On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 8:12:01 AM UTC-6, jack....@gmail.com wrote:

> Prepare to blow your mind:

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHevN7NPo0A

Technically speaking, that song does certainly share many musical
characteristics with country and western music.

Given the existence of Charlie Pride, however,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rouSFhnQapE

despite recent news stories about the struggle of one black
musician to have his works accepted as country music, it
is not... impossible... I suppose, for a black musician to
perform works that are recognized and acknowledged as
country music. It's just an uphill battle.

Google searches have, however, failed to allow me to find
those news articles again. Their results hint that their
subject might be one Jimmie Allen, but I can't be sure.

John Savard

On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 10:12:01 AM UTC-4, jack....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 2:22:05 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> >
> > This is by Roger Miller, who also had a hit with
> > "King of the Road":
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrhAC0dFis0
> >
> > I don't think of those songs as belonging to the genre of
> > country music - maybe they do, but at least they had some
> > crossover success, and they were also played on pop
> > music stations, just as were some of Johnny Cash's hits.
> Prepare to blow your mind:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHevN7NPo0A
>
>
> Is pop music a genre? If one writes a pop song and it doesn't make the charts, does it exist?

If it doesn't chart, it is not popular, and hence not 'pop' music. :-)

(I'll let myself out....)

pt

On Mon, 19 Jul 2021 14:02:07 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
<wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, July 19, 2021 at 12:24:18 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 16:11:39 -0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
>> Nicoll) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <flj8fg1ad5a9qmbe8...@4ax.com>,
>> >Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> >>On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 07:39:33 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>> >><jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 7:47:33 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
>> >>>> England Swings SF edited by Judith Merril
>> >>>
>> >>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/lullabies-in-an-ancient-tongue
>> >>>
>> >>>Despite being "New Wave", these stories sound interesting.
>> >>
>> >>Wasn't "New Wave" something that came out in the mid-70s or so?
>> >>
>> >It began in the 1960s. This might be seen as the essential English book
>> >documenting it, while Dangerous Visions isn't a bad stab at a US survey,
>> >although mid-volume Orbits probably offer a better assortment of stories.
>> >
>> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Wave_science_fiction
>> I remember finding the first /Dangerous Visions/ (IIRC, there were
>> more) as being very ... ordinary.
>>
>> *Yawn* Story with sex
>> *Yawn* Story ridiculing God
>>
>> The phrase "dime a dozen" came to mind, particularly with the first
>> category.
>>
>> I mean, really, this stuff was supposed to be new and daring?
>
>In the context of US science fiction magazines, yes. Some of these
>stories might have been publishable in F&SF or Galaxy, but not all.
>None in Analog. A story with a gay protagonist? Not even if it's
>by Poul Anderson.

I was reading a lot of SF magazines. But also a lot of books. Hard to
say, after all these years, which had more influence on my reaction.

>There was also the Ballard case, where some intermediate sent Ballard's
>first and more radical entry back, to Ellison's later distress. Ballard
>responded with a much less "dangerous" story.
>
>The collection was seen as less daring in the UK. Perhaps "New Worlds" at
>the time was more experimental than F&*SF. Edmund Cooper, in particular,
>shared your view.
>
> Or at
>> least worth reading?
>
>A matter of taste.

Indeed.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Mon, 19 Jul 2021 23:22:03 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Monday, July 19, 2021 at 12:20:18 PM UTC-6, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>
>> ...oh: and <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_Swings>
>> is a country song released in 1965.
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I7yAC1Pz6Y
>
>This is by Roger Miller, who also had a hit with
>"King of the Road":
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrhAC0dFis0
>
>I don't think of those songs as belonging to the genre of
>country music - maybe they do, but at least they had some
>crossover success, and they were also played on pop
>music stations, just as were some of Johnny Cash's hits.
>
>Usually, country music stays on country music stations!

Safely confined, and so easy to ignore.

(Occasionally, I see a review of a movie coming out on DVD/BD that is
so ... unimpressive ... that I say the same thing about it as well.)

(True story: one of my Army buddies had a job at a radio station, and,
one Christmas season, I was appalled to find myself listening to "Oh
Little Town of Bethlehem" -- sung as a dirge, that is, in
Country-Western style.)

(OTOH, the second disc of my current DVD of /The Rocky Horror Picture
Show/ has the composer singing one of the songs in Country-Western
style, accompanying himself on the guitar. This struck me as
ludicrous, not appalling.)
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 07:31:22 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 8:12:01 AM UTC-6, jack....@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Prepare to blow your mind:
>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHevN7NPo0A
>
>Technically speaking, that song does certainly share many musical
>characteristics with country and western music.
>
>Given the existence of Charlie Pride, however,
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rouSFhnQapE
>
>despite recent news stories about the struggle of one black
>musician to have his works accepted as country music, it
>is not... impossible... I suppose, for a black musician to
>perform works that are recognized and acknowledged as
>country music. It's just an uphill battle.
>
>Google searches have, however, failed to allow me to find
>those news articles again. Their results hint that their
>subject might be one Jimmie Allen, but I can't be sure.

IIRC, there was at least one very famous and popular Country-Western
star whose eventual identification as an African-American caused quite
a ruckus.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

In article <66701a39-3b4c-4dbc-bded-7ce185e52c6bn@googlegroups.com>,
Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 2:22:05 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>>
>> This is by Roger Miller, who also had a hit with
>> "King of the Road":
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrhAC0dFis0
>>
>> I don't think of those songs as belonging to the genre of
>> country music - maybe they do, but at least they had some
>> crossover success, and they were also played on pop
>> music stations, just as were some of Johnny Cash's hits.
>
>Prepare to blow your mind:
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHevN7NPo0A
>
>
>Is pop music a genre? If one writes a pop song and it doesn't make the
>charts, does it exist?
>
>> Usually, country music stays on country music stations!
>
>And the country music station with the largest audience is in New York City.
>What do we make of that?
>

I would suspect the 'x' station where 'x' is *anything* is probably in NYC.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

In article <d7334ce3-d5ba-4e53-8aed-866d74530793n@googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 8:12:01 AM UTC-6, jack....@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Prepare to blow your mind:
>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHevN7NPo0A
>
>Technically speaking, that song does certainly share many musical
>characteristics with country and western music.
>
>Given the existence of Charlie Pride, however,
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rouSFhnQapE
>
>despite recent news stories about the struggle of one black
>musician to have his works accepted as country music, it
>is not... impossible... I suppose, for a black musician to
>perform works that are recognized and acknowledged as
>country music. It's just an uphill battle.
>

Ray Charles kind of blew that one away in 1962

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Sounds_in_Country_and_Western_Music
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 9:34:00 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:

> IIRC, there was at least one very famous and popular Country-Western
> star whose eventual identification as an African-American caused quite
> a ruckus.

I don't recall that myself, but I recently found out on the Internet about
the ruckus when it was noticed that Johnny Cash's first wife was
apparently African-American.

John Savard

On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 2:22:28 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 9:34:00 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>
> > IIRC, there was at least one very famous and popular Country-Western
> > star whose eventual identification as an African-American caused quite
> > a ruckus.
> I don't recall that myself, but I recently found out on the Internet about
> the ruckus when it was noticed that Johnny Cash's first wife was
> apparently African-American.
>
>

Well, by the idiotic "one-drop" rule of the Bad Old Days, she was.
Vivian Liberto Cash was of Sicilian/Italian, German and Irish
extraction. But:

[quote]

In 2021, genealogist Henry Louis Gates from the show Finding Your Roots
discovered that one of her maternal great-great-grandmothers, Sarah A.
Shields, was a mixed-race woman born into slavery, who was freed along
with her eight siblings by their white father.

[/quote] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivian_Cash

I don't know if the Cashes could have been arrested for "miscegenation,"
but they were married for a dozen years before the Loving v Virginia
ruling struck such "laws" down.

Country music hasn't been _completely_ white, though black
performers were few. The Opry had DeFord Bailey from early days.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/entertainment/music/country-mile/2019/09/12/deford-bailey-country-musician-broke-barriers-african-american-artists/2264613001/

Huddie (Lead Belly) Ledbetter would sing country songs, just as
Jimmie "The Singing Braleman" Rodgers was a pioneer in both
country and blues.

As for NYC's country station, there really wasn't one until 1050
AM WHN adopted the format in 1973. Before that, if you wanted
some George Jones and Merle Haggard you had to try to pull in
970 AM WJRZ out of Newark, NJ. Living on the South Shore
of Long Island, I could do that, barely, as the signal came over
the water from Hackensack without intervening structures. It faded
like crazy, though. I suspect the ground wave wasn't too powerful.
They broadcast Mets games before those moved to WHN. Our
hometown AM daytimer simulcast the Amazin's on their FM signal,
so that wasn't a problem. They also had a country show after
10 pm and on Sunday morning. I could listen to those, if I stayed
up late enough or go up early enough. We were far enough East
that farmers and fishermen with a taste for country could tune in.

When WYNY went Spanish-language in the early 2000s the Big Apple
was without a country station for a decade.

--
Kevin R

On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 01:59:43 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com>
wrote:

>On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 2:22:28 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 9:34:00 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>
>> > IIRC, there was at least one very famous and popular Country-Western
>> > star whose eventual identification as an African-American caused quite
>> > a ruckus.
>> I don't recall that myself, but I recently found out on the Internet about
>> the ruckus when it was noticed that Johnny Cash's first wife was
>> apparently African-American.
>
>Well, by the idiotic "one-drop" rule of the Bad Old Days, she was.
>Vivian Liberto Cash was of Sicilian/Italian, German and Irish
>extraction. But:
>
>[quote]
>
> In 2021, genealogist Henry Louis Gates from the show Finding Your Roots
>discovered that one of her maternal great-great-grandmothers, Sarah A.
>Shields, was a mixed-race woman born into slavery, who was freed along
>with her eight siblings by their white father.
>
>[/quote] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivian_Cash
>
>I don't know if the Cashes could have been arrested for "miscegenation,"
>but they were married for a dozen years before the Loving v Virginia
>ruling struck such "laws" down.

Hell, by that definition I guess I'm black -- one of my
great-great-great grandfathers was an escaped slave who, when asked
about his brownish complexion, claimed to be Ojibwa.

Many states, though, didn't say "one drop." Less than one-eighth and
you were white.

--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Tom Derringer & the Steam-Powered Saurians.

On 7/21/2021 12:58 PM, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 01:59:43 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 2:22:28 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 9:34:00 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>
>>>> IIRC, there was at least one very famous and popular Country-Western
>>>> star whose eventual identification as an African-American caused quite
>>>> a ruckus.
>>> I don't recall that myself, but I recently found out on the Internet about
>>> the ruckus when it was noticed that Johnny Cash's first wife was
>>> apparently African-American.
>>
>> Well, by the idiotic "one-drop" rule of the Bad Old Days, she was.
>> Vivian Liberto Cash was of Sicilian/Italian, German and Irish
>> extraction. But:
>>
>> [quote]
>>
>> In 2021, genealogist Henry Louis Gates from the show Finding Your Roots
>> discovered that one of her maternal great-great-grandmothers, Sarah A.
>> Shields, was a mixed-race woman born into slavery, who was freed along
>> with her eight siblings by their white father.
>>
>> [/quote] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivian_Cash
>>
>> I don't know if the Cashes could have been arrested for "miscegenation,"
>> but they were married for a dozen years before the Loving v Virginia
>> ruling struck such "laws" down.
>
> Hell, by that definition I guess I'm black -- one of my
> great-great-great grandfathers was an escaped slave who, when asked
> about his brownish complexion, claimed to be Ojibwa.
>
> Many states, though, didn't say "one drop." Less than one-eighth and
> you were white.
>
Which leads to the mental picture of someone's skin tone changing as
they stepped across a state line....

--
Troll, troll, troll your post gently down the thread
Angrily, angrily, angrily, the net's a nut's scream.

On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 4:50:28 PM UTC-4, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 7/21/2021 12:58 PM, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> > On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 01:59:43 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 2:22:28 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 9:34:00 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> IIRC, there was at least one very famous and popular Country-Western
> >>>> star whose eventual identification as an African-American caused quite
> >>>> a ruckus.
> >>> I don't recall that myself, but I recently found out on the Internet about
> >>> the ruckus when it was noticed that Johnny Cash's first wife was
> >>> apparently African-American.
> >>
> >> Well, by the idiotic "one-drop" rule of the Bad Old Days, she was.
> >> Vivian Liberto Cash was of Sicilian/Italian, German and Irish
> >> extraction. But:
> >>
> >> [quote]
> >>
> >> In 2021, genealogist Henry Louis Gates from the show Finding Your Roots
> >> discovered that one of her maternal great-great-grandmothers, Sarah A.
> >> Shields, was a mixed-race woman born into slavery, who was freed along
> >> with her eight siblings by their white father.
> >>
> >> [/quote] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivian_Cash
> >>
> >> I don't know if the Cashes could have been arrested for "miscegenation,"
> >> but they were married for a dozen years before the Loving v Virginia
> >> ruling struck such "laws" down.
> >
> > Hell, by that definition I guess I'm black -- one of my
> > great-great-great grandfathers was an escaped slave who, when asked
> > about his brownish complexion, claimed to be Ojibwa.
> >
> > Many states, though, didn't say "one drop." Less than one-eighth and
> > you were white.
> >
> Which leads to the mental picture of someone's skin tone changing as
> they stepped across a state line....

There were many, many people who moved to a new state, and proceeded to 'pass',
often for the rest of their lives.

Pt

On 7/21/2021 4:08 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 4:50:28 PM UTC-4, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 7/21/2021 12:58 PM, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>>> On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 01:59:43 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 2:22:28 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 9:34:00 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> IIRC, there was at least one very famous and popular Country-Western
>>>>>> star whose eventual identification as an African-American caused quite
>>>>>> a ruckus.
>>>>> I don't recall that myself, but I recently found out on the Internet about
>>>>> the ruckus when it was noticed that Johnny Cash's first wife was
>>>>> apparently African-American.
>>>>
>>>> Well, by the idiotic "one-drop" rule of the Bad Old Days, she was.
>>>> Vivian Liberto Cash was of Sicilian/Italian, German and Irish
>>>> extraction. But:
>>>>
>>>> [quote]
>>>>
>>>> In 2021, genealogist Henry Louis Gates from the show Finding Your Roots
>>>> discovered that one of her maternal great-great-grandmothers, Sarah A.
>>>> Shields, was a mixed-race woman born into slavery, who was freed along
>>>> with her eight siblings by their white father.
>>>>
>>>> [/quote] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivian_Cash
>>>>
>>>> I don't know if the Cashes could have been arrested for "miscegenation,"
>>>> but they were married for a dozen years before the Loving v Virginia
>>>> ruling struck such "laws" down.
>>>
>>> Hell, by that definition I guess I'm black -- one of my
>>> great-great-great grandfathers was an escaped slave who, when asked
>>> about his brownish complexion, claimed to be Ojibwa.
>>>
>>> Many states, though, didn't say "one drop." Less than one-eighth and
>>> you were white.
>>>
>> Which leads to the mental picture of someone's skin tone changing as
>> they stepped across a state line....
>
> There were many, many people who moved to a new state, and proceeded to 'pass',
> often for the rest of their lives.
>
I know about the "Escaped Slave" posters with descriptions like "Blond
hair, blue eyes, will try to pass themselves off as White".

--
Troll, troll, troll your post gently down the thread
Angrily, angrily, angrily, the net's a nut's scream.

On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 2:59:46 AM UTC-6, Kevrob wrote:

> I don't know if the Cashes could have been arrested for "miscegenation,"
> but they were married for a dozen years before the Loving v Virginia
> ruling struck such "laws" down.

She also had a certificate that showed she was white from one of those
Southern states where black people were subject to Jim Crow laws, I
learned when I read up on this.

But from photographs of her, though, it was apparent that she had some
black ancestry, so it's unclear to me how she could possibly have managed
to "pass" had she intended to do so.

John Savard

On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 1:58:29 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:

> Hell, by that definition I guess I'm black -- one of my
> great-great-great grandfathers was an escaped slave who, when asked
> about his brownish complexion, claimed to be Ojibwa.

Indeed, a lot of people one wouldn't guess were black would be
by that definition...

Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, it was recently learned, was apparently
about 1/32nd part black, as one of her ancestors, presumably half-black,
was the first black person to graduate from medical school, at least in
some part of the country.

John Savard

On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 10:06:15 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

> Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, it was recently learned, was apparently
> about 1/32nd part black, as one of her ancestors, presumably half-black,
> was the first black person to graduate from medical school, at least in
> some part of the country.

It is John van Salee de Grasse that I'm thinking of, but the different
article I found this time gives information which indicates he was lilkely
considerably less than half-black. Given that, in some states, the
one-drop rule was formalized at one sixty-fourth part, presumably on
the grounds that there had to be some limit, she would then be white by
that definition too, not just the one-eighth one.

John Savard

On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 21:03:27 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 2:59:46 AM UTC-6, Kevrob wrote:
>
>> I don't know if the Cashes could have been arrested for "miscegenation,"
>> but they were married for a dozen years before the Loving v Virginia
>> ruling struck such "laws" down.
>
>She also had a certificate that showed she was white from one of those
>Southern states where black people were subject to Jim Crow laws, I
>learned when I read up on this.
>
>But from photographs of her, though, it was apparent that she had some
>black ancestry, so it's unclear to me how she could possibly have managed
>to "pass" had she intended to do so.

OK, put up a photo with a diagram of the characteristics which lead
you to believe that it is apparent.

Her "black ancestry" was a "mixed race" great great grandparent.

She had more Sicilian ancestry than black. In Italy that is
apparently at least among some social classes considered to be black.
Mariangela Melato refers to Giancarlo Giannini in "Swept Away" by a
word that is translated as the n-word. So perhaps your confusion is
understandable.

On Thursday, July 22, 2021 at 12:25:13 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

> OK, put up a photo with a diagram of the characteristics which lead
> you to believe that it is apparent.

There are several photographs of her in this news article:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9588299/Johnny-Cashs-wife-black-great-grandmother-freed-slave.html

You can form your own opinion.

ObSF: In the novel "White Pills", after a pill is developed to
turn people's skin white, a few black people were enabled to
pass who didn't have obvious traits in their physiognomy
that made them look black.

A racist group circulated a complicated diagram purporting
to help people identify black people; simplified versions
involved drawing an X based on a person's nose and seeing
if it hit the pupils of their eyes.

John Savard

On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 04:05:04 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Thursday, July 22, 2021 at 12:25:13 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> OK, put up a photo with a diagram of the characteristics which lead
>> you to believe that it is apparent.
>
>There are several photographs of her in this news article:
>
>https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9588299/Johnny-Cashs-wife-black-great-grandmother-freed-slave.html
>
>You can form your own opinion.
>
>ObSF: In the novel "White Pills", after a pill is developed to
>turn people's skin white, a few black people were enabled to
>pass who didn't have obvious traits in their physiognomy
>that made them look black.
>
>A racist group circulated a complicated diagram purporting
>to help people identify black people; simplified versions
>involved drawing an X based on a person's nose and seeing
>if it hit the pupils of their eyes.

I have long since formed my own opinion. She in fact looks very much
like another Italian woman of whom I was once enamored.

I am asking you to defend your assertion.

On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 12:58:22 -0700, Lawrence Watt-Evans
<misenchantedpress@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 01:59:43 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 2:22:28 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 9:34:00 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>
>>> > IIRC, there was at least one very famous and popular Country-Western
>>> > star whose eventual identification as an African-American caused quite
>>> > a ruckus.
>>> I don't recall that myself, but I recently found out on the Internet about
>>> the ruckus when it was noticed that Johnny Cash's first wife was
>>> apparently African-American.
>>
>>Well, by the idiotic "one-drop" rule of the Bad Old Days, she was.
>>Vivian Liberto Cash was of Sicilian/Italian, German and Irish
>>extraction. But:
>>
>>[quote]
>>
>> In 2021, genealogist Henry Louis Gates from the show Finding Your Roots
>>discovered that one of her maternal great-great-grandmothers, Sarah A.
>>Shields, was a mixed-race woman born into slavery, who was freed along
>>with her eight siblings by their white father.
>>
>>[/quote] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivian_Cash
>>
>>I don't know if the Cashes could have been arrested for "miscegenation,"
>>but they were married for a dozen years before the Loving v Virginia
>>ruling struck such "laws" down.
>
>Hell, by that definition I guess I'm black -- one of my
>great-great-great grandfathers was an escaped slave who, when asked
>about his brownish complexion, claimed to be Ojibwa.
>
>Many states, though, didn't say "one drop." Less than one-eighth and
>you were white.

There are, it appears, also cultures in which the "one drop" rule is
interpreted to mean that one drop of /White/ blood makes you White.

No matter what your skin color might imply.

The Nazis gave up at 1/4 (for Jew/Aryan), IIRC.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 13:50:26 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 7/21/2021 12:58 PM, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 01:59:43 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 2:22:28 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 9:34:00 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> IIRC, there was at least one very famous and popular Country-Western
>>>>> star whose eventual identification as an African-American caused quite
>>>>> a ruckus.
>>>> I don't recall that myself, but I recently found out on the Internet about
>>>> the ruckus when it was noticed that Johnny Cash's first wife was
>>>> apparently African-American.
>>>
>>> Well, by the idiotic "one-drop" rule of the Bad Old Days, she was.
>>> Vivian Liberto Cash was of Sicilian/Italian, German and Irish
>>> extraction. But:
>>>
>>> [quote]
>>>
>>> In 2021, genealogist Henry Louis Gates from the show Finding Your Roots
>>> discovered that one of her maternal great-great-grandmothers, Sarah A.
>>> Shields, was a mixed-race woman born into slavery, who was freed along
>>> with her eight siblings by their white father.
>>>
>>> [/quote] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivian_Cash
>>>
>>> I don't know if the Cashes could have been arrested for "miscegenation,"
>>> but they were married for a dozen years before the Loving v Virginia
>>> ruling struck such "laws" down.
>>
>> Hell, by that definition I guess I'm black -- one of my
>> great-great-great grandfathers was an escaped slave who, when asked
>> about his brownish complexion, claimed to be Ojibwa.
>>
>> Many states, though, didn't say "one drop." Less than one-eighth and
>> you were white.
>>
>Which leads to the mental picture of someone's skin tone changing as
>they stepped across a state line....

Which reveals why the concept of "race" is useless: it is an arbitrary
social construct, subject to change without notice.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 16:08:23 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 4:50:28 PM UTC-4, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 7/21/2021 12:58 PM, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>> > On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 01:59:43 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 2:22:28 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>> >>> On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 9:34:00 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> IIRC, there was at least one very famous and popular Country-Western
>> >>>> star whose eventual identification as an African-American caused quite
>> >>>> a ruckus.
>> >>> I don't recall that myself, but I recently found out on the Internet about
>> >>> the ruckus when it was noticed that Johnny Cash's first wife was
>> >>> apparently African-American.
>> >>
>> >> Well, by the idiotic "one-drop" rule of the Bad Old Days, she was.
>> >> Vivian Liberto Cash was of Sicilian/Italian, German and Irish
>> >> extraction. But:
>> >>
>> >> [quote]
>> >>
>> >> In 2021, genealogist Henry Louis Gates from the show Finding Your Roots
>> >> discovered that one of her maternal great-great-grandmothers, Sarah A.
>> >> Shields, was a mixed-race woman born into slavery, who was freed along
>> >> with her eight siblings by their white father.
>> >>
>> >> [/quote] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivian_Cash
>> >>
>> >> I don't know if the Cashes could have been arrested for "miscegenation,"
>> >> but they were married for a dozen years before the Loving v Virginia
>> >> ruling struck such "laws" down.
>> >
>> > Hell, by that definition I guess I'm black -- one of my
>> > great-great-great grandfathers was an escaped slave who, when asked
>> > about his brownish complexion, claimed to be Ojibwa.
>> >
>> > Many states, though, didn't say "one drop." Less than one-eighth and
>> > you were white.
>> >
>> Which leads to the mental picture of someone's skin tone changing as
>> they stepped across a state line....
>
>There were many, many people who moved to a new state, and proceeded to 'pass',
>often for the rest of their lives.

Not to dispute your point (there were many people who moved to a new
state where their reputation for, say, embezzlement was unknown who
proceded to build a new and respectible life as well), I would just
point out that, if, in the new State, they were, by legal definition,
now "White", then they weren't passing.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 04:05:04 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Thursday, July 22, 2021 at 12:25:13 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> OK, put up a photo with a diagram of the characteristics which lead
>> you to believe that it is apparent.
>
>There are several photographs of her in this news article:
>
>https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9588299/Johnny-Cashs-wife-black-great-grandmother-freed-slave.html
>
>You can form your own opinion.
>
>ObSF: In the novel "White Pills", after a pill is developed to
>turn people's skin white, a few black people were enabled to
>pass who didn't have obvious traits in their physiognomy
>that made them look black.
>
>A racist group circulated a complicated diagram purporting
>to help people identify black people; simplified versions
>involved drawing an X based on a person's nose and seeing
>if it hit the pupils of their eyes.

What an amazing font of racial stereotypes you are.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

In article <uf3jfgph545rnk7kr999ekscj57rjf32h5@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 04:05:04 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
><jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Thursday, July 22, 2021 at 12:25:13 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> OK, put up a photo with a diagram of the characteristics which lead
>>> you to believe that it is apparent.
>>
>>There are several photographs of her in this news article:
>>
>>https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9588299/Johnny-Cashs-wife-black-great-grandmother-freed-slave.html
>>
>>You can form your own opinion.
>>
>>ObSF: In the novel "White Pills", after a pill is developed to
>>turn people's skin white, a few black people were enabled to
>>pass who didn't have obvious traits in their physiognomy
>>that made them look black.
>>
>>A racist group circulated a complicated diagram purporting
>>to help people identify black people; simplified versions
>>involved drawing an X based on a person's nose and seeing
>>if it hit the pupils of their eyes.
>
>What an amazing font of racial stereotypes you are.

One of John Sladek's satires features a group of very racist,
rather dim Klan types who become convinced they've been
infiltrated by black people passsing as white. A series
of dubious racial purity tests follow, picking off the
KKK types one by one...

On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 08:26:39 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 04:05:04 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
><jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Thursday, July 22, 2021 at 12:25:13 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> OK, put up a photo with a diagram of the characteristics which lead
>>> you to believe that it is apparent.
>>
>>There are several photographs of her in this news article:
>>
>>https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9588299/Johnny-Cashs-wife-black-great-grandmother-freed-slave.html
>>
>>You can form your own opinion.
>>
>>ObSF: In the novel "White Pills", after a pill is developed to
>>turn people's skin white, a few black people were enabled to
>>pass who didn't have obvious traits in their physiognomy
>>that made them look black.
>>
>>A racist group circulated a complicated diagram purporting
>>to help people identify black people; simplified versions
>>involved drawing an X based on a person's nose and seeing
>>if it hit the pupils of their eyes.
>
>What an amazing font of racial stereotypes you are.

White Pills is by Ted Carroll, and was published in 1964. I read that
book perhaps fifty years ago, and Quaddy's describing the content with
reasonable accuracy. The protagonist, who has always been white, has
difficulties because having his nose broken in a childhood accident
has resulted in this test labeling him as black.

I remembered it as having a completely different title, but can't find
one. It wasn't a particularly good novel.

Anyway, the racial stereotypes aren't Quaddy's invention.

--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Tom Derringer & the Steam-Powered Saurians.