On Friday, 3 March 2023 at 16:15:27 UTC, Herman wrote:

> All of this was obvious, however, due to two or three horrible trolls who want to turn a music group into something where everything has to be about HATE, you feel obliged to justify and exculpate yourself.
>
> The same way I had to do after I had accidentally said Isabelle Faust could play the violin - which made me an anti-semite in the eyes of these horrible ghouls.

Herman......I laughed out loud and carried on for quite a while. It really is as absurd as you say. I still can't stop laughing......

Op vrijdag 3 maart 2023 om 16:52:47 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
> Listen carefully. Despite all the nonsense and lies that have been printed on threads here about my views:
> - I am not antisemitic
> - I am critical about the politics of Israel, like many International institutions and demonstrators in Tel Aviv itself
>
> Let me put it another way - people are just people
> - I am not anti Russians, anti Chinese, anti Americans or whatever people, as people
> - I am critical about the politics of Russia, China, America and a number of other countries, like many International institutions, demonstrators etc. etc. I am critical about the UK, my own country, when it steps out of line.
>
> I went to an international school, have lived and worked in 3 different countries and speak 3 languages plus some Russian. From an early age I knew a large number of people from other countries, and this continued in all my years as a musician. To me people are just people. Simple as that. Always has been, always will be.
>
> Politics is a different matter. Anyone who isn't critical of politics has their head in the sand. Don't confuse the two. That's all.

Andy, there is a tendency to broaden the definition to such a degree that even calling a (fictional) dog 'Israel' has been said [by a Dutch politician and literary critic (RIP)] to be an antisemitic act.

Antisemitism is the belief that in general the world would be better off without Jews and anti-Zionism that in general the world would be better off without Israel.

It's clear that some believe that these problems have been solved and keep themselves busy by wishing a 'santo subito' for Israel.

Henk

In article <09219f58-82e7-492d-9215-df8da732e4e3n@googlegroups.com>,
Andy Evans <performanceandmedia@gmail.com> wrote:
>Herman......I laughed out loud and carried on for quite a while. It
>really is as absurd as you say. I still can't stop laughing......

The part that isn't funny is that these are still real problems.
But that's really the point: To undermine legitimate concerns with
a bunch of crap.

On 3/3/2023 2:11 PM, HT wrote:
> Op vrijdag 3 maart 2023 om 16:52:47 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
>> Listen carefully. Despite all the nonsense and lies that have been printed on threads here about my views:
>> - I am not antisemitic
>> - I am critical about the politics of Israel, like many International institutions and demonstrators in Tel Aviv itself
>>
>> Let me put it another way - people are just people
>> - I am not anti Russians, anti Chinese, anti Americans or whatever people, as people
>> - I am critical about the politics of Russia, China, America and a number of other countries, like many International institutions, demonstrators etc. etc. I am critical about the UK, my own country, when it steps out of line.
>>
>> I went to an international school, have lived and worked in 3 different countries and speak 3 languages plus some Russian. From an early age I knew a large number of people from other countries, and this continued in all my years as a musician. To me people are just people. Simple as that. Always has been, always will be.
>>
>> Politics is a different matter. Anyone who isn't critical of politics has their head in the sand. Don't confuse the two. That's all.
>
> Andy, there is a tendency to broaden the definition to such a degree that even calling a (fictional) dog 'Israel' has been said [by a Dutch politician and literary critic (RIP)] to be an antisemitic act.
>

The accusation that significant number of Jews or other Israel supporters would call naming a dog "Israel" an antisemitic act is ridiculous. Leveling such a false charge knowingly, is in fact, antisemitic. What else could it be? Saying that Jews or Zionists "always" claim that all criticism if Israel or its government is antisemitic or even anti-Zionist is equally false and potentially antisemitic.

> Antisemitism is the belief that in general the world would be better off without Jews and anti-Zionism that in general the world would be better off without Israel.
>
> It's clear that some believe that these problems have been solved and keep themselves busy by wishing a 'santo subito' for Israel.
>
> Henk

I've never heard anyone, even the most ardent Zionist claim sainthood for Israel. Many consider the establishment, survival and success of Israel to be a revealed miracle. I don't know about that, not having been informed.

And before someone says, " there goes Berger again, talking about Israel," I didn't start it. I never do.

On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 7:53:13 AM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 3/3/2023 7:26 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 4:05:34 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
> >>
> >> Furthermore there are many great people in Chabad...
> >> there are many orthodox Jews who are scientists etc.
> >> Things you don't see. You should open your eyes;
> >> Chabad people are not against civilisation
> >
> > Chabad people are against secular civilization.
> > You don't seem to be able to get it through
> > your thick krautkopf head that the majority
> > of Jews in Israel are not religious and do
> > not want to live under a theocratic regime.
> >
> Do you define "theocratic regime" as any system
> where the Rabbinate has any influence in political
> life? There is zero chance that there will ever be a
> theocratic regime in Israel, barring the arrival of the
> Messiah.

A theocratic regime is a regime where a/the "church"
(regardless of its nature) can impose its dogmas on
ordinary citizens who do not subscribe to a particular
religion. Israel is clearly a theocratic regime, even if
not the only one on this planet.

> >> and they don't want to force anything on anyone
> >
> > You clearly don't know anything about how the
> > religious minority in Israel force the rest of the
> > population to abide by their medieval notions.
>
> Generalization. I've asked orthodox Rabbis about
> this and it seems to me most would not support a
> theocracy.

It doesn't matter what the rabbis say -- what matters
is what they actually do in real life on the ground.

Can you explain why a couple should be barred
from marrying because the woman was divorced?

dk

> The accusation that significant number of Jews or other Israel supporters would call naming a dog "Israel" an antisemitic act is ridiculous. Leveling such a false charge knowingly, is in fact, antisemitic. What else could it be? Saying that Jews or Zionists "always" claim that all criticism if Israel or its government is antisemitic or even anti-Zionist is equally false and potentially antisemitic.

You must be highly prejudiced against Jews, if you believe that they are the only ones crying "antisemite" at every opportunity. Marc S. is no Jew. Why do you believe that the politician and literary critic was a Jew? I have no idea. However, I do know that he had a few followers - and It would surprise me if most, let alone all, were Jewish.

> I've never heard anyone, even the most ardent Zionist claim sainthood for Israel. Many consider the establishment, survival and success of Israel to be a revealed miracle. I don't know about that, not having been informed.

Saints are beyond reproach. Some believe Israel is. I would appreciate it if it were but don't see it happen in the near future.

> And before someone says, " there goes Berger again, talking about Israel," I didn't start it. I never do.

Indeed, you never start a fight - you don't end it either. But it's always a pleasure.

Henk

On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 3:30:28 PM UTC-8, HT wrote:
>
> Saints are beyond reproach. Some believe Israel is.

No one believes Israel is beyond reproach. Not even
Marc Schiss. You are making this up.

> I would appreciate it if it were but don't see it happen
> in the near future.

No one nation is beyond reproach, and none will ever be.

Israel is not perfect, but it is better than most. Don't you
find it intriguing (to say the least) that the same folks who
keep complaining about Israel's imperfections have nothing
to say about Iran, Russia, Myanmar, Afghanistan, Malaysia,
Syria, Turkey, or any of a number of South East Asian or
South American countries that are so much worse than
Israel in every respect? This is a textbook example of
social and political anti-semitism. Go lecture your
friends in Kabul.

dk

On Saturday, 4 March 2023 at 01:21:06 UTC, Dan Koren wrote:
> Israel is not perfect, but it is better than most. Don't you
> find it intriguing (to say the least) that the same folks who
> keep complaining about Israel's imperfections have nothing
> to say about Iran, Russia, Myanmar, Afghanistan, Malaysia,
> Syria, Turkey, or any of a number of South East Asian or
> South American countries that are so much worse than
> Israel in every respect?

Not in the least intriguing. Do we have to talk about the rest of the world in every post? Abuses in other countries are very well known and don't need pointing out with a big stick.

This is a textbook example of > social and political anti-semitism.
> dk

Rubbish

On Saturday, March 4, 2023 at 1:41:10 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Saturday, 4 March 2023 at 01:21:06 UTC, Dan Koren wrote:
> > Israel is not perfect, but it is better than most. Don't you
> > find it intriguing (to say the least) that the same folks who
> > keep complaining about Israel's imperfections have nothing
> > to say about Iran, Russia, Myanmar, Afghanistan, Malaysia,
> > Syria, Turkey, or any of a number of South East Asian or
> > South American countries that are so much worse than
> > Israel in every respect?
>
> Not in the least intriguing. Do we have to talk about the rest
> of the world in every post? Abuses in other countries are very
> well known and don't need pointing out with a big stick.

Obviously the fact you and others are more preoccupied
with "abuses" in Israel than in other countries suggests a
bias that cannot simply be dismissed because those in
other countries are supposedly "well known". You are
just proving my point. This is classical, textbook
social and political antisemitism.

There is plenty of well documented anti-semitism
in the UK. Fix that first and then talk about Israel.

dk

On Saturday, 4 March 2023 at 09:54:18 UTC, Dan Koren wrote:

> Obviously the fact you and others are more preoccupied
> with "abuses" in Israel than in other countries suggests a
> bias that cannot simply be dismissed because those in
> other countries are supposedly "well known". You are
> just proving my point. This is classical, textbook
> social and political antisemitism.
> dk

Open your eyes to what's happening here. For months this ng has been flooded with endless posts about antisemitism from the TROLL Marc S, including incessant baseless accusations against me and many others. You have COLLUDED with this troll by answering most of his posts. Meanwhile I and others with any sense in their heads have been trying to IGNORE this TROLL. The preoccupation with Israel is as much your doing as anyone elses.

For the rest of us this is BORING, BORING, BORING, BORING, BORING, BORING, BORING, BORING........

For God's sake start talking about ANYTHING else. Like abuses in Myanmar, since that clearly interests you.

On Saturday, March 4, 2023 at 2:06:34 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Saturday, 4 March 2023 at 09:54:18 UTC, Dan Koren wrote:
>
> > Obviously the fact you and others are more preoccupied
> > with "abuses" in Israel than in other countries suggests a
> > bias that cannot simply be dismissed because those in
> > other countries are supposedly "well known". You are
> > just proving my point. This is classical, textbook
> > social and political antisemitism.
>
> Open your eyes to what's happening here. For months this ng
> has been flooded with endless posts about antisemitism from
> the TROLL Marc S, including incessant baseless accusations
> against me and many others. You have COLLUDED with this
> troll by answering most of his posts. Meanwhile I and others
> with any sense in their heads have been trying to IGNORE this
> TROLL. The preoccupation with Israel is as much your doing as
> anyone elses.

Is that surprising considering I am Israeli? There are others in
this ng who appear to be even more preoccupied with Israel
even though they have no skin in the game.

> For the rest of us this is BORING, BORING, BORING, BORING,
> BORING, BORING, BORING, BORING........

No one is preventing you or anyone else from posting about
other topics.

> For God's sake start talking about ANYTHING else. Like abuses
> in Myanmar, since that clearly interests you.

Let's have the group moderated. All your problems will go away.

dk

> > I would appreciate it if it were but don't see it happen
> > in the near future.
> No one nation is beyond reproach, and none will ever be.

Good to hear you say that. There are people who are even offended when a dog in a novel is named Israel.

> Israel is not perfect, but it is better than most. Don't you
> find it intriguing (to say the least) that the same folks who
> keep complaining about Israel's imperfections have nothing
> to say about Iran, Russia, Myanmar, Afghanistan, Malaysia,
> Syria, Turkey, or any of a number of South East Asian or
> South American countries that are so much worse than
> Israel in every respect?

Why would you want us to look away from what happens in Israel, in particular on the West Bank? And why that lame excuse: others are even worse than we are ...

> This is a textbook example of
> social and political anti-semitism. Go lecture your
> friends in Kabul.

From social-cultural to social-political? You read too many textbooks. As for my friend in Kabul, he sends you his greetings.

Henk

On Saturday, March 4, 2023 at 2:54:11 AM UTC-8, HT wrote:
> > > I would appreciate it if it were but don't see it happen
> > > in the near future.
> >
> > No one nation is beyond reproach, and none will ever be.
>
> Good to hear you say that. There are people who are even
> offended when a dog in a novel is named Israel.

I am offended by the very existence of dogs. Remember
gods work with and for the police. Cats do not.

> > Israel is not perfect, but it is better than most. Don't you
> > find it intriguing (to say the least) that the same folks who
> > keep complaining about Israel's imperfections have nothing
> > to say about Iran, Russia, Myanmar, Afghanistan, Malaysia,
> > Syria, Turkey, or any of a number of South East Asian or
> > South American countries that are so much worse than
> > Israel in every respect?
>
> Why would you want us to look away from what happens
> in Israel, in particular on the West Bank?

No one is looking away. And one should also look at what
happens in Israel when Arab terrorists blow up busses and
kill civilians.

> And why that lame excuse: others are even worse than
> we are ...

It is not an excuse, it is a diagnosis of social and political
anti-semitism. You, Andy and a few others spend far more
time criticizing Israel than any other nation. This particular
focus is a dead giveaway that you are fundamentally social
and political antisemites.

dk

On Saturday, 4 March 2023 at 11:05:29 UTC, Dan Koren wrote:
You, Andy and a few others spend far more time criticizing Israel than any other nation. This particular
> focus is a dead giveaway that you are fundamentally social
> and political antisemites. > > dk

A complete non-sequitor. And anyway I've said virtually NOTHING about Israel on this ng other than saying it's not above criticism. All the unrelenting claptrap about antisemitism comes from you yourself and Marc S. If you and Marc S consider yourselves to be the shop window for Israel, don't be surprised if you don't have any customers.

On Saturday, March 4, 2023 at 3:13:46 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Saturday, 4 March 2023 at 11:05:29 UTC, Dan Koren wrote:
> You,
> > Andy and a few others spend far more time criticizing Israel
> > than any other nation. This particular focus is a dead giveaway
> > that you are fundamentally social and political antisemites.
>
> A complete non-sequitor. And anyway I've said virtually NOTHING
> about Israel on this ng other than saying it's not above criticism.
> All the unrelenting claptrap about antisemitism comes from you
> yourself and Marc S. If you and Marc S consider yourselves to be
> the shop window for Israel, don't be surprised if you don't have any
> customers.

I am not looking for customers. Neither is Israel. Yet another example
of anti-semitic bias. And I do speak for Marc, or coordinate with him.

dk

> It is not an excuse, it is a diagnosis of social and political
> anti-semitism. You, Andy and a few others spend far more
> time criticizing Israel than any other nation. This particular
> focus is a dead giveaway that you are fundamentally social
> and political antisemites.

An interesting quantitative definition of antisemitism: the more one focusses on Israel without being an Israeli the more antisemitic one is. This is a bad day for Marc S.
The definition also has a hidden meaning: it implies a condemnation of those who focus on the fate of Palestinians on the West Bank.
The bookish title social-political antisemitism is clearly an indication not to reproach Israel and to forget about the Palestinians.

You know that I won't do that. But if I ever take a dog, I won't call him Israel.

Henk

On Saturday, March 4, 2023 at 4:11:44 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> On Saturday, March 4, 2023 at 10:54:18 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> >
> > There is plenty of well documented anti-semitism
> > in the UK. Fix that first and then talk about Israel.
> >
> Some people are trying to "fix" racism here on RMCR,
> of which you are the main and most prolific perp.

Nope. I am not trying to "fix" racism, only to expose it.
Racism is not fixable, or at least not in a short time.

For individual solutions, please see your physician.

dk

On Saturday, 4 March 2023 at 12:10:16 UTC, Herman wrote:
> Whoever starts a RMCR topic has experienced it will be hijacked by DK who wants the entire ng to be about him and his stupid preoccupations. RMCR is just fucked, plain and simple.

You're probably right. It needs more input from you, Ray, Owen, HT, Andrew and several others who have much to give to this sinking ship. Maybe the ship can be righted, maybe not.

On 2023-03-04 11:24:09 +0000, HT said:

> > It is not an excuse, it is a diagnosis of social and political
>> anti-semitism. You, Andy and a few others spend far more
>> time criticizing Israel than any other nation. This particular
>> focus is a dead giveaway that you are fundamentally social
>> and political antisemites.
>
> An interesting quantitative definition of antisemitism: the more one
> focusses on Israel without being an Israeli the more antisemitic one
> is. This is a bad day for Marc S.
> The definition also has a hidden meaning: it implies a condemnation of
> those who focus on the fate of Palestinians on the West Bank.
> The bookish title social-political antisemitism is clearly an
> indication not to reproach Israel and to forget about the Palestinians.
>
> You know that I won't do that. But if I ever take a dog, I won't call
> him Israel.
>
> Henk

No! No!

His name's not Israel !!!!

It's ISHMAEL

Call him ISHMAEL !

-Owen

P.S. Here, puppy!

-O

On 3/4/2023 12:27 PM, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> On 2023-03-04 11:24:09 +0000, HT said:
>
>> > It is not an excuse, it is a diagnosis of social and political
>>> anti-semitism. You, Andy and a few others spend far more
>>> time criticizing Israel than any other nation. This particular
>>> focus is a dead giveaway that you are fundamentally social
>>> and political antisemites.
>>
>> An interesting quantitative definition of antisemitism: the more one focusses on Israel without being an Israeli the more antisemitic one is. This is a bad day for Marc S.

That's just silly; focuses on Israel in an exclusively negative way while ignoring atrocities elsewhere would be more the point.

>> The definition also has a hidden meaning: it implies a condemnation of those who focus on the fate of Palestinians on the West Bank.

Again, focuses on the suffering of Palestinians while ignoring that much of their suffering is a result of terrorism against Jews would be more exact. Several here have mentioned in multiple posts Israeli behavior in the West Bank especially, without mentioning terrorism, as if Israel is not allowed to respond to it. My own feeling is that underneath this sort of attitude is the belief, that the West Bank (if not Israel proper) belongs to the Palestinians, has been, or is being, stolen by Israel, and that terrorism is therefore understood, if not necessarily condoned, but is at least swept under the rug.

>> The bookish title social-political antisemitism is clearly an indication not to reproach Israel and to forget about the Palestinians.
>>
>> You know that I won't do that. But if I ever take a dog, I won't call him Israel.
>>
>> Henk
>
>
> No!  No!
>
> His name's not Israel  !!!!
>
> It's ISHMAEL
>
> Call him ISHMAEL !
>
>
> -Owen
>
> P.S.  Here, puppy!
>
> -O
>
>

On Saturday, 4 March 2023 at 22:05:29 UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Saturday, March 4, 2023 at 2:54:11 AM UTC-8, HT wrote:
> > > > I would appreciate it if it were but don't see it happen
> > > > in the near future.
> > >
> > > No one nation is beyond reproach, and none will ever be.
> >
> > Good to hear you say that. There are people who are even
> > offended when a dog in a novel is named Israel.
> I am offended by the very existence of dogs. Remember
> gods work with and for the police. Cats do not.

Because they are far too dumb. Dogs are far smarter and far more amenable, and useful, as animals. You are entitled to your views, but it flies in the face of reality, and is a rather asinine statement. I'd like to think it was a rhetorical bit of silliness. Dogs also help people and organisations in a multitude of ways, from the beginning of time, besides acting as animal companions.
Ray Hall, Taree

On Saturday, March 4, 2023 at 10:24:22 PM UTC-8, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, 4 March 2023 at 22:05:29 UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Saturday, March 4, 2023 at 2:54:11 AM UTC-8, HT wrote:
> > > > > I would appreciate it if it were but don't see it happen
> > > > > in the near future.
> > > >
> > > > No one nation is beyond reproach, and none will ever be.
> > >
> > > Good to hear you say that. There are people who are even
> > > offended when a dog in a novel is named Israel.
> >
> > I am offended by the very existence of dogs. Remember
> > dogs work with and for the police. Cats do not.
>
> Because they are far too dumb.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8QtsyNXvFg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kJHaLs8lRc

You should see the piano challenge! ;-)

> Dogs are far smarter and far more amenable, and
> useful, as animals.

Dogs follow people. Cats follow no one.

> You are entitled to your views, but it flies in the face
> of reality, and is a rather asinine statement.

It was a feline statement.

> I'd like to think it was a rhetorical bit of silliness. Dogs
> also help people and organisations in a multitude of
> ways, from the beginning of time, besides acting as
> animal companions.

Cats were (and still are) worshipped as gods/godesses
by more than one civilization. Does anyone worship dogs?

Dogs may be useful helpers, however cats made civilization
possible.

dk

Dear Frank,

Typical reasoning. Do I have to look at other atrocities in the world before I can say something is an atrocity? How would that work in practice?

Zionism does not need to be defended. It is a solution to an essential problem. The fact is that, like any solution, it creates new problems. It depends on how one deals with those.

One person's terrorism is another person's fight for freedom. Usually the rule of proportionality counts. The question is whether Israel's actions are proportionate. On that we probably differ.

By the way, we are having this discussion not because of Israel, but because colleagues have been accused of anti-Semitism based on a stretched, limitless definition of it (an oxymoron). Such accusations serve no cause except one's self-righteousness.

Henk

On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 12:22:10 PM UTC+1, HT wrote:
> Dear Frank,
>
> Typical reasoning. Do I have to look at other atrocities in the world before I can say something is an atrocity? How would that work in practice?
>
> Also, we are pouring countless billions into Ukraine, to fight the atrocities Russia is committing, and that's just one thing.

On 3/5/2023 6:22 AM, HT wrote:
> Dear Frank,
>
> Typical reasoning.

Typical of what? Me? Zionists? A poor argument, if that's what it is supposed to be.

Do I have to look at other atrocities in the world before I can say something is an atrocity? How would that work in practice?
>

A person who specializes in criticizing Israeli behavior to the exclusion of that of any other country is a suspect for antisemitism. I don't even see how one could argue otherwise.
I'm not talking about you or anyone in particular, except probably Roger Waters.

> Zionism does not need to be defended. It is a solution to an essential problem.

Of course it needs to be defended. You mean I don't need to defend it to you? That was not my intent. I never suspected or hinted that you are in any way an antisemite.