On 12/1/22 12:33 PM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> John W Kennedy <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> schrieb:
>> On 11/29/22 12:10 PM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 11:08:29 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
>>> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>>> news:qfr9oh1ghvqo1husle7uiu7drko9pq2gao@4ax.com:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 27 Nov 2022 18:30:23 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
>>>>> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote in
>>>>>> news:huNgL.314169$Mlk.253947@fx17.iad:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 26 Nov 2022 17:26:44 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott
>>>>>>>> Lurndal) wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 15:36:29 -0500, John W Kennedy
>>>>>>>>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Badly written software - or simply badly /conceived/
>>>>>>>>>>>>> software - can kill any CPU.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That's /always/ the excuse when the big promises turn out
>>>>>>>>>>>> to be, at best, overly optimistic.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I seem to recall that the theory was that no such
>>>>>>>>>>>> software could possibly exist with the new OSes.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Huh? ARM isn’t an OS; it’s a RISC architecture.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It was claimed that the associated OSes would never lose
>>>>>>>>>> anything. IIRC.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Claimed by whom?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The people making the promises about RISC. IIRC.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This was, what, 30 years ago? 25? Details fade.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've been in the hardware and OS side of the business for
>>>>>>> longer than that, and worked on and OS for the early RISC
>>>>>>> processor from Motrola, the 88100. I've never heard such a
>>>>>>> claim about "OS never loosing anything"[*].
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is the RISC proponents who were making these predictions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You'll need to find some citations to support your memory.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The claims about RISC have always been around the simplicity
>>>>>>> of the hardware providing a path to easier and less
>>>>>>> expensive implementation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suspect that, as an industry insider, you've seen technical
>>>>>> claims by technical people, and he's seen marketing claims by
>>>>>> marketing "people".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And you know how accurate marketing claims are.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think both points are quite possible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Although some of it may have come from articles in BYTE or DDJ.
>>>>> So perhaps "enthusiasts" rather than "marketing".
>>>>
>>>> Entusiasts are simply parroting the marketing spiel.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure that was the case. There were, and probably still are, a
>>> /lot/ of people who really really hate segmented architectures and
>>> Windows. The marketing campaign was much, much tamer.
>>>
>>> BTW, has anyone else noticed this interesting progression:
>>> 1) A claim is reported that RISC processors will take over the world.
>>
>> Apart from legacy architectures dating back to the 60s or 70s, haven’t
>> they?
>
> Well, yes and no - it is very much a matter of debate.
>
> Old systems (like almost all versions of the /360, the VAX, the
> Motorola 6800 or the DG Eclipse/MV of "The Soul of a New Machine"
> fame ) used static microcode, where each instruction was split into
> one or several microcode instructions, which were then executed.
>
> The original RISC designs were, in a way, machines which exposed
> the microcode directly to the user. At least the 801 was indeed
> used as such, to run a /370 (I believe).

The IBM JRD article compared the performance of the 801 to—a 165, I
think—one of the almost-an-85 models at any rate—but they talk about it
as a target for production programs written in a PL/I derivative. (They
were, by the way, rather astonished that they could breadboard a machine
that could beat a water-cooled monster.)

> They also used pipeplining
> on their instructions to gain performance. They also (usually) had
> one cycle per instruction, later versions had superscalar execution,
> out-of-order execution and whatnot.
>
> Today's CISC designs like the different AMD64 versions out there
> first translate their CICS instructions into micro-ops (microcode,
> if you will), which they then pipeline, schedule out-of-order
> and whatnot.
>
> A relatively pure RISC design like the POWER still has many
> instructions as a single micro-instructions, others are cracked
> into two. I believe RISC-V is designed so that it is a relatively
> pure RISC, and each instruction is designed so it more or
> less can be implemented directly. Of course, they advertise
> for instruction fusion for things they left out.
>
> So... has RISC taken over the world? You could argue as well that
> microcode (not static, but instructions that can be scheduled)
> rules supreme in x86-world. This is slightly at variance with
> the definition of microcode as it is used now (which is static
> RAM the same sort of micro-ops that the main engine uses).
>
>> And even the current implementations of z/Architecture are
>> implemented mostly as RISC, with a minority of opcodes invisibly
>> implemented in software using the hardware opcodes (a paradigm that
>> actually goes back to the S/360-44).
>
> That is _really_ hard to define. IIRC, the hardware runs a superset
> of a subset of the instructions that the programmer sees, and they
> use millicode (executing one machine instructions via several
> other machine instructions of the same format, but with some additional
> ones available which the programmer cannot use).
>
> Backwards compatibility to the mid-1960s comes at a price...

--
John W. Kennedy
Algernon Burbage, Lord Roderick, Father Martin, Bishop Baldwin,
King Pellinore, Captain Bailey, Merlin -- A Kingdom for a Stage!

In article <c4q9oh5cfddg5j9464g6p4flc7io1ddqca@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>Returning for a moment from the more extreme parts of the argument,
>allow me to point out that secure sites, secure transactions, and
>secure emails are for protecting things that would cause damage if
>revealed /today/ but which are unlikely to matter if somehow worked
>out five years from now. They are intended for financial transactions,
>not protection from the NSA.

(Hal Heydt)
The same is true in military encryption, especially under field
conditions in an actual war. Hence devising different encryption
systems for differ uses, ranging from the US use of Navaho Code
Talkers (which depended on both their native language and American
slang) to one time pads (beloved by the Soviet Union so much
that, because they were hand compiled, they weren't always random
enough to resist being broken).

The primary German encryption system (Enigma) had the problem
that is was over used, thus providing more messages making it
easier to solve. Their Navy had the problem late in the war that
they assumed that the U-505 had been sunk, rather than being
captured with is code key book intact. Lead covers don't help if
you neglect to toss the book overboard in your haste to get off
the sub.

In article <i8r9oh5313imsoa485uf7q87gp0ajarc14@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>n Sun, 27 Nov 2022 21:35:09 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <tlhr3e$3nihq$2@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
>>Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>>An iPad has 3GB RAM these days, it is astonishing that serious
>>>business work can be done in a 2GB address space. But I suspect
>>>that many applications come from earlier times, when 2GB was
>>>luxury undreamt of.
>>
>>(Hal Heydt)
>>Raspberry Pi 4 Model B comes with up to 8GB. I run the DunDraCon
>>con reg on a pair (replicated database) of 4GB models. I used to
>>run it on 1GB SBCs. The shift was because the Pi4B finally got
>>fast enough I/O to suit me. Con reg kind of rattles around loose
>>with that much RAM. I suspect that MariaDB just sucks the entire
>>database into memory.
>
>My HP Envy has 12GB (IIRC, the HP Pavilion has 8GB).

(Hal Heydt)
Ah...but do either of those machines sell for $55? (Ganted,
that's without PSU, keyboard, mouse/tracball, mass storage
device, cables, or monitor. But with a KVM switch, some of that
can be shared. Since I'm using 120GB SSDs for mass storage, the
*total* outlay for each Pi4B-4 is right about $100 since I
already had some of the required devices on hand.)

djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:rMC1IG.23q6@kithrup.com:

> In article <i8r9oh5313imsoa485uf7q87gp0ajarc14@4ax.com>,
> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>n Sun, 27 Nov 2022 21:35:09 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>>Heydt) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <tlhr3e$3nihq$2@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
>>>Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>>>An iPad has 3GB RAM these days, it is astonishing that serious
>>>>business work can be done in a 2GB address space. But I
>>>>suspect that many applications come from earlier times, when
>>>>2GB was luxury undreamt of.
>>>
>>>(Hal Heydt)
>>>Raspberry Pi 4 Model B comes with up to 8GB. I run the
>>>DunDraCon con reg on a pair (replicated database) of 4GB
>>>models. I used to run it on 1GB SBCs. The shift was because
>>>the Pi4B finally got fast enough I/O to suit me. Con reg kind
>>>of rattles around loose with that much RAM. I suspect that
>>>MariaDB just sucks the entire database into memory.
>>
>>My HP Envy has 12GB (IIRC, the HP Pavilion has 8GB).
>
> (Hal Heydt)
> Ah...but do either of those machines sell for $55? (Ganted,
> that's without PSU, keyboard, mouse/tracball, mass storage
> device, cables, or monitor. But with a KVM switch, some of that
> can be shared. Since I'm using 120GB SSDs for mass storage, the
> *total* outlay for each Pi4B-4 is right about $100 since I
> already had some of the required devices on hand.)
>
Complete kits start under $200, and prices in the last couple of
years have been *outrageiously* high. They'll come back down
eventually, to probably 2/3 of that or less.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

In article <80fcohdrjkbg26f4r6m5fsled7hknqka5n@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 11:08:29 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
><taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>news:qfr9oh1ghvqo1husle7uiu7drko9pq2gao@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Sun, 27 Nov 2022 18:30:23 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
>>> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote in
>>>>news:huNgL.314169$Mlk.253947@fx17.iad:
>>>>
>>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>>>>On Sat, 26 Nov 2022 17:26:44 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott
>>>>>>Lurndal) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>>>>>>On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 15:36:29 -0500, John W Kennedy
>>>>>>>><john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Badly written software - or simply badly /conceived/
>>>>>>>>>>> software - can kill any CPU.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That's /always/ the excuse when the big promises turn out
>>>>>>>>>> to be, at best, overly optimistic.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I seem to recall that the theory was that no such
>>>>>>>>>> software could possibly exist with the new OSes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Huh? ARM isn�t an OS; it�s a RISC architecture.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It was claimed that the associated OSes would never lose
>>>>>>>>anything. IIRC.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Claimed by whom?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The people making the promises about RISC. IIRC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This was, what, 30 years ago? 25? Details fade.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been in the hardware and OS side of the business for
>>>>> longer than that, and worked on and OS for the early RISC
>>>>> processor from Motrola, the 88100. I've never heard such a
>>>>> claim about "OS never loosing anything"[*].
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>It is the RISC proponents who were making these predictions.
>>>>>
>>>>> You'll need to find some citations to support your memory.
>>>>>
>>>>> The claims about RISC have always been around the simplicity
>>>>> of the hardware providing a path to easier and less
>>>>> expensive implementation.
>>>>>
>>>>I suspect that, as an industry insider, you've seen technical
>>>>claims by technical people, and he's seen marketing claims by
>>>>marketing "people".
>>>>
>>>>And you know how accurate marketing claims are.
>>>
>>> I think both points are quite possible.
>>>
>>> Although some of it may have come from articles in BYTE or DDJ.
>>> So perhaps "enthusiasts" rather than "marketing".
>>
>>Entusiasts are simply parroting the marketing spiel.
>
>I'm not sure that was the case. There were, and probably still are, a
>/lot/ of people who really really hate segmented architectures and
>Windows. The marketing campaign was much, much tamer.
>
>BTW, has anyone else noticed this interesting progression:
>1) A claim is reported that RISC processors will take over the world.
>2) I point out that this same claim was made 25 (say) years ago, and
>it didn't happen.
>3) Others claim that modern "segmented" processors are really RISC
>processors which mimic segmentation so the software will run.
>
>Which, of course, leads to the question:
>
>If RISC processors have /already/ taken over the world, why was the
>new prediction made at all?
>
>I suspect that, as always, we have long-since descended into semantic
>mush.

(Hal Heydt)
In a sense...RISC (in the form of ARM designs) *has* taken over
the world. Compare the annual sales of desktop and laptop sales
(mostly x86, Intel and AMD) against the sales of tablets and
"smart" phones (almost exclusively ARM/ARM-derived RISC designs).

Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> schrieb:

> (Hal Heydt)
> In a sense...RISC (in the form of ARM designs) *has* taken over
> the world. Compare the annual sales of desktop and laptop sales
> (mostly x86, Intel and AMD) against the sales of tablets and
> "smart" phones (almost exclusively ARM/ARM-derived RISC designs).

And now for the discussion if an architecture with 12000 pages of
manual can be called "reduced" in any meaningful way :-)

I have the Motorola 6800 handbook from 1979 upstairs, it's rather
thin.

On Sat, 3 Dec 2022 20:42:16 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

>In article <i8r9oh5313imsoa485uf7q87gp0ajarc14@4ax.com>,
>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>n Sun, 27 Nov 2022 21:35:09 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In article <tlhr3e$3nihq$2@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
>>>Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>>>An iPad has 3GB RAM these days, it is astonishing that serious
>>>>business work can be done in a 2GB address space. But I suspect
>>>>that many applications come from earlier times, when 2GB was
>>>>luxury undreamt of.
>>>
>>>(Hal Heydt)
>>>Raspberry Pi 4 Model B comes with up to 8GB. I run the DunDraCon
>>>con reg on a pair (replicated database) of 4GB models. I used to
>>>run it on 1GB SBCs. The shift was because the Pi4B finally got
>>>fast enough I/O to suit me. Con reg kind of rattles around loose
>>>with that much RAM. I suspect that MariaDB just sucks the entire
>>>database into memory.
>>
>>My HP Envy has 12GB (IIRC, the HP Pavilion has 8GB).
>
>(Hal Heydt)
>Ah...but do either of those machines sell for $55? (Ganted,
>that's without PSU, keyboard, mouse/tracball, mass storage
>device, cables, or monitor. But with a KVM switch, some of that
>can be shared. Since I'm using 120GB SSDs for mass storage, the
>*total* outlay for each Pi4B-4 is right about $100 since I
>already had some of the required devices on hand.)

Of course not.

Even though I bought a desktop version [1] through Office Depot at a
discount. (This had two video outputs, DVI and VGA, rather than one
HDMI. As it happened, my existing monitors were both VGA, but one of
them had a DVI port and even included a DVI cable. OTOH, I had no
choice between wired and wireless mouse/keyboard; I got wireless and
so kept the existing trackball/keyboard.)

[1] It has been a while since I checked but, at least at one time, a
/portable/ version of the HP Envy existed -- at a much higher price
than the HP Pavilion I eventually bought or the desktop HP Envy.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On 12/4/22 7:45 AM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> schrieb:
>
>> (Hal Heydt)
>> In a sense...RISC (in the form of ARM designs) *has* taken over
>> the world. Compare the annual sales of desktop and laptop sales
>> (mostly x86, Intel and AMD) against the sales of tablets and
>> "smart" phones (almost exclusively ARM/ARM-derived RISC designs).
>
> And now for the discussion if an architecture with 12000 pages of
> manual can be called "reduced" in any meaningful way :-)
>
> I have the Motorola 6800 handbook from 1979 upstairs, it's rather
> thin.

All that proves is that not all architectures are documented in the same
detail. The most complex instructions that I know of in ARM are Load
Multiple and Store Multiple. Have you looked at any recent edition of
z/Architecture Principles of Operation?

--
John W. Kennedy
Algernon Burbage, Lord Roderick, Father Martin, Bishop Baldwin,
King Pellinore, Captain Bailey, Merlin -- A Kingdom for a Stage!

On 04/12/2022 23:45, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> schrieb:
>
>> (Hal Heydt)
>> In a sense...RISC (in the form of ARM designs) *has* taken over
>> the world. Compare the annual sales of desktop and laptop sales
>> (mostly x86, Intel and AMD) against the sales of tablets and
>> "smart" phones (almost exclusively ARM/ARM-derived RISC designs).
>
> And now for the discussion if an architecture with 12000 pages of
> manual can be called "reduced" in any meaningful way :-)
>
> I have the Motorola 6800 handbook from 1979 upstairs, it's rather
> thin.
And somewhere in a box I have the same for the M88000 - it's two
volumes. :-)

Cheers,
Gary B-)

John W Kennedy <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> writes:
>On 12/4/22 7:45 AM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> schrieb:
>>
>>> (Hal Heydt)
>>> In a sense...RISC (in the form of ARM designs) *has* taken over
>>> the world. Compare the annual sales of desktop and laptop sales
>>> (mostly x86, Intel and AMD) against the sales of tablets and
>>> "smart" phones (almost exclusively ARM/ARM-derived RISC designs).
>>
>> And now for the discussion if an architecture with 12000 pages of
>> manual can be called "reduced" in any meaningful way :-)
>>
>> I have the Motorola 6800 handbook from 1979 upstairs, it's rather
>> thin.
>
>All that proves is that not all architectures are documented in the same
>detail. The most complex instructions that I know of in ARM are Load
>Multiple and Store Multiple.

You haven't been paying attention. ARM processors support three distinct
instructions sets (T32, A32, A64). The A64 set includes three distinct
SIMD instruction sets (NEON, SVE, SME). The A64 set inclues instructions
for memory tagging, for pointer authentication, for cryptography, for
data movement (instructions to implement memcpy and memset), in addition
to the normal integer data and bit manipulation instructions.

And the total documentation for the latest ARM processors runs to well
more than 20,000 pages when the interrupt controller, IOMMU and coresight
(external JTAG debug) deocumentation is included.

"Gary R. Schmidt" <grschmidt@acm.org> writes:
>On 04/12/2022 23:45, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> schrieb:
>>
>>> (Hal Heydt)
>>> In a sense...RISC (in the form of ARM designs) *has* taken over
>>> the world. Compare the annual sales of desktop and laptop sales
>>> (mostly x86, Intel and AMD) against the sales of tablets and
>>> "smart" phones (almost exclusively ARM/ARM-derived RISC designs).
>>
>> And now for the discussion if an architecture with 12000 pages of
>> manual can be called "reduced" in any meaningful way :-)
>>
>> I have the Motorola 6800 handbook from 1979 upstairs, it's rather
>> thin.
>And somewhere in a box I have the same for the M88000 - it's two
>volumes. :-)

The original 88100 manual was a single volume for the processor
and a second for the 88200 (MMU).

John W Kennedy <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> schrieb:
> On 12/4/22 7:45 AM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> schrieb:
>>
>>> (Hal Heydt)
>>> In a sense...RISC (in the form of ARM designs) *has* taken over
>>> the world. Compare the annual sales of desktop and laptop sales
>>> (mostly x86, Intel and AMD) against the sales of tablets and
>>> "smart" phones (almost exclusively ARM/ARM-derived RISC designs).
>>
>> And now for the discussion if an architecture with 12000 pages of
>> manual can be called "reduced" in any meaningful way :-)
>>
>> I have the Motorola 6800 handbook from 1979 upstairs, it's rather
>> thin.
>
> All that proves is that not all architectures are documented in the same
> detail. The most complex instructions that I know of in ARM are Load
> Multiple and Store Multiple.

Not in the 64-bit version of ARM (aka ARMv8). Take a look at their
vector instructions one day, like (random grab) UQRSHL.

On Monday, 5 December 2022 at 22:16:58 UTC, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> John W Kennedy <john.w....@gmail.com> schrieb:
> > On 12/4/22 7:45 AM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> >> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> schrieb:
> >>
> >>> (Hal Heydt)
> >>> In a sense...RISC (in the form of ARM designs) *has* taken over
> >>> the world. Compare the annual sales of desktop and laptop sales
> >>> (mostly x86, Intel and AMD) against the sales of tablets and
> >>> "smart" phones (almost exclusively ARM/ARM-derived RISC designs).
> >>
> >> And now for the discussion if an architecture with 12000 pages of
> >> manual can be called "reduced" in any meaningful way :-)
> >>
> >> I have the Motorola 6800 handbook from 1979 upstairs, it's rather
> >> thin.
> >
> > All that proves is that not all architectures are documented in the same
> > detail. The most complex instructions that I know of in ARM are Load
> > Multiple and Store Multiple.
> Not in the 64-bit version of ARM (aka ARMv8). Take a look at their
> vector instructions one day, like (random grab) UQRSHL.

Is this actually still "RISC"?

If it isn't, then would RISC be better?

On 06/12/2022 01:19, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> "Gary R. Schmidt" <grschmidt@acm.org> writes:
>> On 04/12/2022 23:45, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> schrieb:
>>>
>>>> (Hal Heydt)
>>>> In a sense...RISC (in the form of ARM designs) *has* taken over
>>>> the world. Compare the annual sales of desktop and laptop sales
>>>> (mostly x86, Intel and AMD) against the sales of tablets and
>>>> "smart" phones (almost exclusively ARM/ARM-derived RISC designs).
>>>
>>> And now for the discussion if an architecture with 12000 pages of
>>> manual can be called "reduced" in any meaningful way :-)
>>>
>>> I have the Motorola 6800 handbook from 1979 upstairs, it's rather
>>> thin.
>> And somewhere in a box I have the same for the M88000 - it's two
>> volumes. :-)
>
> The original 88100 manual was a single volume for the processor
> and a second for the 88200 (MMU).
>
Mayhap that's what I'm remembering - it's not like I've looked at them
in the last thirty-odd years!

Cheers,
Gary B-)

Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> writes:
>On Monday, 5 December 2022 at 22:16:58 UTC, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>> John W Kennedy <john.w....@gmail.com> schrieb:
>> > On 12/4/22 7:45 AM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>> >> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> schrieb:
>> >>
>> >>> (Hal Heydt)
>> >>> In a sense...RISC (in the form of ARM designs) *has* taken over
>> >>> the world. Compare the annual sales of desktop and laptop sales
>> >>> (mostly x86, Intel and AMD) against the sales of tablets and
>> >>> "smart" phones (almost exclusively ARM/ARM-derived RISC designs).
>> >>
>> >> And now for the discussion if an architecture with 12000 pages of
>> >> manual can be called "reduced" in any meaningful way :-)
>> >>
>> >> I have the Motorola 6800 handbook from 1979 upstairs, it's rather
>> >> thin.
>> >
>> > All that proves is that not all architectures are documented in the same
>> > detail. The most complex instructions that I know of in ARM are Load
>> > Multiple and Store Multiple.
>> Not in the 64-bit version of ARM (aka ARMv8). Take a look at their
>> vector instructions one day, like (random grab) UQRSHL.
>
>Is this actually still "RISC"?

That depends on your definition of RISC, which today
isn't the same as it was in 1985.

Note that ARM64 has had a lot of features added since
the first generation a decade ago. For the most part,
these features were requested by customers and stakeholders.

In article <XnsAF628BD7D2E8taustincagmailcom@85.12.62.232>,
Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
>news:rMC1IG.23q6@kithrup.com:
>
>> In article <i8r9oh5313imsoa485uf7q87gp0ajarc14@4ax.com>,
>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>n Sun, 27 Nov 2022 21:35:09 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>>>Heydt) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <tlhr3e$3nihq$2@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
>>>>Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>>>>An iPad has 3GB RAM these days, it is astonishing that serious
>>>>>business work can be done in a 2GB address space. But I
>>>>>suspect that many applications come from earlier times, when
>>>>>2GB was luxury undreamt of.
>>>>
>>>>(Hal Heydt)
>>>>Raspberry Pi 4 Model B comes with up to 8GB. I run the
>>>>DunDraCon con reg on a pair (replicated database) of 4GB
>>>>models. I used to run it on 1GB SBCs. The shift was because
>>>>the Pi4B finally got fast enough I/O to suit me. Con reg kind
>>>>of rattles around loose with that much RAM. I suspect that
>>>>MariaDB just sucks the entire database into memory.
>>>
>>>My HP Envy has 12GB (IIRC, the HP Pavilion has 8GB).
>>
>> (Hal Heydt)
>> Ah...but do either of those machines sell for $55? (Ganted,
>> that's without PSU, keyboard, mouse/tracball, mass storage
>> device, cables, or monitor. But with a KVM switch, some of that
>> can be shared. Since I'm using 120GB SSDs for mass storage, the
>> *total* outlay for each Pi4B-4 is right about $100 since I
>> already had some of the required devices on hand.)
>>
>Complete kits start under $200, and prices in the last couple of
>years have been *outrageiously* high. They'll come back down
>eventually, to probably 2/3 of that or less.

(Hal Heydt)
Depends on how you buy them. If you go on FleaBay or the like,
yes, you'll pay way over list. If you stick to the authorized
resellers, then you get the RPF parts (SBC, case, video cable,
PSU) for list price.

The current problem is that, like every other electronics
manufacturer on the planet, Pis have been adversely affected by
COVID-induced supply chain disruptions. The RPTL folks have been
open and up-front about the issues, and how they are working to
deal with them. They have give some priority to commercial
customers so as to minimize the adverse impact of shortages on
employment. The rest go into the retail channels--where, due to
high demand and limited supply--they sell out practically as fast
as they can be delivered.

What the RPTL has *not* done is respond to these pressures by
raising list price (with one, very minor, exception). So *if*
you can find a Pi in stock at an authorized reseller, you can buy
it at list price (plus the usual local taxes and shipping).

djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:rMKzJL.1nuE@kithrup.com:

> In article <XnsAF628BD7D2E8taustincagmailcom@85.12.62.232>,
> Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
>>news:rMC1IG.23q6@kithrup.com:
>>
>>> In article <i8r9oh5313imsoa485uf7q87gp0ajarc14@4ax.com>,
>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>n Sun, 27 Nov 2022 21:35:09 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy
>>>>J Heydt) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article <tlhr3e$3nihq$2@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
>>>>>Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>>>>>An iPad has 3GB RAM these days, it is astonishing that
>>>>>>serious business work can be done in a 2GB address space.
>>>>>>But I suspect that many applications come from earlier
>>>>>>times, when 2GB was luxury undreamt of.
>>>>>
>>>>>(Hal Heydt)
>>>>>Raspberry Pi 4 Model B comes with up to 8GB. I run the
>>>>>DunDraCon con reg on a pair (replicated database) of 4GB
>>>>>models. I used to run it on 1GB SBCs. The shift was because
>>>>>the Pi4B finally got fast enough I/O to suit me. Con reg
>>>>>kind of rattles around loose with that much RAM. I suspect
>>>>>that MariaDB just sucks the entire database into memory.
>>>>
>>>>My HP Envy has 12GB (IIRC, the HP Pavilion has 8GB).
>>>
>>> (Hal Heydt)
>>> Ah...but do either of those machines sell for $55? (Ganted,
>>> that's without PSU, keyboard, mouse/tracball, mass storage
>>> device, cables, or monitor. But with a KVM switch, some of
>>> that can be shared. Since I'm using 120GB SSDs for mass
>>> storage, the *total* outlay for each Pi4B-4 is right about
>>> $100 since I already had some of the required devices on
>>> hand.)
>>>
>>Complete kits start under $200, and prices in the last couple of
>>years have been *outrageiously* high. They'll come back down
>>eventually, to probably 2/3 of that or less.
>
> (Hal Heydt)
> Depends on how you buy them. If you go on FleaBay or the like,
> yes, you'll pay way over list. If you stick to the authorized
> resellers, then you get the RPF parts (SBC, case, video cable,
> PSU) for list price.
>
If you can find them. Therein lies the problem.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

In article <suipohtuhgss9ttkksqmhcve9dt0iigtsg@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Sat, 3 Dec 2022 20:42:16 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <i8r9oh5313imsoa485uf7q87gp0ajarc14@4ax.com>,
>>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>n Sun, 27 Nov 2022 21:35:09 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <tlhr3e$3nihq$2@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
>>>>Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>>>>An iPad has 3GB RAM these days, it is astonishing that serious
>>>>>business work can be done in a 2GB address space. But I suspect
>>>>>that many applications come from earlier times, when 2GB was
>>>>>luxury undreamt of.
>>>>
>>>>(Hal Heydt)
>>>>Raspberry Pi 4 Model B comes with up to 8GB. I run the DunDraCon
>>>>con reg on a pair (replicated database) of 4GB models. I used to
>>>>run it on 1GB SBCs. The shift was because the Pi4B finally got
>>>>fast enough I/O to suit me. Con reg kind of rattles around loose
>>>>with that much RAM. I suspect that MariaDB just sucks the entire
>>>>database into memory.
>>>
>>>My HP Envy has 12GB (IIRC, the HP Pavilion has 8GB).
>>
>>(Hal Heydt)
>>Ah...but do either of those machines sell for $55? (Ganted,
>>that's without PSU, keyboard, mouse/tracball, mass storage
>>device, cables, or monitor. But with a KVM switch, some of that
>>can be shared. Since I'm using 120GB SSDs for mass storage, the
>>*total* outlay for each Pi4B-4 is right about $100 since I
>>already had some of the required devices on hand.)
>
>Of course not.
>
>Even though I bought a desktop version [1] through Office Depot at a
>discount. (This had two video outputs, DVI and VGA, rather than one
>HDMI. As it happened, my existing monitors were both VGA, but one of
>them had a DVI port and even included a DVI cable. OTOH, I had no
>choice between wired and wireless mouse/keyboard; I got wireless and
>so kept the existing trackball/keyboard.)
>
>[1] It has been a while since I checked but, at least at one time, a
>/portable/ version of the HP Envy existed -- at a much higher price
>than the HP Pavilion I eventually bought or the desktop HP Envy.

(Hal Heydt)
DVI-D is signal compatable with HDMI. All you need is--a quite
inexpensive--HDMI to DVI adapter. Or you can get HDMI to DVI
cables. I've got a good sized collection of monitors that all
have at least DVI input. Last batch of adapters I got were less
than $2 each.

VGA is a whole 'nother animal. Conversion requires an active
device and most of the cheap devices to do that aren't very
good. Plus converters are one way only. You get *either* HDMI to
VGA *or* VGA to HDMI.

The other headache that's coming along is DisplyPort (DP). Like
VGA conversion, any given device is either DP to HDMI or HDMI to
DP. DP to HDMI are very common. To find an HDMI to DP, you've
got to sift through a lot of entries. And, again, there are
quality issues as well as having to be an active device.

On 12/8/2022 10:55 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <suipohtuhgss9ttkksqmhcve9dt0iigtsg@4ax.com>,
> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> On Sat, 3 Dec 2022 20:42:16 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <i8r9oh5313imsoa485uf7q87gp0ajarc14@4ax.com>,
>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>> n Sun, 27 Nov 2022 21:35:09 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <tlhr3e$3nihq$2@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
>>>>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>>>>> An iPad has 3GB RAM these days, it is astonishing that serious
>>>>>> business work can be done in a 2GB address space. But I suspect
>>>>>> that many applications come from earlier times, when 2GB was
>>>>>> luxury undreamt of.
>>>>>
>>>>> (Hal Heydt)
>>>>> Raspberry Pi 4 Model B comes with up to 8GB. I run the DunDraCon
>>>>> con reg on a pair (replicated database) of 4GB models. I used to
>>>>> run it on 1GB SBCs. The shift was because the Pi4B finally got
>>>>> fast enough I/O to suit me. Con reg kind of rattles around loose
>>>>> with that much RAM. I suspect that MariaDB just sucks the entire
>>>>> database into memory.
>>>>
>>>> My HP Envy has 12GB (IIRC, the HP Pavilion has 8GB).
>>>
>>> (Hal Heydt)
>>> Ah...but do either of those machines sell for $55? (Ganted,
>>> that's without PSU, keyboard, mouse/tracball, mass storage
>>> device, cables, or monitor. But with a KVM switch, some of that
>>> can be shared. Since I'm using 120GB SSDs for mass storage, the
>>> *total* outlay for each Pi4B-4 is right about $100 since I
>>> already had some of the required devices on hand.)
>>
>> Of course not.
>>
>> Even though I bought a desktop version [1] through Office Depot at a
>> discount. (This had two video outputs, DVI and VGA, rather than one
>> HDMI. As it happened, my existing monitors were both VGA, but one of
>> them had a DVI port and even included a DVI cable. OTOH, I had no
>> choice between wired and wireless mouse/keyboard; I got wireless and
>> so kept the existing trackball/keyboard.)
>>
>> [1] It has been a while since I checked but, at least at one time, a
>> /portable/ version of the HP Envy existed -- at a much higher price
>> than the HP Pavilion I eventually bought or the desktop HP Envy.
>
> (Hal Heydt)
> DVI-D is signal compatable with HDMI. All you need is--a quite
> inexpensive--HDMI to DVI adapter. Or you can get HDMI to DVI
> cables. I've got a good sized collection of monitors that all
> have at least DVI input. Last batch of adapters I got were less
> than $2 each.
>
> VGA is a whole 'nother animal. Conversion requires an active
> device and most of the cheap devices to do that aren't very
> good. Plus converters are one way only. You get *either* HDMI to
> VGA *or* VGA to HDMI.
>
> The other headache that's coming along is DisplyPort (DP). Like
> VGA conversion, any given device is either DP to HDMI or HDMI to
> DP. DP to HDMI are very common. To find an HDMI to DP, you've
> got to sift through a lot of entries. And, again, there are
> quality issues as well as having to be an active device.

I have already been fighting the DisplayPort battle with my new PCs with
MSI motherboards and LG monitors. I bought about five of the cables
plus converters.

Lynn

On Fri, 9 Dec 2022 04:55:53 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

>In article <suipohtuhgss9ttkksqmhcve9dt0iigtsg@4ax.com>,
>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>On Sat, 3 Dec 2022 20:42:16 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In article <i8r9oh5313imsoa485uf7q87gp0ajarc14@4ax.com>,
>>>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>n Sun, 27 Nov 2022 21:35:09 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article <tlhr3e$3nihq$2@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
>>>>>Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>>>>>An iPad has 3GB RAM these days, it is astonishing that serious
>>>>>>business work can be done in a 2GB address space. But I suspect
>>>>>>that many applications come from earlier times, when 2GB was
>>>>>>luxury undreamt of.
>>>>>
>>>>>(Hal Heydt)
>>>>>Raspberry Pi 4 Model B comes with up to 8GB. I run the DunDraCon
>>>>>con reg on a pair (replicated database) of 4GB models. I used to
>>>>>run it on 1GB SBCs. The shift was because the Pi4B finally got
>>>>>fast enough I/O to suit me. Con reg kind of rattles around loose
>>>>>with that much RAM. I suspect that MariaDB just sucks the entire
>>>>>database into memory.
>>>>
>>>>My HP Envy has 12GB (IIRC, the HP Pavilion has 8GB).
>>>
>>>(Hal Heydt)
>>>Ah...but do either of those machines sell for $55? (Ganted,
>>>that's without PSU, keyboard, mouse/tracball, mass storage
>>>device, cables, or monitor. But with a KVM switch, some of that
>>>can be shared. Since I'm using 120GB SSDs for mass storage, the
>>>*total* outlay for each Pi4B-4 is right about $100 since I
>>>already had some of the required devices on hand.)
>>
>>Of course not.
>>
>>Even though I bought a desktop version [1] through Office Depot at a
>>discount. (This had two video outputs, DVI and VGA, rather than one
>>HDMI. As it happened, my existing monitors were both VGA, but one of
>>them had a DVI port and even included a DVI cable. OTOH, I had no
>>choice between wired and wireless mouse/keyboard; I got wireless and
>>so kept the existing trackball/keyboard.)
>>
>>[1] It has been a while since I checked but, at least at one time, a
>>/portable/ version of the HP Envy existed -- at a much higher price
>>than the HP Pavilion I eventually bought or the desktop HP Envy.
>
>(Hal Heydt)
>DVI-D is signal compatable with HDMI. All you need is--a quite
>inexpensive--HDMI to DVI adapter. Or you can get HDMI to DVI
>cables. I've got a good sized collection of monitors that all
>have at least DVI input. Last batch of adapters I got were less
>than $2 each.

I'm sorry to hear that; the impression I had was that, at least with a
computer, the DVI plug would work in the HDMI socket.

>VGA is a whole 'nother animal. Conversion requires an active
>device and most of the cheap devices to do that aren't very
>good. Plus converters are one way only. You get *either* HDMI to
>VGA *or* VGA to HDMI.

The one I purchased back in 2016
[https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-HDMI-VGA-Adapter-1920x1080/dp/B00BUKO4WY?psc=1&pd_rd_w=4NiFO&content-id=amzn1.sym.9b6c7c5b-711f-47e9-8510-2ca3ff59483f&pf_rd_p=9b6c7c5b-711f-47e9-8510-2ca3ff59483f&pf_rd_r=ZZ6PVN2GGX6RT0M0QJAB&pd_rd_wg=HBXvO&pd_rd_r=2db6983d-164b-40ee-811e-5c670e83b40d&ref_=sspa_dk_rhf_yoy_pt_sub_3&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzUFJZOTNNMTJIUzFaJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNTEwMzE4TVVHNVFJU1JGR0lYJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTAyMDU0NDIyQURQUk1OWEZMRUZKJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfcmhmX3lveSZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=]
is powered by the HDMI input, no dongle required. For non-HD
programming, it works with my laptop (presumably because the laptop is
smart enough to not require HDCP for non-HD programming, as opposed to
the BD Player, which requires it for its own menu). For the BD Player
and HD programming on the laptop, HDCP must be provided.

This is not one of the "cheap" ones but is not all that expensive
either.

So an HDMI splitter with two outputs and one of these and an HDMI to
DVI convertor should work with a new computer.

I have no idea whether the monitors provide HDCP or not. If they
don't, then I will need to finesse that, just as I did for video.

>The other headache that's coming along is DisplyPort (DP). Like
>VGA conversion, any given device is either DP to HDMI or HDMI to
>DP. DP to HDMI are very common. To find an HDMI to DP, you've
>got to sift through a lot of entries. And, again, there are
>quality issues as well as having to be an active device.

My first stop on Amazon would be /StarTech/ devices. They may not be
"cheap", but they do seem to work.

For example,
[https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-DisplayPort-HDMI-Adapter-1920x1200/dp/B0035PS57M/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=3G96231Y36T8J&keywords=startech%2Bhdmi%2Bto%2Bdisplayport%2Badapter&qid=1670606753&s=electronics&sprefix=StarTech%2Bhdmi%2Bto%2Celectronics%2C143&sr=1-1-spons&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExN0Y5VzJQRUNaMllCJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUExMDM1MDY2T1M5SUVTR1NHQkMmZW5jcnlwdGVkQWRJZD1BMDM5MjcyMDNOSzFZTEI1T1YzODkmd2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl&th=1]
may or may not be what you are after. "startech hdmi to displayport"
brings up other choices, some of which accomodate 4K.

When dealing with East Asian Technotrash, restricting yourself to a
brand (or brands) you know are reliable is one way to cut down the
clutter and avoid the el-cheapo losers.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Sun, 27 Nov 2022 18:30:23 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
<taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:

>I suspect that, as an industry insider, you've seen technical
>claims by technical people, and he's seen marketing claims by
>marketing "people".
>
>And you know how accurate marketing claims are.

It isn't just marketing types - I well remember the 1976 Olympics when
the Mayor of Montreal said "the Olympics can no more run a deficit
than a man can have a baby"

Naturally every newspaper cartoonist in Canada immediately drew him as
extremely pregnant".....

In article <t2haqhhghev7uon1j25fefbuh582drfk1l@4ax.com>,
The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>On Sun, 27 Nov 2022 18:30:23 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
><taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I suspect that, as an industry insider, you've seen technical
>>claims by technical people, and he's seen marketing claims by
>>marketing "people".
>>
>>And you know how accurate marketing claims are.
>
>It isn't just marketing types - I well remember the 1976 Olympics when
>the Mayor of Montreal said "the Olympics can no more run a deficit
>than a man can have a baby"
>
>Naturally every newspaper cartoonist in Canada immediately drew him as
>extremely pregnant".....

And one wag drew him pregnant and on the phone, with the caption
"Allo, Morgenthaler?"
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote in
news:t2haqhhghev7uon1j25fefbuh582drfk1l@4ax.com:

> On Sun, 27 Nov 2022 18:30:23 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I suspect that, as an industry insider, you've seen technical
>>claims by technical people, and he's seen marketing claims by
>>marketing "people".
>>
>>And you know how accurate marketing claims are.
>
> It isn't just marketing types - I well remember the 1976
> Olympics when the Mayor of Montreal said "the Olympics can no
> more run a deficit than a man can have a baby"
>
> Naturally every newspaper cartoonist in Canada immediately drew
> him as extremely pregnant".....

Last I heard, the only Olympics that actually turned a profit was Los
Angeles in 1984 (which, last I heard, was *still* turning a profit).

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On Fri, 23 Dec 2022 15:10:36 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
Nicoll) wrote:

>In article <t2haqhhghev7uon1j25fefbuh582drfk1l@4ax.com>,
>The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>>On Sun, 27 Nov 2022 18:30:23 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
>><taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I suspect that, as an industry insider, you've seen technical
>>>claims by technical people, and he's seen marketing claims by
>>>marketing "people".
>>>
>>>And you know how accurate marketing claims are.
>>
>>It isn't just marketing types - I well remember the 1976 Olympics when
>>the Mayor of Montreal said "the Olympics can no more run a deficit
>>than a man can have a baby"
>>
>>Naturally every newspaper cartoonist in Canada immediately drew him as
>>extremely pregnant".....
>
>And one wag drew him pregnant and on the phone, with the caption
>"Allo, Morgenthaler?"

Yes that was Aislin - that specific cartoon was on the cover of one of
his cartoon collection books. AKA Terry Mosher of the Montreal
Gazette.

He's 80 years old and still going strong - and undoubtedly one of the
top North American editorial cartoonists active today.