Herman schrieb am Montag, 13. Februar 2023 um 08:16:48 UTC+1:
> Also, it is somewhat ironic to use 'the Torah and the Gospels' as a factual, historical account, especially after all you've said about 'rabies' and the like. It's your usual opportunistic talking out of both sides of your mouth, as long as you get to cal people antisemite.

Herman... we all know you are immune to facts... You lied about not talking about Israel, and when I showed it to you, you were just silent... you seem to have a problem admitting mistakes (in this sense Dan is similar to you).

Furthermore Dan was talking about archaeological evidence... "historical artifacts"... he was not just talking about the Torah and the Gospels as you would like to have it... quite "opportunistic" of you, to neglect what Dan actually said...

You should also shut your trap about DK talking about "rabies"... It's not good, but you are even worse with what you have said about israel.

> I suggest using these same books to challenge geology and evolution.

I suggest educating yourself about the Torah and its connection to some of the archaeological evidence. Torah contains "some" truth.

You are ridiculously undereducated Herman...

Herman schrieb am Montag, 13. Februar 2023 um 03:41:36 UTC+1:
> On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 2:36:12 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> >
> > No, we cannot argue. These are verifiable, measurable, historical facts.
> >
> Says Putin about occupying Ukraine, which has never existed, according to his facts.

You really are completely deluded. You have just demonized the majority of Israelis... they also "believe" in these historical _facts_.

Herman... I would love to see you vacationing in Israel and telling the Israelis that they are like Putin because they "believe" in these historical _facts_... What a fucking joke you are.

Herman schrieb am Montag, 13. Februar 2023 um 08:13:06 UTC+1:
> On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 3:50:16 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 6:41:36 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> > > On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 2:36:12 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > >
> > > > No, we cannot argue. These are
> > > > verifiable, measurable, historical
> > > > facts.
> > >
> > > Says Putin about occupying Ukraine,
> > > which has never existed, according
> > > to his facts.
> >
>
> >
> > You have now shown your true
> > colors as a rabid,
> No I'm not. You are the rabid racist here, and you've brought a couple of crazy mouth-foaming racists here after you turned RMCR into a racist free for all.
> All I did was point out that these "historical facts" are problematic in a world of constant migration and overpopulation and its concomitant competition for, shall we say, Lebensraum.

Herman... they are called historical _facts_ for a reason. Maybe you didn't know, but pyramids are factual as well. You have such a screwed understanding of history, you semi-educated monkey.

Using the term "Lebensraum" in this context... you are so fucked in your head.

Obviously I was wrong in thinking that Dan trumped your imbecility. Only Nazis would be able to trump your imbecility.

Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 13. Februar 2023 um 02:36:12 UTC+1:
> On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 4:06:04 PM UTC-8, HT wrote:
> > Op zondag 12 februari 2023 om 22:51:20 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:
> > >
> > > If you are suggesting the land belongs to the "original population",
> > > then it clearly belongs to the Jewish people before any other group
> > > can claim it.
> > >
> > > You really need to revisit your history.
> >
> > No need. I was once well-versed in Middle Eastern history. It was
> > more than half a century ago, but I have not forgotten the headlines.
> History is not defined by "headlines".
> > Of course, we can argue about the "original" population and to whom
> > the land once "belonged". Perhaps an interesting history lesson, and
> > at least a boost for the legal minds among us.
> No, we cannot argue. These are verifiable, measurable, historical facts.
>
> The Jewish people are the only people still in existance who inhabited
> the land of Israel in historical times. There were of course other people
> who lived there earlier in ancient times (e.g. Canaanites or Phoenicians)
> who then disappeared from history and are no longer around. The Arabs
> started to move into "Palestine" in the 6th century AD,
> > In my opinion, it would not do justice to the fact that: 1. Zionism was
> > the answer to a problem (autonomy, security) that needed solving
> > more urgently than ever, and 2. the Promised Land was the only
> > place all could call home thanks to a shared tradition.
> Total non-sequitur. Zionism does not change historical facts. Your
> second argument is self-defeating -- you state explicitly all Jews
> can "call it home". Did you bother to figure out why this is so?
> > To deny (to paraphrase Frank) 1. and 2. is, in my view, anti-Zionist.
> You seem to have borrowed Marc's logic.

It seems you don't understand what you are talking about, just as you don't understand me. Henk is right; if you deny 1 and 2 it will be considered anti-zionist.

90% of the Israelis will agree with me here. You as a Californian ofc won't..

> > These points cannot be separated - whatever the consequences.
> Please don't tell us Arab/Muslim hatred of the Jews was triggered
> by Zionism. Mohammad's soldiers waged unprovoked unnecessary
> war against Jewish tribes in Arabia. Their first great "victory" was to
> butcher all the inhabitants of the Jewish village of Khaybar, including
> women and children. That happened in the 7th century AD. It did not
> start in 1948.
> > I think the real discussion is about 3.: how to deal with the consequences.
> Discussions and negotiations are pointless when people disregard
> or ignore verifiable, material, tangible historical facts.
> > Initially, I trusted that the women and men who once formed the
> > backbone of Western (in particular German) civilization would
> > steer the ship of state in the right direction after solving the
> > initial problems.
> Are you referring to "The Final Solution"? Or do you have something
> else in mind? "Western Civilization" has no moral backbone. It never
> had. WC is about one thing, and one thing only: accumulating money
> and tangible assets. How about a quick check of what the Dutch did
> in Indonesia and South Africa? Or what the Belgians did in Congo?

It is not just Western Civilisations that lack moral backbone and that are all about money you self-hating idiot. All nations are like this. And Eastern Nations are much more morally corrupt than any western nation is - try getting this in your head. Singapore is all about money as well... if it wasn't, it wouldn't be where it is today. We all live in a capitalist world, you idiot - that is how we survive... Furthermore Singapore criminalised homosexuality in 2007, only legalising it in 2022... seems as if the west is morally superior in many ways. But since you hate the West, just as you hate yourself, you will not see this.

The problem certainly is that Western Nations (such as Germany) "always" backstab Israel (yes, often because of monetary gains, such businesses with Iran). Trump didn't backstab Israel in his politics (I am just naming facts), Biden is.

Sidenote:
Amnesty International still hasn't reported on the terrorist act by the "Palestinian" that killed 3 Israelis. But if Israel defends itself from rocketfire from Gaza and some Gazaian civilist dies in this process (as Gaza puts the rocket-launchers in civilist areas), Amnesty will immediately condemn and ask Israel to "deescalate", as if Israel was responsible for the escalation in the first place - quite the distortion of events by Amnesty International.

>
> You call that "civilization" just because Bruegel painted nice looking
> postcards ?!? I won't waste your time to review French behavior in
> Indo-China, or British behavior in all its colonies. Have you ever
> been to Hong Kong?
>
> https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/dr_hermes/14666255/594017/594017_900.jpg
>
> You call that "civilization" ?!?

I have been to Hongkong more than one time (Shangri-La Hotel in Kowloon, I can only recommend). A friend of mine worked there; she left after China got crazy and megalomaniac trying to totally annex HK.

Are you fucking stupid? HK is a beacon of human rights compared to China, and if you had any idea of HK's relationship with China, you would at least sort of understandn why HK-people would feel this way.

You idolize singapore that only recently legitimised homosexuality, but shit all over hk... You idiot.

The HK-people were asking the USA to help, because they know that the West respects human rights more than China. They were waving US-flags (https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/09/hong-kong-protesters-1486227 - I didn't read the article, I linked it for the flags).

If you support the Ukrainians against Russia, you idiot should also support HK-people against China.

How fucking stupid are you DK?

> > I lost that confidence after Rabin's assassination. Since then,
> > I have been more critical than I was, and in my opinion with
> > good reason.
> You didn't lose that "confidence" when Nasser and his goons
> attacked Israel with the openly stated goal to exterminate all
> the Jews? Your headline memory appears to be extremely
> selective. Or were you distracted by watching Ashkenazy
> win the QE piano rodeo?
>
> You have a really twisted mind. You are basically saying
> (however politely) that the Israeli-Arab conflict is nothing
> but the result of Israeli intransigence. The other side is of
> course pure and innocent of any wrong doings.
>
> You are a cultural and social anti-semite. Case closed.
>
> dk

DON'T FEED THE TROLLS

If you are in any doubt about how a troll operates, read this.....

https://theconversation.com/dont-feed-the-trolls-really-is-good-advice-heres-the-evidence-63657

On 2/12/2023 7:06 PM, HT wrote:
> Op zondag 12 februari 2023 om 22:51:20 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:
>
>> If you are suggesting the land belongs to the "original population",
>> then it clearly belongs to the Jewish people before any other group
>> can claim it.
>>
>> You really need to revisit your history.
>
> No need. I was once well-versed in Middle Eastern history. It was more than half a century ago, but I have not forgotten the headlines.
>
> Of course, we can argue about the "original" population and to whom the land once "belonged". Perhaps an interesting history lesson, and at least a boost for the legal minds among us.
>
> In my opinion, it would not do justice to the fact that: 1. Zionism was the answer to a problem (autonomy, security) that needed solving more urgently than ever, and 2. the Promised Land was the only place all could call home thanks to a shared tradition.
> To deny (to paraphrase Frank) 1. and 2. is, in my view, anti-Zionist. These points cannot be separated - whatever the consequences.
> I think the real discussion is about 3.: how to deal with the consequences.
>
> Initially, I trusted that the women and men who once formed the backbone of Western (in particular German) civilization would steer the ship of state in the right direction after solving the initial problems. I lost that confidence after Rabin's assassination. Since then, I have been more critical than I was, and in my opinion with good reason.
>
> Henk
>

There is a prevalent idea among the Left that somehow Rabin would have made "peace" with the Palestinians. This is a convenient pipe dream. This could theoretically have been true if there was a Palestinian entity in existence that accepted the idea of a two-state solution. There wasn't and there isn't. Maybe in a generation or two, but the acceptance will probably come too late.

On 2/13/2023 2:13 AM, Herman wrote:
> On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 3:50:16 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
>> On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 6:41:36 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
>>> On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 2:36:12 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>
>>>> No, we cannot argue. These are
>>>> verifiable, measurable, historical
>>>> facts.
>>>
>>> Says Putin about occupying Ukraine,
>>> which has never existed, according
>>> to his facts.
>>
>
>>
>> You have now shown your true
>> colors as a rabid,
>
> No I'm not. You are the rabid racist here, and you've brought a couple of crazy mouth-foaming racists here after you turned RMCR into a racist free for all.
> All I did was point out that these "historical facts" are problematic in a world of constant migration and overpopulation and its concomitant competition for, shall we say, Lebensraum.

There are two different discussions to be had on the issue of Zionism.

One is who is right and who is wrong. Who has a claim and who doesn't and so forth. This is what we usually talk about. Probably pointlessly.

The other is purely practical. Israel the country exists and is simply not going anywhere, at least not voluntarily. They hold possession of (if you like, "occupy") the West Bank (or if you, like Judea and Samaria) for now. Whether they will give any of it up for a Palestinian state or a Jordanian/Palestinian confederacy or simply annex it or maintain the status quo is unknown, but it will be Israel's choice, not those who like to cast a cloud on the Jews' historical presence or claim.

> There is a prevalent idea among the Left that somehow Rabin would have made "peace" with the Palestinians. This is a convenient pipe dream. This could theoretically have been true if there was a Palestinian entity in existence that accepted the idea of a two-state solution. There wasn't and there isn't. Maybe in a generation or two, but the acceptance will probably come too late.

I didn't expect Rabin to come to some kind of understanding with Arafat. Arafat was an unguided projectile. The fact that Rabin was murdered for trying to keep the option open, proved that I had been too naive about Israel's position.

A deal is farther away than ever before, imho. Let's hope that I'm too cynical this time.

Henk

On 2/13/2023 10:11 AM, HT wrote:
>
>> There is a prevalent idea among the Left that somehow Rabin would have made "peace" with the Palestinians. This is a convenient pipe dream. This could theoretically have been true if there was a Palestinian entity in existence that accepted the idea of a two-state solution. There wasn't and there isn't. Maybe in a generation or two, but the acceptance will probably come too late.
>
> I didn't expect Rabin to come to some kind of understanding with Arafat. Arafat was an unguided projectile. The fact that Rabin was murdered for trying to keep the option open, proved that I had been too naive about Israel's position.
>
> A deal is farther away than ever before, imho. Let's hope that I'm too cynical this time.
>
> Henk

As in all political assassinations, Rabin was murdered by an individual, not a movement. There are always nuts with the potential to do harm.

Op maandag 13 februari 2023 om 16:45:12 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:

> As in all political assassinations, Rabin was murdered by an individual, not a movement. There are always nuts with the potential to do harm.

Correct - and in my opinion, he did a lot more harm than he expected to do. But that's what it is. The next generations have to do better, on both sides.

Henk

Marc S schrieb am Montag, 13. Februar 2023 um 14:14:00 UTC+1:
> Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 13. Februar 2023 um 02:36:12 UTC+1:
> > You call that "civilization" just because Bruegel painted nice looking
> > postcards ?!? I won't waste your time to review French behavior in
> > Indo-China, or British behavior in all its colonies. Have you ever
> > been to Hong Kong?
> >
> > https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/dr_hermes/14666255/594017/594017_900.jpg
> >
> > You call that "civilization" ?!?
> I have been to Hongkong more than one time (Shangri-La Hotel in Kowloon, I can only recommend). A friend of mine worked there; she left after China got crazy and megalomaniac trying to totally annex HK.
>
> Are you fucking stupid? HK is a beacon of human rights compared to China, and if you had any idea of HK's relationship with China, you would at least sort of understandn why HK-people would feel this way.
>
> You idolize singapore that only recently legitimised homosexuality, but shit all over hk... You idiot.
>
> The HK-people were asking the USA to help, because they know that the West respects human rights more than China. They were waving US-flags (https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/09/hong-kong-protesters-1486227 - I didn't read the article, I linked it for the flags).
>
> If you support the Ukrainians against Russia, you idiot should also support HK-people against China.
>
> How fucking stupid are you DK?

Okay, I just realized actually... I was the stupid one here... The picture of yours with the sign "No Chinese Allowed" is actually from a brit; I thought it was from a HK-citizen as a sign of protest against the chinese.

Anyway, the rest of my point still stands.

Without the west, there wouln't even be human rights as we understand them today. Jews were emancipated in the west (yes, we know, it also led to the shoah; but you can't reduce it on this, as the west also fought Germany), the West abolished slavery, not the east; the east had as many slaves as the west, no difference - well there is one: the west actually treats these subjects critically in school, the east doesn't.

The Enlightenment was a western achievement. It was only possible because of greek philosophy, judaism, christianity etc.

The east hates the west because of its achievements, and the west hates itself because of its apparent abuses of human rights in the past (which should be condemed ofc, but elsewhere as well).

One only ever talks about the colonies of western states, not about the colonies of arab states or the abuses of human rights of other states. Why did Deacon not create a single topic about Iran, but 3 about Israel? Why does GGGG always post negative stuff about the USA, under titles such "This only happens in the USA". How about a "This only happens in Palestine", or "This only happens in the south of lebanon" or "This only happens in Iran" etc.

And if a guy like Trump - who is a proud american - gets voted in, all the hate gets unloaded onto him. All the self-hatred. One jokes about his hair, but on music forums one says one should not judge the physique of a pianist etc. Biden ofc does not get ridiculed by the press, even though he is the way bigger clown than Trump. It's all so obvious, and you don't see it. You just continue hating on the west, and guys like Netanyahu, Trump etc.

> > dk

Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 13. Februar 2023 um 02:36:12 UTC+1:
> You call that "civilization" just because Bruegel painted nice looking
> postcards ?!? I won't waste your time to review French behavior in
> Indo-China, or British behavior in all its colonies. Have you ever
> been to Hong Kong?
>
> https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/dr_hermes/14666255/594017/594017_900.jpg
>

You also have to look at this the other way around: The only reason why Hongkong is where it is today, and why it is better than China is because of the colonisation... wrt to human rights, the living standards etc.

So, the West wasn't completely bad for HK, sure, they could have done things better, but as you can see the citizens of HK still rely on the west (despite of past and current racist attitudes; there are also racist HK-citizens)

Yes there were racist brits, just as non-racist brits. And there were also Chinese racists... just look at what China is doing wrt to Uyghurs...

> dk

On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 5:58:40 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
>
> DON'T FEED THE TROLLS

On the contrary, feed them ... to the sharks! ;-)

dk

Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 14. Februar 2023 um 00:11:10 UTC+1:
> On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 5:58:40 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
> >
> > DON'T FEED THE TROLLS
> On the contrary, feed them ... to the sharks! ;-)
>
> dk

Now since you were honest with Henk, how about you try being honest with Andy? You know... he is an antisemite as well.

You have no principles, you are a hypocrite.