“When You Should Ban Someone From Your Convention” by Michael Z. Williamson
https://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/cms/index.php/22-writing/516-462

“Here's the scenario. You're running an event, and on TWITter or
Fecesbook, someone calls out a guest and states, "I wouldn't feel safe
with this person at the con!""

“You must immediately ban this person from the convention.”

"No, not the guest. The person making the public scene.”"

Here, here !

Lynn

On 2023-02-03, Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
> “When You Should Ban Someone From Your Convention” by Michael Z. Williamson
> https://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/cms/index.php/22-writing/516-462
>
> “Here's the scenario. You're running an event, and on TWITter or
> Fecesbook, someone calls out a guest and states, "I wouldn't feel safe
> with this person at the con!""
>
> “You must immediately ban this person from the convention.”
>
> "No, not the guest. The person making the public scene.”"
>
> Here, here !

1. What you mean is "Hear, Hear!".

2. I stopped reading MZW when it became clear to me that, like Dante, he was
very fond of Tuckerizing his real life political opponents into torture scenes.

-dsr-

On Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 2:52:08 PM UTC, -dsr- wrote:
> On 2023-02-03, Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > “When You Should Ban Someone From Your Convention” by Michael Z. Williamson
> > https://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/cms/index.php/22-writing/516-462
> >
> > “Here's the scenario. You're running an event, and on TWITter or
> > Fecesbook, someone calls out a guest and states, "I wouldn't feel safe
> > with this person at the con!""
> >
> > “You must immediately ban this person from the convention.”
> >
> > "No, not the guest. The person making the public scene.”"
> >
> > Here, here !
> 1. What you mean is "Hear, Hear!".
>
> 2. I stopped reading MZW when it became clear to me that, like Dante, he was
> very fond of Tuckerizing his real life political opponents into torture scenes.
>
> -dsr-
I prefer my torture scenes - if any - off stage or heavily expurgated, as in E.E.Smith's account of Kinnison's torture on Boskone, but I have no objection to Tuckerising political opponents, if the author can keep the story going at the same time. Last time I heard Dante was still getting good reviews for the Inferno, and I also enjoyed Pournellle's version. His account of two politicians both sentenced as Evil Counsellors for diametrically opposed policies sticks in my mind - the politicians seemed to think that surely one of them must have been giving good advice, but I think the point was that in advocating the policies that they did, both were pushing a party line that they privately believed would not be in the best interests of their country.

I quite like Eichmil's entirely practical but suitably snooty response to the Delgonian Overlord who offered him the opportunity of participating personally in Kinnison's torture "I do not break bones for pleasure. Since you do, you may carry out the procedure as outlined...."

On Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 2:52:08 PM UTC, -dsr- wrote:
> On 2023-02-03, Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > “When You Should Ban Someone From Your Convention” by Michael Z. Williamson
> > https://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/cms/index.php/22-writing/516-462
> >
> > “Here's the scenario. You're running an event, and on TWITter or
> > Fecesbook, someone calls out a guest and states, "I wouldn't feel safe
> > with this person at the con!""
> >
> > “You must immediately ban this person from the convention.”
> >
> > "No, not the guest. The person making the public scene.”"
> >
> > Here, here !
> 1. What you mean is "Hear, Hear!".
>
> 2. I stopped reading MZW when it became clear to me that, like Dante, he was
> very fond of Tuckerizing his real life political opponents into torture scenes.
>
> -dsr-
The obvious equestion about X in hell is - has anybody sent Trump to hell? A web search finds https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/trump-hell-dante/ - and apparently by a writer with a distinguished pedigree - "Ariel Dorfman is the author of Death and the Maiden. His new novel, The Suicide Museum, which deals with the death of Salvador Allende, will be published in 2023." I claim that Dorfman's enthusiasm to curse Trump has caused him to produce a less entertaining story than Pournelle or possibly Dante (since I have not read him I cannot comment first hand) - but YMMV

Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> writes:

> On Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 2:52:08 PM UTC, -dsr- wrote:
>> On 2023-02-03, Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > “When You Should Ban Someone From Your Convention” by Michael Z. Williamson
>> > https://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/cms/index.php/22-writing/516-462
>> >
>> > “Here's the scenario. You're running an event, and on TWITter or
>> > Fecesbook, someone calls out a guest and states, "I wouldn't feel safe
>> > with this person at the con!""
>> >
>> > “You must immediately ban this person from the convention.”
>> >
>> > "No, not the guest. The person making the public scene.”"
>> >
>> > Here, here !
>> 1. What you mean is "Hear, Hear!".
>>
>> 2. I stopped reading MZW when it became clear to me that, like Dante, he was
>> very fond of Tuckerizing his real life political opponents into torture scenes.
>>
>> -dsr-
> The obvious equestion about X in hell is - has anybody sent Trump to
> hell? A web search finds
> https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/trump-hell-dante/ - and
> apparently by a writer with a distinguished pedigree - "Ariel Dorfman
> is the author of Death and the Maiden. His new novel, The Suicide
> Museum, which deals with the death of Salvador Allende, will be
> published in 2023." I claim that Dorfman's enthusiasm to curse Trump
> has caused him to produce a less entertaining story than Pournelle or
> possibly Dante (since I have not read him I cannot comment first hand)
> - but YMMV

Dorothy L. Sayers's translation of Dante is outstanding. Very clear,
readable, engaging.

On Monday, February 6, 2023 at 2:26:24 AM UTC, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> writes:
>
> > On Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 2:52:08 PM UTC, -dsr- wrote:
> >> On 2023-02-03, Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > “When You Should Ban Someone From Your Convention” by Michael Z. Williamson
> >> > https://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/cms/index.php/22-writing/516-462
> >> >
> >> > “Here's the scenario. You're running an event, and on TWITter or
> >> > Fecesbook, someone calls out a guest and states, "I wouldn't feel safe
> >> > with this person at the con!""
> >> >
> >> > “You must immediately ban this person from the convention.”
> >> >
> >> > "No, not the guest. The person making the public scene.”"
> >> >
> >> > Here, here !
> >> 1. What you mean is "Hear, Hear!".
> >>
> >> 2. I stopped reading MZW when it became clear to me that, like Dante, he was
> >> very fond of Tuckerizing his real life political opponents into torture scenes.
> >>
> >> -dsr-
> > The obvious equestion about X in hell is - has anybody sent Trump to
> > hell? A web search finds
> > https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/trump-hell-dante/ - and
> > apparently by a writer with a distinguished pedigree - "Ariel Dorfman
> > is the author of Death and the Maiden. His new novel, The Suicide
> > Museum, which deals with the death of Salvador Allende, will be
> > published in 2023." I claim that Dorfman's enthusiasm to curse Trump
> > has caused him to produce a less entertaining story than Pournelle or
> > possibly Dante (since I have not read him I cannot comment first hand)
> > - but YMMV
> Dorothy L. Sayers's translation of Dante is outstanding. Very clear,
> readable, engaging.
Thanks - it has at least gone on to my "to buy" list, although that list is adding more items than are being removed from ti.

In article <3fdfb2f3-1ea8-4ce6-927d-9b11ffcf3903n@googlegroups.com>,
Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>On Monday, February 6, 2023 at 2:26:24 AM UTC, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> writes:
>>
>> > On Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 2:52:08 PM UTC, -dsr- wrote:
>> >> On 2023-02-03, Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > “When You Should Ban Someone From Your Convention” by Michael
>Z. Williamson
>> >> > https://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/cms/index.php/22-writing/516-462
>> >> >
>> >> > “Here's the scenario. You're running an event, and on TWITter or
>> >> > Fecesbook, someone calls out a guest and states, "I wouldn't feel safe
>> >> > with this person at the con!""
>> >> >
>> >> > “You must immediately ban this person from the convention.”
>> >> >
>> >> > "No, not the guest. The person making the public scene.”"
>> >> >
>> >> > Here, here !
>> >> 1. What you mean is "Hear, Hear!".
>> >>
>> >> 2. I stopped reading MZW when it became clear to me that, like
>Dante, he was
>> >> very fond of Tuckerizing his real life political opponents into
>torture scenes.
>> >>
>> >> -dsr-
>> > The obvious equestion about X in hell is - has anybody sent Trump to
>> > hell? A web search finds
>> > https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/trump-hell-dante/ - and
>> > apparently by a writer with a distinguished pedigree - "Ariel Dorfman
>> > is the author of Death and the Maiden. His new novel, The Suicide
>> > Museum, which deals with the death of Salvador Allende, will be
>> > published in 2023." I claim that Dorfman's enthusiasm to curse Trump
>> > has caused him to produce a less entertaining story than Pournelle or
>> > possibly Dante (since I have not read him I cannot comment first hand)
>> > - but YMMV
>> Dorothy L. Sayers's translation of Dante is outstanding. Very clear,
>> readable, engaging.
>Thanks - it has at least gone on to my "to buy" list, although that list
>is adding more items than are being removed from ti.

(Hal Heydt)
Dorothy was particularly fond of the Sayers translation. I'd
have to check the bookshelves, but she also used to read a facing
page translation when she wanted to read it in the original
Italian.

djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>In article <3fdfb2f3-1ea8-4ce6-927d-9b11ffcf3903n@googlegroups.com>,
>Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>>On Monday, February 6, 2023 at 2:26:24 AM UTC, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>>> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> writes:
>>>
>>> > On Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 2:52:08 PM UTC, -dsr- wrote:
>>> >> On 2023-02-03, Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> > “When You Should Ban Someone From Your Convention” by Michael
>>Z. Williamson
>>> >> > https://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/cms/index.php/22-writing/516-462
>>> >> >
>>> >> > “Here's the scenario. You're running an event, and on TWITter or
>>> >> > Fecesbook, someone calls out a guest and states, "I wouldn't feel safe
>>> >> > with this person at the con!""
>>> >> >
>>> >> > “You must immediately ban this person from the convention.”
>>> >> >
>>> >> > "No, not the guest. The person making the public scene.”"
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Here, here !
>>> >> 1. What you mean is "Hear, Hear!".
>>> >>
>>> >> 2. I stopped reading MZW when it became clear to me that, like
>>Dante, he was
>>> >> very fond of Tuckerizing his real life political opponents into
>>torture scenes.
>>> >>
>>> >> -dsr-
>>> > The obvious equestion about X in hell is - has anybody sent Trump to
>>> > hell? A web search finds
>>> > https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/trump-hell-dante/ - and
>>> > apparently by a writer with a distinguished pedigree - "Ariel Dorfman
>>> > is the author of Death and the Maiden. His new novel, The Suicide
>>> > Museum, which deals with the death of Salvador Allende, will be
>>> > published in 2023." I claim that Dorfman's enthusiasm to curse Trump
>>> > has caused him to produce a less entertaining story than Pournelle or
>>> > possibly Dante (since I have not read him I cannot comment first hand)
>>> > - but YMMV
>>> Dorothy L. Sayers's translation of Dante is outstanding. Very clear,
>>> readable, engaging.
>>Thanks - it has at least gone on to my "to buy" list, although that list
>>is adding more items than are being removed from ti.
>
>(Hal Heydt)
>Dorothy was particularly fond of the Sayers translation. I'd
>have to check the bookshelves, but she also used to read a facing
>page translation when she wanted to read it in the original
>Italian.

I've been reading through the Lord Peter Whimsey stories. They
give the reader a view of 1920's England (from the upper classes,
mainly). The overt and blatent racism and classism is offputting to modern
readers (at least this one). I still enjoy the mysteries and
from a amateur historian perspective, the depictions of daily
life.

scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>
> I've been reading through the Lord Peter Whimsey stories. They
> give the reader a view of 1920's England (from the upper classes,
> mainly). The overt and blatent racism and classism is offputting to modern
> readers (at least this one). I still enjoy the mysteries and
> from a amateur historian perspective, the depictions of daily
> life.

The earlier stories are also very interesting for their gripping
description of PTSD long before the term was coined.

On Monday, February 6, 2023 at 9:48:20 PM UTC, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
> >In article <3fdfb2f3-1ea8-4ce6...@googlegroups.com>,
> >Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> >>On Monday, February 6, 2023 at 2:26:24 AM UTC, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> >>> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> writes:
> >>>
> >>> > On Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 2:52:08 PM UTC, -dsr- wrote:
> >>> >> On 2023-02-03, Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> >> > “When You Should Ban Someone From Your Convention” by Michael
> >>Z. Williamson
> >>> >> > https://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/cms/index.php/22-writing/516-462
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > “Here's the scenario. You're running an event, and on TWITter or
> >>> >> > Fecesbook, someone calls out a guest and states, "I wouldn't feel safe
> >>> >> > with this person at the con!""
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > “You must immediately ban this person from the convention.”
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > "No, not the guest. The person making the public scene.”"
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > Here, here !
> >>> >> 1. What you mean is "Hear, Hear!".
> >>> >>
> >>> >> 2. I stopped reading MZW when it became clear to me that, like
> >>Dante, he was
> >>> >> very fond of Tuckerizing his real life political opponents into
> >>torture scenes.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> -dsr-
> >>> > The obvious equestion about X in hell is - has anybody sent Trump to
> >>> > hell? A web search finds
> >>> > https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/trump-hell-dante/ - and
> >>> > apparently by a writer with a distinguished pedigree - "Ariel Dorfman
> >>> > is the author of Death and the Maiden. His new novel, The Suicide
> >>> > Museum, which deals with the death of Salvador Allende, will be
> >>> > published in 2023." I claim that Dorfman's enthusiasm to curse Trump
> >>> > has caused him to produce a less entertaining story than Pournelle or
> >>> > possibly Dante (since I have not read him I cannot comment first hand)
> >>> > - but YMMV
> >>> Dorothy L. Sayers's translation of Dante is outstanding. Very clear,
> >>> readable, engaging.
> >>Thanks - it has at least gone on to my "to buy" list, although that list
> >>is adding more items than are being removed from ti.
> >
> >(Hal Heydt)
> >Dorothy was particularly fond of the Sayers translation. I'd
> >have to check the bookshelves, but she also used to read a facing
> >page translation when she wanted to read it in the original
> >Italian.
> I've been reading through the Lord Peter Whimsey stories. They
> give the reader a view of 1920's England (from the upper classes,
> mainly). The overt and blatent racism and classism is offputting to modern
> readers (at least this one). I still enjoy the mysteries and
> from a amateur historian perspective, the depictions of daily
> life.
Privilege appears to be universal - one recent manifestation being those people who can and do proclaim not only that they are associated with progressive causes, but that their parents and grandparents were also associated with progressive causes. As far as I can remember, Lord Peter Wimsey, Albert Campion, and Sherlock Holmes were always excellent at working well with their social inferiors. (I speak of the books - what little I saw of the BBC Campion series did not impress me).

On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 5:08:09 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> “When You Should Ban Someone From Your Convention” by Michael Z. Williamson
> https://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/cms/index.php/22-writing/516-462
>
> “Here's the scenario. You're running an event, and on TWITter or
> Fecesbook, someone calls out a guest and states, "I wouldn't feel safe
> with this person at the con!""
>
> “You must immediately ban this person from the convention.”
>
> "No, not the guest. The person making the public scene.”"

Bullshit.

You encourage them to listen to their feelings of unsafety and choose,
on their own, not to attend. You don't ban anybody based on one person's
expression of feelings.

On Fri, 3 Feb 2023 16:08:03 -0600, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>“When You Should Ban Someone From Your Convention” by Michael Z. Williamson
> https://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/cms/index.php/22-writing/516-462
>
>“Here's the scenario. You're running an event, and on TWITter or
>Fecesbook, someone calls out a guest and states, "I wouldn't feel safe
>with this person at the con!""
>
>“You must immediately ban this person from the convention.”
>
>"No, not the guest. The person making the public scene.”"
>
>Here, here !
>
>Lynn

Well it's actually "hear, hear" which is supposedly what British
members of parliament say since clapping is banned in the House of
Commons.....

On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 1:14:33 AM UTC, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
> >
> > I've been reading through the Lord Peter Whimsey stories. They
> > give the reader a view of 1920's England (from the upper classes,
> > mainly). The overt and blatent racism and classism is offputting to modern
> > readers (at least this one). I still enjoy the mysteries and
> > from a amateur historian perspective, the depictions of daily
> > life.
> The earlier stories are also very interesting for their gripping
> description of PTSD long before the term was coined.
I see that "Whose Body" is available at https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/author/45867 and does indeed contain references to what we would now call PTSD. I quite liked it. The good guys, at worst, are guilty of flaunting their non-racism and non-classism. As part of the story you see Wimsey realising that what started as an intellectual hobby - amateur detection - should be pursued with an eye to its social benefits rather than just his own amusement - he must continue to investigate suspects he has come to like. A notion of service to society and therefore (for Lord Wimsey) his social inferiors is likely to be incompatible with overt classism and racism - and classism and racism would also as make it more difficult to obtain information from those inferiors.

In article <a25c1581-fc4c-4c94-8da2-3ee168a2f0ddn@googlegroups.com>,
Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:

big snip: for some reason, quoted material is getting more and
more unreadable here.

> and classism and racism would also as make it more difficult
> to obtain information from those inferiors.

A recurring detail in the old Avenger pulp is that Josh and Rosabel
Newton, being African American, are frequently dismissed as mere
servants, basically furniture, by the bad guys. This rarely works
out well for the crooks. Their boss, Richard Benson, of course
immediately spotted them as university graduates when he met them.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Wednesday, 8 February 2023 at 17:31:35 UTC, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 1:14:33 AM UTC, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> > sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
> > >
> > > I've been reading through the Lord Peter Whimsey stories. They
> > > give the reader a view of 1920's England (from the upper classes,
> > > mainly). The overt and blatent racism and classism is offputting to modern
> > > readers (at least this one). I still enjoy the mysteries and
> > > from a amateur historian perspective, the depictions of daily
> > > life.
> > The earlier stories are also very interesting for their gripping
> > description of PTSD long before the term was coined.

"Shell shock" was known, of course. Lord Peter's mother
is rather dismissive of it, I recall.

> I see that "Whose Body" is available at https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/author/45867 and does indeed contain references to what we would now call PTSD. I quite liked it. The good guys, at worst, are guilty of flaunting their non-racism and non-classism.

An early scene in it comes to mind where Lord Peter
makes fun of Bunter, his war comrade and personal
servant, abusing his power over Bunter - service was
poorly paid and precarious, and being servile is a
job skill.

> As part of the story you see Wimsey realising that what started as an intellectual hobby - amateur detection - should be pursued with an eye to its social benefits rather than just his own amusement - he must continue to investigate suspects he has come to like. A notion of service to society and therefore (for Lord Wimsey) his social inferiors is likely to be incompatible with overt classism and racism - and classism and racism would also as make it more difficult to obtain information from those inferiors.

Margery Allingham's "Albert Campion" is partly another
"take" on Lord Peter: he's an aristocratic younger son
but I think we are never told whose. Campion is his
common-people pseudonym but also his preferred identity,
as if Bruce Wayne chose to be, well, maybe Matches Malone
all the time - where Bruce poses as a criminal (I think "Matches"
passes as an arsonist for hire) and collects information from
the criminal community. Campion's choice of servant, Lugg, has
criminal history but probably is even more dependent,
economically, on his master's kindness. Not to mention
protection from the law of the land. Though in practice, they
are each entertainingly rude to the other. You could
say that Lugg wants his boss to be properly aristocratic like
Lord Peter, but Lugg's own effort when he wants to play the role
of Bunter or Jeeves leaves something to be desired.

I don't know if a story where Lord Peter recruits a
reformed criminal lockpicker to teach a female agent
the basic skills is a kind of tribute in reply to Campion
and Lugg. I'm pretty confident that an episode of Lugg
insisting on reading out the newspaper during the master's
morning bath follows from a description of Bunter doing that.

And there's usually several young men around who can
demonstrate to criminals the benefit of an expensive
education with a substantial athletic element when
Campion arranges for this to occur.

John Creasey's "The Toff" is yet another suave upper-class
detective with a personal manservant for a partner in
adventures, but Wikipedia relates him to "The Saint",
whom I understand as a self-made man and semi-ethical
criminal, and not to Wimsey and Bunter or even Holmes
and Watson. And... Creasey wrote faster. I expect it
to show.

jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:

> In article <a25c1581-fc4c-4c94-8da2-3ee168a2f0ddn@googlegroups.com>,
> Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>
> big snip: for some reason, quoted material is getting more and
> more unreadable here.
>
>> and classism and racism would also as make it more difficult
>> to obtain information from those inferiors.
>
> A recurring detail in the old Avenger pulp is that Josh and Rosabel
> Newton, being African American, are frequently dismissed as mere
> servants, basically furniture, by the bad guys. This rarely works
> out well for the crooks. Their boss, Richard Benson, of course
> immediately spotted them as university graduates when he met them.

I'd forgotten that! If I'm dredging up those old memories correctly,
they also did a great job of doing Steppin Fetchit impersonations when
needed for the situation.

Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> writes:

> On Wednesday, 8 February 2023 at 17:31:35 UTC, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 1:14:33 AM UTC, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>> > sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>> > >
>> > > I've been reading through the Lord Peter Whimsey stories. They
>> > > give the reader a view of 1920's England (from the upper classes,
>> > > mainly). The overt and blatent racism and classism is offputting to modern
>> > > readers (at least this one). I still enjoy the mysteries and
>> > > from a amateur historian perspective, the depictions of daily
>> > > life.
>> > The earlier stories are also very interesting for their gripping
>> > description of PTSD long before the term was coined.
>
> "Shell shock" was known, of course. Lord Peter's mother
> is rather dismissive of it, I recall.
>
>> I see that "Whose Body" is available at
>> https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/author/45867 and does indeed
>> contain references to what we would now call PTSD. I quite liked
>> it. The good guys, at worst, are guilty of flaunting their
>> non-racism and non-classism.
>
> An early scene in it comes to mind where Lord Peter
> makes fun of Bunter, his war comrade and personal
> servant, abusing his power over Bunter - service was
> poorly paid and precarious, and being servile is a
> job skill.

My recollection may be faulty, so I need to reread (what a fun duty!),
but I recall that while Bunter was Lord Peter's manservant, he might
better be described as his caretaker in the early stories. The teasing
was less bullying a social inferior than good-natured teasing between
men with a very fluid power structure.

<snip>

> John Creasey's "The Toff" is yet another suave upper-class
> detective with a personal manservant for a partner in
> adventures, but Wikipedia relates him to "The Saint",
> whom I understand as a self-made man and semi-ethical
> criminal, and not to Wimsey and Bunter or even Holmes
> and Watson. And... Creasey wrote faster. I expect it
> to show.

I don't remember us ever really getting Simon Templar's background.
He's certainly wealthy, and he certainly is able to mix with the upper
classes, but he is a con man after all...

He has various accomplices who come and go over the years; there's one
whose name I don't recall at the moment from Chicago who is stupid to
the point of disability. Templar's tolerance for him is all too clearly
"tolerance".

On Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 1:33:29 PM UTC-5, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
> On Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 2:52:08 PM UTC, -dsr- wrote:
> > On 2023-02-03, Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > “When You Should Ban Someone From Your Convention” by Michael Z. Williamson
> > > https://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/cms/index.php/22-writing/516-462
> > >
> > > “Here's the scenario. You're running an event, and on TWITter or
> > > Fecesbook, someone calls out a guest and states, "I wouldn't feel safe
> > > with this person at the con!""
> > >
> > > “You must immediately ban this person from the convention.”
> > >
> > > "No, not the guest. The person making the public scene.”"
> > >
> > > Here, here !
> > 1. What you mean is "Hear, Hear!".
> >
> > 2. I stopped reading MZW when it became clear to me that, like Dante, he was
> > very fond of Tuckerizing his real life political opponents into torture scenes.
> >
> > -dsr-
> The obvious equestion about X in hell is - has anybody sent Trump to hell? A
> web search finds https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/trump-hell-dante/ -
> and apparently by a writer with a distinguished pedigree - "Ariel Dorfman is the
> author of Death and the Maiden. His new novel, The Suicide Museum, which
> deals with the death of Salvador Allende, will be published in 2023." I claim that
> Dorfman's enthusiasm to curse Trump has caused him to produce a less
> entertaining story than Pournelle or possibly Dante (since I have not read him
> I cannot comment first hand) - but YMMV

Oh, yes, the idiot who slandered Carl Barks in:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Read_Donald_Duck

I've read he adjusted his views but I haven't found the evidence on the `net.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1988-08-07-bk-122-story.html

In the days of Solidarity he stood with the Polish people rather than the
Generals and their Soviet masters, so I'll give him that.

__
Kevin R

On Wednesday, February 8, 2023 at 11:47:04 PM UTC-5, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
>
> > In article <a25c1581-fc4c-4c94...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> >
> > big snip: for some reason, quoted material is getting more and
> > more unreadable here.
> >
> >> and classism and racism would also as make it more difficult
> >> to obtain information from those inferiors.
> >
> > A recurring detail in the old Avenger pulp is that Josh and Rosabel
> > Newton, being African American, are frequently dismissed as mere
> > servants, basically furniture, by the bad guys. This rarely works
> > out well for the crooks. Their boss, Richard Benson, of course
> > immediately spotted them as university graduates when he met them.
> I'd forgotten that! If I'm dredging up those old memories correctly,
> they also did a great job of doing Steppin Fetchit impersonations when
> needed for the situation.

In the adaptation by DC Comics, the Newtons wore Phi Beta Kappa keys.

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Justice-Inc-1975/Issue-2?id=171290&quality=hq#11

Jack Kirby art from issue 2 on.

https://www.comics.org/series/2220/

--
Kevin R

On Thursday, 9 February 2023 at 04:58:21 UTC, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> writes:
>
> > On Wednesday, 8 February 2023 at 17:31:35 UTC, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 1:14:33 AM UTC, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> >> > sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
> >> > >
> >> > > I've been reading through the Lord Peter Whimsey stories. They
> >> > > give the reader a view of 1920's England (from the upper classes,
> >> > > mainly). The overt and blatent racism and classism is offputting to modern
> >> > > readers (at least this one). I still enjoy the mysteries and
> >> > > from a amateur historian perspective, the depictions of daily
> >> > > life.
> >> > The earlier stories are also very interesting for their gripping
> >> > description of PTSD long before the term was coined.
> >
> > "Shell shock" was known, of course. Lord Peter's mother
> > is rather dismissive of it, I recall.
> >
> >> I see that "Whose Body" is available at
> >> https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/author/45867 and does indeed
> >> contain references to what we would now call PTSD. I quite liked
> >> it. The good guys, at worst, are guilty of flaunting their
> >> non-racism and non-classism.
> >
> > An early scene in it comes to mind where Lord Peter
> > makes fun of Bunter, his war comrade and personal
> > servant, abusing his power over Bunter - service was
> > poorly paid and precarious, and being servile is a
> > job skill.
> My recollection may be faulty, so I need to reread (what a fun duty!),
> but I recall that while Bunter was Lord Peter's manservant, he might
> better be described as his caretaker in the early stories. The teasing
> was less bullying a social inferior than good-natured teasing between
> men with a very fluid power structure.
>
> <snip>
> > John Creasey's "The Toff" is yet another suave upper-class
> > detective with a personal manservant for a partner in
> > adventures, but Wikipedia relates him to "The Saint",
> > whom I understand as a self-made man and semi-ethical
> > criminal, and not to Wimsey and Bunter or even Holmes
> > and Watson. And... Creasey wrote faster. I expect it
> > to show.
> I don't remember us ever really getting Simon Templar's background.
> He's certainly wealthy, and he certainly is able to mix with the upper
> classes, but he is a con man after all...
>
> He has various accomplices who come and go over the years; there's one
> whose name I don't recall at the moment from Chicago who is stupid to
> the point of disability. Templar's tolerance for him is all too clearly
> "tolerance".

Hoppy Uniatz. Now I look, there's also a valet in early
stories. <https://saint.fandom.com/wiki/Simon_Templar>

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Saint_(1997_film)>
describes a scene from his childhood, without explaining
any connection to the rest of the story, except that he
is at what I take to be a Roman Catholic orphanage, and
in this version, he goes on to use names of "saints" as
criminal aliases, with "Simon Templar" also being such
an alias. And a girl dies. The page says that in a draft
before the film was actually made, his later love interest is
murdered by a bad guy and Simon is very angry about that.
So maybe the point was meant to be that that early tragedy
formed his character to be an avenger of women But they
took the part out where he did that?

On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 09:44:44 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, 9 February 2023 at 04:58:21 UTC, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> writes:
>>
>> > On Wednesday, 8 February 2023 at 17:31:35 UTC, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
>> >> On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 1:14:33 AM UTC, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>> >> > sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I've been reading through the Lord Peter Whimsey stories. They
>> >> > > give the reader a view of 1920's England (from the upper classes,
>> >> > > mainly). The overt and blatent racism and classism is offputting to modern
>> >> > > readers (at least this one). I still enjoy the mysteries and
>> >> > > from a amateur historian perspective, the depictions of daily
>> >> > > life.
>> >> > The earlier stories are also very interesting for their gripping
>> >> > description of PTSD long before the term was coined.
>> >
>> > "Shell shock" was known, of course. Lord Peter's mother
>> > is rather dismissive of it, I recall.
>> >
>> >> I see that "Whose Body" is available at
>> >> https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/author/45867 and does indeed
>> >> contain references to what we would now call PTSD. I quite liked
>> >> it. The good guys, at worst, are guilty of flaunting their
>> >> non-racism and non-classism.
>> >
>> > An early scene in it comes to mind where Lord Peter
>> > makes fun of Bunter, his war comrade and personal
>> > servant, abusing his power over Bunter - service was
>> > poorly paid and precarious, and being servile is a
>> > job skill.
>> My recollection may be faulty, so I need to reread (what a fun duty!),
>> but I recall that while Bunter was Lord Peter's manservant, he might
>> better be described as his caretaker in the early stories. The teasing
>> was less bullying a social inferior than good-natured teasing between
>> men with a very fluid power structure.
>>
>> <snip>
>> > John Creasey's "The Toff" is yet another suave upper-class
>> > detective with a personal manservant for a partner in
>> > adventures, but Wikipedia relates him to "The Saint",
>> > whom I understand as a self-made man and semi-ethical
>> > criminal, and not to Wimsey and Bunter or even Holmes
>> > and Watson. And... Creasey wrote faster. I expect it
>> > to show.
>> I don't remember us ever really getting Simon Templar's background.
>> He's certainly wealthy, and he certainly is able to mix with the upper
>> classes, but he is a con man after all...
>>
>> He has various accomplices who come and go over the years; there's one
>> whose name I don't recall at the moment from Chicago who is stupid to
>> the point of disability. Templar's tolerance for him is all too clearly
>> "tolerance".
>
>Hoppy Uniatz. Now I look, there's also a valet in early
>stories. <https://saint.fandom.com/wiki/Simon_Templar>
>
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Saint_(1997_film)>
>describes a scene from his childhood, without explaining
>any connection to the rest of the story, except that he
>is at what I take to be a Roman Catholic orphanage, and
>in this version, he goes on to use names of "saints" as
>criminal aliases, with "Simon Templar" also being such
>an alias. And a girl dies. The page says that in a draft
>before the film was actually made, his later love interest is
>murdered by a bad guy and Simon is very angry about that.
>So maybe the point was meant to be that that early tragedy
>formed his character to be an avenger of women But they
>took the part out where he did that?

I always took it that the early scene establishes the reason for his
behavior later in the film. That is, it was a traumatic event that
ruled his life from that point on.

Also, he had no name. The one the orphanage gave him was a made-up as
any of those he assumed later. In a sense, he has no self-identity.

And I found the early scenes quite relevant to the rest of the film.
But then, I don't have to have all the i's dotted and t's crossed to
figure something out.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 3:51:05 AM UTC-7, Kevrob wrote:

> Oh, yes, the idiot who slandered Carl Barks in:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Read_Donald_Duck

It certainly is true that some Walt Disney cartoons involved
satire that empathized with the poor against the rich.

John Savard

On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 8:59:40 PM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 3:51:05 AM UTC-7, Kevrob wrote:
>
> > Oh, yes, the idiot who slandered Carl Barks in:
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Read_Donald_Duck
>
> It certainly is true that some Walt Disney cartoons involved
> satire that empathized with the poor against the rich.
>
It certainly _is_ true that the book contained a bunch of stupid
nonsense. And yet, it was wildly popular throughout Latin America.

But the reason is not hard to see.

Just as, given what the Ukrainians suffered under the Soviets,
I reject the lie that they are perverse and inclined to Nazism because
under the circumstances, they mistakenly took the Nazis for liberators...

so I must also apply this principle in the opposite direction.

Given what many Latin American countries suffered under right-wing
military juntas - some of them, like that of Augusto Pinochet, put in
place with U.S. help - it's small wonder that some people down there
mistakenly thought of the Communists as liberators.

John Savard

Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> writes:

> On Thursday, 9 February 2023 at 04:58:21 UTC, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> writes:
>>
>> > On Wednesday, 8 February 2023 at 17:31:35 UTC, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
>> >> On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 1:14:33 AM UTC, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>> >> > sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I've been reading through the Lord Peter Whimsey stories. They
>> >> > > give the reader a view of 1920's England (from the upper classes,
>> >> > > mainly). The overt and blatent racism and classism is offputting to modern
>> >> > > readers (at least this one). I still enjoy the mysteries and
>> >> > > from a amateur historian perspective, the depictions of daily
>> >> > > life.
>> >> > The earlier stories are also very interesting for their gripping
>> >> > description of PTSD long before the term was coined.
>> >
>> > "Shell shock" was known, of course. Lord Peter's mother
>> > is rather dismissive of it, I recall.
>> >
>> >> I see that "Whose Body" is available at
>> >> https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/author/45867 and does indeed
>> >> contain references to what we would now call PTSD. I quite liked
>> >> it. The good guys, at worst, are guilty of flaunting their
>> >> non-racism and non-classism.
>> >
>> > An early scene in it comes to mind where Lord Peter
>> > makes fun of Bunter, his war comrade and personal
>> > servant, abusing his power over Bunter - service was
>> > poorly paid and precarious, and being servile is a
>> > job skill.
>> My recollection may be faulty, so I need to reread (what a fun duty!),
>> but I recall that while Bunter was Lord Peter's manservant, he might
>> better be described as his caretaker in the early stories. The teasing
>> was less bullying a social inferior than good-natured teasing between
>> men with a very fluid power structure.
>>
>> <snip>
>> > John Creasey's "The Toff" is yet another suave upper-class
>> > detective with a personal manservant for a partner in
>> > adventures, but Wikipedia relates him to "The Saint",
>> > whom I understand as a self-made man and semi-ethical
>> > criminal, and not to Wimsey and Bunter or even Holmes
>> > and Watson. And... Creasey wrote faster. I expect it
>> > to show.
>> I don't remember us ever really getting Simon Templar's background.
>> He's certainly wealthy, and he certainly is able to mix with the upper
>> classes, but he is a con man after all...
>>
>> He has various accomplices who come and go over the years; there's one
>> whose name I don't recall at the moment from Chicago who is stupid to
>> the point of disability. Templar's tolerance for him is all too clearly
>> "tolerance".
>
> Hoppy Uniatz. Now I look, there's also a valet in early
> stories. <https://saint.fandom.com/wiki/Simon_Templar>
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Saint_(1997_film)>
> describes a scene from his childhood, without explaining
> any connection to the rest of the story, except that he
> is at what I take to be a Roman Catholic orphanage, and
> in this version, he goes on to use names of "saints" as
> criminal aliases, with "Simon Templar" also being such
> an alias. And a girl dies. The page says that in a draft
> before the film was actually made, his later love interest is
> murdered by a bad guy and Simon is very angry about that.
> So maybe the point was meant to be that that early tragedy
> formed his character to be an avenger of women But they
> took the part out where he did that?

And of course that movie was decades after anything written Leslie
Charteris, to it seems to me like it doesn't really count.

On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 09:52:41 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer
<pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:

>Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> writes:
>
>> On Thursday, 9 February 2023 at 04:58:21 UTC, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>>> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> writes:
>>>
>>> > On Wednesday, 8 February 2023 at 17:31:35 UTC, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
>>> >> On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 1:14:33 AM UTC, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>>> >> > sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > I've been reading through the Lord Peter Whimsey stories. They
>>> >> > > give the reader a view of 1920's England (from the upper classes,
>>> >> > > mainly). The overt and blatent racism and classism is offputting to modern
>>> >> > > readers (at least this one). I still enjoy the mysteries and
>>> >> > > from a amateur historian perspective, the depictions of daily
>>> >> > > life.
>>> >> > The earlier stories are also very interesting for their gripping
>>> >> > description of PTSD long before the term was coined.
>>> >
>>> > "Shell shock" was known, of course. Lord Peter's mother
>>> > is rather dismissive of it, I recall.
>>> >
>>> >> I see that "Whose Body" is available at
>>> >> https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/author/45867 and does indeed
>>> >> contain references to what we would now call PTSD. I quite liked
>>> >> it. The good guys, at worst, are guilty of flaunting their
>>> >> non-racism and non-classism.
>>> >
>>> > An early scene in it comes to mind where Lord Peter
>>> > makes fun of Bunter, his war comrade and personal
>>> > servant, abusing his power over Bunter - service was
>>> > poorly paid and precarious, and being servile is a
>>> > job skill.
>>> My recollection may be faulty, so I need to reread (what a fun duty!),
>>> but I recall that while Bunter was Lord Peter's manservant, he might
>>> better be described as his caretaker in the early stories. The teasing
>>> was less bullying a social inferior than good-natured teasing between
>>> men with a very fluid power structure.
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>> > John Creasey's "The Toff" is yet another suave upper-class
>>> > detective with a personal manservant for a partner in
>>> > adventures, but Wikipedia relates him to "The Saint",
>>> > whom I understand as a self-made man and semi-ethical
>>> > criminal, and not to Wimsey and Bunter or even Holmes
>>> > and Watson. And... Creasey wrote faster. I expect it
>>> > to show.
>>> I don't remember us ever really getting Simon Templar's background.
>>> He's certainly wealthy, and he certainly is able to mix with the upper
>>> classes, but he is a con man after all...
>>>
>>> He has various accomplices who come and go over the years; there's one
>>> whose name I don't recall at the moment from Chicago who is stupid to
>>> the point of disability. Templar's tolerance for him is all too clearly
>>> "tolerance".
>>
>> Hoppy Uniatz. Now I look, there's also a valet in early
>> stories. <https://saint.fandom.com/wiki/Simon_Templar>
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Saint_(1997_film)>
>> describes a scene from his childhood, without explaining
>> any connection to the rest of the story, except that he
>> is at what I take to be a Roman Catholic orphanage, and
>> in this version, he goes on to use names of "saints" as
>> criminal aliases, with "Simon Templar" also being such
>> an alias. And a girl dies. The page says that in a draft
>> before the film was actually made, his later love interest is
>> murdered by a bad guy and Simon is very angry about that.
>> So maybe the point was meant to be that that early tragedy
>> formed his character to be an avenger of women But they
>> took the part out where he did that?
>
>And of course that movie was decades after anything written Leslie
>Charteris, to it seems to me like it doesn't really count.

It would surely have been based, to the extent it had anything to do
with what had gone before, on the TV show.

It is an echo of an adaptation.

I enjoy watching it, BTW, every time it comes up in rotation. I never
really "got" the TV show. Same for /The A-Team/; well, where else can
you see guys flying a tank?
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."