On Friday, 28 July 2023 at 02:23:39 UTC+10, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> On 2023-07-26 23:22:50 +0000, raymond....gmail.com said:
>
> > On Thursday, 27 July 2023 at 00:01:12 UTC+10, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> >> On 2023-07-26 09:01:06 +0000, Andy Evans said:>> > We tend to focus on
> >> the land heating up but it may be the sea that is> > the bigger
> >> problem> >> > The Antarctic is in the midst of a once in a
> >> 7.5-million-year winter,> > as sea ice surrounding the continent
> >> declines at a "concerning" rate> > which could have a "major impact" on
> >> the Earth's weather systems.> >> > A scientist from the British
> >> Antarctic Survey (BAS) has told Yahoo News> > that such a steep
> >> deterioration could create a "feedback loop" -> > causing ocean
> >> temperatures to therefore get hotter and hotter.> >> > Researchers have
> >> called the situation in the Antarctic Ocean a> > "five-sigma" event - a
> >> significant deviation from normal conditions.> > "As Antarctic sea ice
> >> melts, you're taking away a reflective surface> > and replacing it with
> >> kind of a dark surface - the ocean's surface -> > which absorbs more
> >> heat. This is what we call the albedo feedback> > effect, so as you
> >> melt the ice the ocean is exposed, it becomes warmer,> > it absorbs
> >> more heat from the sun and then that heats up the Earth> > more, which
> >> then means that it's harder for the ice to form."> >> > KEY LARGO,
> >> Florida (Reuters) - The surface ocean temperature in and> > around the
> >> Florida Keys soared to hot tub levels of 38° this week, amid> > recent
> >> warnings from global weather monitors about the dangerous impact> > of
> >> warming waters on ecosystems and extreme weather events. Normal> >
> >> water temperatures for this time of year should be between 23C and 31C..
> >> It's hard to point to events and just say this is caused by global>
> >> warming. However, I'm happy that someone has finally brought up the>
> >> Earth's albedo, and what mankind has been doing for centuries to make>
> >> it different. Black paved parking lots and roads, black solar panels>
> >> on almost every house and the replacement of green CO2 absorbing flora>
> >> with stark cityscapes mean the Earth is just absorbing more heat,>
> >> period.>> -Owen
> >
> > Agree, but remember that solar panels are designed to absorb heat
> > energy, else there would be no point. Solar energy farms might hinder
> > if only by taking up space where foliage could be. Also, this problem
> > has mostly been caused by actions taken or (not taken) in the last part
> > of the last century, up to the present, where a wilful procrastination
> > is the order of the day (lets keep kicking the can down the street for
> > the next generation to solve).
> >
> > Ray Hall, Taree
> Some solar panels are designed to absorb heat energy, others rely on
> photovoltaic action to produce electricity. Nevertheless, solar panels
> are at best 32% efficient, so all this additional heat energy
> ultimately stays on Earth, instead of being reflected back to space. In
> a planetary climate system motivated by heat, terraforming that planet
> will undoubtedly change its nature.
>
> -Owen

I should have said, instead of 'absorbing heat', absorption of light, and which via photovoltaic action produces electrical energy. It is light (photons) that can or not get reflected, depending upon how good a 'black body' an object is. An ideal black body being one that does not reflect any light at all (a black hole is a 99.99% ideal black body, the sun a not so ideal black body).

In any case, energy produced by solar cells is clearly better for the planet than energy produced by fossil fuels with its emission of CO2. The question is, does the manufacture and production of solar cells involve 'bad' energy which offsets some of the advantages of solar cells, and does the space occupied by large solar farms also offset the concommittant loss of areas for trees and foliage?

Public transport is part of an overall answer to 'bad' energy use, and helping the climate, notwithstanding the clear fact that hydrogen fueled cars, for personal use, are still in the future for most of us. Battery driven cars are old hat even now, and are an interim measure. The Toyota Mirai and the Hyundai Nexo are two such H2 fueled vehicles now available, with refueling that takes minutes, and which also have greater range. Production of the greater supplies of hydrogen required is the next step, aided by more advanced designs of next generation (higher temperature) nuclear reactors.

Ray Hall, Taree

On Friday, 28 July 2023 at 02:48:43 UTC+1, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> Public transport is part of an overall answer to 'bad' energy use, and helping the climate, notwithstanding the clear fact that hydrogen fueled cars, for personal use, are still in the future for most of us. Battery driven cars are old hat even now, and are an interim measure. The Toyota Mirai and the Hyundai Nexo are two such H2 fueled vehicles now available, with refueling that takes minutes, and which also have greater range. Production of the greater supplies of hydrogen required is the next step, aided by more advanced designs of next generation (higher temperature) nuclear reactors.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree

There are solutions, and we will have to invest heavily in them.

The big problem is that there will still be a huge amount of oil production happening. Neither Russia nor Saudi Arabia nor the USA are going to just stop selling and using oil, and the same for the other oil nations. And less developed countries with no nuclear power or battery/hydrogen vehicles are going to buy it. In fact the developed world is not likely to let go of fossil fuels either. The whole world needs viable alternatives within 5 years and we are absolutely nowhere near ready for that, in fact it's just a dream.

On Friday, 28 July 2023 at 19:12:40 UTC+10, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Friday, 28 July 2023 at 02:48:43 UTC+1, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> > Public transport is part of an overall answer to 'bad' energy use, and helping the climate, notwithstanding the clear fact that hydrogen fueled cars, for personal use, are still in the future for most of us. Battery driven cars are old hat even now, and are an interim measure. The Toyota Mirai and the Hyundai Nexo are two such H2 fueled vehicles now available, with refueling that takes minutes, and which also have greater range. Production of the greater supplies of hydrogen required is the next step, aided by more advanced designs of next generation (higher temperature) nuclear reactors.
> >
> > Ray Hall, Taree
> There are solutions, and we will have to invest heavily in them.
>
> The big problem is that there will still be a huge amount of oil production happening. Neither Russia nor Saudi Arabia nor the USA are going to just stop selling and using oil, and the same for the other oil nations. And less developed countries with no nuclear power or battery/hydrogen vehicles are going to buy it. In fact the developed world is not likely to let go of fossil fuels either. The whole world needs viable alternatives within 5 years and we are absolutely nowhere near ready for that, in fact it's just a dream.

No amount of money will help. It is too late. Only drastic lifestyle changes will, aided by willing politicians. All we can do now is adapt to climate change. Sad but this is the reality.

Ray Hall, Taree

Op vrijdag 28 juli 2023 om 15:29:46 UTC+2 schreef raymond....@gmail.com:

> No amount of money will help. It is too late. Only drastic lifestyle changes will, aided by willing politicians. All we can do now is adapt to climate change. Sad but this is the reality.

Agreed.
Just heard an interview with a public administration expert about our current crises. In the Netherlands, we have reached the stage where the following law comes into effect: "When you throw money at a problem, you create a bigger problem."

Henk

On Friday, 28 July 2023 at 15:48:39 UTC+1, HT wrote:
> Op vrijdag 28 juli 2023 om 15:29:46 UTC+2 schreef raymond....@gmail.com:
> > No amount of money will help. It is too late. Only drastic lifestyle changes will, aided by willing politicians. All we can do now is adapt to climate change. Sad but this is the reality.
> Agreed.
> Just heard an interview with a public administration expert about our current crises. In the Netherlands, we have reached the stage where the following law comes into effect: "When you throw money at a problem, you create a bigger problem."
>
> Henk

You can sympathise with politicians in the Netherlands for seeing rising sea levels as a potential disaster, or almost an extinction scenario. You start to see how "Extinction Rebellion" got its name.

Yes, indeed, it looks very bad for future years. You can imagine choruses of "if only...." going round the planet.

If animals had voices they'd be telling us how they feel about it. It affects a lot of them too, though I imagine few understand what's happening. .

> You can sympathise with politicians in the Netherlands for seeing rising sea levels as a potential disaster, or almost an extinction scenario. You start to see how "Extinction Rebellion" got its name.
>
> Yes, indeed, it looks very bad for future years. You can imagine choruses of "if only...." going round the planet.
>
> If animals had voices they'd be telling us how they feel about it. It affects a lot of them too, though I imagine few understand what's happening. .

If our politicians were willing to understand the problems we face, I would sympathize with them.

I live in a spot that will stay dry according to most scenarios. My problem is that if the water comes, I'll have to share it with thousands of others.

You never know with animals and plants. We eat them, and that is not the best way to become acquainted with their 'inner' life.

Henk

In article <424aa730-f78b-4009-a8c0-ca00f483d345n@googlegroups.com>,
HT <hvtuijl@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>You never know with animals and plants. We eat them, and that is
>not the best way to become acquainted with their 'inner' life.

Some disagree. As a view from the Americas, I might suggest that
losing respect for one's food is ultimately disastrous.

Op vrijdag 28 juli 2023 om 20:20:04 UTC+2 schreef Todd M. McComb:
> In article <424aa730-f78b-4009...@googlegroups.com>,
> HT <hvt...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> >You never know with animals and plants. We eat them, and that is
> >not the best way to become acquainted with their 'inner' life.
> Some disagree. As a view from the Americas, I might suggest that
> losing respect for one's food is ultimately disastrous.

Couldn't agree more. With the religiously inspired notion of stewardship, all respect has been lost.

Henk

In article <7b78758c-ce61-41c2-a81e-d9db8f97dd27n@googlegroups.com>,
HT <hvtuijl@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>With the religiously inspired notion of stewardship, all respect
>has been lost.

I'd say it's looking like a failed stewardship....

Op vrijdag 28 juli 2023 om 21:28:29 UTC+2 schreef Todd M. McComb:
> In article <7b78758c-ce61-41c2...@googlegroups.com>,
> HT <hvt...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> >With the religiously inspired notion of stewardship, all respect
> >has been lost.
> I'd say it's looking like a failed stewardship....

Is homo sapiens fit to be a steward? Could he ever succeed? What if the answer is "no"?

Henk

In article <c150ca5e-2928-46c1-9aff-3ae704032010n@googlegroups.com>,
HT <hvtuijl@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>Is homo sapiens fit to be a steward? Could he ever succeed? What
>if the answer is "no"?

I don't want to defend the religious view, but even according to
its own terms, it seems it may be time for something different....

Op vrijdag 28 juli 2023 om 23:13:37 UTC+2 schreef Todd M. McComb:
> In article <c150ca5e-2928-46c1...@googlegroups.com>,
> HT <hvt...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> >Is homo sapiens fit to be a steward? Could he ever succeed? What
> >if the answer is "no"?
> I don't want to defend the religious view, but even according to
> its own terms, it seems it may be time for something different....

Not to be flippant, but it reminds me of a story about a desperate and very naive scientist who contacted an alien civilization: mankind couldn't help itself, perhaps they could.

Henk

On 7/28/2023 6:20 PM, HT wrote:
> Op vrijdag 28 juli 2023 om 23:13:37 UTC+2 schreef Todd M. McComb:
>> In article <c150ca5e-2928-46c1...@googlegroups.com>,
>> HT <hvt...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>> Is homo sapiens fit to be a steward? Could he ever succeed? What
>>> if the answer is "no"?
>> I don't want to defend the religious view, but even according to
>> its own terms, it seems it may be time for something different....
>
> Not to be flippant, but it reminds me of a story about a desperate and very naive scientist who contacted an alien civilization: mankind couldn't help itself, perhaps they could.
>
> Henk

My religion permits eating animals. It does not permit abuse of animals (ritual slaughtering not being considered abuse). It says nothing about climate change or the proper response to it, but as life is the absolute highest value, I'm sure disaster aversion and attenuation policies would be totally kosher. I can't speak for other religions. It is true that fundamentalist type believers tend to be conservative and less likely, I suppose, to support massive policy changes easily. But eventually, they will have to, though I suppose more damage will have been done.

On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 6:29:46 AM UTC-7, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, 28 July 2023 at 19:12:40 UTC+10, Andy Evans wrote:
> > On Friday, 28 July 2023 at 02:48:43 UTC+1, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> > > Public transport is part of an overall answer to 'bad' energy use, and helping the climate, notwithstanding the clear fact that hydrogen fueled cars, for personal use, are still in the future for most of us. Battery driven cars are old hat even now, and are an interim measure. The Toyota Mirai and the Hyundai Nexo are two such H2 fueled vehicles now available, with refueling that takes minutes, and which also have greater range. Production of the greater supplies of hydrogen required is the next step, aided by more advanced designs of next generation (higher temperature) nuclear reactors..
> > >
> > > Ray Hall, Taree
> > There are solutions, and we will have to invest heavily in them.
> >
> > The big problem is that there will still be a huge amount of oil production happening. Neither Russia nor Saudi Arabia nor the USA are going to just stop selling and using oil, and the same for the other oil nations. And less developed countries with no nuclear power or battery/hydrogen vehicles are going to buy it. In fact the developed world is not likely to let go of fossil fuels either. The whole world needs viable alternatives within 5 years and we are absolutely nowhere near ready for that, in fact it's just a dream.
> No amount of money will help. It is too late. Only drastic lifestyle changes will, aided by willing politicians. All we can do now is adapt to climate change. Sad but this is the reality.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree

When it comes to dealing with a problem that requires drastic and urgent action, doesn't that require top-down decision-making and management?

According to the Wikipedia article on the "German Empire":

- Less preoccupied with continental power politics following unification in 1871, Germany's semi-parliamentary government carried out a relatively smooth economic and political revolution from above that pushed them along the way towards becoming the world's leading industrial power of the time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Empire#History

So what's the use of changing lifestyles if politicians aren't willing to become directly and actively involved with creating solutions and seeing to their implementation?

On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 6:29:46 AM UTC-7, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, 28 July 2023 at 19:12:40 UTC+10, Andy Evans wrote:
> > On Friday, 28 July 2023 at 02:48:43 UTC+1, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> > > Public transport is part of an overall answer to 'bad' energy use, and helping the climate, notwithstanding the clear fact that hydrogen fueled cars, for personal use, are still in the future for most of us. Battery driven cars are old hat even now, and are an interim measure. The Toyota Mirai and the Hyundai Nexo are two such H2 fueled vehicles now available, with refueling that takes minutes, and which also have greater range. Production of the greater supplies of hydrogen required is the next step, aided by more advanced designs of next generation (higher temperature) nuclear reactors..
> > >
> > > Ray Hall, Taree
> > There are solutions, and we will have to invest heavily in them.
> >
> > The big problem is that there will still be a huge amount of oil production happening. Neither Russia nor Saudi Arabia nor the USA are going to just stop selling and using oil, and the same for the other oil nations. And less developed countries with no nuclear power or battery/hydrogen vehicles are going to buy it. In fact the developed world is not likely to let go of fossil fuels either. The whole world needs viable alternatives within 5 years and we are absolutely nowhere near ready for that, in fact it's just a dream.
> No amount of money will help. It is too late. Only drastic lifestyle changes will, aided by willing politicians. All we can do now is adapt to climate change. Sad but this is the reality.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree

When it comes to dealing with a problem that requires drastic and urgent action, doesn't that require decision-making and management carried out "from above"?

According to the Wikipedia article on the "German Empire":

- Less preoccupied with continental power politics following unification in 1871, Germany's semi-parliamentary government carried out a relatively smooth economic and political revolution from above that pushed them along the way towards becoming the world's leading industrial power of the time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Empire#History

So is there any point in "lifestyle changes" on the part of average citizens if "willing politicians" don't exist to become directly and actively involved with creating solutions and then seeing to their implementation?

On Monday, 31 July 2023 at 06:50:19 UTC+1, gggg gggg wrote:

> So is there any point in "lifestyle changes" on the part of average citizens if "willing politicians" don't exist to become directly and actively involved with creating solutions and then seeing to their implementation?

Yes, of course, because:
- Politicians have to take some account of public opinion
- It's the right thing to do and makes populations feel less guilty and bad about themselves
- Solutions have to be visible so other less committed people can take a lead from the pioneers
- Groups of citizens with the same ideals and goals become pressure groups, and this snowballs

On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 2:55:02 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Monday, 31 July 2023 at 06:50:19 UTC+1, gggg gggg wrote:
>
> > So is there any point in "lifestyle changes" on the part of average citizens if "willing politicians" don't exist to become directly and actively involved with creating solutions and then seeing to their implementation?
> Yes, of course, because:
> - Politicians have to take some account of public opinion
> - It's the right thing to do and makes populations feel less guilty and bad about themselves
> - Solutions have to be visible so other less committed people can take a lead from the pioneers
> - Groups of citizens with the same ideals and goals become pressure groups, and this snowballs

(2023 Y. upload):

"Joe Rogan: "Governments Are Great At Creating Laws to Keep Themselves in Power""

On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 12:19:11 PM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:
> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 2:55:02 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> > On Monday, 31 July 2023 at 06:50:19 UTC+1, gggg gggg wrote:
> >
> > > So is there any point in "lifestyle changes" on the part of average citizens if "willing politicians" don't exist to become directly and actively involved with creating solutions and then seeing to their implementation?
> > Yes, of course, because:
> > - Politicians have to take some account of public opinion
> > - It's the right thing to do and makes populations feel less guilty and bad about themselves
> > - Solutions have to be visible so other less committed people can take a lead from the pioneers
> > - Groups of citizens with the same ideals and goals become pressure groups, and this snowballs
> (2023 Y. upload):
>
> "Joe Rogan: "Governments Are Great At Creating Laws to Keep Themselves in Power""

What Rogan failed to mention is governments are great at creating laws to also Increase their power and wealth:

According to this article:

- People who forgo profit for ethical reasons could thus be seen as harming society, because they are preventing resources from being used at maximum efficiency. Moreover, their restraint creates an opening for less ethical rivals. The elite in such a system increasingly consists of individuals who are willing to do anything not outright illegal that increases their wealth..

https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2019/11/02/a-scholar-of-inequality-ponders-the-future-of-capitalism

So is the elite anxious to do what it takes to increase their wealth?

Or are they OVERanxious to do whatEVER it takes to increase their wealth AND POWER?

And aren't the elite supposed to be concerned with the long term common good?:

- Planning in business and government is short-range; the long-term threats are someone else’s concern. This is to be expected in a competitive society where those who do not devote themselves to short-term advantage are unlikely to be in the competition in the long run.

Chomsky

On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 3:35:09 PM UTC-7,
> > >
> > > > So is there any point in "lifestyle changes" on the part of average citizens if "willing politicians" don't exist to become directly and actively involved with creating solutions and then seeing to their implementation?
> > > Yes, of course, because:
> > > - Politicians have to take some account of public opinion
> > > - It's the right thing to do and makes populations feel less guilty and bad about themselves
> > > - Solutions have to be visible so other less committed people can take a lead from the pioneers
> > > - Groups of citizens with the same ideals and goals become pressure groups, and this snowballs
> > (2023 Y. upload):
> >
> > "Joe Rogan: "Governments Are Great At Creating Laws to Keep Themselves in Power""
> What Rogan failed to mention is governments are great at creating laws to also Increase their power and wealth:
>
> According to this article:
>
> - People who forgo profit for ethical reasons could thus be seen as harming society, because they are preventing resources from being used at maximum efficiency. Moreover, their restraint creates an opening for less ethical rivals. The elite in such a system increasingly consists of individuals who are willing to do anything not outright illegal that increases their wealth.
>
> https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2019/11/02/a-scholar-of-inequality-ponders-the-future-of-capitalism
>
> So is the elite anxious to do what it takes to increase their wealth?
>
> Or are they OVERanxious to do whatEVER it takes to increase their wealth AND POWER?
>
> And aren't the elite supposed to be concerned with the long term common good?:
>
> - Planning in business and government is short-range; the long-term threats are someone else’s concern. This is to be expected in a competitive society where those who do not devote themselves to short-term advantage are unlikely to be in the competition in the long run.
>
> Chomsky

(2023 Y. upload):

"Not enough water to go around: Colorado River Basin, ravaged by drought, plans for a drier future"

On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 3:46:16 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> According to this:
>
> - Nature is changing. Today's hurricanes tend to be stronger, wetter, and less predictable than those of the last century. They hold more moisture, speed up more quickly, and stay together longer.
>
> https://news.yahoo.com/floridas-climate-exodus-already-begun-110000919.html

(2023 Y. upload):

"U.N. Warns: "The Era of Global Boiling Has Arrived"

On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 3:46:16 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
> According to this:
>
> - Nature is changing. Today's hurricanes tend to be stronger, wetter, and less predictable than those of the last century. They hold more moisture, speed up more quickly, and stay together longer.
>
> https://news.yahoo.com/floridas-climate-exodus-already-begun-110000919.html

Today's typhoons must also be getting stronger considering what Beijing has been going through even though it's not a coastal city and is in the northern part of China:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=beijing+typhoon

On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 3:46:16 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
> According to this:
>
> - Nature is changing. Today's hurricanes tend to be stronger, wetter, and less predictable than those of the last century. They hold more moisture, speed up more quickly, and stay together longer.
>
> https://news.yahoo.com/floridas-climate-exodus-already-begun-110000919.html

In the future, will we be more at the mercy of natural disasters or man made disasters?

Will human error be the death of us?:

https://news.yahoo.com/development-tourism-and-climate-change-how-humans-made-mauis-catastrophic-wildfires-worse-215135003.html

On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 3:46:16 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> According to this:
>
> - Nature is changing. Today's hurricanes tend to be stronger, wetter, and less predictable than those of the last century. They hold more moisture, speed up more quickly, and stay together longer.
>
> https://news.yahoo.com/floridas-climate-exodus-already-begun-110000919.html

https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2023-08-18/lahaina-yellowknife-hurricane-hilary-climate-scientists-watch-predictions-come-true

On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 3:46:16 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
> According to this:
>
> - Nature is changing. Today's hurricanes tend to be stronger, wetter, and less predictable than those of the last century. They hold more moisture, speed up more quickly, and stay together longer.
>
> https://news.yahoo.com/floridas-climate-exodus-already-begun-110000919.html

Hilary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNXFjrF3WPk

Canada has suffered awful wild fires, USA is now suffering floods.

When will America start doing ANYTHING significant about radically cutting emissions? They still don't get it.