On 2021-07-10, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>> Okay. Can you give a literal translation of [rez-de-chaussée] ?
>
> I suspect that "rez" is short for _reseau_.

It isn't.

Nowadays, _rez_ is a bound morpheme that only appears as part of
_rez-de-chaussée_ "ground/first floor" and _rez-de-jardin_ "garden
level".

Etymologically, _rez_ is a variant of _ras_. That means "cut short,
close-cropped, near a surface", from Latin _rasus_ "shaved". As a
noun, it's the space close to a surface.

_Chaussée_, besides a bunch of other meanings, is a roadway, the
main portion of a road used by vehicles. Etymologically, it's from
Latin *via calceata, "paved way", which is either from _calx_
"limestone" or from _calx_ "heel". The first component of English
_causeway_ is from the same source, by way of Norman French.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

In article <slrnsek1sf.4me.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>On 2021-07-10, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>>> Okay. Can you give a literal translation of [rez-de-chaussée] ?
>>
>> I suspect that "rez" is short for _reseau_.
>
>It isn't.
>
>Nowadays, _rez_ is a bound morpheme that only appears as part of
>_rez-de-chaussée_ "ground/first floor" and _rez-de-jardin_ "garden
>level".
>
>Etymologically, _rez_ is a variant of _ras_. That means "cut short,
>close-cropped, near a surface", from Latin _rasus_ "shaved". As a
>noun, it's the space close to a surface.
>
>_Chaussée_, besides a bunch of other meanings, is a roadway, the
>main portion of a road used by vehicles. Etymologically, it's from
>Latin *via calceata, "paved way", which is either from _calx_
>"limestone" or from _calx_ "heel". The first component of English
>_causeway_ is from the same source, by way of Norman French.
>
Cool; thanks.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

In article <7cd8a61d-5f8a-470b-91ea-6f6fc161a488n@googlegroups.com>,
Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>On Friday, 9 July 2021 at 16:46:49 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
>> When the light changed it turned out that /not one of those presumably
>> intelligent (well, they /were/ in college, after all) people had had
>> enough sense to push the button to produce a "Walk" light.
>
>Does this include yourself?
>
>I usually push the button if the wait light isn't on.
>And if the light still isn't on, I press again.

Best practice these days discourages the use of "beg buttons" at
otherwise signalized intersections, but many intersections near my
office use the same sort of installation to trigger audible crossing
indicators. Many sighted people still press the buttons, evidently
not bothering to read the signs which clearly say in 72-point type
"PRESS BUTTON FOR AUDIBLE SIGNAL", but they no longer have any effect
on the timing of the walk phase.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

On Saturday, July 10, 2021 at 12:40:03 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

> In cities where I live in Northern California, when the Walk sign
> is flashing for east-west pedestrians, it emits an audible chirp.
> For a north-south Walk sign, it cuckoos like a cuckoo clock ...
> or like a real cuckoo, if you happen to know that in Europe it
> flies north in spring, south in fall.

They have that here in Edmonton, too, but I never knew the
reason for the convention.

John Savard

In article <scdkqf$2tkg$1@usenet.csail.mit.edu>,
Garrett Wollman <wollman@bimajority.org> wrote:
>In article <7cd8a61d-5f8a-470b-91ea-6f6fc161a488n@googlegroups.com>,
>Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>On Friday, 9 July 2021 at 16:46:49 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> When the light changed it turned out that /not one of those presumably
>>> intelligent (well, they /were/ in college, after all) people had had
>>> enough sense to push the button to produce a "Walk" light.
>>
>>Does this include yourself?
>>
>>I usually push the button if the wait light isn't on.
>>And if the light still isn't on, I press again.
>
>Best practice these days discourages the use of "beg buttons" at
>otherwise signalized intersections, but many intersections near my
>office use the same sort of installation to trigger audible crossing
>indicators. Many sighted people still press the buttons, evidently
>not bothering to read the signs which clearly say in 72-point type
>"PRESS BUTTON FOR AUDIBLE SIGNAL", but they no longer have any effect
>on the timing of the walk phase.

The ones around here automatically chirp or cuckoo when the Walk
light is on in the appropraiate direction.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

In article <094034c5-9d94-498a-af3d-6e3c03052b93n@googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>On Saturday, July 10, 2021 at 12:40:03 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>> In cities where I live in Northern California, when the Walk sign
>> is flashing for east-west pedestrians, it emits an audible chirp.
>> For a north-south Walk sign, it cuckoos like a cuckoo clock ...
>> or like a real cuckoo, if you happen to know that in Europe it
>> flies north in spring, south in fall.
>
>They have that here in Edmonton, too, but I never knew the
>reason for the convention.

Well, I'm only guessing that's the reason. I never went to the
Oakland or Berkeley City Hall and asked. :)

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

In article <qw27F3.1LJs@kithrup.com>,
Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:

[pedestrian signals]

>The ones around here automatically chirp or cuckoo when the Walk
>light is on in the appropraiate direction.

Yes, I think making the audible warning pedestrian-actuated is a
(perhaps self-defeating) sop to neighbors who don't want to hear the
chirps when nobody is waiting for the light.

They'd have much more of a point if it was a buzzer like in some
European cities.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

On Saturday, July 10, 2021 at 12:28:01 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Jul 2021 06:21:34 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, 9 July 2021 at 16:46:49 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
> >> On Thu, 8 Jul 2021 09:22:48 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca>
> >> wrote:
> >> >On Thursday, July 8, 2021 at 9:46:02 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> There was a "space-warp" cross-walk corridor on campus where they
> >> >> joined two buildings. You would enter the (completely level) corridor
> >> >> and the third floor and exit on the 4th or vice versa. I think I heard
> >> >> they eventually resolved the confusion by giving one building a "Ground"
> >> >> floor and renumbering the others 1,2,3 etc. I haven't been in there
> >> >> in 30 years so I can't say for sure though..
> >> >
> >> >I'm quite surprised. I would have thought that solution would create
> >> >confusion, not solve it. That is: having any one building in which the
> >> >North American convention of the main floor also being the first
> >> >floor would create severe confusion, while the fact that a walkway
> >> >between buildings might join different floors of the two buildings
> >> >ought not to confuse anyone - particularly if a little signage is
> >> >provided so that as people exit, they know which floor they're
> >> >now on in the building that is their destination.
> >> I once stood on a corner at an intersection waiting for the lights to
> >> change.
> >>
> >> There were 20-30 people on each of the four corners. Most of them
> >> appeared to be college students, which made sense given we were on
> >> University Avenue in the University District, with the University
> >> itself starting a block to the East.
> >>
> >> When the light changed it turned out that /not one of those presumably
> >> intelligent (well, they /were/ in college, after all) people had had
> >> enough sense to push the button to produce a "Walk" light.
> >
> >Does this include yourself?
> No. I was several rows of people away, and just took it for granted
> that /someone/ among those on the four corners had pushed it. Silly
> me.
>
> I did, however, move forward and push to ensure a walk light on the
> next cycle.
> >I usually push the button if the wait light isn't on.
> >And if the light still isn't on, I press again.
> >
> >And I've seen:
> >
> >A crossing where the wait light doesn't work.
> >A crossing where the red pedestrian sign doesn't work.
> >A crossing where the green pedestrian sign doesn't work.
> >A crossing where neither of the pedestrian signs work.
> >A crossing where the button doesn't work.
> >A crossing where the button does work, but a camera
> >watches and un-presses the button if it doesn't see you
> >still waiting.
> >A camera that cannot see you under an umbrella. Or a hat.
> >A crossing where a button is jammed in accidentally.
> >Or deliberately.
> >A crossing where the buttons are no-touch pre-pressed
> >because of SARS-CoV-2, snd signs say so.
>
> I've seen
> A crossing where the light would not even change, never mind display a
> "Walk" light, unless there was an actual /vehicle/ sitting on its
> pressure plate. I'm not sure a motorcycle would do it.
> >In practice, at a crossing I try to determine: 1. Was a button
> >already pressed? 2. If not 1, can I cross the road safely on red?
> >3. If 2, are children watching?
> >
> >I don't want to chance it and set a bad example to the next
> >generation. But I will go if they aren't around.
> I will if it is clear that the alternative is to wait for a car to sit
> on the pressure plate,...

Did you have ones activated by weight? Sounds like a
land mine. In my neck, they use different tech: inductive
detector loops and more recently cameras.

> or if the lights do change and the button is
> clearly not working.
> >One crossroads I know has traffic cycles A, B, and a long C,
> >then the pedestrians' turn. However, no traffic will (or, should)
> >pass over crossing K during cycle B, so I'm not ashamed to
> >cross on B... but again it depends on the audience.
> We had one near here that did something similar, but I believe its
> been reprogrammed to do something closer to what people expect.
>
> The newer buttons, which are large and make noises, are much more
> informative about having been pushed already.
> --

--
Kevin R

On Sun, 11 Jul 2021 01:50:19 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com>
wrote:

>On Saturday, July 10, 2021 at 12:28:01 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sat, 10 Jul 2021 06:21:34 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
>> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Friday, 9 July 2021 at 16:46:49 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 8 Jul 2021 09:22:48 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >On Thursday, July 8, 2021 at 9:46:02 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> There was a "space-warp" cross-walk corridor on campus where they
>> >> >> joined two buildings. You would enter the (completely level) corridor
>> >> >> and the third floor and exit on the 4th or vice versa. I think I heard
>> >> >> they eventually resolved the confusion by giving one building a "Ground"
>> >> >> floor and renumbering the others 1,2,3 etc. I haven't been in there
>> >> >> in 30 years so I can't say for sure though..
>> >> >
>> >> >I'm quite surprised. I would have thought that solution would create
>> >> >confusion, not solve it. That is: having any one building in which the
>> >> >North American convention of the main floor also being the first
>> >> >floor would create severe confusion, while the fact that a walkway
>> >> >between buildings might join different floors of the two buildings
>> >> >ought not to confuse anyone - particularly if a little signage is
>> >> >provided so that as people exit, they know which floor they're
>> >> >now on in the building that is their destination.
>> >> I once stood on a corner at an intersection waiting for the lights to
>> >> change.
>> >>
>> >> There were 20-30 people on each of the four corners. Most of them
>> >> appeared to be college students, which made sense given we were on
>> >> University Avenue in the University District, with the University
>> >> itself starting a block to the East.
>> >>
>> >> When the light changed it turned out that /not one of those presumably
>> >> intelligent (well, they /were/ in college, after all) people had had
>> >> enough sense to push the button to produce a "Walk" light.
>> >
>> >Does this include yourself?
>> No. I was several rows of people away, and just took it for granted
>> that /someone/ among those on the four corners had pushed it. Silly
>> me.
>>
>> I did, however, move forward and push to ensure a walk light on the
>> next cycle.
>> >I usually push the button if the wait light isn't on.
>> >And if the light still isn't on, I press again.
>> >
>> >And I've seen:
>> >
>> >A crossing where the wait light doesn't work.
>> >A crossing where the red pedestrian sign doesn't work.
>> >A crossing where the green pedestrian sign doesn't work.
>> >A crossing where neither of the pedestrian signs work.
>> >A crossing where the button doesn't work.
>> >A crossing where the button does work, but a camera
>> >watches and un-presses the button if it doesn't see you
>> >still waiting.
>> >A camera that cannot see you under an umbrella. Or a hat.
>> >A crossing where a button is jammed in accidentally.
>> >Or deliberately.
>> >A crossing where the buttons are no-touch pre-pressed
>> >because of SARS-CoV-2, snd signs say so.
>>
>> I've seen
>> A crossing where the light would not even change, never mind display a
>> "Walk" light, unless there was an actual /vehicle/ sitting on its
>> pressure plate. I'm not sure a motorcycle would do it.
>> >In practice, at a crossing I try to determine: 1. Was a button
>> >already pressed? 2. If not 1, can I cross the road safely on red?
>> >3. If 2, are children watching?
>> >
>> >I don't want to chance it and set a bad example to the next
>> >generation. But I will go if they aren't around.
>> I will if it is clear that the alternative is to wait for a car to sit
>> on the pressure plate,...
>
>Did you have ones activated by weight? Sounds like a
>land mine. In my neck, they use different tech: inductive
>detector loops and more recently cameras.

I don't know about traffic lights but I do know of one crossing gate
that was actuated by weight on a pressure plate. And I know that it
was activated by weight because I was one of the Cub Ccouts who stood
on the pressure plate while we were seeing how many Cub Scouts it took
to make the gate open. That was at the exit to Fort Clinch State
Park. And no, I do not recall how many Cub Scouts were required,
although I do recall that my feet hurt--it has been a long walk in
cheap shoes that did not fit well.
>
>
>> or if the lights do change and the button is
>> clearly not working.
>> >One crossroads I know has traffic cycles A, B, and a long C,
>> >then the pedestrians' turn. However, no traffic will (or, should)
>> >pass over crossing K during cycle B, so I'm not ashamed to
>> >cross on B... but again it depends on the audience.
>> We had one near here that did something similar, but I believe its
>> been reprogrammed to do something closer to what people expect.
>>
>> The newer buttons, which are large and make noises, are much more
>> informative about having been pushed already.
>> --

On Sunday, 11 July 2021 at 03:55:03 UTC+1, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <scdkqf$2tkg$1...@usenet.csail.mit.edu>,
> Garrett Wollman <wol...@bimajority.org> wrote:
> >In article <7cd8a61d-5f8a-470b...@googlegroups.com>,
> >Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> >>On Friday, 9 July 2021 at 16:46:49 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
> >>> When the light changed it turned out that /not one of those presumably
> >>> intelligent (well, they /were/ in college, after all) people had had
> >>> enough sense to push the button to produce a "Walk" light.
> >>
> >>Does this include yourself?
> >>
> >>I usually push the button if the wait light isn't on.
> >>And if the light still isn't on, I press again.
> >
> >Best practice these days discourages the use of "beg buttons" at
> >otherwise signalized intersections, but many intersections near my
> >office use the same sort of installation to trigger audible crossing
> >indicators. Many sighted people still press the buttons, evidently
> >not bothering to read the signs which clearly say in 72-point type
> >"PRESS BUTTON FOR AUDIBLE SIGNAL", but they no longer have any effect
> >on the timing of the walk phase.
> The ones around here automatically chirp or cuckoo when the Walk
> light is on in the appropraiate direction.

Hmm. United Kingdom pedestrian lights, as far as
I know, bleep (if a bleep is fitted) only when all road
traffic is - legally - stopped. (Cyclists might go
through a red light. They shouldn't.) Otherwise,
a visually impaired pedestrian might misjudge
whether a bleep is for their crossing or another one.
Or in a _Not the Nine O' Clock News_ sketch, someone
next to them with a digital watch alarm.

No, that's not quite right: either one or both
pedestrian crossings along a stretch of urban
dual carriageway near me have been built
to speak, "Truffic coming flum Lkjhgfdsa
Poiuy Trewq hav been signalled to stoff."
So you see I still have doubts about it.
It is because at two places, there's one
crossing against traffic from the east, and
once you have crossed that, a separate
crossing against traffic from the west,
i.e. from "Mnbvcxz" instead of "Lkjhgfdsa".
We are in Lkjhgfdsa and about one mile
from the Poiuy Trewq and three miles from
Mnbvcxz, but you wouldn't attempt the
crossings without, as it were, a run through.

In article <790a65aa-a974-463c-8384-69476b5a9e42n@googlegroups.com>,
Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>
>Hmm. United Kingdom pedestrian lights, as far as
>I know, bleep (if a bleep is fitted) only when all road
>traffic is - legally - stopped. (Cyclists might go
>through a red light. They shouldn't.) Otherwise,
>a visually impaired pedestrian might misjudge
>whether a bleep is for their crossing or another one.

That's why, in the East Bay (the only place I've had occasion to
cross at a pedestrian crossing in the last ten or twelve years),
east-west chirps and north-south cuckoos.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

On Sun, 11 Jul 2021 03:27:19 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:

>In article <094034c5-9d94-498a-af3d-6e3c03052b93n@googlegroups.com>,
>Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>On Saturday, July 10, 2021 at 12:40:03 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>
>>> In cities where I live in Northern California, when the Walk sign
>>> is flashing for east-west pedestrians, it emits an audible chirp.
>>> For a north-south Walk sign, it cuckoos like a cuckoo clock ...
>>> or like a real cuckoo, if you happen to know that in Europe it
>>> flies north in spring, south in fall.
>>
>>They have that here in Edmonton, too, but I never knew the
>>reason for the convention.
>
>Well, I'm only guessing that's the reason. I never went to the
>Oakland or Berkeley City Hall and asked. :)

Well, at least there's a difference.

Up here, the sounds are the same regardless of orientation.

When there are sounds at all, of course.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Sun, 11 Jul 2021 01:50:19 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com>
wrote:

>On Saturday, July 10, 2021 at 12:28:01 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sat, 10 Jul 2021 06:21:34 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
>> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Friday, 9 July 2021 at 16:46:49 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 8 Jul 2021 09:22:48 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >On Thursday, July 8, 2021 at 9:46:02 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> There was a "space-warp" cross-walk corridor on campus where they
>> >> >> joined two buildings. You would enter the (completely level) corridor
>> >> >> and the third floor and exit on the 4th or vice versa. I think I heard
>> >> >> they eventually resolved the confusion by giving one building a "Ground"
>> >> >> floor and renumbering the others 1,2,3 etc. I haven't been in there
>> >> >> in 30 years so I can't say for sure though..
>> >> >
>> >> >I'm quite surprised. I would have thought that solution would create
>> >> >confusion, not solve it. That is: having any one building in which the
>> >> >North American convention of the main floor also being the first
>> >> >floor would create severe confusion, while the fact that a walkway
>> >> >between buildings might join different floors of the two buildings
>> >> >ought not to confuse anyone - particularly if a little signage is
>> >> >provided so that as people exit, they know which floor they're
>> >> >now on in the building that is their destination.
>> >> I once stood on a corner at an intersection waiting for the lights to
>> >> change.
>> >>
>> >> There were 20-30 people on each of the four corners. Most of them
>> >> appeared to be college students, which made sense given we were on
>> >> University Avenue in the University District, with the University
>> >> itself starting a block to the East.
>> >>
>> >> When the light changed it turned out that /not one of those presumably
>> >> intelligent (well, they /were/ in college, after all) people had had
>> >> enough sense to push the button to produce a "Walk" light.
>> >
>> >Does this include yourself?
>> No. I was several rows of people away, and just took it for granted
>> that /someone/ among those on the four corners had pushed it. Silly
>> me.
>>
>> I did, however, move forward and push to ensure a walk light on the
>> next cycle.
>> >I usually push the button if the wait light isn't on.
>> >And if the light still isn't on, I press again.
>> >
>> >And I've seen:
>> >
>> >A crossing where the wait light doesn't work.
>> >A crossing where the red pedestrian sign doesn't work.
>> >A crossing where the green pedestrian sign doesn't work.
>> >A crossing where neither of the pedestrian signs work.
>> >A crossing where the button doesn't work.
>> >A crossing where the button does work, but a camera
>> >watches and un-presses the button if it doesn't see you
>> >still waiting.
>> >A camera that cannot see you under an umbrella. Or a hat.
>> >A crossing where a button is jammed in accidentally.
>> >Or deliberately.
>> >A crossing where the buttons are no-touch pre-pressed
>> >because of SARS-CoV-2, snd signs say so.
>>
>> I've seen
>> A crossing where the light would not even change, never mind display a
>> "Walk" light, unless there was an actual /vehicle/ sitting on its
>> pressure plate. I'm not sure a motorcycle would do it.
>> >In practice, at a crossing I try to determine: 1. Was a button
>> >already pressed? 2. If not 1, can I cross the road safely on red?
>> >3. If 2, are children watching?
>> >
>> >I don't want to chance it and set a bad example to the next
>> >generation. But I will go if they aren't around.
>> I will if it is clear that the alternative is to wait for a car to sit
>> on the pressure plate,...
>
>Did you have ones activated by weight? Sounds like a
>land mine. In my neck, they use different tech: inductive
>detector loops and more recently cameras.

Weight or induction, I have no idea.

This was back in the mid-80s, if that makes any difference.

I /do/ know that I discovered this when a car actually showed up and
.... the light changed! After far too long a wait.

(A memory stirs: I /think/ what happened was that the signal changed
enought to suggest that changing the lights was considered, and then
rejected. A blink, as it were.)
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Sat, 10 Jul 2021 13:21:28 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, 10 July 2021 at 17:28:01 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sat, 10 Jul 2021 06:21:34 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
>> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Friday, 9 July 2021 at 16:46:49 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 8 Jul 2021 09:22:48 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >On Thursday, July 8, 2021 at 9:46:02 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> There was a "space-warp" cross-walk corridor on campus where they
>> >> >> joined two buildings. You would enter the (completely level) corridor
>> >> >> and the third floor and exit on the 4th or vice versa. I think I heard
>> >> >> they eventually resolved the confusion by giving one building a "Ground"
>> >> >> floor and renumbering the others 1,2,3 etc. I haven't been in there
>> >> >> in 30 years so I can't say for sure though..
>> >> >
>> >> >I'm quite surprised. I would have thought that solution would create
>> >> >confusion, not solve it. That is: having any one building in which the
>> >> >North American convention of the main floor also being the first
>> >> >floor would create severe confusion, while the fact that a walkway
>> >> >between buildings might join different floors of the two buildings
>> >> >ought not to confuse anyone - particularly if a little signage is
>> >> >provided so that as people exit, they know which floor they're
>> >> >now on in the building that is their destination.
>> >> I once stood on a corner at an intersection waiting for the lights to
>> >> change.
>> >>
>> >> There were 20-30 people on each of the four corners. Most of them
>> >> appeared to be college students, which made sense given we were on
>> >> University Avenue in the University District, with the University
>> >> itself starting a block to the East.
>> >>
>> >> When the light changed it turned out that /not one of those presumably
>> >> intelligent (well, they /were/ in college, after all) people had had
>> >> enough sense to push the button to produce a "Walk" light.
>> >
>> >Does this include yourself?
>> No. I was several rows of people away, and just took it for granted
>> that /someone/ among those on the four corners had pushed it. Silly
>> me.
>>
>> I did, however, move forward and push to ensure a walk light on the
>> next cycle.
>> >I usually push the button if the wait light isn't on.
>> >And if the light still isn't on, I press again.
>> >
>> >And I've seen:
>> >
>> >A crossing where the wait light doesn't work.
>> >A crossing where the red pedestrian sign doesn't work.
>> >A crossing where the green pedestrian sign doesn't work.
>> >A crossing where neither of the pedestrian signs work.
>> >A crossing where the button doesn't work.
>> >A crossing where the button does work, but a camera
>> >watches and un-presses the button if it doesn't see you
>> >still waiting.
>> >A camera that cannot see you under an umbrella. Or a hat.
>> >A crossing where a button is jammed in accidentally.
>> >Or deliberately.
>> >A crossing where the buttons are no-touch pre-pressed
>> >because of SARS-CoV-2, snd signs say so.
>>
>> I've seen
>> A crossing where the light would not even change, never mind display a
>> "Walk" light, unless there was an actual /vehicle/ sitting on its
>> pressure plate. I'm not sure a motorcycle would do it.
>
>Perhaps technically a metal detector, but your point stands.
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_loop>
>And I'm a bicyclist, when I have time.
>
>I think I've seen that problem and maybe seen it fixed,
>but I'm going back 35 years in one case so not sure...
>and I'm also not sure that it affected the pedestrian
>phase. It should not, but, as I say, I've seen lights
>whose pedestrian-detectors didn't work properly.
>
>So in one case, it seemed that traffic coming from east
>or from west got a minute or more of lights in their
>favour, then I think I timed that traffic from north or south
>got 24 seconds /if/ a vehicle was on the detector.
>If not, they got 10 seconds. That was usually me
>cycling uphill and it was not easy to cross the junction
>in 10 seconds.
>
>In a different time and place, a similar system may have
>had the result that if traffic from north or south wasn't
>detected, then it didn't get a turn at all. Or maybe the thing
>simply was broken.
>
>> >In practice, at a crossing I try to determine: 1. Was a button
>> >already pressed? 2. If not 1, can I cross the road safely on red?
>> >3. If 2, are children watching?
>> >
>> >I don't want to chance it and set a bad example to the next
>> >generation. But I will go if they aren't around.
>> I will if it is clear that the alternative is to wait for a car to sit
>> on the pressure plate, or if the lights do change and the button is
>> clearly not working.
>> >One crossroads I know has traffic cycles A, B, and a long C,
>> >then the pedestrians' turn. However, no traffic will (or, should)
>> >pass over crossing K during cycle B, so I'm not ashamed to
>> >cross on B... but again it depends on the audience.
>>
>> We had one near here that did something similar, but I believe its
>> been reprogrammed to do something closer to what people expect.
>
>Well... this one is traffic from east and from west running (A),
>then from south only (B), then from north only (C). However,
>traffic from south isn't allowed to turn left. So during cycle B,
>vehicles can't enter or leave the junction on the west side,
>and while a crossing signal isn't given, it is safe, and here it's
>legal, to walk across on that side, anyway.
>
>> The newer buttons, which are large and make noises, are much more
>> informative about having been pushed already.
>
>"Please do not press this button again." ;-)

Actually, ours say "WAIT!" in a rather loud and imperious tone.

And sometimes they say that, if they have been pushed, on their own
initiative.

What always changes, though, is that a red light above the button
starts blinking when it has been pushed.

When the Walk signal appears, you get one sound and then, when the
blinking Wait signal appears (which is supposed to mean "don't enter
the crosswalk but keep on coming if you are already in it") the sound
changes.

These are fairly new -- the nearest N-S arterial was repaved a few
years back, and part of that was to update the control systems,
including those for pedestrians.

And some of the wheelchair access ramps are actually /parallel/ to the
street the user isn't planning to cross -- as opposed to pointing the
user out into the middle of the intersection, which is not so safe.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Sat, 10 Jul 2021 18:27:31 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:

>In article <6rijegt4a02nchjneojm0nch3pm0h24mtj@4ax.com>,
>Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>On Sat, 10 Jul 2021 06:13:32 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>><jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thursday, July 8, 2021 at 10:55:04 AM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>> In article <44fcbf71-3335-4d91...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> >Just as in Britain, where the main floor is the ground floor, in
>>France it is
>>>> >the rez-des-chaussées. As for German, it's the Erdgeschoß.
>>>
>>>> Okay. Can you give a literal translation of rez-des-chauss\xc3\xa9es ?
>>>> (My system can only read 8-bit, so I had to copy and paste the
>>>> term.)
>>>
>>>I suspect that "rez" is short for _reseau_.
>>>
>>>In which case, the French phrase for "main floor" literally translates to
>>>the grid of roads. However, perhaps what it _really_ means is
>>>"street level".
>>
>>Bing's translator claims that "rez", all by itself, means "ground
>>floor.
>>
>>But then, so does "rez-des-chaussées".
>>
>>"chausee" by /itself/ is said to mean "highway"
>>
>>And yet, an extract on the search results page for "rez-des-chaussées
>>in english" shows:
>>
>>L e rez-de-chaussée sera constitué du hall principal, [...] un centre
>>de conférences, d'un centre de presse, et d'un restaurant pour les
>>visiteurs. icc-cpi.int. icc-cpi.int. T he ground floor w il l consist
>>of the m ain lobby, [...] a conference centre, a press centre and a
>>restaurant for visitors. icc-cpi.int.
>>
>>Don't see any "highways" listed, though.
>
>"Streets" will do.

Don't see any "streets" listed either: a lobby, two centres, and a
resaurant -- yes; streets -- no.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Sun, 11 Jul 2021 08:36:11 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Sun, 11 Jul 2021 01:50:19 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Saturday, July 10, 2021 at 12:28:01 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Sat, 10 Jul 2021 06:21:34 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
>>> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >On Friday, 9 July 2021 at 16:46:49 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> >> On Thu, 8 Jul 2021 09:22:48 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >> >On Thursday, July 8, 2021 at 9:46:02 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> There was a "space-warp" cross-walk corridor on campus where they
>>> >> >> joined two buildings. You would enter the (completely level) corridor
>>> >> >> and the third floor and exit on the 4th or vice versa. I think I heard
>>> >> >> they eventually resolved the confusion by giving one building a "Ground"
>>> >> >> floor and renumbering the others 1,2,3 etc. I haven't been in there
>>> >> >> in 30 years so I can't say for sure though..
>>> >> >
>>> >> >I'm quite surprised. I would have thought that solution would create
>>> >> >confusion, not solve it. That is: having any one building in which the
>>> >> >North American convention of the main floor also being the first
>>> >> >floor would create severe confusion, while the fact that a walkway
>>> >> >between buildings might join different floors of the two buildings
>>> >> >ought not to confuse anyone - particularly if a little signage is
>>> >> >provided so that as people exit, they know which floor they're
>>> >> >now on in the building that is their destination.
>>> >> I once stood on a corner at an intersection waiting for the lights to
>>> >> change.
>>> >>
>>> >> There were 20-30 people on each of the four corners. Most of them
>>> >> appeared to be college students, which made sense given we were on
>>> >> University Avenue in the University District, with the University
>>> >> itself starting a block to the East.
>>> >>
>>> >> When the light changed it turned out that /not one of those presumably
>>> >> intelligent (well, they /were/ in college, after all) people had had
>>> >> enough sense to push the button to produce a "Walk" light.
>>> >
>>> >Does this include yourself?
>>> No. I was several rows of people away, and just took it for granted
>>> that /someone/ among those on the four corners had pushed it. Silly
>>> me.
>>>
>>> I did, however, move forward and push to ensure a walk light on the
>>> next cycle.
>>> >I usually push the button if the wait light isn't on.
>>> >And if the light still isn't on, I press again.
>>> >
>>> >And I've seen:
>>> >
>>> >A crossing where the wait light doesn't work.
>>> >A crossing where the red pedestrian sign doesn't work.
>>> >A crossing where the green pedestrian sign doesn't work.
>>> >A crossing where neither of the pedestrian signs work.
>>> >A crossing where the button doesn't work.
>>> >A crossing where the button does work, but a camera
>>> >watches and un-presses the button if it doesn't see you
>>> >still waiting.
>>> >A camera that cannot see you under an umbrella. Or a hat.
>>> >A crossing where a button is jammed in accidentally.
>>> >Or deliberately.
>>> >A crossing where the buttons are no-touch pre-pressed
>>> >because of SARS-CoV-2, snd signs say so.
>>>
>>> I've seen
>>> A crossing where the light would not even change, never mind display a
>>> "Walk" light, unless there was an actual /vehicle/ sitting on its
>>> pressure plate. I'm not sure a motorcycle would do it.
>>> >In practice, at a crossing I try to determine: 1. Was a button
>>> >already pressed? 2. If not 1, can I cross the road safely on red?
>>> >3. If 2, are children watching?
>>> >
>>> >I don't want to chance it and set a bad example to the next
>>> >generation. But I will go if they aren't around.
>>> I will if it is clear that the alternative is to wait for a car to sit
>>> on the pressure plate,...
>>
>>Did you have ones activated by weight? Sounds like a
>>land mine. In my neck, they use different tech: inductive
>>detector loops and more recently cameras.
>
>Weight or induction, I have no idea.
>
>This was back in the mid-80s, if that makes any difference.
>
>I /do/ know that I discovered this when a car actually showed up and
>... the light changed! After far too long a wait.
>
>(A memory stirs: I /think/ what happened was that the signal changed
>enought to suggest that changing the lights was considered, and then
>rejected. A blink, as it were.)

OK, the memory has clarified:
A is the favored street, B is the cross street. I am trying to cross
A.

Traffic (not walk) signals:
1. A is green, B is red
2. the normal timeout for a switch is reached
3. A turns yellow, B is still red
4. A turns red, B is still red
5. A turns green, B is still red

So, for maybe a half a second, the intersection is "four-way-red". Not
enough time to cross it safely however.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Monday, July 12, 2021 at 10:14:01 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:

> So, for maybe a half a second, the intersection is "four-way-red". Not
> enough time to cross it safely however.

Some intersections, though, do have a four-way red phase long enough
that pedestrians can cross - not only in both normal directions, but
also along painted diagonal crosswalks.

There was one intersection of this sort in Las Vegas which was so notable
that it appeared on a View-Master set of reels about the area.

However, recently, many years later, a couple such intersections have been
set up even here in humble Edmonton, Alberta.

John Savard

In article <1bqoegp8d13eugpksmeo5r9lo5suusrctv@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Sun, 11 Jul 2021 08:36:11 -0700, Paul S Person
><psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 11 Jul 2021 01:50:19 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Saturday, July 10, 2021 at 12:28:01 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 10 Jul 2021 06:21:34 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
>>>> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >On Friday, 9 July 2021 at 16:46:49 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>> >> On Thu, 8 Jul 2021 09:22:48 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca>
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >> >On Thursday, July 8, 2021 at 9:46:02 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan
><tednolan> wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >> There was a "space-warp" cross-walk corridor on campus where they
>>>> >> >> joined two buildings. You would enter the (completely level) corridor
>>>> >> >> and the third floor and exit on the 4th or vice versa. I think
>I heard
>>>> >> >> they eventually resolved the confusion by giving one building
>a "Ground"
>>>> >> >> floor and renumbering the others 1,2,3 etc. I haven't been in there
>>>> >> >> in 30 years so I can't say for sure though..
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >I'm quite surprised. I would have thought that solution would create
>>>> >> >confusion, not solve it. That is: having any one building in which the
>>>> >> >North American convention of the main floor also being the first
>>>> >> >floor would create severe confusion, while the fact that a walkway
>>>> >> >between buildings might join different floors of the two buildings
>>>> >> >ought not to confuse anyone - particularly if a little signage is
>>>> >> >provided so that as people exit, they know which floor they're
>>>> >> >now on in the building that is their destination.
>>>> >> I once stood on a corner at an intersection waiting for the lights to
>>>> >> change.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> There were 20-30 people on each of the four corners. Most of them
>>>> >> appeared to be college students, which made sense given we were on
>>>> >> University Avenue in the University District, with the University
>>>> >> itself starting a block to the East.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> When the light changed it turned out that /not one of those presumably
>>>> >> intelligent (well, they /were/ in college, after all) people had had
>>>> >> enough sense to push the button to produce a "Walk" light.
>>>> >
>>>> >Does this include yourself?
>>>> No. I was several rows of people away, and just took it for granted
>>>> that /someone/ among those on the four corners had pushed it. Silly
>>>> me.
>>>>
>>>> I did, however, move forward and push to ensure a walk light on the
>>>> next cycle.
>>>> >I usually push the button if the wait light isn't on.
>>>> >And if the light still isn't on, I press again.
>>>> >
>>>> >And I've seen:
>>>> >
>>>> >A crossing where the wait light doesn't work.
>>>> >A crossing where the red pedestrian sign doesn't work.
>>>> >A crossing where the green pedestrian sign doesn't work.
>>>> >A crossing where neither of the pedestrian signs work.
>>>> >A crossing where the button doesn't work.
>>>> >A crossing where the button does work, but a camera
>>>> >watches and un-presses the button if it doesn't see you
>>>> >still waiting.
>>>> >A camera that cannot see you under an umbrella. Or a hat.
>>>> >A crossing where a button is jammed in accidentally.
>>>> >Or deliberately.
>>>> >A crossing where the buttons are no-touch pre-pressed
>>>> >because of SARS-CoV-2, snd signs say so.
>>>>
>>>> I've seen
>>>> A crossing where the light would not even change, never mind display a
>>>> "Walk" light, unless there was an actual /vehicle/ sitting on its
>>>> pressure plate. I'm not sure a motorcycle would do it.
>>>> >In practice, at a crossing I try to determine: 1. Was a button
>>>> >already pressed? 2. If not 1, can I cross the road safely on red?
>>>> >3. If 2, are children watching?
>>>> >
>>>> >I don't want to chance it and set a bad example to the next
>>>> >generation. But I will go if they aren't around.
>>>> I will if it is clear that the alternative is to wait for a car to sit
>>>> on the pressure plate,...
>>>
>>>Did you have ones activated by weight? Sounds like a
>>>land mine. In my neck, they use different tech: inductive
>>>detector loops and more recently cameras.
>>
>>Weight or induction, I have no idea.
>>
>>This was back in the mid-80s, if that makes any difference.
>>
>>I /do/ know that I discovered this when a car actually showed up and
>>... the light changed! After far too long a wait.
>>
>>(A memory stirs: I /think/ what happened was that the signal changed
>>enought to suggest that changing the lights was considered, and then
>>rejected. A blink, as it were.)
>
>OK, the memory has clarified:
>A is the favored street, B is the cross street. I am trying to cross
>A.
>
>Traffic (not walk) signals:
>1. A is green, B is red
>2. the normal timeout for a switch is reached
>3. A turns yellow, B is still red
>4. A turns red, B is still red
>5. A turns green, B is still red
>
>So, for maybe a half a second, the intersection is "four-way-red". Not
>enough time to cross it safely however.

Now, in my part of the world, one sometimes sees flashing
four-way red. This means that the computer that handles the
signals is hosed, and it's gone to its default, which means
"come to a full stop and then proceed with caution." If the
computer is really hosed and no signals are lit at all, then the
intersection should be treated as flashing four-way red, as
above.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

rkshullat@rosettacondot.com <rkshullat@rosettacondot.com> schrieb:
> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> In article <sc4bpq$sb8$1@dont-email.me>,
>> Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>On 07/07/2021 08.39, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>>>> In article <sc49sj$df7$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>> Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 06/07/2021 23.09, Titus G wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> In Martha Wells' Murderbot series, she uses many brackets. (All over the
>>>>>> place (including inside (brackets) and outside (brackets)). (Sometimes
>>>>>> just after the last lot (of brackets)).
>>>>>
>>>>> She must have been a LISP programmer.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [those are not brackets]
>>>
>>>I wouldn't call them that, but I speak en_US. However, as GBS is reputed
>>>to have said, the US and the UK are "two countries separated by a common
>>>language."
>>
>> I heard Hal explaining to our grandson yesterday about the
>> different meanings of "first floor" in the US and the UK.
>>
>>><https://www.englishclub.com/writing/punctuation-brackets.htm>
>>
>> I call these (parentheses), these [square brackets], and these
>> {curly brackets.} I don't know how many other Yanks do the same.
>
> (Parentheses), [brackets] and {braces} here.

(runde Klammern) or (Klammern), [eckige Klammern] and
{geschweifte Klammern}.

It's more verbose, but unabmgiguous.

On Tuesday, 13 July 2021 at 08:28:51 UTC+1, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> rksh...@rosettacondot.com <rksh...@rosettacondot.com> schrieb:
> > Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> >> In article <sc4bpq$sb8$1...@dont-email.me>,
> >> Michael F. Stemper <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>On 07/07/2021 08.39, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> >>>> In article <sc49sj$df7$1...@dont-email.me>,
> >>>> Michael F. Stemper <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On 06/07/2021 23.09, Titus G wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>> In Martha Wells' Murderbot series, she uses many brackets. (All over the
> >>>>>> place (including inside (brackets) and outside (brackets)). (Sometimes
> >>>>>> just after the last lot (of brackets)).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> She must have been a LISP programmer.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> [those are not brackets]
> >>>
> >>>I wouldn't call them that, but I speak en_US. However, as GBS is reputed
> >>>to have said, the US and the UK are "two countries separated by a common
> >>>language."
> >>
> >> I heard Hal explaining to our grandson yesterday about the
> >> different meanings of "first floor" in the US and the UK.
> >>
> >>><https://www.englishclub.com/writing/punctuation-brackets.htm>
> >>
> >> I call these (parentheses), these [square brackets], and these
> >> {curly brackets.} I don't know how many other Yanks do the same.
> >
> > (Parentheses), [brackets] and {braces} here.
>
> (runde Klammern) or (Klammern), [eckige Klammern] and
> {geschweifte Klammern}.
>
> It's more verbose, but unambiguous.

And now we know the German word for "twiddly". :-)

(Hurra für Google!)

On 13/07/2021 02:44, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Monday, July 12, 2021 at 10:14:01 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>
>> So, for maybe a half a second, the intersection is "four-way-red". Not
>> enough time to cross it safely however.
>
> Some intersections, though, do have a four-way red phase long enough
> that pedestrians can cross - not only in both normal directions, but
> also along painted diagonal crosswalks.
>
> There was one intersection of this sort in Las Vegas which was so notable
> that it appeared on a View-Master set of reels about the area.
>
> However, recently, many years later, a couple such intersections have been
> set up even here in humble Edmonton, Alberta.
>
Here in Melbourne, Oz, we have at a three-way red - outside Flinders
Street Railway Station, where Elizabeth Street terminates (i.e. a "T"
intersection) into Flinders Street, all vehicular traffic is stopped
while the pedestrians swarm across the square of the intersection hither
and yon.

Back in the day it was the busiest pedestrian intersection in Melbourne,
it possibly still is, but at a much, much lower number.

Cheers,
Gary B-)

--
Waiting for a new signature to suggest itself...

In article <21c3e22f-879e-4f77-800e-162267b767cdn@googlegroups.com>,
Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday, 13 July 2021 at 08:28:51 UTC+1, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>> rksh...@rosettacondot.com <rksh...@rosettacondot.com> schrieb:
>> > Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> >> In article <sc4bpq$sb8$1...@dont-email.me>,
>> >> Michael F. Stemper <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>On 07/07/2021 08.39, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>> >>>> In article <sc49sj$df7$1...@dont-email.me>,
>> >>>> Michael F. Stemper <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> On 06/07/2021 23.09, Titus G wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>>> In Martha Wells' Murderbot series, she uses many brackets. (All
>over the
>> >>>>>> place (including inside (brackets) and outside (brackets)). (Sometimes
>> >>>>>> just after the last lot (of brackets)).
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> She must have been a LISP programmer.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> [those are not brackets]
>> >>>
>> >>>I wouldn't call them that, but I speak en_US. However, as GBS is reputed
>> >>>to have said, the US and the UK are "two countries separated by a common
>> >>>language."
>> >>
>> >> I heard Hal explaining to our grandson yesterday about the
>> >> different meanings of "first floor" in the US and the UK.
>> >>
>> >>><https://www.englishclub.com/writing/punctuation-brackets.htm>
>> >>
>> >> I call these (parentheses), these [square brackets], and these
>> >> {curly brackets.} I don't know how many other Yanks do the same.
>> >
>> > (Parentheses), [brackets] and {braces} here.
>>
>> (runde Klammern) or (Klammern), [eckige Klammern] and
>> {geschweifte Klammern}.
>>
>> It's more verbose, but unambiguous.
>
>And now we know the German word for "twiddly". :-)

We learn something new every day.

We-inclusive do, anyway.

I remember my eighth-grade teacher (this was in Kettleman City, a
tiny spot in the road in the San Joaquin Valley, armpit of
civilization) telling the class, "It's been said that when you
have nothing more to learn, you're ready to die. I think some of
the students in this class are ready to die." By which she
didn't mean that they had learned everything, but that they had
checked out. In eighth grade.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

On Sat, 3 Jul 2021 17:33:11 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
Nicoll) wrote:

>>Generally I agree with you BUT I will not use made up pronouns (Ze,
>>Zhir etc) - I'll call them by name instead of pronouns instead. I
>>respect the English language and will not defecate on it.
>
>It may sound like I am laughing at you but only because I am in fact
>laughing at you.
>
>[A certain quotation goes here]
>
>What's your cut-off date for real English words vs new usages that
>sully it?

I don't know - I'm not a Victorian but feel no need to keep up with
the latest and greatest terminology. I've had discussions with a
customer who is a past band councillor as to whether it should be
'Indian', 'Native' or 'Aboriginal' as well as a local gay guy who is
active in municipal politics as to the currently proper terms in his
community.

Both of them find it quite funny the extent some people will go to not
to offend by using last year's terminology. Particularly since both of
them have known me long enough to know that while I may occasionally
be a Neanderthal I'm no racist or bigot. Both are intelligent and well
spoken guys who are thoughtful and can tell when somebody's trying -
and more importantly when they're not.

On 6 Jul 2021 17:21:55 GMT, ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>)
wrote:

>I have no idea what, if any, color words this applies to, but an intro
>to one of the Homer translations I have (Fagles?) says that the Homeric
>meter was so strict that many common greek words could not be used in
>the poems at all.

A lot of that is due to the fact that a lot of ancient Greek "poems"
were in fact meant to be chanted or sung.

On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 16:17:26 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

>I heard Hal explaining to our grandson yesterday about the
>different meanings of "first floor" in the US and the UK.
>
>><https://www.englishclub.com/writing/punctuation-brackets.htm>
>
>I call these (parentheses), these [square brackets], and these
>{curly brackets.} I don't know how many other Yanks do the same.

I never had any problem figuring that out while we were in the UK
unlike my wife.

On the other hand I had made10-15 trips (each about 2-3 weeks) to Hong
Kong over the 15 years before our trip to the UK and in HK pretty much
any term involving architecture follows the UK / European usage.