think it’s a wonderful K 491.
> Well, if you are happy with it, just enjoy it. You seem to be similar to Melmoth imo, in that you will almost find a good thing to say about almost every performance... or at least you never say anythign outright bad.
>
> It's like the dislike-button not only disappeared from youtube, but sort of also out of people's minds. If that makes you feel comfy ;)

Concerning the comment "You seem to be similar to Melmoth imo, in that you will almost find a good thing to say about almost every performance... or at least you never say anythign outright bad.", Melmoth has previously posted that the reason he doesn't include my posts in his monthly statistical survey is because they belong "In my manure pit".

You call THAT response 'diplomatic'?

Deliberate cruelty is NOT forgivable:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/vivien-leigh-as-blanche-dubois-in-a-streetcar-named-desire-1951--316166836313145938/

On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 7:07:15 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
> Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 19:45:08 UTC+2:
> > Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 15:38:59 UTC+2:
> > > On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:31:31 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:13:34 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
> > > > > Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 14:36:10 UTC+2:
> > > > > > Perahia conducted 491 from the piano. Well worth hearing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't really know how to say it better than to compare the piano to strings of pearls -- the sound is shiny like a pearl and the tones are quite encapsulated -- a portato which I think is quite special. The piano part gives the whole thing the feeling of quality and elegance, gentility, like expensive china from Dresden one could say. And I think that's an unusual effect given the rather big gestures of the orchestra. I also like the orchestral part, I wish that Perahia had conducted more, he kind of missed his real strength maybe. But anyway, it somehow feels slightly incoherent, this ladylike piano style and rugbyman like orchestra, But it is certainly an interesting idea, to put the two together like it and I think I shall keep it.
> > > > > No good.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think I would be taking inspiration from how Susskind conducted it with Gould and how Conrad van Alphen conducted it with Pletnev. It's the biggest Mozart concerto, I need a sense of wideness and also strength which is both missing with Perahia as a conductor (and he is no good at accentuating... strings, winds from what I remember). Mozart wanted to break out of the constraints of his time with this concerto (and a lot of other stuff) and Perahia is putting him back in...
> > > > >
> > > > > I also do not like (maybe it's also the fault of the recording equipment) the orchestras in the recordings of Michelangeli, Schnabel and Bashkirov for the most part which is why I have problems with the records... I think I agree with you that Schnabel sometimes is too fast with Mozart (not in regards to his technique, but phrasing), which I also think is true for Bashkirov in 491... still their pianism is the most inspiring Mozart pianism I heard.
> > > > >
> > > > > And I would agree with you that today we shouldn't approach Mahler or Beethoven or Mozart etc in an (overly) romanticised (I am thinking along the lines of Furtwängler or Stokowski style) way, but Gould or Boulez is just not good and the hip-way of doing things is just death...
> > > > I think Perahia’s conducting in that particular concerto has all the strength and wildness the concerto needs.
> > > But I may well have been unfair about his piano playing, which seems to me without reservation outstanding now, and the whole - orchestra and piano part - come together perfectly. I think it’s a wonderful K 491.
> > Well, if you are happy with it, just enjoy it. You seem to be similar to Melmoth imo, in that you will almost find a good thing to say about almost every performance... or at least you never say anythign outright bad.
> >
> > It's like the dislike-button not only disappeared from youtube, but sort of also out of people's minds. If that makes you feel comfy ;)
> I have to revise myself, you said Schnabel is not in good taste ;) So you said something bad. But in the end, just from reading what you generally write... and also you regards to your recent recommendations... you like a lot more than you dislike it seems. I just find this really confusing. But this is just my opinion.

Apart from specific recordings by Perahia and Horowitz, I haven't said anything about the things I like, at least as far as I recall.

gggg gggg schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 20:28:25 UTC+2:
> Concerning the comment "You seem to be similar to Melmoth imo, in that you will almost find a good thing to say about almost every performance... or at least you never say anythign outright bad.", Melmoth has previously posted that the reason he doesn't include my posts in his monthly statistical survey is because they belong "In my manure pit".
>
> You call THAT response 'diplomatic'?
>
> Deliberate cruelty is NOT forgivable:
>
> https://www.pinterest.com/pin/vivien-leigh-as-blanche-dubois-in-a-streetcar-named-desire-1951--316166836313145938/

Are you the morality police on patrol? That is exactly what is wrong with German politics and the "liberals"... trying to make everyone conform to their ideas of morality. I don't think that my reply was in any way crude, but just stating what I observe: He and Melmoth seem to like almost everything.. And I find it confusing. If Mandryka disagrees he can tell me. And in general this seems to me to be a behaviour of people who are not trying to offend anyone, just to stay comfy.

All the hate gets unloaded on Trump. I wish someone would hate Chamenei as much. The Germans sure know to hate Trump or sometimes even Netanyahu, but most are oblivious to Chamenei... I think this is confusing as well. Honestly, it seemed to me the Germans and the German media hated more on Trump than on Erdogan...

If people feel offended by what you quoted, or if I hurt their feelings, I surely think they need to work on themselves (just as you need to!)... if something likes this already hurts someones feelings, it almost seems like what I said might be in true in some way... because if it weren't, why be hurt?

gggg gggg schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 20:28:25 UTC+2:
> On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:45:08 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> > Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 15:38:59 UTC+2:
> > > On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:31:31 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:13:34 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
> > > > > Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 14:36:10 UTC+2:
> > > > > > Perahia conducted 491 from the piano. Well worth hearing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't really know how to say it better than to compare the piano to strings of pearls -- the sound is shiny like a pearl and the tones are quite encapsulated -- a portato which I think is quite special. The piano part gives the whole thing the feeling of quality and elegance, gentility, like expensive china from Dresden one could say. And I think that's an unusual effect given the rather big gestures of the orchestra. I also like the orchestral part, I wish that Perahia had conducted more, he kind of missed his real strength maybe. But anyway, it somehow feels slightly incoherent, this ladylike piano style and rugbyman like orchestra, But it is certainly an interesting idea, to put the two together like it and I think I shall keep it.
> > > > > No good.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think I would be taking inspiration from how Susskind conducted it with Gould and how Conrad van Alphen conducted it with Pletnev. It's the biggest Mozart concerto, I need a sense of wideness and also strength which is both missing with Perahia as a conductor (and he is no good at accentuating... strings, winds from what I remember). Mozart wanted to break out of the constraints of his time with this concerto (and a lot of other stuff) and Perahia is putting him back in...
> > > > >
> > > > > I also do not like (maybe it's also the fault of the recording equipment) the orchestras in the recordings of Michelangeli, Schnabel and Bashkirov for the most part which is why I have problems with the records... I think I agree with you that Schnabel sometimes is too fast with Mozart (not in regards to his technique, but phrasing), which I also think is true for Bashkirov in 491... still their pianism is the most inspiring Mozart pianism I heard.
> > > > >
> > > > > And I would agree with you that today we shouldn't approach Mahler or Beethoven or Mozart etc in an (overly) romanticised (I am thinking along the lines of Furtwängler or Stokowski style) way, but Gould or Boulez is just not good and the hip-way of doing things is just death...
> > > > I think Perahia’s conducting in that particular concerto has all the strength and wildness the concerto needs.
> > > But I may well have been unfair about his piano playing, which seems to me without reservation outstanding now, and the whole - orchestra and piano part - come together perfectly. I think it’s a wonderful K 491.
> > Well, if you are happy with it, just enjoy it. You seem to be similar to Melmoth imo, in that you will almost find a good thing to say about almost every performance... or at least you never say anythign outright bad.
> >
> > It's like the dislike-button not only disappeared from youtube, but sort of also out of people's minds. If that makes you feel comfy ;)
> Concerning the comment "You seem to be similar to Melmoth imo, in that you will almost find a good thing to say about almost every performance... or at least you never say anythign outright bad.", Melmoth has previously posted that the reason he doesn't include my posts in his monthly statistical survey is because they belong "In my manure pit".
>
> You call THAT response 'diplomatic'?
>
> Deliberate cruelty is NOT forgivable:
>
> https://www.pinterest.com/pin/vivien-leigh-as-blanche-dubois-in-a-streetcar-named-desire-1951--316166836313145938/

Where was the morality police when people called Israel a killing machine on here? Your ignorance is unforgivable.

Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 20:41:05 UTC+2:
> On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 7:07:15 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
> > Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 19:45:08 UTC+2:
> > > Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 15:38:59 UTC+2:
> > > > On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:31:31 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:13:34 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
> > > > > > Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 14:36:10 UTC+2:
> > > > > > > Perahia conducted 491 from the piano. Well worth hearing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I don't really know how to say it better than to compare the piano to strings of pearls -- the sound is shiny like a pearl and the tones are quite encapsulated -- a portato which I think is quite special. The piano part gives the whole thing the feeling of quality and elegance, gentility, like expensive china from Dresden one could say. And I think that's an unusual effect given the rather big gestures of the orchestra. I also like the orchestral part, I wish that Perahia had conducted more, he kind of missed his real strength maybe. But anyway, it somehow feels slightly incoherent, this ladylike piano style and rugbyman like orchestra, But it is certainly an interesting idea, to put the two together like it and I think I shall keep it.
> > > > > > No good.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think I would be taking inspiration from how Susskind conducted it with Gould and how Conrad van Alphen conducted it with Pletnev. It's the biggest Mozart concerto, I need a sense of wideness and also strength which is both missing with Perahia as a conductor (and he is no good at accentuating... strings, winds from what I remember). Mozart wanted to break out of the constraints of his time with this concerto (and a lot of other stuff) and Perahia is putting him back in...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I also do not like (maybe it's also the fault of the recording equipment) the orchestras in the recordings of Michelangeli, Schnabel and Bashkirov for the most part which is why I have problems with the records... I think I agree with you that Schnabel sometimes is too fast with Mozart (not in regards to his technique, but phrasing), which I also think is true for Bashkirov in 491... still their pianism is the most inspiring Mozart pianism I heard.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And I would agree with you that today we shouldn't approach Mahler or Beethoven or Mozart etc in an (overly) romanticised (I am thinking along the lines of Furtwängler or Stokowski style) way, but Gould or Boulez is just not good and the hip-way of doing things is just death...
> > > > > I think Perahia’s conducting in that particular concerto has all the strength and wildness the concerto needs.
> > > > But I may well have been unfair about his piano playing, which seems to me without reservation outstanding now, and the whole - orchestra and piano part - come together perfectly. I think it’s a wonderful K 491.
> > > Well, if you are happy with it, just enjoy it. You seem to be similar to Melmoth imo, in that you will almost find a good thing to say about almost every performance... or at least you never say anythign outright bad.
> > >
> > > It's like the dislike-button not only disappeared from youtube, but sort of also out of people's minds. If that makes you feel comfy ;)
> > I have to revise myself, you said Schnabel is not in good taste ;) So you said something bad. But in the end, just from reading what you generally write... and also you regards to your recent recommendations... you like a lot more than you dislike it seems. I just find this really confusing. But this is just my opinion.
> Apart from specific recordings by Perahia and Horowitz, I haven't said anything about the things I like, at least as far as I recall.

Okay, but you recommend a lot - I have been reading forums for a few years now... Maybe it is a mistake on my behalf, but it seems to me that you really let a lot "pass" as a good recording...

Does this mean the pianists you recommened me in regards to Mozart are most not to your liking?

On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 7:50:32 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
> Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 20:41:05 UTC+2:
> > On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 7:07:15 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
> > > Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 19:45:08 UTC+2:
> > > > Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 15:38:59 UTC+2:
> > > > > On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:31:31 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> > > > > > On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:13:34 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
> > > > > > > Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 14:36:10 UTC+2:
> > > > > > > > Perahia conducted 491 from the piano. Well worth hearing.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I don't really know how to say it better than to compare the piano to strings of pearls -- the sound is shiny like a pearl and the tones are quite encapsulated -- a portato which I think is quite special. The piano part gives the whole thing the feeling of quality and elegance, gentility, like expensive china from Dresden one could say. And I think that's an unusual effect given the rather big gestures of the orchestra. I also like the orchestral part, I wish that Perahia had conducted more, he kind of missed his real strength maybe. But anyway, it somehow feels slightly incoherent, this ladylike piano style and rugbyman like orchestra, But it is certainly an interesting idea, to put the two together like it and I think I shall keep it.
> > > > > > > No good.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think I would be taking inspiration from how Susskind conducted it with Gould and how Conrad van Alphen conducted it with Pletnev. It's the biggest Mozart concerto, I need a sense of wideness and also strength which is both missing with Perahia as a conductor (and he is no good at accentuating... strings, winds from what I remember). Mozart wanted to break out of the constraints of his time with this concerto (and a lot of other stuff) and Perahia is putting him back in...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I also do not like (maybe it's also the fault of the recording equipment) the orchestras in the recordings of Michelangeli, Schnabel and Bashkirov for the most part which is why I have problems with the records.... I think I agree with you that Schnabel sometimes is too fast with Mozart (not in regards to his technique, but phrasing), which I also think is true for Bashkirov in 491... still their pianism is the most inspiring Mozart pianism I heard.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And I would agree with you that today we shouldn't approach Mahler or Beethoven or Mozart etc in an (overly) romanticised (I am thinking along the lines of Furtwängler or Stokowski style) way, but Gould or Boulez is just not good and the hip-way of doing things is just death...
> > > > > > I think Perahia’s conducting in that particular concerto has all the strength and wildness the concerto needs.
> > > > > But I may well have been unfair about his piano playing, which seems to me without reservation outstanding now, and the whole - orchestra and piano part - come together perfectly. I think it’s a wonderful K 491.
> > > > Well, if you are happy with it, just enjoy it. You seem to be similar to Melmoth imo, in that you will almost find a good thing to say about almost every performance... or at least you never say anythign outright bad.
> > > >
> > > > It's like the dislike-button not only disappeared from youtube, but sort of also out of people's minds. If that makes you feel comfy ;)
> > > I have to revise myself, you said Schnabel is not in good taste ;) So you said something bad. But in the end, just from reading what you generally write... and also you regards to your recent recommendations... you like a lot more than you dislike it seems. I just find this really confusing. But this is just my opinion.
> > Apart from specific recordings by Perahia and Horowitz, I haven't said anything about the things I like, at least as far as I recall.
> Okay, but you recommend a lot - I have been reading forums for a few years now... Maybe it is a mistake on my behalf, but it seems to me that you really let a lot "pass" as a good recording...
>
> Does this mean the pianists you recommened me in regards to Mozart are most not to your liking?

I don't know. What I do know is that they had some quality which you said you were looking for, not me -- lightness, texture, un-seriousness etc. The big list came from from 2014, just performances which caught my attention at the time as being worth listening to. But some of them I haven't revisited partly because I'm more interested in Mozart on old pianos, harpsichords and clavichords. That's why I was surprised and pleased to find myself enjoying the Horowitz.

..

On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 8:18:46 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 7:50:32 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
> > Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 20:41:05 UTC+2:
> > > On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 7:07:15 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
> > > > Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 19:45:08 UTC+2:
> > > > > Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 15:38:59 UTC+2:
> > > > > > On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:31:31 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> > > > > > > On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:13:34 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
> > > > > > > > Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 14:36:10 UTC+2:
> > > > > > > > > Perahia conducted 491 from the piano. Well worth hearing.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I don't really know how to say it better than to compare the piano to strings of pearls -- the sound is shiny like a pearl and the tones are quite encapsulated -- a portato which I think is quite special. The piano part gives the whole thing the feeling of quality and elegance, gentility, like expensive china from Dresden one could say. And I think that's an unusual effect given the rather big gestures of the orchestra. I also like the orchestral part, I wish that Perahia had conducted more, he kind of missed his real strength maybe. But anyway, it somehow feels slightly incoherent, this ladylike piano style and rugbyman like orchestra, But it is certainly an interesting idea, to put the two together like it and I think I shall keep it.
> > > > > > > > No good.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think I would be taking inspiration from how Susskind conducted it with Gould and how Conrad van Alphen conducted it with Pletnev. It's the biggest Mozart concerto, I need a sense of wideness and also strength which is both missing with Perahia as a conductor (and he is no good at accentuating... strings, winds from what I remember). Mozart wanted to break out of the constraints of his time with this concerto (and a lot of other stuff) and Perahia is putting him back in...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I also do not like (maybe it's also the fault of the recording equipment) the orchestras in the recordings of Michelangeli, Schnabel and Bashkirov for the most part which is why I have problems with the records... I think I agree with you that Schnabel sometimes is too fast with Mozart (not in regards to his technique, but phrasing), which I also think is true for Bashkirov in 491... still their pianism is the most inspiring Mozart pianism I heard.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And I would agree with you that today we shouldn't approach Mahler or Beethoven or Mozart etc in an (overly) romanticised (I am thinking along the lines of Furtwängler or Stokowski style) way, but Gould or Boulez is just not good and the hip-way of doing things is just death...
> > > > > > > I think Perahia’s conducting in that particular concerto has all the strength and wildness the concerto needs.
> > > > > > But I may well have been unfair about his piano playing, which seems to me without reservation outstanding now, and the whole - orchestra and piano part - come together perfectly. I think it’s a wonderful K 491.
> > > > > Well, if you are happy with it, just enjoy it. You seem to be similar to Melmoth imo, in that you will almost find a good thing to say about almost every performance... or at least you never say anythign outright bad.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's like the dislike-button not only disappeared from youtube, but sort of also out of people's minds. If that makes you feel comfy ;)
> > > > I have to revise myself, you said Schnabel is not in good taste ;) So you said something bad. But in the end, just from reading what you generally write... and also you regards to your recent recommendations... you like a lot more than you dislike it seems. I just find this really confusing. But this is just my opinion.
> > > Apart from specific recordings by Perahia and Horowitz, I haven't said anything about the things I like, at least as far as I recall.
> > Okay, but you recommend a lot - I have been reading forums for a few years now... Maybe it is a mistake on my behalf, but it seems to me that you really let a lot "pass" as a good recording...
> >
> > Does this mean the pianists you recommened me in regards to Mozart are most not to your liking?
> I don't know. What I do know is that they had some quality which you said you were looking for, not me -- lightness, texture, un-seriousness etc. The big list came from from 2014, just performances which caught my attention at the time as being worth listening to. But some of them I haven't revisited partly because I'm more interested in Mozart on old pianos, harpsichords and clavichords. That's why I was surprised and pleased to find myself enjoying the Horowitz.
>
> .
Oh by the way, given that you say you like Schnabel, it may be worth listening to one of his pupils, Rudolf Firkusny.

Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 21:20:22 UTC+2:
> Oh by the way, given that you say you like Schnabel, it may be worth listening to one of his pupils, Rudolf Firkusny.

I know his Mozart, no like.

Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 21:20:22 UTC+2:
> Oh by the way, given that you say you like Schnabel, it may be worth listening to one of his pupils, Rudolf Firkusny.

I also do not like hmmm... how is he called again, another pupil of Schnabel... Shure. And I also do not like Fleisher.

Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 21:18:46 UTC+2:
> I don't know. What I do know is that they had some quality which you said you were looking for, not me -- lightness, texture, un-seriousness etc. The big list came from from 2014, just performances which caught my attention at the time as being worth listening to. But some of them I haven't revisited partly because I'm more interested in Mozart on old pianos, harpsichords and clavichords. That's why I was surprised and pleased to find myself enjoying the Horowitz.
>
> .

Okay. Thanks for being honest and also thanks for the time spent recommending me stuff, but I think you should open your eyes and try to understand more where I am coming from... I explicitly said: Michelangeli, Schnabel and Bashkirov - really noone, or maybe nearly noone you listed comes in anyway close to what they did with Mozart, all what you have shown me is standard or old overly romanticised stuff. You could also view it as wasting my time, making me listen to all those recs (at least I spent time and told you about it)... I mean, it is sort of the easy way of just throwing out 1000 names out without telling me anything about what you think about it (which I would find a bit more interesting) and when I ask for it, you just say "I don't know"...

Also I never said I liked 491 unserious, and criticised Gieseking and Horowitz for being too light. You really neglected a lot of what I said which wouldn't be a problem, but this seems to be the norm on this ng. Man, sure the people are different in my small bubble.

Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 21:18:46 UTC+2:
> On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 7:50:32 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
> > Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 20:41:05 UTC+2:
> > > On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 7:07:15 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
> > > > Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 19:45:08 UTC+2:
> > > > > Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 15:38:59 UTC+2:
> > > > > > On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:31:31 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> > > > > > > On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:13:34 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
> > > > > > > > Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 19. Juli 2022 um 14:36:10 UTC+2:
> > > > > > > > > Perahia conducted 491 from the piano. Well worth hearing.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I don't really know how to say it better than to compare the piano to strings of pearls -- the sound is shiny like a pearl and the tones are quite encapsulated -- a portato which I think is quite special. The piano part gives the whole thing the feeling of quality and elegance, gentility, like expensive china from Dresden one could say. And I think that's an unusual effect given the rather big gestures of the orchestra. I also like the orchestral part, I wish that Perahia had conducted more, he kind of missed his real strength maybe. But anyway, it somehow feels slightly incoherent, this ladylike piano style and rugbyman like orchestra, But it is certainly an interesting idea, to put the two together like it and I think I shall keep it.
> > > > > > > > No good.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think I would be taking inspiration from how Susskind conducted it with Gould and how Conrad van Alphen conducted it with Pletnev. It's the biggest Mozart concerto, I need a sense of wideness and also strength which is both missing with Perahia as a conductor (and he is no good at accentuating... strings, winds from what I remember). Mozart wanted to break out of the constraints of his time with this concerto (and a lot of other stuff) and Perahia is putting him back in...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I also do not like (maybe it's also the fault of the recording equipment) the orchestras in the recordings of Michelangeli, Schnabel and Bashkirov for the most part which is why I have problems with the records... I think I agree with you that Schnabel sometimes is too fast with Mozart (not in regards to his technique, but phrasing), which I also think is true for Bashkirov in 491... still their pianism is the most inspiring Mozart pianism I heard.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And I would agree with you that today we shouldn't approach Mahler or Beethoven or Mozart etc in an (overly) romanticised (I am thinking along the lines of Furtwängler or Stokowski style) way, but Gould or Boulez is just not good and the hip-way of doing things is just death...
> > > > > > > I think Perahia’s conducting in that particular concerto has all the strength and wildness the concerto needs.
> > > > > > But I may well have been unfair about his piano playing, which seems to me without reservation outstanding now, and the whole - orchestra and piano part - come together perfectly. I think it’s a wonderful K 491.
> > > > > Well, if you are happy with it, just enjoy it. You seem to be similar to Melmoth imo, in that you will almost find a good thing to say about almost every performance... or at least you never say anythign outright bad.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's like the dislike-button not only disappeared from youtube, but sort of also out of people's minds. If that makes you feel comfy ;)
> > > > I have to revise myself, you said Schnabel is not in good taste ;) So you said something bad. But in the end, just from reading what you generally write... and also you regards to your recent recommendations... you like a lot more than you dislike it seems. I just find this really confusing. But this is just my opinion.
> > > Apart from specific recordings by Perahia and Horowitz, I haven't said anything about the things I like, at least as far as I recall.
> > Okay, but you recommend a lot - I have been reading forums for a few years now... Maybe it is a mistake on my behalf, but it seems to me that you really let a lot "pass" as a good recording...
> >
> > Does this mean the pianists you recommened me in regards to Mozart are most not to your liking?
> I don't know. What I do know is that they had some quality which you said you were looking for, not me -- lightness, texture, un-seriousness etc. The big list came from from 2014, just performances which caught my attention at the time as being worth listening to. But some of them I haven't revisited partly because I'm more interested in Mozart on old pianos, harpsichords and clavichords. That's why I was surprised and pleased to find myself enjoying the Horowitz.
>
> .

It should also be noted that I did not ask anyone to rec me anything...

"Conducting from the piano is not only an actual practice.
> Just have to return in the cave to listen to Anda, Gulda, Bernstein, Fischer, Mitropoulos, Walter....
> It could be great, as it could be great with a conductor.
> The only question is the game's rules....and the games level at the end!

Yes.

Gilels left several recordings of K595, including one from Moscow where he conducted the orchestra from the piano -- IMO it's well worth a listen."

Thanks for the information the Guilels was a discovering. There are beautiful moments during second movment. During this movment you truely heard Guilels sensitive ideas and choices. I confess I realy don't like the orchestra during first and third. Very slow but also many problems in sound equilibre. The vibrato and general lines of violin is also difficult.

On the subject of "who is conducting?" The Staier recording of the same 27°concerto is quite interresting. Gotfried von Goltz "seems" credited as conductor of the Freiburger barockorchester, but everybody know he is the first violin conducting from his violin..... so here we have someone "conducting" from violin....and , probably, Staier "co-conducting" from fortepiano!!...
The first movment as they played it is absolutly magnificent, a truely great Mozart moment. The second movment sound to me very good, with good tempo but really not useful poor appogiatura and banal formules add by Staier when the theme return. The third movment is too slow for me , as in many many recordings of this concerto. But it's only a subjective and sensitive personal point of vue.

On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 7:21:23 AM UTC+1, comptea...@gmail.com wrote:
> "Conducting from the piano is not only an actual practice.
> > Just have to return in the cave to listen to Anda, Gulda, Bernstein, Fischer, Mitropoulos, Walter....
> > It could be great, as it could be great with a conductor.
> > The only question is the game's rules....and the games level at the end!
>
> Yes.
>
> Gilels left several recordings of K595, including one from Moscow where he conducted the orchestra from the piano -- IMO it's well worth a listen."
>
> Thanks for the information the Guilels was a discovering. There are beautiful moments during second movment. During this movment you truely heard Guilels sensitive ideas and choices. I confess I realy don't like the orchestra during first and third. Very slow but also many problems in sound equilibre. The vibrato and general lines of violin is also difficult.
>
> On the subject of "who is conducting?" The Staier recording of the same 27°concerto is quite interresting. Gotfried von Goltz "seems" credited as conductor of the Freiburger barockorchester, but everybody know he is the first violin conducting from his violin..... so here we have someone "conducting" from violin....and , probably, Staier "co-conducting" from fortepiano!!...
> The first movment as they played it is absolutly magnificent, a truely great Mozart moment. The second movment sound to me very good, with good tempo but really not useful poor appogiatura and banal formules add by Staier when the theme return. The third movment is too slow for me , as in many many recordings of this concerto. But it's only a subjective and sensitive personal point of vue.

Gilels seemed to prefer slow tempos for Mozart. To me, the effect in 595 is to give the music a valedictory feeling, which I appreciate. I don’t know if this sort of response to a performance is subjective, but I’ll mention that for me, Aimard creates the same sort of effect.

> "Gilels seemed to prefer slow tempos for Mozart. To me, the effect in 595 is to give the music a valedictory feeling, which I appreciate. I don’t know if this sort of response to a performance is subjective, but I’ll mention that for me, Aimard creates the same sort of effect."

I realy have no problems with all perspectives. It could be sad to be unable to heard and HAVE SENSITIVE PLEASURE in hearing many incarnation of Mozart scores!
There are many slow tempi favored in this concerto and it give it a sort of philosofical tender mood. It put all the firdt movment in a large perspective. The very famous Casals-Horszowski from Perpignan is also slow and absolutly superb.
Guilels in concert with Ovchinnikov is something around 109. This is a "moderato" indication , not the "allegro" one choose by Mozart. But, again, I have no major problem with this. It give a romantic tranquille perspective, sometime quite massive but very impressive.
II don't know Aimard recording of Mozart 595.
For me, the interresting Allegro "original" tempo, give the possibility to heard the pulsation not only with 4 in one mesure (as with Guilels concert) but the possibility to heard pulsation as 2 in one mesure and also sometime by the mesure itself. It give the sensation of flying in music and give relief to all little motives contrasting ithout lacking the general philosofic sad colour --if the musician are able to find it everywhere in the movment.
Annie Fischer studio recording, but also Casadessus and Schnabel with Barbirolli have this choice (from 120 to 130).
The very old Toscanini - Serkin concert from 1936 is a sort of perfevtion in this way.
Staier with Goltz and Trevor Pinnock with Maria J Pires have the same tempo perspective.

I've spent some of this afternoon listening to Edwin Fischer's Danish K491 with the Danish Chamber Orchestra. It's just amazing! I know the concerto on record reasonably well, I think this self conducted performance is a summit. Does having him conduct and play at the same time add anything to the performance? I'll have to listen to the recording he made with Collingwood to say, I think it probably does, but I don't have time to listen now.