"Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> writes:
>On 02/02/2022 19.13, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 2/2/2022 6:40 PM, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 3:07:43 PM UTC-6, Jay E. Morris wrote:
>
>>>> As has been said, I plan on living forever and so far it's working.
>>>
>>> What does it take to qualify as a newly-discovered Howard? Was
>>> it all eight grandparents living to eighty in good health? I think
>>> it was mentioned in _The Tale of the Adapted Daughter_ in
>>> _Time Enough for Love_.
>>
>> I only had four grandparents.  Tell me more about the eight grandparents, that must be interesting.
>
>It's a Heinlein story. Eight are barely enough.

Although it is likely that Heinlein was referring to eight
great-grandparents if Jay's recollection is correct.

On 2/3/2022 12:18 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> "Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 02/02/2022 19.13, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 2/2/2022 6:40 PM, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 3:07:43 PM UTC-6, Jay E. Morris wrote:
>>
>>>>> As has been said, I plan on living forever and so far it's working.
>>>>
>>>> What does it take to qualify as a newly-discovered Howard? Was
>>>> it all eight grandparents living to eighty in good health? I think
>>>> it was mentioned in _The Tale of the Adapted Daughter_ in
>>>> _Time Enough for Love_.
>>>
>>> I only had four grandparents.  Tell me more about the eight grandparents, that must be interesting.
>>
>> It's a Heinlein story. Eight are barely enough.
>
> Although it is likely that Heinlein was referring to eight
> great-grandparents if Jay's recollection is correct.

I thought it was four living grandparents in 'Methuselah's Children".

Lynn

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>On 2/3/2022 12:18 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> "Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> writes:
>>> On 02/02/2022 19.13, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 2/2/2022 6:40 PM, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 3:07:43 PM UTC-6, Jay E. Morris wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> As has been said, I plan on living forever and so far it's working.
>>>>>
>>>>> What does it take to qualify as a newly-discovered Howard? Was
>>>>> it all eight grandparents living to eighty in good health? I think
>>>>> it was mentioned in _The Tale of the Adapted Daughter_ in
>>>>> _Time Enough for Love_.
>>>>
>>>> I only had four grandparents.  Tell me more about the eight grandparents, that must be interesting.
>>>
>>> It's a Heinlein story. Eight are barely enough.
>>
>> Although it is likely that Heinlein was referring to eight
>> great-grandparents if Jay's recollection is correct.
>
>I thought it was four living grandparents in 'Methuselah's Children".
>
>Lynn
>
"But by the Trustees' rules, a person not derived from the Families'
genealogies can be registered as a newly discovered Howard if he
can show proof of four grandparents surviving at least to one hundred.

And that rule would have excluded me, had I not been born into the
Families. But on top of that, the age I had reached when I got my first
rejuvenation is too great to be accounted for by the Howard breeding experiment."

On Thursday, 3 February 2022 at 20:37:36 UTC, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 2/3/2022 12:18 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> > "Michael F. Stemper" <michael...@gmail.com> writes:
> >> On 02/02/2022 19.13, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >>> On 2/2/2022 6:40 PM, peterw...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 3:07:43 PM UTC-6, Jay E. Morris wrote:
> >>
> >>>>> As has been said, I plan on living forever and so far it's working.
> >>>>
> >>>> What does it take to qualify as a newly-discovered Howard? Was
> >>>> it all eight grandparents living to eighty in good health? I think
> >>>> it was mentioned in _The Tale of the Adapted Daughter_ in
> >>>> _Time Enough for Love_.
> >>>
> >>> I only had four grandparents. Tell me more about the eight grandparents, that must be interesting.
> >>
> >> It's a Heinlein story. Eight are barely enough.
> >
> > Although it is likely that Heinlein was referring to eight
> > great-grandparents if Jay's recollection is correct.
> I thought it was four living grandparents in 'Methuselah's Children".

The original subject being "Mathematical science
fiction books", a couple to be sponsored would
have 8 grandparents between them, I think.
Up to 8 different people, and you can argue for
demanding the maximum.

There's a risk of
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_My_Own_Grandpa>
of course.

On 2/3/2022 4:51 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 2/3/2022 12:18 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> "Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> On 02/02/2022 19.13, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 2/2/2022 6:40 PM, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 3:07:43 PM UTC-6, Jay E. Morris wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> As has been said, I plan on living forever and so far it's working.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What does it take to qualify as a newly-discovered Howard? Was
>>>>>> it all eight grandparents living to eighty in good health? I think
>>>>>> it was mentioned in _The Tale of the Adapted Daughter_ in
>>>>>> _Time Enough for Love_.
>>>>>
>>>>> I only had four grandparents.  Tell me more about the eight grandparents, that must be interesting.
>>>>
>>>> It's a Heinlein story. Eight are barely enough.
>>>
>>> Although it is likely that Heinlein was referring to eight
>>> great-grandparents if Jay's recollection is correct.
>>
>> I thought it was four living grandparents in 'Methuselah's Children".
>>
>> Lynn
>>
> "But by the Trustees' rules, a person not derived from the Families'
> genealogies can be registered as a newly discovered Howard if he
> can show proof of four grandparents surviving at least to one hundred.
>
> And that rule would have excluded me, had I not been born into the
> Families. But on top of that, the age I had reached when I got my first
> rejuvenation is too great to be accounted for by the Howard breeding experiment."

All four grandparents hitting 100 is a very high bar to cross. Mine
made it to 64, 86, 86, and 88.

Lynn

On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 10:28:13 AM UTC+11, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 2/3/2022 4:51 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> > Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> writes:
> >> On 2/3/2022 12:18 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >>> "Michael F. Stemper" <michael...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>> On 02/02/2022 19.13, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >>>>> On 2/2/2022 6:40 PM, peterw...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>> On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 3:07:43 PM UTC-6, Jay E. Morris wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> As has been said, I plan on living forever and so far it's working.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> What does it take to qualify as a newly-discovered Howard? Was
> >>>>>> it all eight grandparents living to eighty in good health? I think
> >>>>>> it was mentioned in _The Tale of the Adapted Daughter_ in
> >>>>>> _Time Enough for Love_.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I only had four grandparents. Tell me more about the eight grandparents, that must be interesting.
> >>>>
> >>>> It's a Heinlein story. Eight are barely enough.
> >>>
> >>> Although it is likely that Heinlein was referring to eight
> >>> great-grandparents if Jay's recollection is correct.
> >>
> >> I thought it was four living grandparents in 'Methuselah's Children".
> >>
> >> Lynn
> >>
> > "But by the Trustees' rules, a person not derived from the Families'
> > genealogies can be registered as a newly discovered Howard if he
> > can show proof of four grandparents surviving at least to one hundred.
> >
> > And that rule would have excluded me, had I not been born into the
> > Families. But on top of that, the age I had reached when I got my first
> > rejuvenation is too great to be accounted for by the Howard breeding experiment."
> All four grandparents hitting 100 is a very high bar to cross. Mine
> made it to 64, 86, 86, and 88.

Mine made it to 27, 68, 82 and 83. The latter three died of heart issues, so I keep an eye on my own health in that area. The first died of being shot by Germans, which is probably not a hereditary condition.

-Moriarty

On Thursday, February 3, 2022 at 5:42:04 PM UTC-6, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Feb 2022 18:18:47 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
> wrote:
> >Although it is likely that Heinlein was referring to eight
> >great-grandparents if Jay's recollection is correct.
> Probably right though Heinlein's greatest genetic oddity in my opinion
> was the slave trader who created twins who were genetically unrelated
> since while each parent had 46 chromosomes each child got different 23
> chromosomes from each parent. Meaning of course that because the
> parents between them had 3 X chromosomes and 1 Y their children were
> male and female.
>
> Since the slave trader wanted the biggest financial return he raised
> them as marriage partners from the beginning - and while Heinlein
> hadn't given them children in the story this legally incestuous but
> not genetically incestuous relationship worked out.
>
> I'm pretty sure this was in Time Enough for Love where Lazerus Long
> rescued them and financially endowed them so they could live
> independently out of the public eye with a decent standdard of living.
>
> I was a high school senior when he wrote TEfL so knew enough genetics
> to fully understand the details without going to the library (which I
> occasionally did when a science fiction writer wrote something I
> didn't understand and I wanted to know whether it was real or made up.
> ("handwaveium"). I didn't know how the slaver managed to do the
> genetic manipulation but figured it would be straightforward 2000
> years from now and understand what had happened without knowing how.

I seem to remember that the "wins that weren't" were created by some kind
of religious organization and ended up being sold to the slave trader perhaps
as a result of a change in policy. The genetic technology used was
state-of-the-art for its time.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 1:02:45 PM UTC-5, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 04:51:57 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
> wrote:
> >>So does ours - and she insists on getting fed before my morning
> >>coffee. I've suggested a second kitty but my wife just says 'that is
> >>SO not ending well' based on how she treats the dog. (He's about 5x
> >>her size but there's no question who rules the roost!
> >
> >We adopted ours together; they're littermates and difficult to
> >tell apart. Stillfot is solid black, Misthlith is the same
> >except for a little lace jabot (about 15-20 white hairs) under
> >her chin.
> Jilly-puss is a dark grey 'tuxedo' kitty (think Sylvester but grey)
> and has shiny fur - generally a sign of good health - but has gotten a
> bit porky over the winter. She loves our gas fireplace in the
> evenings.

Sylvester turned porky? That's daffy!

--
Kevin R

On Friday, 4 February 2022 at 02:26:44 UTC, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, February 3, 2022 at 5:42:04 PM UTC-6, The Horny Goat wrote:
> > On Thu, 03 Feb 2022 18:18:47 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
> > wrote:
> > >Although it is likely that Heinlein was referring to eight
> > >great-grandparents if Jay's recollection is correct.
> > Probably right though Heinlein's greatest genetic oddity in my opinion
> > was the slave trader who created twins who were genetically unrelated
> > since while each parent had 46 chromosomes each child got different 23
> > chromosomes from each parent. Meaning of course that because the
> > parents between them had 3 X chromosomes and 1 Y their children were
> > male and female.
> >
> > Since the slave trader wanted the biggest financial return he raised
> > them as marriage partners from the beginning - and while Heinlein
> > hadn't given them children in the story this legally incestuous but
> > not genetically incestuous relationship worked out.
> >
> > I'm pretty sure this was in Time Enough for Love where Lazerus Long
> > rescued them and financially endowed them so they could live
> > independently out of the public eye with a decent standdard of living.
> >
> > I was a high school senior when he wrote TEfL so knew enough genetics
> > to fully understand the details without going to the library (which I
> > occasionally did when a science fiction writer wrote something I
> > didn't understand and I wanted to know whether it was real or made up.
> > ("handwaveium"). I didn't know how the slaver managed to do the
> > genetic manipulation but figured it would be straightforward 2000
> > years from now and understand what had happened without knowing how.
> I seem to remember that the "wins that weren't" were created by some kind
> of religious organization and ended up being sold to the slave trader perhaps
> as a result of a change in policy. The genetic technology used was
> state-of-the-art for its time.

IIRC, in natural human reproduction, one entire
X or Y chromosome is included in the sperm or
egg cell, and one chromosome for each other pair
of chromosomes is made by reading the pair in
parallel and copying from one and from the other.

The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog
Now is the time for all good men to come to the party

Now is the brown fox all good over the lazy dog

So I suppose you could "simply" take all my whole
chromosomes out and put them into two sperm cells,
and do the same with a mother's chromosomes
in egg cells, and then let nanobiological genetic
manipulation take its course.

But why? Does your religion think the other way is dirty?

On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 11:14:01 AM UTC+11, Moriarty wrote:
> On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 10:28:13 AM UTC+11, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > All four grandparents hitting 100 is a very high bar to cross. Mine
> > made it to 64, 86, 86, and 88.
> Mine made it to 27, 68, 82 and 83. The latter three died of heart issues, so I keep an eye on my own health in that area. The first died of being shot by Germans, which is probably not a hereditary condition.
>

If it happened in 1914-18 there was a reasonable chance of the next generation having a reoccurrence in 39-45

On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 10:42:04 AM UTC+11, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Feb 2022 18:18:47 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
> wrote:
> >Although it is likely that Heinlein was referring to eight
> >great-grandparents if Jay's recollection is correct.
> Probably right though Heinlein's greatest genetic oddity in my opinion
> was the slave trader who created twins who were genetically unrelated
> since while each parent had 46 chromosomes each child got different 23
> chromosomes from each parent. Meaning of course that because the
> parents between them had 3 X chromosomes and 1 Y their children were
> male and female.
>
That was the claim.
Lazarus wasn't entirely convinced although his later discoveries about them make it more likely.
> Since the slave trader wanted the biggest financial return he raised
> them as marriage partners from the beginning

I think the term was "breeding partners" rather than marriage partners. I suspect that slaves weren't allowed to marry.

>- and while Heinlein hadn't given them children in the story

They had quite a few children during the story, with Lazarus delivering their first in space in his trading ship with the assistance of a bump from the artificial gravity

>this legally incestuous but not genetically incestuous relationship worked out.
>
> I'm pretty sure this was in Time Enough for Love where Lazerus Long
> rescued them

He bought them and left the slave trader in the combination locked chastity belt

>and financially endowed them so they could live
> independently out of the public eye with a decent standdard of living.

He took them with them and set them up on another planet he settled on for a while as well - although he'd done some bookkeeping that let him pass the money off as wages from work on the ship.
He initially set them up running a diner (he'd checked in out, verified that it was workable, bought it and sold it to them through a middleman). They did that well and then after a time (I think 10 years or so) they offered to pay him back what he'd paid for them, plus costs and the wages.
As a counter offer they started a restaurant with Lazarus as a silent partner

I think the last we saw of them they realised that after a couple of decades they'd hardly changed and a) were qualified as Howards and b) were probably descended from Lazarus
>
> I was a high school senior when he wrote TEfL so knew enough genetics
> to fully understand the details without going to the library (which I
> occasionally did when a science fiction writer wrote something I
> didn't understand and I wanted to know whether it was real or made up.
> ("handwaveium"). I didn't know how the slaver managed to do the
> genetic manipulation but figured it would be straightforward 2000
> years from now and understand what had happened without knowing how.

As I remember the story it was cutting edge at the time, and Lazarus wasn't convinced that it was true.

On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 10:34:21 PM UTC+11, Hamish Laws wrote:
> On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 11:14:01 AM UTC+11, Moriarty wrote:
> > On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 10:28:13 AM UTC+11, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > > All four grandparents hitting 100 is a very high bar to cross. Mine
> > > made it to 64, 86, 86, and 88.
> > Mine made it to 27, 68, 82 and 83. The latter three died of heart issues, so I keep an eye on my own health in that area. The first died of being shot by Germans, which is probably not a hereditary condition.
> >
>
> If it happened in 1914-18 there was a reasonable chance of the next generation having a reoccurrence in 39-45

I'm not THAT old. My maternal grandfather died in 1940 at Tobruk. Mum was 3.

-Moriarty

On 03/02/2022 17.41, The Horny Goat wrote:

> Probably right though Heinlein's greatest genetic oddity in my opinion
> was the slave trader who created twins who were genetically unrelated
> since while each parent had 46 chromosomes each child got different 23
> chromosomes from each parent. Meaning of course that because the
> parents between them had 3 X chromosomes and 1 Y their children were
> male and female.
>
> Since the slave trader wanted the biggest financial return he raised
> them as marriage partners from the beginning - and while Heinlein
> hadn't given them children in the story this legally incestuous but
> not genetically incestuous relationship worked out.

I never did figure out how the slave trader thought that he'd get any
money for this long-term project. At least, more money than he'd get
for just any two slaves. What made Joe and Lita unique wasn't visible
to the naked eye and of little benefit to any potential owner.

Who would pay extra for this, and why?

> I'm pretty sure this was in Time Enough for Love where Lazarus Long
> rescued them and financially endowed them so they could live
> independently out of the public eye with a decent standard of living.

That's it. "The Tale of the Twins Who Weren't"

--
Michael F. Stemper
Indians scattered on dawn's highway bleeding;
Ghosts crowd the young child's fragile eggshell mind.

On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 7:55:22 AM UTC+11, Moriarty wrote:
> On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 10:34:21 PM UTC+11, Hamish Laws wrote:
> > On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 11:14:01 AM UTC+11, Moriarty wrote:
> > > On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 10:28:13 AM UTC+11, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > > > All four grandparents hitting 100 is a very high bar to cross. Mine
> > > > made it to 64, 86, 86, and 88.
> > > Mine made it to 27, 68, 82 and 83. The latter three died of heart issues, so I keep an eye on my own health in that area. The first died of being shot by Germans, which is probably not a hereditary condition.
> > >
> >
> > If it happened in 1914-18 there was a reasonable chance of the next generation having a reoccurrence in 39-45
> I'm not THAT old. My maternal grandfather died in 1940 at Tobruk. Mum was 3.

*1941

-Moriarty

On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 3:55:22 PM UTC-5, Moriarty wrote:
> On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 10:34:21 PM UTC+11, Hamish Laws wrote:
> > On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 11:14:01 AM UTC+11, Moriarty wrote:
> > > On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 10:28:13 AM UTC+11, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > > > All four grandparents hitting 100 is a very high bar to cross. Mine
> > > > made it to 64, 86, 86, and 88.
> > > Mine made it to 27, 68, 82 and 83. The latter three died of heart issues, so I keep an eye on my own health in that area. The first died of being shot by Germans, which is probably not a hereditary condition.
> > >
> >
> > If it happened in 1914-18 there was a reasonable chance of the next generation having a reoccurrence in 39-45
> I'm not THAT old. My maternal grandfather died in 1940 at Tobruk. Mum was 3.

It sometimes seems that half the men on our street were in the area at that time - in reality about four. My father didn't enter the theatre until 42.

William Hyde

On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 06:53:38 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 9:46:57 AM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> > In article <5c2cab13-1dd2-4f82...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Default User <defaul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 2:03:13 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > >> "12 Best Mathematical Science Fiction Books" by Dan Livingston
> > >
> > >I read Flatland many years ago.
> > Has anybody here besides me read Dewdney's _The Planiverse_?
> >
> > Three-dimensional humans make contact with two-dimensional people
> > and other critters via one of their computers (written in 1984,
> > so you must think of one of those massive old green-screened
> > CRTs). The humans can communicate with one of the inhabitants.
> > (They can also see his internal organs.)
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Planiverse
> >
> > Wikipedia describes it better than I can. Highly recommended.
>
> I have it. Its really a followup thought experiment to Flatland, and
> has very little mathematical content - rather it speculates about how
> biology and civilization could exist in a 2 dimensional space, on the
> surface of a circular planet with gravity directed to the center of the
> circle.

It was a long time ago. I recall zipper-like fish that don't have to
vomit after every meal, and a wizard who objects strenuously to being
spied on and cuts the connection.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/