In article <db52779e-a4aa-4f8c-86aa-aa06f79fc970n@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:
>Why should any musician listen to previous interpretations? They have
>the score, they have been trained in how to read it, translate it into
>sounds. They have their instrument, and they have their technique and
>imagination. That's all they need.

Obviously something like that has to suffice when one is playing
something for the first time, particularly old music where no one
alive has ever heard it.... That's a world I've been in for a long
time. I can't say as I really like it though: It's simply a
necessary situation for some music, and decades ago, I was pining
for a situation where performers (singers especially) had actually
grown up hearing the music. Now some have, and results are good!
Meanwhile, we have others saying "Of course I've never heard this..."
& their results are tedious. One might get some interesting
iconoclast out of such a scenario, but mostly one just gets mediocre
nothing....

So why should any musician listen to other interpretations? To
learn more about music! Once one has established one's repertory,
sure, maybe there is no more reason to hear others. Why do you
listen to others?

>Have you read Pierre Bourdieu.

Yes. And in fact, much of your discussion seemed to be saying how
much e.g. growing up hearing particular music ends up affecting
someone more deeply than they realize.

On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 6:17:44 PM UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:

>
> So why should any musician listen to other interpretations? To
> learn more about music! Once one has established one's repertory,
> sure, maybe there is no more reason to hear others.

I'd like to hear from musicians about this.

In article <31a2c479-dc18-4594-bb1d-ac291793ae66n@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:
>I'd like to hear from musicians about this.

It's probably in part due to the specific influence of the jazz
tradition, but when contemporary improvisors are interviewed, there's
usually substantial discussion of their influences, what they heard
growing up, what they like to listen to now.... It's an ordinary
part of many musical conversations, so I'm not sure what seems
strange to you....

In article <ui3hhg$de3$1@hope.eyrie.org>,
Todd M. McComb <mccomb@medieval.org> wrote:
>It's probably in part due to the specific influence of the jazz
>tradition, but when contemporary improvisors are interviewed, there's
>usually substantial discussion of their influences, what they heard
>growing up, what they like to listen to now.... It's an ordinary
>part of many musical conversations, so I'm not sure what seems
>strange to you....

BTW, my middle daughter was really pompous about this when she was
a teen -- and I guess I'm only assuming she's softened her views
since.... "I only listen to music I make!" was a typical rejoinder
from her when someone would ask her what she liked.... Well, OK.

On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 3:53:17 PM UTC+8, Mandryka wrote:
> On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 5:06:01 AM UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> > In article <084dea02-214b-47db...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >Every performer, informed or uninformed, ought to come up with
> > >their own approach. Interpretation is an art.
> > Well yes, but that doesn't rule out building more on what others
> > have done, rather than starting from scratch.
> Give me a concrete example. Did Cortot’s pupils build on what Cortot had done when they played Chopin? I don’t hear it. Did anyone build on what Furtwangler did?

I remember comparing the Pearl releases 'Pupils of Clara Schumann' and 'Pupils of Liszt'. The Schumann pupils all sounded almost exactly the same, whereas the Liszt pupils seemed to have nothing in common with each other. It was an interesting contrast as far as what it implied about the respective approaches to pedagogy. Don't you think though that there are absolutely identifiable lineages built on learning the style of a teacher? Like, how else do you get stylistically-distinct 'French pianism' as opposed to 'Russian pianism' for example - is it the weather?

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 3:31:30 AM UTC+8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <ui3hhg$de3$1...@hope.eyrie.org>,
> Todd M. McComb <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:
>"I only listen to music I make!"

This is so powerful...

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 1:07:39 PM UTC, cheregi wrote:
> On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 3:53:17 PM UTC+8, Mandryka wrote:
> > On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 5:06:01 AM UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> > > In article <084dea02-214b-47db...@googlegroups.com>,
> > > Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >Every performer, informed or uninformed, ought to come up with
> > > >their own approach. Interpretation is an art.
> > > Well yes, but that doesn't rule out building more on what others
> > > have done, rather than starting from scratch.
> > Give me a concrete example. Did Cortot’s pupils build on what Cortot had done when they played Chopin? I don’t hear it. Did anyone build on what Furtwangler did?
> I remember comparing the Pearl releases 'Pupils of Clara Schumann' and 'Pupils of Liszt'. The Schumann pupils all sounded almost exactly the same, whereas the Liszt pupils seemed to have nothing in common with each other. It was an interesting contrast as far as what it implied about the respective approaches to pedagogy. Don't you think though that there are absolutely identifiable lineages built on learning the style of a teacher? Like, how else do you get stylistically-distinct 'French pianism' as opposed to 'Russian pianism' for example - is it the weather?

I don’t think that teachers necessarily build identifiable images. Leonhardt and Walcha didn’t.

Re French pianism as opposed to Russian pianism, let me ask you something: does Cortot’s touch sound so different from Horowitz’s in their early recordings of the Liszt sonata?

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 12:56:35 AM UTC+8, Mandryka wrote:
> On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 1:07:39 PM UTC, cheregi wrote:
> > On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 3:53:17 PM UTC+8, Mandryka wrote:
> > > On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 5:06:01 AM UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> > > > In article <084dea02-214b-47db...@googlegroups.com>,
> > > > Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >Every performer, informed or uninformed, ought to come up with
> > > > >their own approach. Interpretation is an art.
> > > > Well yes, but that doesn't rule out building more on what others
> > > > have done, rather than starting from scratch.
> > > Give me a concrete example. Did Cortot’s pupils build on what Cortot had done when they played Chopin? I don’t hear it. Did anyone build on what Furtwangler did?
> > I remember comparing the Pearl releases 'Pupils of Clara Schumann' and 'Pupils of Liszt'. The Schumann pupils all sounded almost exactly the same, whereas the Liszt pupils seemed to have nothing in common with each other. It was an interesting contrast as far as what it implied about the respective approaches to pedagogy. Don't you think though that there are absolutely identifiable lineages built on learning the style of a teacher? Like, how else do you get stylistically-distinct 'French pianism' as opposed to 'Russian pianism' for example - is it the weather?
> I don’t think that teachers necessarily build identifiable images.. Leonhardt and Walcha didn’t.
>
> Re French pianism as opposed to Russian pianism, let me ask you something: does Cortot’s touch sound so different from Horowitz’s in their early recordings of the Liszt sonata?

Do you mean here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feWKbokuPek and here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoQ1WGWrox4 ?

I really would like to be compelled by the idea that 'national style in classical pianism' is an artificially-imposed narrative with no real explanatory power, but I'm not convinced yet. As for Cortot and Horowitz here, I am not such a good listener that with this old audio I can definitively say much about touch, but I can say there are at least a few differences in interpretation (but whether those are at the level of 'national style' is pure speculation). But the differences are much more pronounced if you pick something more canonical, like Chopin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGi7LYzBPoI vs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QXz8-rQ2hE

So maybe it's possible to argue that the Liszt sonata was new enough at that time, and so widely heard as played by the composer during his lifetime, that the different schools of interpretation had not yet had a chance to diverge all that far..? And then of course ubiquity of audio recordings interrupts the whole process dramatically.

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 7:56:49 AM UTC+8, cheregi wrote:
> and so widely heard as played by the composer during his lifetime,

Actually I have no idea if this part is true. I just assumed from what I know about Liszt...

In article <uhufc0$pak$1@hope.eyrie.org>,
Todd M. McComb <mccomb@medieval.org> wrote:
>Listening through this lengthy set once, I was indeed struck by
>some of her [Blank's] virtuosic interpretations in the big works.
>Many of the pieces seemed to run together stylistically though....

Listening a second time to the full set, I definitely feel that the
faster/more virtuosic pieces/passages are more her strength.

>Another recent recording that struck me on a first hearing -- and
>this is almost more a WAYLTL post -- is Chylek's new "Tallis - Byrd
>- Gibbons" using both organ & harpsichord, which I found a lot more
>compelling on first impression than his prior Byrd readings....

And I continue to enjoy this more on a track-to-track basis, although
some pieces from Blank's set are probably more valuable to me in
the long run....

Anyway, to quote the liner notes by John Dante Prevedini:

"What makes Byrd's music so powerful in this way, from a listening
perspective? I can only speak from the inevitable subjectivity of
my own lived experience, but one thing that keeps bringing me back
to his music is its sense of existential reconciliation. By this
I mean a voice that seems to make sense of the big questions of
life while also integrating them into the earthiness of daily
experience. I hear this in his unique combination of emotionally
profound lyricism in his melodic lines, an infectious and dance-like
rhythmic drive, a playful spirit in imitative polyphony, and the
breadth of harmonic nuances made possible by his modal thinking."

On Thursday, November 9, 2023 at 9:14:30 AM UTC+8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> "What makes Byrd's music so powerful in this way, from a listening
> perspective? I can only speak from the inevitable subjectivity of
> my own lived experience, but one thing that keeps bringing me back
> to his music is its sense of existential reconciliation. By this
> I mean a voice that seems to make sense of the big questions of
> life while also integrating them into the earthiness of daily
> experience. I hear this in his unique combination of emotionally
> profound lyricism in his melodic lines, an infectious and dance-like
> rhythmic drive, a playful spirit in imitative polyphony, and the
> breadth of harmonic nuances made possible by his modal thinking."

I have nothing to add, but I like this passage and will think about it next time I decide to listen to Byrd interpretations. Is Moroney still your most highly recommended?

In article <d6e3b9c9-8f3f-4cfa-beba-765f910a9612n@googlegroups.com>,
cheregi <elirkerry@gmail.com> wrote:
>Is Moroney still your most highly recommended?

That's the landmark survey, yes, although there are getting to be
individual interpretations I might prefer.... Moroney really "gets"
Byrd (& had a lot to do with popularizing the keyboard works), and
plays some more interesting (than most) instruments as well.

Note in general, per the thread, that I'm interested in other aspects
of Byrd's output here during the anniversary too.... I do consider
him one of the greatest keyboard composers of all time though.

In article <uii32m$qe$1@hope.eyrie.org>,
Todd M. McComb <mccomb@medieval.org> wrote:
>That's the landmark survey, yes, although there are getting to be
>individual interpretations I might prefer....

For Blank's survey, I've really enjoyed e.g. her "Passing Measures"
Pavan & Galliard. That might be a good piece for new listeners,
at least for those for whom more rhythmic-virtuosic pieces appeal....
(Moroney recorded it in both of his big Byrd surveys.)

In article <uii3i6$115$1@hope.eyrie.org>,
Todd M. McComb <mccomb@medieval.org> wrote:
>For Blank's survey, I've really enjoyed e.g. her "Passing Measures"
>Pavan & Galliard.

Her rendition of "Fortune" leading off CD2 is really good too.

On Thursday, November 9, 2023 at 8:00:12 AM UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <uii32m$qe$1...@hope.eyrie.org>,
> Todd M. McComb <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:
> >That's the landmark survey, yes, although there are getting to be
> >individual interpretations I might prefer....
> For Blank's survey, I've really enjoyed e.g. her "Passing Measures"
> Pavan & Galliard. That might be a good piece for new listeners,
> at least for those for whom more rhythmic-virtuosic pieces appeal....
> (Moroney recorded it in both of his big Byrd surveys.)

She released three major recordings this year - the Byrd, an AoF and an Italian compilation CD. They have all been ignored by reviewers as far as I can see. It’s a shame. She’s very friendly and I’m sure she’d love to exchange ideas with someone writing a review (hint, hint.)

I’ll just mention that Hogwood remains top pick for me!

On Thursday, November 9, 2023 at 5:36:29 PM UTC+8, Mandryka wrote:
> I’ll just mention that Hogwood remains top pick for me!

OK, noted... I'll enjoy comparing Hogwood and Moroney.

Also, this is deliriously off-topic, but Mandryka you mentioned Lena Jacobson recently and I remembered you bringing her up at some other point. I am really enjoying her insane Buxtehude and also the absolutely phenomenal Hans Davidsson (another great organist) review of a reissue of hers, here https://www.sscm-jscm.org/jscm/v6/no2/davidsson.html , you've probably seen it - it's just really in line with my interest in 'HIP as high-modernism':

"The uncompromising projection of the idea of a “sung tonal speech” in Jacobson’s playing unfortunately results in a constructed irregularity that is perceived as regular, and a non-intuitive mannerism that gives no space for balance, contrast, or the unexpected, all considered to be essential elements of the seventeenth-century paradigm. The result is an almost surrealistic picture of scattered motives and ideas, “cut-out phrases and gestures,” with no relationship to one another"

"The recording, however, can possibly be seen as a congenial application of an important perspective of twentieth-century aesthetics: the uncompromising projection and realization of a purely intellectual concept. As such it is indeed an impressive accomplishment, a truly consistent practice of performance rather than a performance in an historical practice."

On Friday, November 10, 2023 at 12:51:47 PM UTC, cheregi wrote:
> On Thursday, November 9, 2023 at 5:36:29 PM UTC+8, Mandryka wrote:
> > I’ll just mention that Hogwood remains top pick for me!
> OK, noted... I'll enjoy comparing Hogwood and Moroney.
>
> Also, this is deliriously off-topic, but Mandryka you mentioned Lena Jacobson recently and I remembered you bringing her up at some other point. I am really enjoying her insane Buxtehude and also the absolutely phenomenal Hans Davidsson (another great organist) review of a reissue of hers, here https://www.sscm-jscm.org/jscm/v6/no2/davidsson.html , you've probably seen it - it's just really in line with my interest in 'HIP as high-modernism':
>
> "The uncompromising projection of the idea of a “sung tonal speech” in Jacobson’s playing unfortunately results in a constructed irregularity that is perceived as regular, and a non-intuitive mannerism that gives no space for balance, contrast, or the unexpected, all considered to be essential elements of the seventeenth-century paradigm. The result is an almost surrealistic picture of scattered motives and ideas, “cut-out phrases and gestures,” with no relationship to one another"
>
> "The recording, however, can possibly be seen as a congenial application of an important perspective of twentieth-century aesthetics: the uncompromising projection and realization of a purely intellectual concept. As such it is indeed an impressive accomplishment, a truly consistent practice of performance rather than a performance in an historical practice."

Actually by coincidence I've got quite interested in the Compenius chest organ in Frederiksborg Castle, and so I got out her recording of dances just a couple of days ago, I thought it was bloody awful, unlistenable!

This, if you're sufficiently masochistic

https://www.discogs.com/master/1790921-Lena-Jacobson-Court-Dance-Music-From-The-Renaissance-And-Early-Baroque-On-The-Organ-By-Esaias-Compen

In article <e47cd96c-1f3f-4672-95c8-d92e3eca52bcn@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:
>She's very friendly and I'm sure she'd love to exchange ideas with
>someone writing a review (hint, hint.)

Ha, well, thanks for the suggestion. I don't have a regular review
practice for music of the era, and hadn't really thought about doing
that when expressing interest in this thread.... I do have a soft
spot for the keyboard works though, so it's not a bad idea....
Except that I may be moving soon, which is going to be a huge project
after so many years, so I'll probably be out of commission -- other
than short comments like this -- for a few months....

On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 12:38:35 AM UTC+8, Mandryka wrote:
> Actually by coincidence I've got quite interested in the Compenius chest organ in Frederiksborg Castle, and so I got out her recording of dances just a couple of days ago, I thought it was bloody awful, unlistenable!
>
> This, if you're sufficiently masochistic
>
> https://www.discogs.com/master/1790921-Lena-Jacobson-Court-Dance-Music-From-The-Renaissance-And-Early-Baroque-On-The-Organ-By-Esaias-Compen

This is incredible, thank you! I don't know what to make of it, I think some of it is transcendently beautiful... I'm totally convinced by Lena Jacobson I think

On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 9:35:26 AM UTC+8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> I'll probably be out of commission -- other
> than short comments like this -- for a few months....

Your longer-form writings will be missed!

In article <5d31ba19-790e-44d2-a21d-aaa2966b5358n@googlegroups.com>,
cheregi <elirkerry@gmail.com> wrote:
>Your longer-form writings will be missed!

Thanks for the message. Hopefully I'll be settled again before too
long....

I know this is old news for everybody else but after the last ~hour listening to Moroney I'm finally starting to 'get' Byrd. I think the mistake I made in the past was to start with the fantasies, which I usually hear as bewilderingly technical, but this time I'm really fixated on the galliard-pavane sets, I love the 'ponderous-playfulness' feeling and the queasy medieval-seeming pseudo-major feeling... there is a, like, arcane directness, like something is being stated very clearly but the thing being stated is complex enough to demand various arbitrary-seeming left turns, I don't know

On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 9:18:26 AM UTC, cheregi wrote:
> I know this is old news for everybody else but after the last ~hour listening to Moroney I'm finally starting to 'get' Byrd. I think the mistake I made in the past was to start with the fantasies, which I usually hear as bewilderingly technical, but this time I'm really fixated on the galliard-pavane sets, I love the 'ponderous-playfulness' feeling and the queasy medieval-seeming pseudo-major feeling... there is a, like, arcane directness, like something is being stated very clearly but the thing being stated is complex enough to demand various arbitrary-seeming left turns, I don't know
There are some very complex contrapuntal pavans by Byrd -- Quadran, 7th and 8th.
This Pavan/Galliard genre was quite a big thing in the UK at the time -- Bull wrote a set too, which as far as I know only Joseph Payne has recorded as a sequence.
Moroney asserted that they're peak Byrd in the essay he wrote for his first recording. For me peak Byrd is probably the A minor fantasia.

On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 7:22:32 PM UTC+8, Mandryka wrote:
> On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 9:18:26 AM UTC, cheregi wrote:
> > I know this is old news for everybody else but after the last ~hour listening to Moroney I'm finally starting to 'get' Byrd. I think the mistake I made in the past was to start with the fantasies, which I usually hear as bewilderingly technical, but this time I'm really fixated on the galliard-pavane sets, I love the 'ponderous-playfulness' feeling and the queasy medieval-seeming pseudo-major feeling... there is a, like, arcane directness, like something is being stated very clearly but the thing being stated is complex enough to demand various arbitrary-seeming left turns, I don't know
> There are some very complex contrapuntal pavans by Byrd -- Quadran, 7th and 8th.
> This Pavan/Galliard genre was quite a big thing in the UK at the time -- Bull wrote a set too, which as far as I know only Joseph Payne has recorded as a sequence.
> Moroney asserted that they're peak Byrd in the essay he wrote for his first recording. For me peak Byrd is probably the A minor fantasia.

That fantasia is exactly the kind of thing I feel I should appreciate much more than I actually do when I listen to it!

Does Moroney talk about whether the pavan/galliard sets were actually meant for dancing? I've wondered this.