Defekt (LitenVerse, book 2) by Nino Cipri
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/everythings-broken
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 9:29:50 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> Defekt (LitenVerse, book 2) by Nino Cipri
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/everythings-broken
> --

The commentariat gigged James for Unwoke Pronoun Use!

Has the self-criticism session been scheduled, or is surprise
one of the chief weapons of the Fannish Inquisition?

...and how will we know that we are in "late capitalism," until the
era is over? "Modern-day capitalism" would be a more modest,
and more accurate label.† Of course, the Marxists assume it is "late,"
but their ruling era in the CCCP ended rather abruptly, and in a mode
not predicted by the classic form of their "religion".*

* Yes, technically a ghodless philosophy, but so is pure-drop
Buddhism, which also depends on assumed woo-woo, with
or without the accretion of ghodz to the original "canon."

† Some of us who care about the nomenclature don't like to use
"capitalism," as it is a term dreamed up by those who disdain
"voluntary exchange economies," to crib from Unca Miltie
Friedman. Others have icked it up and flown the word as
a flag, the way the subjects of other slurs have done.

--
Kevin R

Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> The commentariat gigged James for Unwoke Pronoun Use!
>

Using someone's preferred title or, yes, pronouns when talking
about them is not a matter of being woke, but of being courteous.

I don't know about James, but if I was being unintentionally
discorteous I wouldn't mind someone pointing it out so I could
correct that.

--
Leif Roar Moldskred
It's just manners.

In article <msednQ1yLr3-DRL9nZ2dnUU78b-dnZ2d@giganews.com>,
Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@huldreheim.Home> wrote:
>Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>
>> The commentariat gigged James for Unwoke Pronoun Use!
>>
>
>Using someone's preferred title or, yes, pronouns when talking
>about them is not a matter of being woke, but of being courteous.
>
>I don't know about James, but if I was being unintentionally
>discorteous I wouldn't mind someone pointing it out so I could
>correct that.
>
As far as I can tell, I referred to Nino by the pronoun they. Did
I get it wrong somewhere?
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

In article <msednQ1yLr3-DRL9nZ2dnUU78b-dnZ2d@giganews.com>,
Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@huldreheim.Home> wrote:
>Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>
>> The commentariat gigged James for Unwoke Pronoun Use!
>>
>
>Using someone's preferred title or, yes, pronouns when talking
>about them is not a matter of being woke, but of being courteous.
>
As I understand it, amongst the keeping kids in cages crowd, using
pronouns other than he or she is considered as egregious as accepting
the results of a federal election.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
>
> As far as I can tell, I referred to Nino by the pronoun they. Did
> I get it wrong somewhere?

Not as far as I can see, no.

Actually, I mistook the comment someone posted on your review to be
about the author rather than one of the characters (although as far
as I can see you haven't used a gendered pronoun for that character
anywhere either.) I just assumed there had originally been an occurence
of it in the text to have provoked the comment, and that you had just
corrected it when it was pointed out.

My mistake, obviously.

--
Leif Roar Moldskred

On Sun, 2 May 2021 15:25:28 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com>
wrote:

>On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 9:29:50 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Defekt (LitenVerse, book 2) by Nino Cipri
>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/everythings-broken
>> --
>
>The commentariat gigged James for Unwoke Pronoun Use!
>
>Has the self-criticism session been scheduled, or is surprise
>one of the chief weapons of the Fannish Inquisition?
>
>..and how will we know that we are in "late capitalism," until the
>era is over? "Modern-day capitalism" would be a more modest,

We don't.

We have no idea what /this/ time will be considered 500 years from
now. "The Later Dark Ages", for all /we/ know.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Mon, 3 May 2021 13:26:45 +0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
Nicoll) wrote:

>In article <msednQ1yLr3-DRL9nZ2dnUU78b-dnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@huldreheim.Home> wrote:
>>Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The commentariat gigged James for Unwoke Pronoun Use!
>>>
>>
>>Using someone's preferred title or, yes, pronouns when talking
>>about them is not a matter of being woke, but of being courteous.
>>
>As I understand it, amongst the keeping kids in cages crowd, using
>pronouns other than he or she is considered as egregious as accepting
>the results of a federal election.

And some Republican-controlled States are making the madness ... the
Law.

Oh, well, what else can you expect when you put Republicans in charge?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Monday, May 3, 2021 at 9:03:11 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <msednQ1yLr3-DRL9...@giganews.com>,
> Leif Roar Moldskred <le...@huldreheim.Home> wrote:
> >Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> The commentariat gigged James for Unwoke Pronoun Use!
> >>
> >
> >Using someone's preferred title or, yes, pronouns when talking
> >about them is not a matter of being woke, but of being courteous.
> >
> >I don't know about James, but if I was being unintentionally
> >discorteous I wouldn't mind someone pointing it out so I could
> >correct that.
> >
> As far as I can tell, I referred to Nino by the pronoun they. Did
> I get it wrong somewhere?

From Nino's own website: "They are represented by DongWon
Song of the Howard Morhaim Agency."

- so I think you're clear.

Pt

On Mon, 3 May 2021 13:03:07 +0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
Nicoll) wrote:

>In article <msednQ1yLr3-DRL9nZ2dnUU78b-dnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@huldreheim.Home> wrote:
>>Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The commentariat gigged James for Unwoke Pronoun Use!
>>>
>>
>>Using someone's preferred title or, yes, pronouns when talking
>>about them is not a matter of being woke, but of being courteous.
>>
>>I don't know about James, but if I was being unintentionally
>>discorteous I wouldn't mind someone pointing it out so I could
>>correct that.
>>
>As far as I can tell, I referred to Nino by the pronoun they. Did
>I get it wrong somewhere?

I don't generally read book reviews. No matter who they are by.

That's what I see when I read /this/ review, but in the review of
/Finna/ you appear to have used "her" for Jules:

Ava has her issues, Jules has her issues, and the two sets interact in
toxic ways.

which may explain the /second/ post, but not the first.

--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

In article <cp909gdqfc840amffh8cjptr4o0981eg0h@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Mon, 3 May 2021 13:03:07 +0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
>Nicoll) wrote:
>
>>In article <msednQ1yLr3-DRL9nZ2dnUU78b-dnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>>Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@huldreheim.Home> wrote:
>>>Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The commentariat gigged James for Unwoke Pronoun Use!
>>>>
>>>
>>>Using someone's preferred title or, yes, pronouns when talking
>>>about them is not a matter of being woke, but of being courteous.
>>>
>>>I don't know about James, but if I was being unintentionally
>>>discorteous I wouldn't mind someone pointing it out so I could
>>>correct that.
>>>
>>As far as I can tell, I referred to Nino by the pronoun they. Did
>>I get it wrong somewhere?
>
>I don't generally read book reviews. No matter who they are by.
>
>That's what I see when I read /this/ review, but in the review of
>/Finna/ you appear to have used "her" for Jules:
>
>Ava has her issues, Jules has her issues, and the two sets interact in
>toxic ways.
>
>which may explain the /second/ post, but not the first.

Fuck. I will go fix that.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Monday, 3 May 2021 at 17:42:58 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Mon, 3 May 2021 13:03:07 +0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
> Nicoll) wrote:
>
> >In article <msednQ1yLr3-DRL9...@giganews.com>,
> >Leif Roar Moldskred <le...@huldreheim.Home> wrote:
> >>Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> The commentariat gigged James for Unwoke Pronoun Use!
> >>>
> >>
> >>Using someone's preferred title or, yes, pronouns when talking
> >>about them is not a matter of being woke, but of being courteous.
> >>
> >>I don't know about James, but if I was being unintentionally
> >>discorteous I wouldn't mind someone pointing it out so I could
> >>correct that.
> >>
> >As far as I can tell, I referred to Nino by the pronoun they. Did
> >I get it wrong somewhere?
> I don't generally read book reviews. No matter who they are by.
>
> That's what I see when I read /this/ review, but in the review of
> /Finna/ you appear to have used "her" for Jules:
>
> Ava has her issues, Jules has her issues, and the two sets interact in
> toxic ways.
>
> which may explain the /second/ post, but not the first.

"Sister universes" perhaps. ;-)

It could be an old and/or offensive joke but:
nalbar jub bowrpgf gb srzvavar cebabhaf unf "ure" vffhrf.

I don't remember if last time, I commented on the
ASDA-y logo with or without noticing that the cover
of FINNA is decorated with bolts, nuts, and Allen keys.
Joking, or just unobservant?

On Mon, 03 May 2021 00:55:47 -0500, Leif Roar Moldskred
<leifm@huldreheim.Home> wrote:

>Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>
>> The commentariat gigged James for Unwoke Pronoun Use!
>>
>
>Using someone's preferred title or, yes, pronouns when talking
>about them is not a matter of being woke, but of being courteous.
>
>I don't know about James, but if I was being unintentionally
>discorteous I wouldn't mind someone pointing it out so I could
>correct that.

Generally I agree with you BUT I will not use made up pronouns (Ze,
Zhir etc) - I'll call them by name instead of pronouns instead. I
respect the English language and will not defecate on it.

In article <s541eghjttd5kvufieljcbaips0ioqijam@4ax.com>,
The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>On Mon, 03 May 2021 00:55:47 -0500, Leif Roar Moldskred
><leifm@huldreheim.Home> wrote:
>
>>Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The commentariat gigged James for Unwoke Pronoun Use!
>>>
>>
>>Using someone's preferred title or, yes, pronouns when talking
>>about them is not a matter of being woke, but of being courteous.
>>
>>I don't know about James, but if I was being unintentionally
>>discorteous I wouldn't mind someone pointing it out so I could
>>correct that.
>
>Generally I agree with you BUT I will not use made up pronouns (Ze,
>Zhir etc) - I'll call them by name instead of pronouns instead. I
>respect the English language and will not defecate on it.

It may sound like I am laughing at you but only because I am in fact
laughing at you.

[A certain quotation goes here]

What's your cut-off date for real English words vs new usages that
sully it?
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

In article <s541eghjttd5kvufieljcbaips0ioqijam@4ax.com>,
The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>On Mon, 03 May 2021 00:55:47 -0500, Leif Roar Moldskred
><leifm@huldreheim.Home> wrote:
>
>>Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The commentariat gigged James for Unwoke Pronoun Use!
>>>
>>
>>Using someone's preferred title or, yes, pronouns when talking
>>about them is not a matter of being woke, but of being courteous.
>>
>>I don't know about James, but if I was being unintentionally
>>discorteous I wouldn't mind someone pointing it out so I could
>>correct that.
>
>Generally I agree with you BUT I will not use made up pronouns (Ze,
>Zhir etc) - I'll call them by name instead of pronouns instead. I
>respect the English language and will not defecate on it.

Becky Chambers uses "xie" (pronounced Z; I asked her) for all
genders, all species, no matter how many genders they have. And
at least one species has genders that are determined by social
role.

And Graydon Saunders's Commonweal stories have a character named
Halt (simultaneously creepy and benevolent) who has no pronouns
at all; one speaks of Halt doing whatever Halt wants to do, all
in Halt's good time. (Halt's date of birth is recorded as "the
memory of man runneth not to the contrary".)

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

On Saturday, July 3, 2021 at 12:32:37 PM UTC-4, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Mon, 03 May 2021 00:55:47 -0500, Leif Roar Moldskred
> <le...@huldreheim.Home> wrote:
>
> >Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> The commentariat gigged James for Unwoke Pronoun Use!
> >>
> >
> >Using someone's preferred title or, yes, pronouns when talking
> >about them is not a matter of being woke, but of being courteous.
> >
> >I don't know about James, but if I was being unintentionally
> >discorteous I wouldn't mind someone pointing it out so I could
> >correct that.
> Generally I agree with you BUT I will not use made up pronouns (Ze,
> Zhir etc) - I'll call them by name instead of pronouns instead. I
> respect the English language and will not defecate on it.

I recall people with the same attitude towards Ms in the early 70s ("But it
means Manuscript!"). A man may have mistaken his wife for a hat, but
it isn't clear to me that a woman has yet been mistaken for a manuscript.

Nero Wolfe, that woke fella, pointed out over seventy years ago that we
need more pronouns in English.

If you don't accept new pronouns, you're going to get "they" instead. The new
pronouns add to the language, singular they detracts from it. I have already
run into problems with it on several occasions. "Ze" or "Zhe" would have
worked much better for me.

Whether they will ever agree on a consistent set of such is an open question.

William Hyde

In article <99f14957-5946-4957-bfb3-75123f23d4cbn@googlegroups.com>,
William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>If you don't accept new pronouns, you're going to get "they" instead. The new
>pronouns add to the language, singular they detracts from it. I have already
>run into problems with it on several occasions. "Ze" or "Zhe" would have
>worked much better for me.

I've already mentioned that IMO, before the end of this century
"they" will have replaced all third-person pronouns, ignoring
both gender and number, just as "you" replaced all second-person
pronouns, ignoring both number and social rank.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

In article <qvovrF.1BCM@kithrup.com>,
Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:

>I've already mentioned that IMO, before the end of this century
>"they" will have replaced all third-person pronouns, ignoring
>both gender and number, just as "you" replaced all second-person
>pronouns, ignoring both number and social rank.

And this is a good thing.

Plenty of languages lack grammatical gender; we shouldn't take the
Indo-European default as normative just because a history of colonial
expansion makes it very common today. Many other languages have more
than just two or three noun classifications. Even English has almost
entirely lost gender concord for everything except pronouns and a few
fussy adjectives borrowed from French.

We English speakers don't need more pronouns. (Some other language
communities may, but that's up to the speakers of those languages to
figure out collectively, through the normal process of cultural
evolution.)

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

On 7/3/2021 1:49 PM, William Hyde wrote:
> On Saturday, July 3, 2021 at 12:32:37 PM UTC-4, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Mon, 03 May 2021 00:55:47 -0500, Leif Roar Moldskred
>> <le...@huldreheim.Home> wrote:
>>
>>> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The commentariat gigged James for Unwoke Pronoun Use!
>>>>
>>>
>>> Using someone's preferred title or, yes, pronouns when talking
>>> about them is not a matter of being woke, but of being courteous.
>>>
>>> I don't know about James, but if I was being unintentionally
>>> discorteous I wouldn't mind someone pointing it out so I could
>>> correct that.
>> Generally I agree with you BUT I will not use made up pronouns (Ze,
>> Zhir etc) - I'll call them by name instead of pronouns instead. I
>> respect the English language and will not defecate on it.
>
> I recall people with the same attitude towards Ms in the early 70s ("But it
> means Manuscript!"). A man may have mistaken his wife for a hat, but
> it isn't clear to me that a woman has yet been mistaken for a manuscript.
>
> Nero Wolfe, that woke fella, pointed out over seventy years ago that we
> need more pronouns in English.
>
> If you don't accept new pronouns, you're going to get "they" instead. The new
> pronouns add to the language, singular they detracts from it. I have already
> run into problems with it on several occasions. "Ze" or "Zhe" would have
> worked much better for me.
>
> Whether they will ever agree on a consistent set of such is an open question.
>
That will depend on how long the people insisting on new pronouns keep
demanding new ones as soon as their last demand is being met just so
they can keep rubbing other people's faces in their own difference from
"normal" people.

--
Troll, troll, troll your post gently down the thread
Angrily, angrily, angrily, the net's a nut's scream.

On 2021-07-03 3:59 p.m., Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <99f14957-5946-4957-bfb3-75123f23d4cbn@googlegroups.com>,
> William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> If you don't accept new pronouns, you're going to get "they" instead. The new
>> pronouns add to the language, singular they detracts from it. I have already
>> run into problems with it on several occasions. "Ze" or "Zhe" would have
>> worked much better for me.
>
> I've already mentioned that IMO, before the end of this century
> "they" will have replaced all third-person pronouns, ignoring
> both gender and number, just as "you" replaced all second-person
> pronouns, ignoring both number and social rank.
>
>
>

I doubt it. But there is a kind of fiction where it is standard practice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSDCEZ1ep44&t=7s&ab_channel=DangerousASMR

On Sat, 3 Jul 2021 13:49:41 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
<wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

>I recall people with the same attitude towards Ms in the early 70s ("But it
>means Manuscript!"). A man may have mistaken his wife for a hat, but
>it isn't clear to me that a woman has yet been mistaken for a manuscript.

Well, there was Mitt Romney's "binder full of women."

--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Tom Derringer & the Steam-Powered Saurians.

On Sunday, July 4, 2021 at 3:51:30 PM UTC-4, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Jul 2021 13:49:41 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
> <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I recall people with the same attitude towards Ms in the early 70s ("But it
> >means Manuscript!"). A man may have mistaken his wife for a hat, but
> >it isn't clear to me that a woman has yet been mistaken for a manuscript.
> Well, there was Mitt Romney's "binder full of women."

Also Fritz Leiber's "Desk Full of Girls". Though that didn't work out well for the
desk owner.

Wait ... you set me up for that, didn't you? You wanted to subtly bring some SF back
to an SF group. Cunning devil!

William Hyde

On Sat, 03 Jul 2021 13:49:41 -0700, William Hyde wrote:

> On Saturday, July 3, 2021 at 12:32:37 PM UTC-4, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Mon, 03 May 2021 00:55:47 -0500, Leif Roar Moldskred
>> <le...@huldreheim.Home> wrote:
>>
>> >Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> The commentariat gigged James for Unwoke Pronoun Use!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >Using someone's preferred title or, yes, pronouns when talking about
>> >them is not a matter of being woke, but of being courteous.
>> >
>> >I don't know about James, but if I was being unintentionally
>> >discorteous I wouldn't mind someone pointing it out so I could correct
>> >that.
>> Generally I agree with you BUT I will not use made up pronouns (Ze,
>> Zhir etc) - I'll call them by name instead of pronouns instead. I
>> respect the English language and will not defecate on it.
>
> I recall people with the same attitude towards Ms in the early 70s ("But
> it means Manuscript!"). A man may have mistaken his wife for a hat, but
> it isn't clear to me that a woman has yet been mistaken for a
> manuscript.
>
> Nero Wolfe, that woke fella, pointed out over seventy years ago that we
> need more pronouns in English.
>
> If you don't accept new pronouns, you're going to get "they" instead.
> The new pronouns add to the language, singular they detracts from it. I
> have already run into problems with it on several occasions. "Ze" or
> "Zhe" would have worked much better for me.
>
> Whether they will ever agree on a consistent set of such is an open
> question.
>
> William Hyde

If it was about pronouns there might be some kind of consensus but since
a lot of it is about being the most special and unique as soon as one
starts to gain traction the herd of cats splits and come up with three
more.

On Sat, 3 Jul 2021 17:33:11 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
Nicoll) wrote:

> What's your cut-off date for real English words vs new usages that
> sully it?

Dates have nothing to do with it.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

In article <i8t4egls8p5rl2bat51ftilcltt9q8t3bt@4ax.com>,
Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>On Sat, 3 Jul 2021 17:33:11 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
>Nicoll) wrote:
>
>> What's your cut-off date for real English words vs new usages that
>> sully it?
>
>Dates have nothing to do with it.
>
Well, what are your criteria for distinguish the one from the
other? I'd be interested in knowing.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/