England Swings SF edited by Judith Merril

https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/lullabies-in-an-ancient-tongue
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 7:47:33 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
> England Swings SF edited by Judith Merril

> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/lullabies-in-an-ancient-tongue

Despite being "New Wave", these stories sound interesting.

John Savard

On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 07:39:33 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 7:47:33 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
>> England Swings SF edited by Judith Merril
>
>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/lullabies-in-an-ancient-tongue
>
>Despite being "New Wave", these stories sound interesting.

Wasn't "New Wave" something that came out in the mid-70s or so?

Or is this a /new/ "New Wave"? Or have their been several, with this
being "New Wave 5" or whatever?

I really haven't been keeping up with this stuff.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

In article <flj8fg1ad5a9qmbe8agorhu4b3tq7fq2f6@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 07:39:33 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
><jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 7:47:33 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> England Swings SF edited by Judith Merril
>>
>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/lullabies-in-an-ancient-tongue
>>
>>Despite being "New Wave", these stories sound interesting.
>
>Wasn't "New Wave" something that came out in the mid-70s or so?
>
It began in the 1960s. This might be seen as the essential English book
documenting it, while Dangerous Visions isn't a bad stab at a US survey,
although mid-volume Orbits probably offer a better assortment of stories.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Wave_science_fiction

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 11:55:37 AM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 07:39:33 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 7:47:33 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> England Swings SF edited by Judith Merril
> >
> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/lullabies-in-an-ancient-tongue
> >
> >Despite being "New Wave", these stories sound interesting.
> Wasn't "New Wave" something that came out in the mid-70s or so?
>
> Or is this a /new/ "New Wave"? Or have their been several, with this
> being "New Wave 5" or whatever?
>
> I really haven't been keeping up with this stuff.

Mid-late 1960s -- see http://www.sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/new_wave
for details, including:

> By the 1970s there no longer seemed very much point to the term,
> although newly prominent figures like Gardner Dozois, Barry N Malzberg,
> Joanna Russ, James Tiptree Jr and Gene Wolfe clearly wrote in styles
> or modes that would have been called New Wave only a year or so earlier.

In article <flj8fg1ad5a9qmbe8agorhu4b3tq7fq2f6@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 07:39:33 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
><jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 7:47:33 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> England Swings SF edited by Judith Merril
>>
>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/lullabies-in-an-ancient-tongue
>>
>>Despite being "New Wave", these stories sound interesting.
>
>Wasn't "New Wave" something that came out in the mid-70s or so?
>
>Or is this a /new/ "New Wave"? Or have their been several, with this
>being "New Wave 5" or whatever?
>
>I really haven't been keeping up with this stuff.

I can remember when we were calling it "The New Wave in Norman
Spinrad's Hair."

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

In article <e4914868-2406-4bf4-b2a6-84cea745642fn@googlegroups.com>,
Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> wrote:
>On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 11:55:37 AM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 07:39:33 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>> >On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 7:47:33 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
>> >> England Swings SF edited by Judith Merril
>> >
>> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/lullabies-in-an-ancient-tongue
>> >
>> >Despite being "New Wave", these stories sound interesting.
>> Wasn't "New Wave" something that came out in the mid-70s or so?
>>
>> Or is this a /new/ "New Wave"? Or have their been several, with this
>> being "New Wave 5" or whatever?
>>
>> I really haven't been keeping up with this stuff.
>
>Mid-late 1960s -- see http://www.sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/new_wave
>for details, including:
>
>> By the 1970s there no longer seemed very much point to the term,
>> although newly prominent figures like Gardner Dozois, Barry N Malzberg,
>> Joanna Russ, James Tiptree Jr and Gene Wolfe clearly wrote in styles
>> or modes that would have been called New Wave only a year or so earlier.

Because by then it wasn't new.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 9:47:33 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> England Swings SF edited by Judith Merril
>
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/lullabies-in-an-ancient-tongue

For those who reflexively hate anything New Wave, I'd like to point
out that Keith Roberts' version of NW fiction is eminently readable
and coherent. It would be a mistake to avoid his work because of
his NW associations.

Some on this group may be reassured by the fact that he called
himself a conservative (for his time, anyway).

He matured into a great stylist, but not the kind that gets that way with funny
punctuation or sentences without verbs. The kind that uses the right word in
the right place at the right time.

He didn't spoon-feed the reader, and his novels could be puzzling for a while,
but explanations were always available. I didn't understand a line in Pavane, for
example: "What you steal from us, you are welcome to keep" (more or less). But the
meaning soon became clear.

His earlier works include disaster novels (at the time a requirement
of all British SF writers), some fantasy, etc. All readable.

If I had to name a favourite novel it would be "Pavane", a favourite
shorter work, the novelette "Weinachtsabend". Both parallel
world stories.

Rereading the first section of Pavane, I think I see the influence of
Bennett's "Clayhanger". Roberts was just the kind of guy to have
read every word of Bennett's. And also Wyndham.

William Hyde

On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 9:55:37 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 07:39:33 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 7:47:33 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> England Swings SF edited by Judith Merril

> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/lullabies-in-an-ancient-tongue

> >Despite being "New Wave", these stories sound interesting.

> Wasn't "New Wave" something that came out in the mid-70s or so?

> Or is this a /new/ "New Wave"? Or have their been several, with this
> being "New Wave 5" or whatever?

Since Judith Merril's England Swings SF collection is a book from _1968_,
I fail to see how it must inevitably represent a "New Wave" that is newer
than the one you remember from around the mid-70's.

John Savard

On 2021-07-18, William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 9:47:33 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>> England Swings SF edited by Judith Merril
>>
>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/lullabies-in-an-ancient-tongue
>
> For those who reflexively hate anything New Wave, I'd like to point
> out that Keith Roberts' version of NW fiction is eminently readable
> and coherent. It would be a mistake to avoid his work because of
> his NW associations.
>
> Some on this group may be reassured by the fact that he called
> himself a conservative (for his time, anyway).
>
> He matured into a great stylist, but not the kind that gets that way with funny
> punctuation or sentences without verbs. The kind that uses the right word in
> the right place at the right time.
>
> He didn't spoon-feed the reader, and his novels could be puzzling for a while,
> but explanations were always available. I didn't understand a line in Pavane, for
> example: "What you steal from us, you are welcome to keep" (more or less). But the
> meaning soon became clear.
>
> His earlier works include disaster novels (at the time a requirement
> of all British SF writers), some fantasy, etc. All readable.
>
> If I had to name a favourite novel it would be "Pavane", a favourite
> shorter work, the novelette "Weinachtsabend". Both parallel
> world stories.
>
> Rereading the first section of Pavane, I think I see the influence of
> Bennett's "Clayhanger". Roberts was just the kind of guy to have
> read every word of Bennett's. And also Wyndham.
>
> William Hyde

I second your recommendation of _Pavane_; it's been on my Favorite
bookcase for a long time. I would recommend it to general readers.

The other Roberts novel that is a Favorite is much quirkier (and not as highly
liked). It's _Molly Zero_, which is mostly a typical British dystopia,
but told entirely in the second person!

2nd person seemed to work (heighten impact) for me occasionally and
not other times. I've never been able to figure out why; perhaps that
why _Molly Zero_ remains a Favorite. I'd be curious as to the
emotional impact that it had on other folks when reading the novel.

Chris

In article <e74af5cc-e1ce-45f1-b010-b2b839facad8n@googlegroups.com>,
William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>If I had to name a favourite novel it would be "Pavane", a favourite
>shorter work, the novelette "Weinachtsabend". Both parallel
>world stories.

Name-checked in England Swings SF, btw.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

In article <slrnsf989p.2uc.alan@video.sabir.com>,
Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> wrote:
>On 2021-07-18, William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 9:47:33 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> England Swings SF edited by Judith Merril
>>>
>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/lullabies-in-an-ancient-tongue
>>
>> For those who reflexively hate anything New Wave, I'd like to point
>> out that Keith Roberts' version of NW fiction is eminently readable
>> and coherent. It would be a mistake to avoid his work because of
>> his NW associations.
>>
>> Some on this group may be reassured by the fact that he called
>> himself a conservative (for his time, anyway).
>>
>> He matured into a great stylist, but not the kind that gets that way
>with funny
>> punctuation or sentences without verbs. The kind that uses the right word in
>> the right place at the right time.
>>
>> He didn't spoon-feed the reader, and his novels could be puzzling for
>a while,
>> but explanations were always available. I didn't understand a line in
>Pavane, for
>> example: "What you steal from us, you are welcome to keep" (more or
>less). But the
>> meaning soon became clear.
>>
>> His earlier works include disaster novels (at the time a requirement
>> of all British SF writers), some fantasy, etc. All readable.
>>
>> If I had to name a favourite novel it would be "Pavane", a favourite
>> shorter work, the novelette "Weinachtsabend". Both parallel
>> world stories.
>>
>> Rereading the first section of Pavane, I think I see the influence of
>> Bennett's "Clayhanger". Roberts was just the kind of guy to have
>> read every word of Bennett's. And also Wyndham.
>>
>> William Hyde
>
>I second your recommendation of _Pavane_; it's been on my Favorite
>bookcase for a long time. I would recommend it to general readers.
>

Maybe I was just too young, but I completely bounced off of _Pavane_.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 7:49:38 PM UTC-4, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <slrnsf989...@video.sabir.com>,
> Chris Buckley <al...@sabir.com> wrote:
> >On 2021-07-18, William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 9:47:33 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> >>> England Swings SF edited by Judith Merril
> >>>
> >>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/lullabies-in-an-ancient-tongue
> >>
> >> For those who reflexively hate anything New Wave, I'd like to point
> >> out that Keith Roberts' version of NW fiction is eminently readable
> >> and coherent. It would be a mistake to avoid his work because of
> >> his NW associations.
> >>
> >> Some on this group may be reassured by the fact that he called
> >> himself a conservative (for his time, anyway).
> >>
> >> He matured into a great stylist, but not the kind that gets that way
> >with funny
> >> punctuation or sentences without verbs. The kind that uses the right word in
> >> the right place at the right time.
> >>
> >> He didn't spoon-feed the reader, and his novels could be puzzling for
> >a while,
> >> but explanations were always available. I didn't understand a line in
> >Pavane, for
> >> example: "What you steal from us, you are welcome to keep" (more or
> >less). But the
> >> meaning soon became clear.
> >>
> >> His earlier works include disaster novels (at the time a requirement
> >> of all British SF writers), some fantasy, etc. All readable.
> >>
> >> If I had to name a favourite novel it would be "Pavane", a favourite
> >> shorter work, the novelette "Weinachtsabend". Both parallel
> >> world stories.
> >>
> >> Rereading the first section of Pavane, I think I see the influence of
> >> Bennett's "Clayhanger". Roberts was just the kind of guy to have
> >> read every word of Bennett's. And also Wyndham.
> >>
> >> William Hyde
> >
> >I second your recommendation of _Pavane_; it's been on my Favorite
> >bookcase for a long time. I would recommend it to general readers.
> >
> Maybe I was just too young, but I completely bounced off of _Pavane_.

I also bounced off it when I read half of it at age 16. Next year I read it again
with a very different result.

A large fraction of the books I bounced off of as a teen turned out to be very good. The really crappy books I somehow finished (hello, "Terror From Planet Ionius").

William Hyde

In article <iljt0dF9fh3U1@mid.individual.net>,
Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>In article <slrnsf989p.2uc.alan@video.sabir.com>,
>Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> wrote:
>>On 2021-07-18, William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 9:47:33 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>> England Swings SF edited by Judith Merril
>>>>
>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/lullabies-in-an-ancient-tongue
>>>
>>> For those who reflexively hate anything New Wave, I'd like to point
>>> out that Keith Roberts' version of NW fiction is eminently readable
>>> and coherent. It would be a mistake to avoid his work because of
>>> his NW associations.
>>>
>>> Some on this group may be reassured by the fact that he called
>>> himself a conservative (for his time, anyway).
>>>
>>> He matured into a great stylist, but not the kind that gets that way
>>with funny
>>> punctuation or sentences without verbs. The kind that uses the right word in
>>> the right place at the right time.
>>>
>>> He didn't spoon-feed the reader, and his novels could be puzzling for
>>a while,
>>> but explanations were always available. I didn't understand a line in
>>Pavane, for
>>> example: "What you steal from us, you are welcome to keep" (more or
>>less). But the
>>> meaning soon became clear.
>>>
>>> His earlier works include disaster novels (at the time a requirement
>>> of all British SF writers), some fantasy, etc. All readable.
>>>
>>> If I had to name a favourite novel it would be "Pavane", a favourite
>>> shorter work, the novelette "Weinachtsabend". Both parallel
>>> world stories.
>>>
>>> Rereading the first section of Pavane, I think I see the influence of
>>> Bennett's "Clayhanger". Roberts was just the kind of guy to have
>>> read every word of Bennett's. And also Wyndham.
>>>
>>> William Hyde
>>
>>I second your recommendation of _Pavane_; it's been on my Favorite
>>bookcase for a long time. I would recommend it to general readers.

I know I read that, back in the day, but I can't remember

One

Blasted

Thing

about it.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

On 19/07/21 9:46 am, Chris Buckley wrote:
> On 2021-07-18, William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 9:47:33 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> England Swings SF edited by Judith Merril
>>>
>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/lullabies-in-an-ancient-tongue
>>
>> For those who reflexively hate anything New Wave, I'd like to point
>> out that Keith Roberts' version of NW fiction is eminently readable
>> and coherent. It would be a mistake to avoid his work because of
>> his NW associations.
>>
>> Some on this group may be reassured by the fact that he called
>> himself a conservative (for his time, anyway).
>>
>> He matured into a great stylist, but not the kind that gets that way with funny
>> punctuation or sentences without verbs. The kind that uses the right word in
>> the right place at the right time.
>>
>> He didn't spoon-feed the reader, and his novels could be puzzling for a while,
>> but explanations were always available. I didn't understand a line in Pavane, for
>> example: "What you steal from us, you are welcome to keep" (more or less). But the
>> meaning soon became clear.
>>
>> His earlier works include disaster novels (at the time a requirement
>> of all British SF writers), some fantasy, etc. All readable.
>>
>> If I had to name a favourite novel it would be "Pavane", a favourite
>> shorter work, the novelette "Weinachtsabend". Both parallel
>> world stories.
>>
>> Rereading the first section of Pavane, I think I see the influence of
>> Bennett's "Clayhanger". Roberts was just the kind of guy to have
>> read every word of Bennett's. And also Wyndham.
>>
>> William Hyde
>
> I second your recommendation of _Pavane_; it's been on my Favorite
> bookcase for a long time. I would recommend it to general readers.

Me too. It is a brilliant read. I can't stand alternate histories and do
not read them though read Pavane in 2014 and coincidentally shifted it
to my Kindle last week for a re-read.

> The other Roberts novel that is a Favorite is much quirkier (and not as highly
> liked). It's _Molly Zero_, which is mostly a typical British dystopia,
> but told entirely in the second person!
>
> 2nd person seemed to work (heighten impact) for me occasionally and
> not other times. I've never been able to figure out why; perhaps that
> why _Molly Zero_ remains a Favorite. I'd be curious as to the
> emotional impact that it had on other folks when reading the novel.

I now have a copy and will report back.

James Nicoll wrote:
> England Swings SF edited by Judith Merril
>
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/lullabies-in-an-ancient-tongue

I don't often write to claim 0-fer the stories, but I was afraid I'd be 0-fer the authors!
There seems to be a short window of opportunity to have read a lot of these authors.
Luckily, there's Aldiss and Moorcock. Two others I encountered in my Magazines of Fantasy and Science Fiction in the 1980s: Keith Roberts with a pair of stories, "The Lordly Ones" and "The Comfort Station." Thomas M. Disch with occasional book reviews and stories, by which I mainly mean "The Brave Little Toaster."

--
-Jack

On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 16:11:39 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
Nicoll) wrote:

>In article <flj8fg1ad5a9qmbe8agorhu4b3tq7fq2f6@4ax.com>,
>Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 07:39:33 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>><jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 7:47:33 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>> England Swings SF edited by Judith Merril
>>>
>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/lullabies-in-an-ancient-tongue
>>>
>>>Despite being "New Wave", these stories sound interesting.
>>
>>Wasn't "New Wave" something that came out in the mid-70s or so?
>>
>It began in the 1960s. This might be seen as the essential English book
>documenting it, while Dangerous Visions isn't a bad stab at a US survey,
>although mid-volume Orbits probably offer a better assortment of stories.
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Wave_science_fiction

I remember finding the first /Dangerous Visions/ (IIRC, there were
more) as being very ... ordinary.

*Yawn* Story with sex
*Yawn* Story ridiculing God

The phrase "dime a dozen" came to mind, particularly with the first
category.

I mean, really, this stuff was supposed to be new and daring? Or at
least worth reading?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 17:48:50 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:

>In article <e4914868-2406-4bf4-b2a6-84cea745642fn@googlegroups.com>,
>Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> wrote:
>>On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 11:55:37 AM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 07:39:33 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>> >On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 7:47:33 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> >> England Swings SF edited by Judith Merril
>>> >
>>> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/lullabies-in-an-ancient-tongue
>>> >
>>> >Despite being "New Wave", these stories sound interesting.
>>> Wasn't "New Wave" something that came out in the mid-70s or so?
>>>
>>> Or is this a /new/ "New Wave"? Or have their been several, with this
>>> being "New Wave 5" or whatever?
>>>
>>> I really haven't been keeping up with this stuff.
>>
>>Mid-late 1960s -- see http://www.sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/new_wave
>>for details, including:
>>
>>> By the 1970s there no longer seemed very much point to the term,
>>> although newly prominent figures like Gardner Dozois, Barry N Malzberg,
>>> Joanna Russ, James Tiptree Jr and Gene Wolfe clearly wrote in styles
>>> or modes that would have been called New Wave only a year or so earlier.
>
>Because by then it wasn't new.

Or the wave had broken.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 13:48:24 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 9:55:37 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 07:39:33 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>> >On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 7:47:33 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
>> >> England Swings SF edited by Judith Merril
>
>> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/lullabies-in-an-ancient-tongue
>
>> >Despite being "New Wave", these stories sound interesting.
>
>> Wasn't "New Wave" something that came out in the mid-70s or so?
>
>> Or is this a /new/ "New Wave"? Or have their been several, with this
>> being "New Wave 5" or whatever?
>
>Since Judith Merril's England Swings SF collection is a book from _1968_,
>I fail to see how it must inevitably represent a "New Wave" that is newer
>than the one you remember from around the mid-70's.

Ah.

So that is the root of my confusion -- I thought the book was /new/
when, in fact, it is old, famous, and unknown to me.

Oh, well.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

In article <4u9bfg9hgv0llgvkg58k0jprmu0v41saoc@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 13:48:24 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
><jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 9:55:37 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 07:39:33 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>> >On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 7:47:33 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> >> England Swings SF edited by Judith Merril
>>
>>> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/lullabies-in-an-ancient-tongue
>>
>>> >Despite being "New Wave", these stories sound interesting.
>>
>>> Wasn't "New Wave" something that came out in the mid-70s or so?
>>
>>> Or is this a /new/ "New Wave"? Or have their been several, with this
>>> being "New Wave 5" or whatever?
>>
>>Since Judith Merril's England Swings SF collection is a book from _1968_,
>>I fail to see how it must inevitably represent a "New Wave" that is newer
>>than the one you remember from around the mid-70's.
>
>Ah.
>
>So that is the root of my confusion -- I thought the book was /new/
>when, in fact, it is old, famous, and unknown to me.
>
>Oh, well.

The very first sentence of that review did say "Judith Merril's 1968
England Swings SF." Also, Merril has been dead for almost a quarter
century and death often severely impacts productivity. Also, and this
is a bit of insider baseball, Because My Tears Are Delicious to You
reviews are reviews of books I read as a teenager, which is to say
not recent books.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Monday, 19 July 2021 at 17:45:54 UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <4u9bfg9hgv0llgvkg...@4ax.com>,
> Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 13:48:24 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> ><jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >
> >>On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 9:55:37 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 07:39:33 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> >>> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> >On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 7:47:33 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
> >>> >> England Swings SF edited by Judith Merril
> >>
> >>> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/lullabies-in-an-ancient-tongue
> >>
> >>> >Despite being "New Wave", these stories sound interesting.
> >>
> >>> Wasn't "New Wave" something that came out in the mid-70s or so?
> >>
> >>> Or is this a /new/ "New Wave"? Or have their been several, with this
> >>> being "New Wave 5" or whatever?
> >>
> >>Since Judith Merril's England Swings SF collection is a book from _1968_,
> >>I fail to see how it must inevitably represent a "New Wave" that is newer
> >>than the one you remember from around the mid-70's.
> >
> >Ah.
> >
> >So that is the root of my confusion -- I thought the book was /new/
> >when, in fact, it is old, famous, and unknown to me.
> >
> >Oh, well.
> The very first sentence of that review did say "Judith Merril's 1968
> England Swings SF." Also, Merril has been dead for almost a quarter
> century and death often severely impacts productivity. Also, and this
> is a bit of insider baseball, Because My Tears Are Delicious to You
> reviews are reviews of books I read as a teenager, which is to say
> not recent books.

And that it was expensive; US (?) $1.25.

On Monday, 19 July 2021 at 17:45:54 UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <4u9bfg9hgv0llgvkg...@4ax.com>,
> Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 13:48:24 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> ><jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >
> >>On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 9:55:37 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 07:39:33 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> >>> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> >On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 7:47:33 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
> >>> >> England Swings SF edited by Judith Merril
> >>
> >>> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/lullabies-in-an-ancient-tongue
> >>
> >>> >Despite being "New Wave", these stories sound interesting.
> >>
> >>> Wasn't "New Wave" something that came out in the mid-70s or so?
> >>
> >>> Or is this a /new/ "New Wave"? Or have their been several, with this
> >>> being "New Wave 5" or whatever?
> >>
> >>Since Judith Merril's England Swings SF collection is a book from _1968_,
> >>I fail to see how it must inevitably represent a "New Wave" that is newer
> >>than the one you remember from around the mid-70's.
> >
> >Ah.
> >
> >So that is the root of my confusion -- I thought the book was /new/
> >when, in fact, it is old, famous, and unknown to me.
> >
> >Oh, well.
> The very first sentence of that review did say "Judith Merril's 1968
> England Swings SF." Also, Merril has been dead for almost a quarter
> century and death often severely impacts productivity. Also, and this
> is a bit of insider baseball, Because My Tears Are Delicious to You
> reviews are reviews of books I read as a teenager, which is to say
> not recent books.

....oh: and <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_Swings>
is a country song released in 1965.

On Monday, July 19, 2021 at 12:24:18 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 16:11:39 -0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
> Nicoll) wrote:
>
> >In article <flj8fg1ad5a9qmbe8...@4ax.com>,
> >Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >>On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 07:39:33 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> >><jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 7:47:33 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
> >>>> England Swings SF edited by Judith Merril
> >>>
> >>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/lullabies-in-an-ancient-tongue
> >>>
> >>>Despite being "New Wave", these stories sound interesting.
> >>
> >>Wasn't "New Wave" something that came out in the mid-70s or so?
> >>
> >It began in the 1960s. This might be seen as the essential English book
> >documenting it, while Dangerous Visions isn't a bad stab at a US survey,
> >although mid-volume Orbits probably offer a better assortment of stories.
> >
> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Wave_science_fiction
> I remember finding the first /Dangerous Visions/ (IIRC, there were
> more) as being very ... ordinary.
>
> *Yawn* Story with sex
> *Yawn* Story ridiculing God
>
> The phrase "dime a dozen" came to mind, particularly with the first
> category.
>
> I mean, really, this stuff was supposed to be new and daring?

In the context of US science fiction magazines, yes. Some of these
stories might have been publishable in F&SF or Galaxy, but not all.
None in Analog. A story with a gay protagonist? Not even if it's
by Poul Anderson.

There was also the Ballard case, where some intermediate sent Ballard's
first and more radical entry back, to Ellison's later distress. Ballard
responded with a much less "dangerous" story.

The collection was seen as less daring in the UK. Perhaps "New Worlds" at
the time was more experimental than F&*SF. Edmund Cooper, in particular,
shared your view.

Or at
> least worth reading?

A matter of taste.

William Hyde

On Monday, July 19, 2021 at 12:20:18 PM UTC-6, Robert Carnegie wrote:

> ...oh: and <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_Swings>
> is a country song released in 1965.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I7yAC1Pz6Y

This is by Roger Miller, who also had a hit with
"King of the Road":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrhAC0dFis0

I don't think of those songs as belonging to the genre of
country music - maybe they do, but at least they had some
crossover success, and they were also played on pop
music stations, just as were some of Johnny Cash's hits.

Usually, country music stays on country music stations!

John Savard

On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 2:22:05 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>
> This is by Roger Miller, who also had a hit with
> "King of the Road":
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrhAC0dFis0
>
> I don't think of those songs as belonging to the genre of
> country music - maybe they do, but at least they had some
> crossover success, and they were also played on pop
> music stations, just as were some of Johnny Cash's hits.

Prepare to blow your mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHevN7NPo0A

Is pop music a genre? If one writes a pop song and it doesn't make the charts, does it exist?

> Usually, country music stays on country music stations!

And the country music station with the largest audience is in New York City.
What do we make of that?

--
-Jack