On 2022-10-09, Andrew Love <andrewelovejr@msn.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 3:23:10 PM UTC-4, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>> On 08/10/2022 18.36, Andrew Love wrote:
>> > On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 1:11:29 AM UTC-4, Robert Woodward wrote:
>> >
>> >> 2) I have noticed a lack of children in a number of books where the
>> >> presence of children would be an plausible complicating factor.
>> > Actually, now that you mention it, Asimov's The Naked Sun has too many children on Solaria - the number of children on this supposedly population-constant world implies a lifespan not too much different than our own - but supposedly people routinely live over two centuries
>> At the nursery, where Bailey gets shot at? I never thought
>> about it, but yeah, there does seem to be too many rugrats
>> there.
>>
> Yeah. It's the only nursery on the planet, and supposedly they get about 20 new kids a month - and Solaria's population is supposedly stable at 20,000. So they get 250 or so new citizens in a year - which means they must have about 250 deaths in a year, which is not consistent with a lifespan of over 2 centuries (unless a lot of those kids die before they become adults).

I can think of reasonable explanations for that. Eg, the situation is
not steady-state yet: Solaris was discovered only 300 years ago and
became a separate entity 200 years ago. I can see that it might take
50 years before its new citizens agreed on how they were to be
replaced as they died, and then there would need to be a ramping up
stage as most the original citizens were probably of the same age.

What is not explained is how Solaris managed to develop its unique society
in only one generation! All the scientific socialology in the book
was based on generational change, which hasn't happened on Solaris yet.

Chris

On Sun, 9 Oct 2022 13:16:53 -0700 (PDT), Andrew Love
<andrewelovejr@msn.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 12:48:54 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sat, 8 Oct 2022 16:36:22 -0700 (PDT), Andrew Love
>> <andrew...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>> >I've the opposite problem regarding children in at least one case of media science fiction - Star Trek Nemesis has a society of a few hundred or thousand immortals, with dozens of children running around. Something's not right about the demographics there.
>> In a small village containing /all/ the humans on a large planet with
>> plenty of room for expansion.
>
>Checking the Internet, I see that there were only 600 natives in the village, and they'd been on the planet, immortal for several centuries. So unless the initial population was very small, they had a fairly stable population. Maybe it was only recently they decided to have a lot of kids, so they can expand.

Well, they /did/ lose a bunch of them to a rebellion a century (?) or
so earlier. Perhaps the kids are replacements.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Sun, 9 Oct 2022 03:33:31 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

>>A notable example is the Berserker series by Fred Saberhagen, which
>>began in the 1960s.
>
>(Hal Heydt)
>Besides just human chauvanism, there's probably a lot it because
>John W. Campbell liked that sort of thing, and he paid the
>highest rates in the field.

That would be my presumption. I never thought much of his forays into
writing but he definitely put his mark on the genre.

Asimov said several times in various books like "In Memory Still
Green" that he wrote several stories with sale to Campbell directly in
mind.

In article <oru8khdf41uqja0j0htoe8q3ituacefh3f@4ax.com>,
The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>On Sun, 9 Oct 2022 03:33:31 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>wrote:
>
>>>A notable example is the Berserker series by Fred Saberhagen, which
>>>began in the 1960s.
>>
>>(Hal Heydt)
>>Besides just human chauvanism, there's probably a lot it because
>>John W. Campbell liked that sort of thing, and he paid the
>>highest rates in the field.
>
>That would be my presumption. I never thought much of his forays into
>writing but he definitely put his mark on the genre.
>
>Asimov said several times in various books like "In Memory Still
>Green" that he wrote several stories with sale to Campbell directly in
>mind.

(Hal Heydt)
Randall Garrett wrote a song about it, with (if memory serves)
lines like:

Would you rather sell where rates are not so high?
Oh, no, John, no John no.

(Yeah...Randall Garrett wrote filk. Pretty good filk. He did
one that was about Anderson's _Three Hearts and Three Lions_,
subtitled, "A Calypso in search of a rhyme". All the verses
except one in the middle and one at the end are forcced--often
very bad--rhymes. His first wife--Allison--used sing them.)

On Monday, October 10, 2022 at 12:36:53 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> >Checking the Internet, I see that there were only 600 natives in the village, and they'd been on the planet, immortal for several centuries. So unless the initial population was very small, they had a fairly stable population. Maybe it was only recently they decided to have a lot of kids, so they can expand.
> Well, they /did/ lose a bunch of them to a rebellion a century (?) or
> so earlier. Perhaps the kids are replacements.

Now that works as an explanation - thanks.

On Monday, October 10, 2022 at 10:36:34 AM UTC-4, Chris Buckley wrote:
> On 2022-10-09, Andrew Love <andrew...@msn.com> wrote:
> > Yeah. It's the only nursery on the planet, and supposedly they get about 20 new kids a month - and Solaria's population is supposedly stable at 20,000. So they get 250 or so new citizens in a year - which means they must have about 250 deaths in a year, which is not consistent with a lifespan of over 2 centuries (unless a lot of those kids die before they become adults).
> I can think of reasonable explanations for that. Eg, the situation is
> not steady-state yet: Solaris was discovered only 300 years ago and
> became a separate entity 200 years ago. I can see that it might take
> 50 years before its new citizens agreed on how they were to be
> replaced as they died, and then there would need to be a ramping up
> stage as most the original citizens were probably of the same age.
>
Possible, though the book implies that things have been stable for a long time (though it may be only a long time by the standards of Bailey's lifespan, not Gladia's).

> What is not explained is how Solaris managed to develop its unique society
> in only one generation! All the scientific socialology in the book
> was based on generational change, which hasn't happened on Solaris yet.
>
There are a few indications here and there that the Solarians are in denial about various facts about their planet (for example, it's clear that a society with only one or two experts in any one field makes far less progress than a society with hundreds of thousands of collaborating and competing scientists - but the Solarians don't realize that they are being left behind, in sociology and robotics), so it's possible that they believe they've developed a new form of society, when in fact all they've done is a temporary fad by vacationers from a different Space world).

In article <oru8khdf41uqja0j0htoe8q3ituacefh3f@4ax.com>,
The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>On Sun, 9 Oct 2022 03:33:31 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>wrote:
>
>>>A notable example is the Berserker series by Fred Saberhagen, which
>>>began in the 1960s.
>>
>>(Hal Heydt)
>>Besides just human chauvanism, there's probably a lot it because
>>John W. Campbell liked that sort of thing, and he paid the
>>highest rates in the field.
>
>That would be my presumption. I never thought much of his forays into
>writing but he definitely put his mark on the genre.
>
>Asimov said several times in various books like "In Memory Still
>Green" that he wrote several stories with sale to Campbell directly in
>mind.

Next Sunday's review will be of a book I was sure was written
specifically for Campbell, but published by someone else. I
had a beautiful explanation, slain because the dates for
certain events don't line up.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On 10/10/2022 4:26 PM, Andrew Love wrote:
> On Monday, October 10, 2022 at 12:36:53 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>
>>> Checking the Internet, I see that there were only 600 natives in the village, and they'd been on the planet, immortal for several centuries. So unless the initial population was very small, they had a fairly stable population. Maybe it was only recently they decided to have a lot of kids, so they can expand.
>> Well, they /did/ lose a bunch of them to a rebellion a century (?) or
>> so earlier. Perhaps the kids are replacements.
>
> Now that works as an explanation - thanks.

So they have a group of 100 year old kids? ;)

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

The Horny Goat wrote:

>On Sun, 9 Oct 2022 03:33:31 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>wrote:
>
>>>A notable example is the Berserker series by Fred Saberhagen,
>>>which began in the 1960s.
>>
>>(Hal Heydt)
>>Besides just human chauvanism, there's probably a lot it because
>>John W. Campbell liked that sort of thing, and he paid the
>>highest rates in the field.
>
>That would be my presumption. I never thought much of his forays into
>writing but he definitely put his mark on the genre.

I'll point out that the early Berserker stories were not purchased by
Campbell. Fred Pohl bought them for magazines that he was editing. I'm
not sure any were bought by Campbell.

Brian

On 10/10/2022 15.08, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Oct 2022 03:33:31 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Hal Heydt)
> wrote:

>> Besides just human chauvanism, there's probably a lot it because
>> John W. Campbell liked that sort of thing, and he paid the
>> highest rates in the field.
>
> That would be my presumption. I never thought much of his forays into
> writing but he definitely put his mark on the genre.
>
> Asimov said several times in various books like "In Memory Still
> Green" that he wrote several stories with sale to Campbell directly in
> mind.

I had the impression that writing a story aimed at a specific editor
(not necessarily JWC) was a common practice.

--
Michael F. Stemper
If it isn't running programs and it isn't fusing atoms, it's just bending space.

In article <ti2tpa$11q8m$1@dont-email.me>,
Default User <defaultuserbr@yahoo.com> wrote:
>The Horny Goat wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 9 Oct 2022 03:33:31 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>>A notable example is the Berserker series by Fred Saberhagen,
>>>>which began in the 1960s.
>>>
>>>(Hal Heydt)
>>>Besides just human chauvanism, there's probably a lot it because
>>>John W. Campbell liked that sort of thing, and he paid the
>>>highest rates in the field.
>>
>>That would be my presumption. I never thought much of his forays into
>>writing but he definitely put his mark on the genre.
>
>I'll point out that the early Berserker stories were not purchased by
>Campbell. Fred Pohl bought them for magazines that he was editing. I'm
>not sure any were bought by Campbell.

I seem to recall Pohl mentioned Saberhagen and the desirability
of series in his autobiography. (checks books) Yep:

"What Laumer and Saberhagen gave were series stories, really nice
ones. They are the kind of thing that a lucky editor finds under
his Christmas tree, almost as good as a serial at keeping the readers
coming back, not as annoying to the readers who hate having their
stories interrupted a month at a time. Of course, Santa Claus isn't
real, so they don't actually turn up under a tree. You have to coax
them along.
[snip Laumer specific material]

Fred Saberhagen turned up as a brand-new writer with a short chess
puzzle story. I wasn't too crazy about the chess, but as a little
fillip to the background he had thrown in a maniacally murderous,
preprogrammed automatic space battleship which he called a
"berserker." The chess game was only limited fun. The Berserkers were
a great deal of fun; and when I suggested to him what he could make
of them he saw the point at once, and we published a great deal about
them, to the delight of both readers and me."
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Tuesday, October 11, 2022 at 12:09:03 AM UTC-5, Default User wrote:
> The Horny Goat wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 9 Oct 2022 03:33:31 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
> >wrote:
> >
> >>>A notable example is the Berserker series by Fred Saberhagen,
> >>>which began in the 1960s.
> >>
> >>(Hal Heydt)
> >>Besides just human chauvanism, there's probably a lot it because
> >>John W. Campbell liked that sort of thing, and he paid the
> >>highest rates in the field.
> >
> >That would be my presumption. I never thought much of his forays into
> >writing but he definitely put his mark on the genre.
> I'll point out that the early Berserker stories were not purchased by
> Campbell. Fred Pohl bought them for magazines that he was editing. I'm
> not sure any were bought by Campbell.
>
One Berserker story, _Inhuman Error_, was published in _Analog_ but that
was in 1974, when Ben Bova was editor.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

On Mon, 10 Oct 2022 20:48:26 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 10/10/2022 4:26 PM, Andrew Love wrote:
>> On Monday, October 10, 2022 at 12:36:53 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>>
>>>> Checking the Internet, I see that there were only 600 natives in the village, and they'd been on the planet, immortal for several centuries. So unless the initial population was very small, they had a fairly stable population. Maybe it was only recently they decided to have a lot of kids, so they can expand.
>>> Well, they /did/ lose a bunch of them to a rebellion a century (?) or
>>> so earlier. Perhaps the kids are replacements.
>>
>> Now that works as an explanation - thanks.
>
>So they have a group of 100 year old kids? ;)

No, no -- it just took a while to decide to produce them. Maybe.

The real story (if one ever existed) could be something else entirely,
who can say?
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Sat, 8 Oct 2022 16:36:22 -0700 (PDT), Andrew Love
<andrewelovejr@msn.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 1:11:29 AM UTC-4, Robert Woodward wrote:
>
>> 2) I have noticed a lack of children in a number of books where the
>> presence of children would be an plausible complicating factor.
>>
>
>I've the opposite problem regarding children in at least one case of media science fiction - Star Trek Nemesis has a society of a few hundred or thousand immortals, with dozens of children running around. Something's not right about the demographics there.

ITYM "Star Trek: Insurrection"

--
Jerry Brown

A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)

On Tuesday, October 11, 2022 at 1:09:03 AM UTC-4, Default User wrote:
> The Horny Goat wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 9 Oct 2022 03:33:31 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
> >wrote:
> >
> >>>A notable example is the Berserker series by Fred Saberhagen,
> >>>which began in the 1960s.
> >>
> >>(Hal Heydt)
> >>Besides just human chauvanism, there's probably a lot it because
> >>John W. Campbell liked that sort of thing, and he paid the
> >>highest rates in the field.
> >
> >That would be my presumption. I never thought much of his forays into
> >writing but he definitely put his mark on the genre.
> I'll point out that the early Berserker stories were not purchased by
> Campbell. Fred Pohl bought them for magazines that he was editing. I'm
> not sure any were bought by Campbell.

All of the berserker short stories were published by Pohl, mostly in If but
at least one in another magazine Pohl edited. I don't think Saberhagen
would have tried to sell them elsewhere.

Pohl created If as the field was recovering from the late 50s downturn. He
intended it as a place for new authors to break into the field, and established
authors to try something new, that might not fit with the three established
magazines. Saberhagen was his first success.

William Hyde

On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 6:11:29 AM UTC+1, Robert Woodward wrote:
> There are times, when reading a Science Fiction or Fantasy story, I come
> across something that threatens to take me out of the story. For example:
>
> 1) Human empires (interstellar in SF, otherwise in Fantasy) that are
> many centuries old. Generally speaking, empires on Earth have lasted 2
> or 3 centuries. There are outliers (e.g., a few don't survive the death
> of their founding conqueror and then there is Rome which is an extreme
> outlier in the other direction). There are reasons this happens and I
> can not see why those reasons wouldn't apply to an interstellar empire
> (note that if human lifespans are increased by a factor of say 5, then
> perhaps empires could last a millennium).
>
> 2) I have noticed a lack of children in a number of books where the
> presence of children would be an plausible complicating factor.
>
> --
> "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
> Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
> ã-----------------------------------------------------
> Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com
Based on the promo at the end of https://monsterhunternation.com/2022/09/28/writerdojo-s3-ep12-interview-with-a-completely-different-vampire/ and the free Amazon sample, I intend to buy "against all odds" shortly. It is sold as Honor Harrington style MilSF (although the POV character in the sample is mail), it looks pretty derivative, and I will be surprised if it doesn't have a number of scientific absurdities, starting with FTL and whatever it decides to do about the presence or not of AI. I look forward to an entertaining read regardless. All hail my willing suspension of disbelief!

In article <ti2p27$11hts$1@dont-email.me>,
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>On 10/10/2022 4:26 PM, Andrew Love wrote:
>> On Monday, October 10, 2022 at 12:36:53 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>>
>>>> Checking the Internet, I see that there were only 600 natives
>in the village, and they'd been on the planet, immortal for
>several centuries. So unless the initial population was very
>small, they had a fairly stable population. Maybe it was only
>recently they decided to have a lot of kids, so they can expand.
>>> Well, they /did/ lose a bunch of them to a rebellion a century (?) or
>>> so earlier. Perhaps the kids are replacements.
>>
>> Now that works as an explanation - thanks.
>
>So they have a group of 100 year old kids? ;)
>
I was in a TTRPG campaign that had very old young
people. The elves had been under the impression that
they were immortal and thus needed no children. On
discovering they were only very long lived, they
produced the next generation in a panic. By the time
the campaign was set, those children had hit adolescence.
Alas, it turned out elvish adolescence is just as extended
as their lifespans so the city had centuries of
surly, poorly behaved elf youths to look forward
to.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Tuesday, October 11, 2022 at 1:10:50 PM UTC-4, Jerry Brown wrote:

> >I've the opposite problem regarding children in at least one case of media science fiction - Star Trek Nemesis has a society of a few hundred or thousand immortals, with dozens of children running around. Something's not right about the demographics there.
> ITYM "Star Trek: Insurrection"

Yep. Thanks for catching that.

On Tuesday, 11 October 2022 at 04:48:28 UTC+1, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 4:26 PM, Andrew Love wrote:
> > On Monday, October 10, 2022 at 12:36:53 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> >
> >>> Checking the Internet, I see that there were only 600 natives in the village, and they'd been on the planet, immortal for several centuries. So unless the initial population was very small, they had a fairly stable population. Maybe it was only recently they decided to have a lot of kids, so they can expand.
> >> Well, they /did/ lose a bunch of them to a rebellion a century (?) or
> >> so earlier. Perhaps the kids are replacements.
> >
> > Now that works as an explanation - thanks.
> So they have a group of 100 year old kids? ;)

Miri comes over to babysit :-)

James Nicoll wrote:

>Fred Saberhagen turned up as a brand-new writer with a short chess
>puzzle story.

As I recall, the game was a simplified form of checkers. Anyway, given
the number of stories Pohl read over his life, glossing over the
details isn't too surprising.

The semi-intelligent species from that story was never mentioned again
to my recollection, nor the brain-scrambling field or whatever. "Early
episode weirdness" and all that.

Brian

On 10/11/2022 7:36 PM, Default User wrote:
> James Nicoll wrote:
>
>> Fred Saberhagen turned up as a brand-new writer with a short chess
>> puzzle story.
>
> As I recall, the game was a simplified form of checkers.

I'm afraid to ask how one simplifies checkers....

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 08:27:49 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
<michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> Besides just human chauvanism, there's probably a lot it because
>>> John W. Campbell liked that sort of thing, and he paid the
>>> highest rates in the field.
>>
>> That would be my presumption. I never thought much of his forays into
>> writing but he definitely put his mark on the genre.
>>
>> Asimov said several times in various books like "In Memory Still
>> Green" that he wrote several stories with sale to Campbell directly in
>> mind.
>
>I had the impression that writing a story aimed at a specific editor
>(not necessarily JWC) was a common practice.
>
Yep - but JWC was the king of them - at least when he was in his prime

On Tuesday, October 11, 2022 at 9:10:39 PM UTC-6, Dimensional Traveler wrote:

> I'm afraid to ask how one simplifies checkers....

The most obvious way would be to go from the "jeu forcé" to the "jeu plaisant";
remove the rule that captures are compulsory.

The applicable section of the story reads:

(begin quote)
"We will radio our moves to one another," said the berserker equably. It went
on to describe a checkers-like game, played on a smaller board with less
than the usual number of pieces. There was nothing very profound about it:
but of course, playing would seem to require a functional brain, human or electronic,
able to plan and to predict.
(end quote)

John Savard

On Monday, October 10, 2022 at 4:01:53 PM UTC-6, Hal Heydt wrote:

> Randall Garrett wrote a song about it, with (if memory serves)
> lines like:
>
> Would you rather sell where rates are not so high?
> Oh, no, John, no John no.

I remember the last time someone mentioned it, I looked it
up, and so here it is again in all its glory:

On yonder hill there stands a building
And upon the fourteenth floor
Stands a group of authors moaning
As they’ve never moaned before
Oh, No, John, No John, No, John, No.

There in a manner quite pontific
Speaks the Master from on high.
“Slaves are better off than free men,
Surely you can all see why.”
Oh, No, John, No John, No, John, No.

“There are supermen among us;
We must now discover psi,”
Says the Master; and the authors
Groan in agony and cry;
Oh, No, John, No John, No, John, No.

“Well, then,” said the Master, smiling,
Since my gospel you deny,
Would you rather sell to others,
Where the rates are not so high?”
OH NO JOHN. NO, JOHN. NO JOHN. NO.

John Savard

On Wednesday, October 12, 2022 at 7:31:25 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

> I remember the last time someone mentioned it, I looked it
> up, and so here it is again in all its glory:

It wasn't just anyone - as I should have expected, it was
your late wife.

John Savard