On 8/24/22 4:10 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 8/24/2022 5:55 PM, Kerrison wrote:
>> On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 6:15:18 PM UTC+1, Joe wrote:
>>> As good an excuse as any to post this fine poem:
>>>
>>> https://allpoetry.com/Church-Going
>>
>>
>> There's a fascinating filmed event on YouTube, in which the
>> proposition "Is religion a force for good in the world?" was discussed
>> by former British Prime Minister Tony Blair and author-journalist
>> Christopher Hitchens, who saw all religions as false, harmful and
>> authoritarian. In his discussion he quoted the physicist Stephen
>> Weinberger as saying that "in the ordinary moral universe, the good
>> will do the best they can, the worse will do the worst they can, but
>> if you want to make good people do wicked things, you'll need
>> religion." By the time he'd finished demolishing the stuttering,
>> on-the-defensive Tony Blair, the vast majority of the audience agreed
>> with Hitchens that religion was indeed not good for the world ...
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSJ5CrZ_3Pg&t=5321s
>
>
> Without taking a position, it is a lot easier to see and measure the
> harm religion does than the good.

Well, I'll take a position: the 'vast majority of the audience' was
wrong. Frank's comment clarifies why they might have thought the way
they did.

Bob Harper

On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 4:43:59 PM UTC-7, Bob Harper wrote:
> On 8/24/22 4:10 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
> > On 8/24/2022 5:55 PM, Kerrison wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 6:15:18 PM UTC+1, Joe wrote:
> >>> As good an excuse as any to post this fine poem:
> >>>
> >>> https://allpoetry.com/Church-Going
> >>
> >>
> >> There's a fascinating filmed event on YouTube, in which the
> >> proposition "Is religion a force for good in the world?" was discussed
> >> by former British Prime Minister Tony Blair and author-journalist
> >> Christopher Hitchens, who saw all religions as false, harmful and
> >> authoritarian. In his discussion he quoted the physicist Stephen
> >> Weinberger as saying that "in the ordinary moral universe, the good
> >> will do the best they can, the worse will do the worst they can, but
> >> if you want to make good people do wicked things, you'll need
> >> religion." By the time he'd finished demolishing the stuttering,
> >> on-the-defensive Tony Blair, the vast majority of the audience agreed
> >> with Hitchens that religion was indeed not good for the world ...
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSJ5CrZ_3Pg&t=5321s
> >
> >
> > Without taking a position, it is a lot easier to see and measure the
> > harm religion does than the good.
> Well, I'll take a position: the 'vast majority of the audience' was
> wrong. Frank's comment clarifies why they might have thought the way
> they did.
>
> Bob Harper

I think a majority if the audience was predisposed toward the Hitchens position before the first word of the debate was uttered.

A younger Chris Hitchens inveighed against Mother Teresa. An older Hitchens argued for the significance of Orwell.

Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 02:57:02 UTC+2 schreef number_six:

> A younger Chris Hitchens inveighed against Mother Teresa. An older Hitchens argued for the significance of Orwell.

He was right, in both cases. So too when he argues that institutionalized religions have done more harm than good.
This is all the more tragic because, according to Gauchet, these religions are based on a "religiosité incarnée". We will (probably) never be able to free ourselves from our religiousness.

Henk

On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 9:36:26 AM UTC-4, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 02:57:02 UTC+2 schreef number_six:
> > A younger Chris Hitchens inveighed against Mother Teresa. An older Hitchens argued for the significance of Orwell.
> He was right, in both cases. So too when he argues that institutionalized religions have done more harm than good.

> Henk

With all due respect Henk, neither Mr. Hitchens nor yourself have any way of knowing that. In order to conclusively know whether that is true or not you would have to go inside the heart and soul of anyone who has ever attended a Catholic Church, a Hindu temple, A Jewish synagogue, a Muslim mosque etc over many centuries You would have to go inside their hearts and see how their devotion to the Divine has changed them for the better. These transformations would be invisible to you and I, and therefore we don’t know about them and either did Mr. Hitchens. You would have to hear the sermons throughout history and see if they inspired people to aspire to a more spiritual life.

I’m not arguing with atheists here, but I would suggest regarding the late Mr. Hitchens and his followers that wisdom in any direction requires humility and the ability to say “I don’t know” when necessary.

On 8/25/2022 10:37 AM, JohnGavin wrote:
> On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 9:36:26 AM UTC-4, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
>> Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 02:57:02 UTC+2 schreef number_six:
>>> A younger Chris Hitchens inveighed against Mother Teresa. An older Hitchens argued for the significance of Orwell.
>> He was right, in both cases. So too when he argues that institutionalized religions have done more harm than good.
>
>> Henk
>
> With all due respect Henk, neither Mr. Hitchens nor yourself have any way of knowing that. In order to conclusively know whether that is true or not you would have to go inside the heart and soul of anyone who has ever attended a Catholic Church, a Hindu temple, A Jewish synagogue, a Muslim mosque etc over many centuries You would have to go inside their hearts and see how their devotion to the Divine has changed them for the better. These transformations would be invisible to you and I, and therefore we don’t know about them and either did Mr. Hitchens. You would have to hear the sermons throughout history and see if they inspired people to aspire to a more spiritual life.
>
> I’m not arguing with atheists here, but I would suggest regarding the late Mr. Hitchens and his followers that wisdom in any direction requires humility and the ability to say “I don’t know” when necessary.

Which is what I was getting at, though less eloquently. As an economist, of course, I look at the same thing in a different way. How much harm would have been done without religion? How many murders, robberies, rapes not take simply because of adherence to a code of behavior?

Another point is that some major conflicts often attributed to a clash of religions or the persecution of one religious group by another were really, cat their core, fights for territory or wealth or grudge. Were the Hatfields and the McCoys different in any respect, let alone religion? Are the Israelis and Palestinians fighting over religion?

Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 16:37:07 UTC+2 schreef JohnGavin:
> On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 9:36:26 AM UTC-4, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> > Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 02:57:02 UTC+2 schreef number_six:
> > > A younger Chris Hitchens inveighed against Mother Teresa. An older Hitchens argued for the significance of Orwell.
> > He was right, in both cases. So too when he argues that institutionalized religions have done more harm than good.
> > Henk
>
> With all due respect Henk, neither Mr. Hitchens nor yourself have any way of knowing that. In order to conclusively know whether that is true or not you would have to go inside the heart and soul of anyone who has ever attended a Catholic Church, a Hindu temple, A Jewish synagogue, a Muslim mosque etc over many centuries You would have to go inside their hearts and see how their devotion to the Divine has changed them for the better. These transformations would be invisible to you and I, and therefore we don’t know about them and either did Mr. Hitchens. You would have to hear the sermons throughout history and see if they inspired people to aspire to a more spiritual life.

You surprise me, John. Do you really believe that institutionalized religion has done more good than harm? What about the history of the great religions? To confine myself to Christianity, what about the missionary intent of colonization, perhaps the greatest crime against humanity ever? Do you really believe that the devotion of individuals compensates for all the harm done on a worldwide scale?

Henk

Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 19:10:40 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:

> Are the Israelis and Palestinians fighting over religion?

Would they have be fighting if they hadn't an institutionalized religion? If, for example, there hadn't been a promised land?

Henk

On 8/25/2022 1:16 PM, HT wrote:
> Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 16:37:07 UTC+2 schreef JohnGavin:
>> On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 9:36:26 AM UTC-4, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
>>> Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 02:57:02 UTC+2 schreef number_six:
>>>> A younger Chris Hitchens inveighed against Mother Teresa. An older Hitchens argued for the significance of Orwell.
>>> He was right, in both cases. So too when he argues that institutionalized religions have done more harm than good.
>>> Henk
>>
>> With all due respect Henk, neither Mr. Hitchens nor yourself have any way of knowing that. In order to conclusively know whether that is true or not you would have to go inside the heart and soul of anyone who has ever attended a Catholic Church, a Hindu temple, A Jewish synagogue, a Muslim mosque etc over many centuries You would have to go inside their hearts and see how their devotion to the Divine has changed them for the better. These transformations would be invisible to you and I, and therefore we don’t know about them and either did Mr. Hitchens. You would have to hear the sermons throughout history and see if they inspired people to aspire to a more spiritual life.
>
> You surprise me, John. Do you really believe that institutionalized religion has done more good than harm? What about the history of the great religions? To confine myself to Christianity, what about the missionary intent of colonization, perhaps the greatest crime against humanity ever? Do you really believe that the devotion of individuals compensates for all the harm done on a worldwide scale?
>
> Henk

Wait. To what extent would colonization have occurred even without the missionizing aspect? It was equally an economic undertaking. I bet all of it. Would it have been so brutal? I don't know. I should know more about this. I think one would have to be really careful not to let one's own views on missionizing (absent violence) color his analysis.

On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 1:16:51 PM UTC-4, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 16:37:07 UTC+2 schreef JohnGavin:
> > On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 9:36:26 AM UTC-4, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> > > Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 02:57:02 UTC+2 schreef number_six:
> > > > A younger Chris Hitchens inveighed against Mother Teresa. An older Hitchens argued for the significance of Orwell.
> > > He was right, in both cases. So too when he argues that institutionalized religions have done more harm than good.
> > > Henk
> >
> > With all due respect Henk, neither Mr. Hitchens nor yourself have any way of knowing that. In order to conclusively know whether that is true or not you would have to go inside the heart and soul of anyone who has ever attended a Catholic Church, a Hindu temple, A Jewish synagogue, a Muslim mosque etc over many centuries You would have to go inside their hearts and see how their devotion to the Divine has changed them for the better. These transformations would be invisible to you and I, and therefore we don’t know about them and either did Mr. Hitchens. You would have to hear the sermons throughout history and see if they inspired people to aspire to a more spiritual life.
> You surprise me, John. Do you really believe that institutionalized religion has done more good than harm? What about the history of the great religions?

I don’t know. That question is above anyone’s ability to answer. But I do know that planet earth is a plane of constant fluctuation. The pendulum swings from light to darkness and back again over the millennia. Did the fountainhead of Christianity demand that his followers colonize other countries and people? I don’t think so.

Maybe the era of organized religion is ending. It’s entirely possible. One person I respect said “there are as many paths to the Divine as there are seekers.” I believe it.

hvt...@xs4all.nl schrieb am Donnerstag, 25. August 2022 um 19:16:51 UTC+2:
> Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 16:37:07 UTC+2 schreef JohnGavin:
> > On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 9:36:26 AM UTC-4, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> > > Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 02:57:02 UTC+2 schreef number_six:
> > > > A younger Chris Hitchens inveighed against Mother Teresa. An older Hitchens argued for the significance of Orwell.
> > > He was right, in both cases. So too when he argues that institutionalized religions have done more harm than good.
> > > Henk
> >
> > With all due respect Henk, neither Mr. Hitchens nor yourself have any way of knowing that. In order to conclusively know whether that is true or not you would have to go inside the heart and soul of anyone who has ever attended a Catholic Church, a Hindu temple, A Jewish synagogue, a Muslim mosque etc over many centuries You would have to go inside their hearts and see how their devotion to the Divine has changed them for the better. These transformations would be invisible to you and I, and therefore we don’t know about them and either did Mr. Hitchens. You would have to hear the sermons throughout history and see if they inspired people to aspire to a more spiritual life.
> You surprise me, John. Do you really believe that institutionalized religion has done more good than harm? What about the history of the great religions? To confine myself to Christianity, what about the missionary intent of colonization, perhaps the greatest crime against humanity ever? Do you really believe that the devotion of individuals compensates for all the harm done on a worldwide scale?

So you think another 500 years of Aztecs butchering tens of thousands of people every year for the "Sun god" would have been better? Burning the widows in India? etc. Very often and probably overall colonialism was a net positive, I guess.
The connection of colonialism and christianity exists but it is tenous, there were over a 1000 years of christendom without colonialism and there was/is secularized colonialism/"holy wars", it's called "spreading democracy and getting Afghan girls to attend school" now. There will always be a religion, it might not be spiritual or called differently but fulfil at least some of the purposes, only usually in a distorted way.

You/we are all pseudo-christian atheists who take for granted the transformations of 1500+ years of (mostly Western) christendom and think one can now throw away the "superstitious ladder" that got us to secularized post-christian morality. Maybe we can, but it's far from clear that it will work (and a few decades of decadence were already enough to "forget" what males, females, families, humans actually are).
The world before, including the "civilized" Graecoroman world was of an utter callousness and brutality towards the weak (very different from today when simply claiming victim status often gets one a bonus). That's one hint, another is the quasi-assyrian brutality of the 20th century totalitarian ideologies. And the speed with which euthanasia and similar things come back in our historically naive post-christian pseudoreligious world, is another hint.

On 8/25/22 7:37 AM, JohnGavin wrote:
> On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 9:36:26 AM UTC-4, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
>> Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 02:57:02 UTC+2 schreef number_six:
>>> A younger Chris Hitchens inveighed against Mother Teresa. An older Hitchens argued for the significance of Orwell.
>> He was right, in both cases. So too when he argues that institutionalized religions have done more harm than good.
>
>> Henk
>
> With all due respect Henk, neither Mr. Hitchens nor yourself have any way of knowing that. In order to conclusively know whether that is true or not you would have to go inside the heart and soul of anyone who has ever attended a Catholic Church, a Hindu temple, A Jewish synagogue, a Muslim mosque etc over many centuries You would have to go inside their hearts and see how their devotion to the Divine has changed them for the better. These transformations would be invisible to you and I, and therefore we don’t know about them and either did Mr. Hitchens. You would have to hear the sermons throughout history and see if they inspired people to aspire to a more spiritual life.
>
> I’m not arguing with atheists here, but I would suggest regarding the late Mr. Hitchens and his followers that wisdom in any direction requires humility and the ability to say “I don’t know” when necessary.

I am reminded of the following story about the English novelist Evelyn
Waugh, who converted to Catholicism as an adult:

There is a well-known story about the novelist Evelyn Waugh. He was once
very rude and his hostess remonstrated: “How can you behave so badly –
and you a Catholic!” Waugh replied: “You have no idea how much nastier I
would be if I was not a Catholic. Without supernatural aid I would
hardly be a human being.”

He was right, as I know full well.

Bob Harper

On 8/25/22 10:16 AM, HT wrote:
> Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 16:37:07 UTC+2 schreef JohnGavin:
>> On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 9:36:26 AM UTC-4, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
>>> Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 02:57:02 UTC+2 schreef number_six:
>>>> A younger Chris Hitchens inveighed against Mother Teresa. An older Hitchens argued for the significance of Orwell.
>>> He was right, in both cases. So too when he argues that institutionalized religions have done more harm than good.
>>> Henk
>>
>> With all due respect Henk, neither Mr. Hitchens nor yourself have any way of knowing that. In order to conclusively know whether that is true or not you would have to go inside the heart and soul of anyone who has ever attended a Catholic Church, a Hindu temple, A Jewish synagogue, a Muslim mosque etc over many centuries You would have to go inside their hearts and see how their devotion to the Divine has changed them for the better. These transformations would be invisible to you and I, and therefore we don’t know about them and either did Mr. Hitchens. You would have to hear the sermons throughout history and see if they inspired people to aspire to a more spiritual life.
>
> You surprise me, John. Do you really believe that institutionalized religion has done more good than harm? What about the history of the great religions? To confine myself to Christianity, what about the missionary intent of colonization, perhaps the greatest crime against humanity ever? Do you really believe that the devotion of individuals compensates for all the harm done on a worldwide scale?
>
> Henk

Henk,

Certainly many great sins are laid at the feet of colonialism, but can
you seriously argue that the overthrow of the Aztec Empire by Cortes and
his men, supported by the tribes who were the victims of the Aztecs'
bloodthirsty religion, did more harm than good?

Bob Harper

On 8/25/22 10:43 AM, JohnGavin wrote:
> On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 1:16:51 PM UTC-4, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
>> Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 16:37:07 UTC+2 schreef JohnGavin:
>>> On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 9:36:26 AM UTC-4, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
>>>> Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 02:57:02 UTC+2 schreef number_six:
>>>>> A younger Chris Hitchens inveighed against Mother Teresa. An older Hitchens argued for the significance of Orwell.
>>>> He was right, in both cases. So too when he argues that institutionalized religions have done more harm than good.
>>>> Henk
>>>
>>> With all due respect Henk, neither Mr. Hitchens nor yourself have any way of knowing that. In order to conclusively know whether that is true or not you would have to go inside the heart and soul of anyone who has ever attended a Catholic Church, a Hindu temple, A Jewish synagogue, a Muslim mosque etc over many centuries You would have to go inside their hearts and see how their devotion to the Divine has changed them for the better. These transformations would be invisible to you and I, and therefore we don’t know about them and either did Mr. Hitchens. You would have to hear the sermons throughout history and see if they inspired people to aspire to a more spiritual life.
>> You surprise me, John. Do you really believe that institutionalized religion has done more good than harm? What about the history of the great religions?
>
> I don’t know. That question is above anyone’s ability to answer. But I do know that planet earth is a plane of constant fluctuation. The pendulum swings from light to darkness and back again over the millennia. Did the fountainhead of Christianity demand that his followers colonize other countries and people? I don’t think so.
>
> Maybe the era of organized religion is ending. It’s entirely possible. One person I respect said “there are as many paths to the Divine as there are seekers.” I believe it.
>
>
>
Actually, what He said was, "Go, and make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the
Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you."

Human beings have screwed that up time and again, which is to say that
sin is real, but it remains the noble ideal.

Bob Harper

Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 20:39:44 UTC+2 schreef Bob Harper:

> Certainly many great sins are laid at the feet of colonialism, but can
> you seriously argue that the overthrow of the Aztec Empire by Cortes and
> his men, supported by the tribes who were the victims of the Aztecs'
> bloodthirsty religion, did more harm than good?

Cortez did overthrow Aztec rule and replaced it by Spanish rule. He replaced the original state religion by the state religion of Spain.
You believe that he did more good than harm.
Look at Mexico and its original inhabitants (those who survived our 'beneficial' presence), do they have any reason at all to be grateful for our intervention or are they still struggling with having lost their freedom, religion, culture and property?

Henk

On 8/25/2022 1:43 PM, JohnGavin wrote:
> On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 1:16:51 PM UTC-4, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
>> Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 16:37:07 UTC+2 schreef JohnGavin:
>>> On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 9:36:26 AM UTC-4, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
>>>> Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 02:57:02 UTC+2 schreef number_six:
>>>>> A younger Chris Hitchens inveighed against Mother Teresa. An older Hitchens argued for the significance of Orwell.
>>>> He was right, in both cases. So too when he argues that institutionalized religions have done more harm than good.
>>>> Henk
>>>
>>> With all due respect Henk, neither Mr. Hitchens nor yourself have any way of knowing that. In order to conclusively know whether that is true or not you would have to go inside the heart and soul of anyone who has ever attended a Catholic Church, a Hindu temple, A Jewish synagogue, a Muslim mosque etc over many centuries You would have to go inside their hearts and see how their devotion to the Divine has changed them for the better. These transformations would be invisible to you and I, and therefore we don’t know about them and either did Mr. Hitchens. You would have to hear the sermons throughout history and see if they inspired people to aspire to a more spiritual life.
>> You surprise me, John. Do you really believe that institutionalized religion has done more good than harm? What about the history of the great religions?
>
> I don’t know. That question is above anyone’s ability to answer. But I do know that planet earth is a plane of constant fluctuation. The pendulum swings from light to darkness and back again over the millennia. Did the fountainhead of Christianity demand that his followers colonize other countries and people? I don’t think so.

A critical point. Much of the "damage" caused by religion would have been done anyway, simply because of our nature. It is naive and unscientific to pronounce religion evil based only on the simplest surface information.

>
> Maybe the era of organized religion is ending. It’s entirely possible. One person I respect said “there are as many paths to the Divine as there are seekers.” I believe it.
>
>
>

On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 10:42:11 AM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 8/25/2022 1:16 PM, HT wrote:
> > Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 16:37:07 UTC+2 schreef JohnGavin:
> >> On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 9:36:26 AM UTC-4, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> >>> Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 02:57:02 UTC+2 schreef number_six:
> >>>> A younger Chris Hitchens inveighed against Mother Teresa. An older Hitchens argued for the significance of Orwell.
> >>> He was right, in both cases. So too when he argues that institutionalized religions have done more harm than good.
> >>> Henk
> >>
> >> With all due respect Henk, neither Mr. Hitchens nor yourself have any way of knowing that. In order to conclusively know whether that is true or not you would have to go inside the heart and soul of anyone who has ever attended a Catholic Church, a Hindu temple, A Jewish synagogue, a Muslim mosque etc over many centuries You would have to go inside their hearts and see how their devotion to the Divine has changed them for the better. These transformations would be invisible to you and I, and therefore we don’t know about them and either did Mr. Hitchens. You would have to hear the sermons throughout history and see if they inspired people to aspire to a more spiritual life.
> >
> > You surprise me, John. Do you really believe that institutionalized religion has done more good than harm? What about the history of the great religions? To confine myself to Christianity, what about the missionary intent of colonization, perhaps the greatest crime against humanity ever? Do you really believe that the devotion of individuals compensates for all the harm done on a worldwide scale?
> >
> > Henk
> Wait. To what extent would colonization have occurred even without the missionizing aspect? It was equally an economic undertaking. I bet all of it. Would it have been so brutal? I don't know. I should know more about this. I think one would have to be really careful not to let one's own views on missionizing (absent violence) color his analysis.

Isn't this the formula for colonization?:

- Missionaries, merchants, militants

Or

Christianity, capitalism, conquest

Concerning the brutality of colonization, wasn't it because the colonial leaders would lose their jobs if they didn't meet the quotas and deadlines set for them by their bosses in the home country?

On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 12:37:57 PM UTC-7, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 20:39:44 UTC+2 schreef Bob Harper:
> > Certainly many great sins are laid at the feet of colonialism, but can
> > you seriously argue that the overthrow of the Aztec Empire by Cortes and
> > his men, supported by the tribes who were the victims of the Aztecs'
> > bloodthirsty religion, did more harm than good?
> Cortez did overthrow Aztec rule and replaced it by Spanish rule. He replaced the original state religion by the state religion of Spain.
> You believe that he did more good than harm.
> Look at Mexico and its original inhabitants (those who survived our 'beneficial' presence), do they have any reason at all to be grateful for our intervention or are they still struggling with having lost their freedom, religion, culture and property?
>
> Henk

- When the people contend for their liberty, they seldom get anything by their victory but new masters.

George Savile

On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 10:42:11 AM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 8/25/2022 1:16 PM, HT wrote:
> > Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 16:37:07 UTC+2 schreef JohnGavin:
> >> On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 9:36:26 AM UTC-4, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> >>> Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 02:57:02 UTC+2 schreef number_six:
> >>>> A younger Chris Hitchens inveighed against Mother Teresa. An older Hitchens argued for the significance of Orwell.
> >>> He was right, in both cases. So too when he argues that institutionalized religions have done more harm than good.
> >>> Henk
> >>
> >> With all due respect Henk, neither Mr. Hitchens nor yourself have any way of knowing that. In order to conclusively know whether that is true or not you would have to go inside the heart and soul of anyone who has ever attended a Catholic Church, a Hindu temple, A Jewish synagogue, a Muslim mosque etc over many centuries You would have to go inside their hearts and see how their devotion to the Divine has changed them for the better. These transformations would be invisible to you and I, and therefore we don’t know about them and either did Mr. Hitchens. You would have to hear the sermons throughout history and see if they inspired people to aspire to a more spiritual life.
> >
> > You surprise me, John. Do you really believe that institutionalized religion has done more good than harm? What about the history of the great religions? To confine myself to Christianity, what about the missionary intent of colonization, perhaps the greatest crime against humanity ever? Do you really believe that the devotion of individuals compensates for all the harm done on a worldwide scale?
> >
> > Henk
> Wait. To what extent would colonization have occurred even without the missionizing aspect? It was equally an economic undertaking. I bet all of it. Would it have been so brutal? I don't know. I should know more about this. I think one would have to be really careful not to let one's own views on missionizing (absent violence) color his analysis.

Wasn't this the formula for colonization?:

- Missionaries, merchants, militants

Or

Christianity, capitalism, conquest

Concerning the brutality of colonization, wasn't it because the colonial leaders were themselves at the mercy of their bosses in their respective home countries?, i.e., they would lose their jobs if they didn't meet the quotas and deadlines set for them by their respective bosses in the home country?

On 8/25/2022 2:35 PM, Bob Harper wrote:
> On 8/25/22 7:37 AM, JohnGavin wrote:
>> On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 9:36:26 AM UTC-4, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
>>> Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 02:57:02 UTC+2 schreef number_six:
>>>> A younger Chris Hitchens inveighed against Mother Teresa. An older Hitchens argued for the significance of Orwell.
>>> He was right, in both cases. So too when he argues that institutionalized religions have done more harm than good.
>>
>>> Henk
>>
>> With all due respect Henk, neither Mr. Hitchens nor yourself have any way of knowing that. In order to conclusively know whether that is true or not you would have to go inside the heart and soul of anyone who has ever attended a Catholic Church, a Hindu temple, A Jewish synagogue, a Muslim mosque etc over many centuries  You would have to go inside their hearts and see how their devotion to the Divine has changed them for the better.  These transformations would be invisible to you and I, and therefore we don’t know about them and either did Mr. Hitchens.   You would have to hear the sermons throughout history and see if they inspired people to aspire to a more spiritual life.
>>
>> I’m not arguing with atheists here, but I would suggest regarding the late Mr. Hitchens and his followers that wisdom in any direction requires humility and the ability to say “I don’t know” when necessary.
>
> I am reminded of the following story about the English novelist Evelyn Waugh, who converted to Catholicism as an adult:
>
> There is a well-known story about the novelist Evelyn Waugh. He was once very rude and his hostess remonstrated: “How can you behave so badly – and you a Catholic!” Waugh replied: “You have no idea how much nastier I would be if I was not a Catholic. Without supernatural aid I would hardly be a human being.”
>
> He was right, as I know full well.
>
> Bob Harper

I know an orthodox rabbi, who has told me has a violent nature and it is only the discipline if Judaism that has allowed him to lead a peaceful, productive life. How seriously too take this remark, I'm not sure. But it is not to be dismissed, either. And I am not pushing Judaism here. It is certainly possible that a totally different discipline, possible not even religious, would have served as well.

On 8/25/2022 2:39 PM, Bob Harper wrote:
> On 8/25/22 10:16 AM, HT wrote:
>> Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 16:37:07 UTC+2 schreef JohnGavin:
>>> On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 9:36:26 AM UTC-4, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
>>>> Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 02:57:02 UTC+2 schreef number_six:
>>>>> A younger Chris Hitchens inveighed against Mother Teresa. An older Hitchens argued for the significance of Orwell.
>>>> He was right, in both cases. So too when he argues that institutionalized religions have done more harm than good.
>>>> Henk
>>>
>>> With all due respect Henk, neither Mr. Hitchens nor yourself have any way of knowing that. In order to conclusively know whether that is true or not you would have to go inside the heart and soul of anyone who has ever attended a Catholic Church, a Hindu temple, A Jewish synagogue, a Muslim mosque etc over many centuries You would have to go inside their hearts and see how their devotion to the Divine has changed them for the better. These transformations would be invisible to you and I, and therefore we don’t know about them and either did Mr. Hitchens. You would have to hear the sermons throughout history and see if they inspired people to aspire to a more spiritual life.
>>
>> You surprise me, John. Do you really believe that institutionalized religion has done more good than harm? What about the history of the great religions? To confine myself to Christianity, what about the missionary intent of colonization, perhaps the greatest crime against humanity ever? Do you really believe that the devotion of individuals compensates for all the harm done on a worldwide scale?
>>
>> Henk
>
> Henk,
>
> Certainly many great sins are laid at the feet of colonialism, but can you seriously argue that the overthrow of the Aztec Empire by Cortes and his men, supported by the tribes who were the victims of the Aztecs' bloodthirsty religion, did more harm than good?
>
Neil Young thinks so, and that's good enough for me. One of my favorite Young songs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOfg6ZxM1Qc

He came dancing across the water
With his galleons and guns
Looking for the new world
In that palace in the sun
On the shore lay Montezuma
With his cocoa leaves and pearls
In his halls, he often wandered
With the secrets of the worlds
And his subjects gathered round him
Like the leaves around a tree
In their clothes of many colors
For the angry gods to see
And the women all were beautiful
And the men stood straight and strong
They offered life in sacrifice
So that others could go on
Hate was just a legend
And war was never known
The people worked together
And they lifted many stones
They carried them to the flatlands
And they died along the way
But they built up with their bare hands
What we still can't build today
And I know she's living there
And she loves me to this day
I still can't remember when
Or how I lost my way
Cortez, Cortez
He came dancing across the water
Cortez, Cortez
What a killer

> Bob Harper

On 8/25/2022 3:37 PM, HT wrote:
> Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 20:39:44 UTC+2 schreef Bob Harper:
>
>> Certainly many great sins are laid at the feet of colonialism, but can
>> you seriously argue that the overthrow of the Aztec Empire by Cortes and
>> his men, supported by the tribes who were the victims of the Aztecs'
>> bloodthirsty religion, did more harm than good?
>
> Cortez did overthrow Aztec rule and replaced it by Spanish rule. He replaced the original state religion by the state religion of Spain.
> You believe that he did more good than harm.
> Look at Mexico and its original inhabitants (those who survived our 'beneficial' presence), do they have any reason at all to be grateful for our intervention or are they still struggling with having lost their freedom, religion, culture and property?
>
> Henk
>

Depends on whether you think they have been saved, doesn't it? If come to the question having already decided that there is no good, no value in religion (Christianity in this case), then the question is already decided.

On 8/25/2022 1:21 PM, HT wrote:
> Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 19:10:40 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:
>
>> Are the Israelis and Palestinians fighting over religion?
>
> Would they have be fighting if they hadn't an institutionalized religion? If, for example, there hadn't been a promised land?
>
> Henk

Boy, I'm going to have to think about how to answer that.

On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 1:44:10 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 8/25/2022 1:21 PM, HT wrote:
> > Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 19:10:40 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:
> >
> >> Are the Israelis and Palestinians fighting over religion?

Not really. It is all about land. Religion is nothing more than
a convenient pseudo-moral justification.

> > Would they have be fighting if they hadn't an institutionalized
> > religion? If, for example, there hadn't been a promised land?

Israel wants/needs the lands for security. The Palestinians
want/need the land to make a living. This is plainly obvious.

> Boy, I'm going to have to think about how to answer that.

Don't think too hard. Ask the rabbies for a binding opinion. ;-)

dk

> Depends on whether you think they have been saved, doesn't it? If come to the question having already decided that there is no good, no value in religion (Christianity in this case), then the question is already decided.

<g> If they light their candles, carry their saints around the church, and celebrate the right feasts at the right times, they are certainly "saved" - and the more they are saved, the clearer our victory!

Henk

On 8/25/2022 4:50 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 1:44:10 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 8/25/2022 1:21 PM, HT wrote:
>>> Op donderdag 25 augustus 2022 om 19:10:40 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:
>>>
>>>> Are the Israelis and Palestinians fighting over religion?
>
> Not really. It is all about land. Religion is nothing more than
> a convenient pseudo-moral justification.
>

I thought the question was rhetorical. But I agree.

>>> Would they have be fighting if they hadn't an institutionalized
>>> religion? If, for example, there hadn't been a promised land?
>
> Israel wants/needs the lands for security. The Palestinians
> want/need the land to make a living. This is plainly obvious.
>
>> Boy, I'm going to have to think about how to answer that.
>
> Don't think too hard. Ask the rabbies for a binding opinion. ;-)
>
> dk

I considered answering that the land was only promised to one of the two parties, but decided not to. Oops.