On 7/18/2023 12:05 AM, Default User wrote:
> Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
>> On 7/17/2023 2:31 AM, Default User wrote:
>>> On Thursday, July 13, 2023 at 10:36:43 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>
>>>> I do think that there is a cpu for each of the three AIs embedded
>>>> in the SecUnit, merely from a security standpoint. The best way
>>>> to ensure computational security is and always will be, an air
>>>> gap. Of course, the fact that MB can reprogram its governor shows
>>>> that there is a security problem, so maybe all three AIs do run
>>>> on the same cpu.
>>>
>>> What "three AIs" are you talking about? Please name them, and
>>> present something from the text to support that there is anything
>>> but Murderbot itself. The problem is that you state these things as
>>> if they were fact when there's no basis.
>>>
>>> Brian
>>
>> All you had to do was read my original posting.
>
> I sure as HELL was not going slog through that giant block of text.
>
> Do you mean HubSystem and MedSystem? Those are EXTERNAL systems, not
> part of MurderBot. There is the governor module, but that's not an AI.
>
>
> Brian

Sorry for my slog. My paragraphing sucks. I am a codejock, not a writer.

Murderbot has its own HubSystem and MedSystem AIs. And the Governor is
an AI also, why would it not be an AI ? Otherwise, Murderbot would be
dragging around a MedSystem cabinet everywhere that it went to.

Everything in the Murderbot Universe has these three AIs. The
spaceships, the medical systems, the habitats, CombatUnits, etc. Even
the baggage bots. Otherwise you have got machinery running amok all
over the place and then we have Skynet and Terminators killing
everything in sight.

Sounds like we have to agree to disagree on this.

Lynn

On 18/07/23 17:05, Default User wrote:
> Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
>> On 7/17/2023 2:31 AM, Default User wrote:
>>> On Thursday, July 13, 2023 at 10:36:43 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>
>>>> I do think that there is a cpu for each of the three AIs embedded
>>>> in the SecUnit, merely from a security standpoint. The best way
>>>> to ensure computational security is and always will be, an air
>>>> gap. Of course, the fact that MB can reprogram its governor shows
>>>> that there is a security problem, so maybe all three AIs do run
>>>> on the same cpu.
>>>
>>> What "three AIs" are you talking about? Please name them, and
>>> present something from the text to support that there is anything
>>> but Murderbot itself. The problem is that you state these things as
>>> if they were fact when there's no basis.
>>>
>>> Brian
>>
>> All you had to do was read my original posting.
>
> I sure as HELL was not going slog through that giant block of text.
>
> Do you mean HubSystem and MedSystem? Those are EXTERNAL systems, not
> part of MurderBot. There is the governor module, but that's not an AI.
>

This conversation with Dimwire strongly resembles those correcting
Fourbricks. It appears to me that he is repeating stuff you have already
refuted but I have not kept the posts.

Lynn McGuire wrote:

>Murderbot has its own HubSystem and MedSystem AIs. And the Governor
>is an AI also, why would it not be an AI ? Otherwise, Murderbot
>would be dragging around a MedSystem cabinet everywhere that it went
>to.

All of that is false. There is no HubSystem or MedSystem within
MurderBot and I challenge you to provide any evidence at all. The
governor is just an interface module that HubSystems can use. It's not
an AI.

>Everything in the Murderbot Universe has these three AIs. The
>spaceships, the medical systems, the habitats, CombatUnits, etc.
>Even the baggage bots. Otherwise you have got machinery running amok
>all over the place and then we have Skynet and Terminators killing
>everything in sight.

None of that is real. Nothing like that is mentioned anywhere in the
actual books rather than the ones you've created in your head.

Brian

Titus G wrote:

>This conversation with Dimwire strongly resembles those correcting
>Fourbricks. It appears to me that he is repeating stuff you have
>already refuted but I have not kept the posts.

Normally I don't care, because Lynn reviews books I don't read. If he
wants to get stuff wrong about post-apocolyptic road trips or whatever,
that's fine. Let someone else worry about it.

In this case, I have to take issue with his imaginary AIs.

Brian

On 7/19/2023 6:01 PM, Default User wrote:
> Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
>
>> Murderbot has its own HubSystem and MedSystem AIs. And the Governor
>> is an AI also, why would it not be an AI ? Otherwise, Murderbot
>> would be dragging around a MedSystem cabinet everywhere that it went
>> to.
>
> All of that is false. There is no HubSystem or MedSystem within
> MurderBot and I challenge you to provide any evidence at all. The
> governor is just an interface module that HubSystems can use. It's not
> an AI.
>
>> Everything in the Murderbot Universe has these three AIs. The
>> spaceships, the medical systems, the habitats, CombatUnits, etc.
>> Even the baggage bots. Otherwise you have got machinery running amok
>> all over the place and then we have Skynet and Terminators killing
>> everything in sight.
>
> None of that is real. Nothing like that is mentioned anywhere in the
> actual books rather than the ones you've created in your head.
>
>
> Brian

Please reread chapter one of "All Systems Red" and tell me where
MedSystem and HubSystem are when the sandworm attacks. Sorry, I have
the dead tree version of the book, not the ebook so I cannot easily quote.

It really does not matter though, I am not going to change my mind on
this easily.

Lynn

Lynn McGuire wrote:

>Murderbot has its own HubSystem and MedSystem AIs. And the Governor
>is an AI also, why would it not be an AI ? Otherwise, Murderbot
>would be dragging around a MedSystem cabinet everywhere that it went
>to.

Here's an example. In Network Effect, when Murderbot is dealing with a
dying person (I don't want to give too many spoilers) and they don't
trust the ship's MedSystem and have to use an emergency kit:

"The kit was trying to be helpful but it was nothing like a MedSystem
sliding into my feed with everything I needed to know right there."

Without a MedSystem to connect via the feed, Murderbot has no medical
knowledge. Certainly NOT an internal AI MedSystem of its own.

This is the advantage of reading e-books instead of "well-printed
paperbacks". I can search through the books and find the actual
information.

Brian

On 2023-07-19, Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7/19/2023 6:01 PM, Default User wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Murderbot has its own HubSystem and MedSystem AIs. And the Governor
>>> is an AI also, why would it not be an AI ? Otherwise, Murderbot
>>> would be dragging around a MedSystem cabinet everywhere that it went
>>> to.
>>
>> All of that is false. There is no HubSystem or MedSystem within
>> MurderBot and I challenge you to provide any evidence at all. The
>> governor is just an interface module that HubSystems can use. It's not
>> an AI.
>>
>>> Everything in the Murderbot Universe has these three AIs. The
>>> spaceships, the medical systems, the habitats, CombatUnits, etc.
>>> Even the baggage bots. Otherwise you have got machinery running amok
>>> all over the place and then we have Skynet and Terminators killing
>>> everything in sight.
>>
>> None of that is real. Nothing like that is mentioned anywhere in the
>> actual books rather than the ones you've created in your head.
>>
>>
>> Brian
>
> Please reread chapter one of "All Systems Red" and tell me where
> MedSystem and HubSystem are when the sandworm attacks. Sorry, I have
> the dead tree version of the book, not the ebook so I cannot easily quote.
>
> It really does not matter though, I am not going to change my mind on
> this easily.

In "All Systems Red", HubSystem and presumably MedSystem are attached
to the habitat, not Murderbot. Murderbot brought up Hubsystem when he
set up the habitat.

They (including Murderbot) all lose contact with HubSystem when they
were on their expedition and had the satellite connection go down,
cutting the communication with the habitat.

The Govenor may or may not be powerful enough to be called an AI. It
can certainly issue commands on its own volition, so is more powerful
than just an interface.

Chris

On 7/19/2023 11:14 PM, Chris Buckley wrote:
> On 2023-07-19, Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 7/19/2023 6:01 PM, Default User wrote:
>>> Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Murderbot has its own HubSystem and MedSystem AIs. And the Governor
>>>> is an AI also, why would it not be an AI ? Otherwise, Murderbot
>>>> would be dragging around a MedSystem cabinet everywhere that it went
>>>> to.
>>>
>>> All of that is false. There is no HubSystem or MedSystem within
>>> MurderBot and I challenge you to provide any evidence at all. The
>>> governor is just an interface module that HubSystems can use. It's not
>>> an AI.
>>>
>>>> Everything in the Murderbot Universe has these three AIs. The
>>>> spaceships, the medical systems, the habitats, CombatUnits, etc.
>>>> Even the baggage bots. Otherwise you have got machinery running amok
>>>> all over the place and then we have Skynet and Terminators killing
>>>> everything in sight.
>>>
>>> None of that is real. Nothing like that is mentioned anywhere in the
>>> actual books rather than the ones you've created in your head.
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian
>>
>> Please reread chapter one of "All Systems Red" and tell me where
>> MedSystem and HubSystem are when the sandworm attacks. Sorry, I have
>> the dead tree version of the book, not the ebook so I cannot easily quote.
>>
>> It really does not matter though, I am not going to change my mind on
>> this easily.
>
> In "All Systems Red", HubSystem and presumably MedSystem are attached
> to the habitat, not Murderbot. Murderbot brought up Hubsystem when he
> set up the habitat.
>
> They (including Murderbot) all lose contact with HubSystem when they
> were on their expedition and had the satellite connection go down,
> cutting the communication with the habitat.
>
> The Govenor may or may not be powerful enough to be called an AI. It
> can certainly issue commands on its own volition, so is more powerful
> than just an interface.
>
> Chris

When ART operates on Murderbot to remove 2 cm of height, to get its skin
to grow hair, to grow the hair longer on its head, and to disable the
augmentation port, in "Artificial Condition", Murderbot's MedSystem
continuously updates Murderbot on the status of the regrowth. ART's
medical system is built for humans, not SecUnits. Murderbot's MedSystem
has total control over the artery and vein clamps at all times, this is
not offloaded to another AI possibly hundreds or thousands of miles away.

Murderbot's HubSystem is in continuous threat analysis for both local
and remote systems. Like I said, the Habitat has a HubSystem also.

As mentioned several times in the books, SecUnits are very expensive.
That expense not includes a metal skeleton and clone human brain, it
includes human skin and multiple AI computer support with many built in
sensors and cameras. That means extensive simultaneous image
processing. Very expensive. And not subject to offloading that is
easily disrupted.

Lynn

On Thursday, 20 July 2023 at 19:52:35 UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 7/19/2023 11:14 PM, Chris Buckley wrote:
> > On 2023-07-19, Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On 7/19/2023 6:01 PM, Default User wrote:
> >>> Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Murderbot has its own HubSystem and MedSystem AIs. And the Governor
> >>>> is an AI also, why would it not be an AI ? Otherwise, Murderbot
> >>>> would be dragging around a MedSystem cabinet everywhere that it went
> >>>> to.
> >>>
> >>> All of that is false. There is no HubSystem or MedSystem within
> >>> MurderBot and I challenge you to provide any evidence at all. The
> >>> governor is just an interface module that HubSystems can use. It's not
> >>> an AI.
> >>>
> >>>> Everything in the Murderbot Universe has these three AIs. The
> >>>> spaceships, the medical systems, the habitats, CombatUnits, etc.
> >>>> Even the baggage bots. Otherwise you have got machinery running amok
> >>>> all over the place and then we have Skynet and Terminators killing
> >>>> everything in sight.
> >>>
> >>> None of that is real. Nothing like that is mentioned anywhere in the
> >>> actual books rather than the ones you've created in your head.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Brian
> >>
> >> Please reread chapter one of "All Systems Red" and tell me where
> >> MedSystem and HubSystem are when the sandworm attacks. Sorry, I have
> >> the dead tree version of the book, not the ebook so I cannot easily quote.
> >>
> >> It really does not matter though, I am not going to change my mind on
> >> this easily.
> >
> > In "All Systems Red", HubSystem and presumably MedSystem are attached
> > to the habitat, not Murderbot. Murderbot brought up Hubsystem when he
> > set up the habitat.
> >
> > They (including Murderbot) all lose contact with HubSystem when they
> > were on their expedition and had the satellite connection go down,
> > cutting the communication with the habitat.
> >
> > The Govenor may or may not be powerful enough to be called an AI. It
> > can certainly issue commands on its own volition, so is more powerful
> > than just an interface.
> >
> > Chris
> When ART operates on Murderbot to remove 2 cm of height, to get its skin
> to grow hair, to grow the hair longer on its head, and to disable the
> augmentation port, in "Artificial Condition", Murderbot's MedSystem
> continuously updates Murderbot on the status of the regrowth. ART's
> medical system is built for humans, not SecUnits. Murderbot's MedSystem
> has total control over the artery and vein clamps at all times, this is
> not offloaded to another AI possibly hundreds or thousands of miles away.
>
> Murderbot's HubSystem is in continuous threat analysis for both local
> and remote systems. Like I said, the Habitat has a HubSystem also.
>
> As mentioned several times in the books, SecUnits are very expensive.
> That expense not includes a metal skeleton and clone human brain, it
> includes human skin and multiple AI computer support with many built in
> sensors and cameras. That means extensive simultaneous image
> processing. Very expensive. And not subject to offloading that is
> easily disrupted.

Conceivably a "Medsystem" for a SecUnit and a "MedSystem"
to direct treatment of a human being are different systems.

Lynn McGuire wrote:

>Please reread chapter one of "All Systems Red" and tell me where
>MedSystem and HubSystem are when the sandworm attacks. Sorry, I have
>the dead tree version of the book, not the ebook so I cannot easily
>quote.
>
>It really does not matter though, I am not going to change my mind on
>this easily.

Those are in the installation. They communicate through "the feed". The
compromised HubSystem tries to give Murderbot an abort command that is
ignored.

"Conflicting commands filled my feed but I didn’t pay attention. Even
if I hadn’t borked my own governor module, the emergency feed took
priority, and it was chaotic, too, with the automated HubSystem wanting
data and trying to send me data I didn’t need yet and Mensah sending me
telemetry from the hopper. Which I also didn’t need, but it was easier
to ignore than HubSystem simultaneously demanding answers and trying to
supply them."

That is the one and only HubSystem, then one back at base. This
internal one is your imagination.

"I was mainly interested in what the MedSystem was trying to tell me on
the emergency feed. But first I needed to get her out of the crater."

Same here. The MedSystem is back in base and giving information over
the feed. It's not some internal thing.

Brian

Chris Buckley wrote:

>The Govenor may or may not be powerful enough to be called an AI. It
>can certainly issue commands on its own volition, so is more powerful
>than just an interface.

That's a fair point, and in Network Effect Murderbot said, when
discussing the automatic kill function:

“Dead clients don’t count. Otherwise you could just kill one and carry
them around with you.” Okay, for real, that wouldn’t work. The governor
module wasn’t nearly as sophisticated as a HubSystem but even it could
have figured that one out.

Brian

Lynn McGuire wrote:

>When ART operates on Murderbot to remove 2 cm of height, to get its
>skin to grow hair, to grow the hair longer on its head, and to
>disable the augmentation port, in "Artificial Condition", Murderbot's
>MedSystem continuously updates Murderbot on the status of the
>regrowth. A

Please provide the text (not your paraphrase) that supports this.

Brian

Robert Carnegie wrote:

>Conceivably a "Medsystem" for a SecUnit and a "MedSystem"
>to direct treatment of a human being are different systems.

But there is no such thing. In Network Effect, when they didn't want to
use ART's MedSystem, Murderbot took instructions from an emergency kit.

Brian

On 2023-07-21, Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, 20 July 2023 at 19:52:35 UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 7/19/2023 11:14 PM, Chris Buckley wrote:
>> > On 2023-07-19, Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> On 7/19/2023 6:01 PM, Default User wrote:
>> >>> Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> Murderbot has its own HubSystem and MedSystem AIs. And the Governor
>> >>>> is an AI also, why would it not be an AI ? Otherwise, Murderbot
>> >>>> would be dragging around a MedSystem cabinet everywhere that it went
>> >>>> to.
>> >>>
>> >>> All of that is false. There is no HubSystem or MedSystem within
>> >>> MurderBot and I challenge you to provide any evidence at all. The
>> >>> governor is just an interface module that HubSystems can use. It's not
>> >>> an AI.
>> >>>
>> >>>> Everything in the Murderbot Universe has these three AIs. The
>> >>>> spaceships, the medical systems, the habitats, CombatUnits, etc.
>> >>>> Even the baggage bots. Otherwise you have got machinery running amok
>> >>>> all over the place and then we have Skynet and Terminators killing
>> >>>> everything in sight.
>> >>>
>> >>> None of that is real. Nothing like that is mentioned anywhere in the
>> >>> actual books rather than the ones you've created in your head.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Brian
>> >>
>> >> Please reread chapter one of "All Systems Red" and tell me where
>> >> MedSystem and HubSystem are when the sandworm attacks. Sorry, I have
>> >> the dead tree version of the book, not the ebook so I cannot easily quote.
>> >>
>> >> It really does not matter though, I am not going to change my mind on
>> >> this easily.
>> >
>> > In "All Systems Red", HubSystem and presumably MedSystem are attached
>> > to the habitat, not Murderbot. Murderbot brought up Hubsystem when he
>> > set up the habitat.
>> >
>> > They (including Murderbot) all lose contact with HubSystem when they
>> > were on their expedition and had the satellite connection go down,
>> > cutting the communication with the habitat.
>> >
>> > The Govenor may or may not be powerful enough to be called an AI. It
>> > can certainly issue commands on its own volition, so is more powerful
>> > than just an interface.
>> >
>> > Chris
>> When ART operates on Murderbot to remove 2 cm of height, to get its skin
>> to grow hair, to grow the hair longer on its head, and to disable the
>> augmentation port, in "Artificial Condition", Murderbot's MedSystem
>> continuously updates Murderbot on the status of the regrowth. ART's
>> medical system is built for humans, not SecUnits. Murderbot's MedSystem
>> has total control over the artery and vein clamps at all times, this is
>> not offloaded to another AI possibly hundreds or thousands of miles away.
>>
>> Murderbot's HubSystem is in continuous threat analysis for both local
>> and remote systems. Like I said, the Habitat has a HubSystem also.
>>
>> As mentioned several times in the books, SecUnits are very expensive.
>> That expense not includes a metal skeleton and clone human brain, it
>> includes human skin and multiple AI computer support with many built in
>> sensors and cameras. That means extensive simultaneous image
>> processing. Very expensive. And not subject to offloading that is
>> easily disrupted.
>
> Conceivably a "Medsystem" for a SecUnit and a "MedSystem"
> to direct treatment of a human being are different systems.

I re-read _All Systems Red_ and again I find no support for the case
that there are MedSystems and HubSystems private to MurderBot. Every
reference that can be "located" attaches them firmly to the habitat,
and all the rest could be the habitat. It would be very bad writing
if those references were ambiguous.

Chris

On 7/29/2023 9:26 PM, Chris Buckley wrote:
> On 2023-07-21, Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>> On Thursday, 20 July 2023 at 19:52:35 UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 7/19/2023 11:14 PM, Chris Buckley wrote:
>>>> On 2023-07-19, Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 7/19/2023 6:01 PM, Default User wrote:
>>>>>> Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Murderbot has its own HubSystem and MedSystem AIs. And the Governor
>>>>>>> is an AI also, why would it not be an AI ? Otherwise, Murderbot
>>>>>>> would be dragging around a MedSystem cabinet everywhere that it went
>>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All of that is false. There is no HubSystem or MedSystem within
>>>>>> MurderBot and I challenge you to provide any evidence at all. The
>>>>>> governor is just an interface module that HubSystems can use. It's not
>>>>>> an AI.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Everything in the Murderbot Universe has these three AIs. The
>>>>>>> spaceships, the medical systems, the habitats, CombatUnits, etc.
>>>>>>> Even the baggage bots. Otherwise you have got machinery running amok
>>>>>>> all over the place and then we have Skynet and Terminators killing
>>>>>>> everything in sight.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> None of that is real. Nothing like that is mentioned anywhere in the
>>>>>> actual books rather than the ones you've created in your head.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>
>>>>> Please reread chapter one of "All Systems Red" and tell me where
>>>>> MedSystem and HubSystem are when the sandworm attacks. Sorry, I have
>>>>> the dead tree version of the book, not the ebook so I cannot easily quote.
>>>>>
>>>>> It really does not matter though, I am not going to change my mind on
>>>>> this easily.
>>>>
>>>> In "All Systems Red", HubSystem and presumably MedSystem are attached
>>>> to the habitat, not Murderbot. Murderbot brought up Hubsystem when he
>>>> set up the habitat.
>>>>
>>>> They (including Murderbot) all lose contact with HubSystem when they
>>>> were on their expedition and had the satellite connection go down,
>>>> cutting the communication with the habitat.
>>>>
>>>> The Govenor may or may not be powerful enough to be called an AI. It
>>>> can certainly issue commands on its own volition, so is more powerful
>>>> than just an interface.
>>>>
>>>> Chris
>>> When ART operates on Murderbot to remove 2 cm of height, to get its skin
>>> to grow hair, to grow the hair longer on its head, and to disable the
>>> augmentation port, in "Artificial Condition", Murderbot's MedSystem
>>> continuously updates Murderbot on the status of the regrowth. ART's
>>> medical system is built for humans, not SecUnits. Murderbot's MedSystem
>>> has total control over the artery and vein clamps at all times, this is
>>> not offloaded to another AI possibly hundreds or thousands of miles away.
>>>
>>> Murderbot's HubSystem is in continuous threat analysis for both local
>>> and remote systems. Like I said, the Habitat has a HubSystem also.
>>>
>>> As mentioned several times in the books, SecUnits are very expensive.
>>> That expense not includes a metal skeleton and clone human brain, it
>>> includes human skin and multiple AI computer support with many built in
>>> sensors and cameras. That means extensive simultaneous image
>>> processing. Very expensive. And not subject to offloading that is
>>> easily disrupted.
>>
>> Conceivably a "Medsystem" for a SecUnit and a "MedSystem"
>> to direct treatment of a human being are different systems.
>
> I re-read _All Systems Red_ and again I find no support for the case
> that there are MedSystems and HubSystems private to MurderBot. Every
> reference that can be "located" attaches them firmly to the habitat,
> and all the rest could be the habitat. It would be very bad writing
> if those references were ambiguous.
>
> Chris

Are we agreed that the Governor System is an AI ? Shoot, I don't even
know if our definitions of an AI are equivalent.

I am thinking that I mislabeled the HubSystem in the SecUnit. It should
be called SecSystem. There is something there to control all of the
drones and do image processing for danger. That is not offloaded to the
habitat because that system is running when MB is flying around in ART
and when MB is on the dangerous mine planet. There is no friendly
trustworthy system on that planet that MB would trust.

Lynn

On 2023-07-30, Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7/29/2023 9:26 PM, Chris Buckley wrote:
>> On 2023-07-21, Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>> On Thursday, 20 July 2023 at 19:52:35 UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 7/19/2023 11:14 PM, Chris Buckley wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-07-19, Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/19/2023 6:01 PM, Default User wrote:
>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Murderbot has its own HubSystem and MedSystem AIs. And the Governor
>>>>>>>> is an AI also, why would it not be an AI ? Otherwise, Murderbot
>>>>>>>> would be dragging around a MedSystem cabinet everywhere that it went
>>>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All of that is false. There is no HubSystem or MedSystem within
>>>>>>> MurderBot and I challenge you to provide any evidence at all. The
>>>>>>> governor is just an interface module that HubSystems can use. It's not
>>>>>>> an AI.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Everything in the Murderbot Universe has these three AIs. The
>>>>>>>> spaceships, the medical systems, the habitats, CombatUnits, etc.
>>>>>>>> Even the baggage bots. Otherwise you have got machinery running amok
>>>>>>>> all over the place and then we have Skynet and Terminators killing
>>>>>>>> everything in sight.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> None of that is real. Nothing like that is mentioned anywhere in the
>>>>>>> actual books rather than the ones you've created in your head.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please reread chapter one of "All Systems Red" and tell me where
>>>>>> MedSystem and HubSystem are when the sandworm attacks. Sorry, I have
>>>>>> the dead tree version of the book, not the ebook so I cannot easily quote.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It really does not matter though, I am not going to change my mind on
>>>>>> this easily.
>>>>>
>>>>> In "All Systems Red", HubSystem and presumably MedSystem are attached
>>>>> to the habitat, not Murderbot. Murderbot brought up Hubsystem when he
>>>>> set up the habitat.
>>>>>
>>>>> They (including Murderbot) all lose contact with HubSystem when they
>>>>> were on their expedition and had the satellite connection go down,
>>>>> cutting the communication with the habitat.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Govenor may or may not be powerful enough to be called an AI. It
>>>>> can certainly issue commands on its own volition, so is more powerful
>>>>> than just an interface.
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris
>>>> When ART operates on Murderbot to remove 2 cm of height, to get its skin
>>>> to grow hair, to grow the hair longer on its head, and to disable the
>>>> augmentation port, in "Artificial Condition", Murderbot's MedSystem
>>>> continuously updates Murderbot on the status of the regrowth. ART's
>>>> medical system is built for humans, not SecUnits. Murderbot's MedSystem
>>>> has total control over the artery and vein clamps at all times, this is
>>>> not offloaded to another AI possibly hundreds or thousands of miles away.
>>>>
>>>> Murderbot's HubSystem is in continuous threat analysis for both local
>>>> and remote systems. Like I said, the Habitat has a HubSystem also.
>>>>
>>>> As mentioned several times in the books, SecUnits are very expensive.
>>>> That expense not includes a metal skeleton and clone human brain, it
>>>> includes human skin and multiple AI computer support with many built in
>>>> sensors and cameras. That means extensive simultaneous image
>>>> processing. Very expensive. And not subject to offloading that is
>>>> easily disrupted.
>>>
>>> Conceivably a "Medsystem" for a SecUnit and a "MedSystem"
>>> to direct treatment of a human being are different systems.
>>
>> I re-read _All Systems Red_ and again I find no support for the case
>> that there are MedSystems and HubSystems private to MurderBot. Every
>> reference that can be "located" attaches them firmly to the habitat,
>> and all the rest could be the habitat. It would be very bad writing
>> if those references were ambiguous.
>>
>> Chris
>
> Are we agreed that the Governor System is an AI ? Shoot, I don't even
> know if our definitions of an AI are equivalent.
>
> I am thinking that I mislabeled the HubSystem in the SecUnit. It should
> be called SecSystem. There is something there to control all of the
> drones and do image processing for danger. That is not offloaded to the
> habitat because that system is running when MB is flying around in ART
> and when MB is on the dangerous mine planet. There is no friendly
> trustworthy system on that planet that MB would trust.
>
> Lynn
>

As I said in my original response, the Governor could very well be an
AI. It's hard for me to see how it couldn't be, though I could make such a
case if I needed to.

I agree that what you're calling a SecSystem probably exists to help
MurderBot. But I see no evidence that MurderBot is not in complete
control of it; no evidence that the SecSystem can have its own goals
in opposition to MurderBot's. That makes it much less likely that it
is an AI, IMO. But now we're getting into uninteresting questions of
the definition of an AI.

Chris

On 7/14/2023 5:21 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <u8sb1t$49nu$1@dont-email.me>,
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I think that AMD has a 256 core Threadripper cpu now. Or it is
>> announced. I am way behind on my Maximum PC magazine and it just went
>> out of print.
>
> (Hal Heydt)
> Not exactly. MaxPC has gone on-line only. But, then, it was
> never the same after it quite being named "boot".
>
>> I built a dual cpu Opteron system about that time also and ran a beta
>> version of Windows XP x64 on it (I don't think it ever got out of beta).
>> I had severe device driver problems for it, about a half dozen items
>> were continually screaming at me about the device drivers continuously
>> crashing. And, the fans on the Opterons were always running at full
>> speed, sounded like a helicopter taking off. I used plain old ram,
>> maybe 4 GB on it. Been a long time since I did that so some of the
>> details are sketchy now.
>
> Mine ran SuSE 64-bit Linux and did so just fine until I replaced
> it with a pair of SBCs with SSDs for mass storage (my Opteron systen
> had 3 WD Raptor 36GB 10KRPM drives). Two SBCs so I could run a
> replicated database. The current config is a pair of Pi4B-4GB
> SBCs with a 120GB SATA3 SSD each, connected to the boards over
> USB 3.
>
> Opterons didn't support non-ECC RAM.

Huh. I wonder which dual cpu AMD system that I built was ?

I have built so many systems over the years that my memory is very
cloudy on the details. I just remember dual AMD cpus and it screamed
like a banshee. The motherboard was huge. I do not remember buying ECC
ram though.

Lynn

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>On 7/14/2023 5:21 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <u8sb1t$49nu$1@dont-email.me>,
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I think that AMD has a 256 core Threadripper cpu now. Or it is
>>> announced. I am way behind on my Maximum PC magazine and it just went
>>> out of print.
>>
>> (Hal Heydt)
>> Not exactly. MaxPC has gone on-line only. But, then, it was
>> never the same after it quite being named "boot".
>>
>>> I built a dual cpu Opteron system about that time also and ran a beta
>>> version of Windows XP x64 on it (I don't think it ever got out of beta).
>>> I had severe device driver problems for it, about a half dozen items
>>> were continually screaming at me about the device drivers continuously
>>> crashing. And, the fans on the Opterons were always running at full
>>> speed, sounded like a helicopter taking off. I used plain old ram,
>>> maybe 4 GB on it. Been a long time since I did that so some of the
>>> details are sketchy now.
>>
>> Mine ran SuSE 64-bit Linux and did so just fine until I replaced
>> it with a pair of SBCs with SSDs for mass storage (my Opteron systen
>> had 3 WD Raptor 36GB 10KRPM drives). Two SBCs so I could run a
>> replicated database. The current config is a pair of Pi4B-4GB
>> SBCs with a 120GB SATA3 SSD each, connected to the boards over
>> USB 3.
>>
>> Opterons didn't support non-ECC RAM.
>
>Huh. I wonder which dual cpu AMD system that I built was ?

There are other things that can cause driver issues, like
early release drivers on a "beta version of XP".

The fans are generally controlled via the bios, using ACPI
calls - if the BIOS vendor screws up the ACPI tables, or the
ACPI driver in the Beta Windows has bugs, then the fans would
always run at full speed.

Lynn McGuire wrote:

>Are we agreed that the Governor System is an AI ? Shoot, I don't
>even know if our definitions of an AI are equivalent.

It depends on your definition of AI. It is able to take in information
and perform independent action, as noted in Network Effect. Mostly it
serves as a conduit for an external HubSystem. There's no evidence of
conciousness or personality. It's a program, one that MB could hack and
change.

>I am thinking that I mislabeled the HubSystem in the SecUnit. It
>should be called SecSystem. There is something there to control all
>of the drones and do image processing for danger.

This is again WRONG. Murderbot addresses the drone situation. It's
brain is multitracked and handles the drone control. No external system
is doing that. Let it go. It doesn't exist. Everything MB does is its
hybrid bot/human brain.

"No drones, but then humans aren’t good with security drones; it takes
multi-track processing to direct them and most humans just can’t do it
without extensive augmentation."

"I needed to copy over some specialized code from the console, but once
I had it, I could control the three diggers through the feed. I
assigned them yet another channel in my overworked brain, and stood up."

There are modules that MB uses, like Threat Assessment and Risk
Assessment, but I wouldn't consider those AIs. Especially not as we
consider them for Science Fiction stories.

Brian

Chris Buckley wrote:

>As I said in my original response, the Governor could very well be an
>AI. It's hard for me to see how it couldn't be, though I could make
>such a case if I needed to.

It doesn't take an "AI" to receive inputs and use decision criteria to
perform actions. It does work independently of Murderbot even in the
absense of a HubSystem to control it, but many programs can.

>I agree that what you're calling a SecSystem probably exists to help
>MurderBot. But I see no evidence that MurderBot is not in complete
>control of it; no evidence that the SecSystem can have its own goals
>in opposition to MurderBot's. That makes it much less likely that it
>is an AI, IMO. But now we're getting into uninteresting questions of
>the definition of an AI.

I don't agree with that. I think the text makes it clear that it's all
Murderbot's hybrid brain, which the bot portion is multi-tracked with a
lot of processing power. More importantly, when its brain is offline,
nothing much happens other than buffer reponses.

Lynn keeps assumming these "systems" in Murderbot that are never
mentioned in text, not even a suggestion. The modules that are there,
Governor, the various assessment programs, are mentioned.

Brian

In article <ua926s$3c192$2@dont-email.me>,
Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 7/14/2023 5:21 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> Opterons didn't support non-ECC RAM.
>
>Huh. I wonder which dual cpu AMD system that I built was ?

(Hal Heydt)
Probably Athlons. Same generation, but the Athlons were consumer
chips and didn't require ECC RAM.

On 7/31/2023 6:37 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <ua926s$3c192$2@dont-email.me>,
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 7/14/2023 5:21 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> Opterons didn't support non-ECC RAM.
>>
>> Huh. I wonder which dual cpu AMD system that I built was ?
>
> (Hal Heydt)
> Probably Athlons. Same generation, but the Athlons were consumer
> chips and didn't require ECC RAM.

Could be, could be.

Lynn

On Monday, 31 July 2023 at 21:23:10 UTC+1, Default User wrote:
> Chris Buckley wrote:
>
> >As I said in my original response, the Governor could very well be an
> >AI. It's hard for me to see how it couldn't be, though I could make
> >such a case if I needed to.
> It doesn't take an "AI" to receive inputs and use decision criteria to
> perform actions. It does work independently of Murderbot even in the
> absense of a HubSystem to control it, but many programs can.
> >I agree that what you're calling a SecSystem probably exists to help
> >MurderBot. But I see no evidence that MurderBot is not in complete
> >control of it; no evidence that the SecSystem can have its own goals
> >in opposition to MurderBot's. That makes it much less likely that it
> >is an AI, IMO. But now we're getting into uninteresting questions of
> >the definition of an AI.
> I don't agree with that. I think the text makes it clear that it's all
> Murderbot's hybrid brain, which the bot portion is multi-tracked with a
> lot of processing power. More importantly, when its brain is offline,
> nothing much happens other than buffer reponses.
>
> Lynn keeps assumming these "systems" in Murderbot that are never
> mentioned in text, not even a suggestion. The modules that are there,
> Governor, the various assessment programs, are mentioned.

To muddle this further, let's talk about consciousness. ;-)

The Murderbot identity that narrates the story may be
the ego, as it were, of the SecUnit.

Some other modules in the SecUnit may have another
independent consciousness. Or be not conscious,
depending on their function and need for independent
operation.

Being told what to do by the MurderBot consciousness
doesn't exclude other modules from being separate
consciousnesses.

I have functions of my body that this I doesn't control
consciously, although if I was an oriental mystic then
apparently I could. For that matter, what about driving -
in my case, cycling. Your driving mind can take you
where you weren't intending to go - or it can act on
an unconscious desire.

And this may or may not be all in one unit of hardware.

djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>In article <ua926s$3c192$2@dont-email.me>,
>Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On 7/14/2023 5:21 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> Opterons didn't support non-ECC RAM.
>>
>>Huh. I wonder which dual cpu AMD system that I built was ?
>
>(Hal Heydt)
>Probably Athlons. Same generation, but the Athlons were consumer
>chips and didn't require ECC RAM.

I don't believe there were any Athlons that supported dual sockets.

Dual core, yes. Dual socket, not that I recall.

On 1 Aug 2023 at 14:57:25 BST, "Scott Lurndal" <Scott Lurndal> wrote:

>
> djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>> In article <ua926s$3c192$2@dont-email.me>,
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 7/14/2023 5:21 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>> Opterons didn't support non-ECC RAM.
>>>
>>> Huh. I wonder which dual cpu AMD system that I built was ?
>>
>> (Hal Heydt)
>> Probably Athlons. Same generation, but the Athlons were consumer
>> chips and didn't require ECC RAM.
>
> I don't believe there were any Athlons that supported dual sockets.
>
> Dual core, yes. Dual socket, not that I recall.

Athlon MP series supported dual. Athlon XP were solo.

XPs had faster speeds and way faster front side buses, not to mention
being much cheaper.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
Homeopaths suffer from dilutions of grandeur