On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 1:58:06 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> > On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 4:43:08 PM UTC-4, vhug...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 11:29:45 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >> > On 2022-10-20 11:02 a.m., Will Dockery wrote:
> >> > > On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 10:26:43 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >> > >> On 2022-10-20 9:24 a.m., W.Dockery wrote:
> >> > >>> George J. Dance wrote:
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>> On 2022-10-19 3:35 p.m., Zod Zodly wrote:
> >> > >>>>> On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:48:09 AM UTC-4,
> >> > >>>>> george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >> > >>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>> postpoetry
> >> > >>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
> >> > >>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
> >> > >>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
> >> > >>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
> >> > >>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
> >> > >>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
> >> > >>>>>> & if a poet points that out
> >> > >>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> >> > >>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
> >> > >>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
> >> > >>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
> >> > >>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
> >> > >>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
> >> > >>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
> >> > >>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
> >> > >>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> >> > >>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
> >> > >>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
> >> > >>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>> what else to do what else to say
> >> > >>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
> >> > >>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
> >> > >>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
> >> > >>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
> >> > >>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
> >> > >>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
> >> > >>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
> >> > >>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
> >> > >>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
> >> > >>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>> ~~
> >> > >>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
> >> > >>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
> >> <...>
> >> > >> I also wanted to set the record straight on his "Nelly Black" thread,
> >> > >> reminding him that it was Michael Monkey Pendragon who equated your
> >> > >> music with the Beatles (with Ms Black's on a lower level). But I haven't
> >> > >> found the thread to cite. Perhaps you or Zod could find it for me?
> >> > snip
> >> > >
> >> > > You mean Pendragon's thread about Nelly Black, The Beatles, and so on?
> >> > Yes, of course, that one. I don't have time to look for it, so I'm
> >> > asking others on the group if they can help.
> >> Here is the , or one of the, discussions of Doc and The Beatles:
> >>
> >> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/o8t2xYy4KF8/m/fMlDkjlFBQAJ
> >>
> >> On Monday, July 22, 2019 at 5:03:21 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> > On Monday, July 22, 2019 at 3:32:22 AM UTC-4, Rod Riprock Jr. wrote:
> >> > > On Monday, November 12, 2018 at 2:22:51 PM UTC-6, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> > > > Pendragon wrote in message
> >> > >
> >> > > > >> Okay, this is interesting...
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > How many levels, grades or ratings do you have for art, music, poetry
> >> > > > > (let's
> >> > > > > just lump them all together as "art"), Pendragon?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > We know that The Beatles and myself rest on the "Decent" level..
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Pat Boone and Tiny Tim are at least one level higher, and that level is
> >> > > > > call
> >> > > > > what?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Nelly Black is at least one level lower than The Beatles and me, what
> >> > > > > level
> >> > > > > is she on?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Sandy Madaris I reckon you judge as the lowest on the totem pole, what
> >> > > > > would
> >> > > > > Sandy's level be named?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > If I had a scale, it would look something like this:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 1) Great
> >> > > > 2) Very Good
> >> > > > 3) Good
> >> > > > 4) Pretty Good
> >> > > > 5) Decent
> >> > > > 6) Passable
> >> > > > 7) Mediocre/Average
> >> > > > 8) Below Average/Subpar
> >> > > > 9) Bad
> >> > > > 10) Very Bad
> >> > > > 11) Extremely Bad
> >> > > > 12) Terrible
> >> > > > 13) Horrendous
> >> > > > 14) Bob Dylan Bad
> >> > > >
> >> > > > However, before your head starts swelling up any bigger, I should make a few
> >> > > > clarifications:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 1) Great
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On a purely vocal level, there are very few Great singers. A great singer
> >> > > > requires a large vocal range, the ability to sustain notes, the ability to
> >> > > > project, the ability to express emotions, while maintaining a distinctive
> >> > > > sound, style, and personality.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > If I played someone a record by Elvis Presley, Nat "King" Cole, Frankie
> >> > > > Laine, Frank Sinatra, Johnnie Ray, Doris Day, Johnny Mathis, Bill Kenny,
> >> > > > Mario Lanza, Jane Monheit, Crystal Gayle, Pat Boone, Kay Starr, Patsy Cline,
> >> > > > Georgia Gibbs, Judy Garland, Bing Crosby, Thurl Ravenscroft, Eddie Fisher,
> >> > > > Tiny Tim, Vaughn Monroe, Sarah Vaughan, Al Jolson, Tony Bennett, Jim Reeves,
> >> > > > Teresa Brewer, Shirley Bassey, Connie Francis, Dean Martin, Dion and other
> >> > > > greats, they would recognize them -- even if they'd never heard the song
> >> > > > before. That's what makes them great.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 2) Very Good
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Most *successful* singers fall under the Very Good category. These singers
> >> > > > have flawless voices and enough vocal personality that one can sometimes
> >> > > > recognize them; or they have recognizable, though somewhat limited or flawed
> >> > > > voices. Dinah Shore, Patti Page, Guy Mitchell, Vic Damone, Perry Como, Andy
> >> > > > Williams, Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, Gogi Grant, Kate Smith, Joni
> >> > > > James, Jane Morgan, Jaye P. Morgan, Anita Bryant, Leslie Uggams, Jimmy
> >> > > > Durante, Louis Armstrong, Sammy Davis Jr. and many others.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Note: These are all truly wonderful singers, and among my favorites.. They
> >> > > > simply fall slightly short (for one or more reasons) of the Greats.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 3) Good
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Good singers are fairly successful and highly talented, but lack definable
> >> > > > vocal characteristics in terms of vocal personality and style. Rosemary
> >> > > > Clooney, Johnny Desmond, Evelyn Knight, Margaret Whiting, June Valli, Eydie
> >> > > > Gorme, Alan Dale, Jerry Vale, etc.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 4) Pretty Good
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Pretty Good singers don't quite cut it. They might have some great records,
> >> > > > but it's not due more to the song and the arrangement than to their vocal
> >> > > > talents. Pretty good singers didn't last long where the standards are
> >> > > > concerned. Mike Douglas and Merv Griffin were pretty good big band
> >> > > > vocalists, but they're better remembered for their work as talk show hosts.
> >> > > > The majority of r'n'r singers, however, fall into this category. Again,
> >> > > > this is not to diminish their accomplishments and/or talents in any way, but
> >> > > > is simply an acknowledgement that the r'n'r form demands less from the
> >> > > > vocalist: Bill Haley, Buddy Holly, Jerry Lee Lewis, Fats Domino, Chuck
> >> > > > Berry, et al., were all pretty good singers. The same holds for the lead
> >> > > > singers of most successful later groups: Jim Morrison, John Fogerty, Eric
> >> > > > Burdon, Roger Waters, et al.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 5) Decent
> >> > > >
> >> > > > In the world of standards, there are no Decent singers. They wouldn't have
> >> > > > gotten a record deal, or a spot with a big band or a radio program.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > In the rock/post-rock era, they are legion. Decent means that while I won't
> >> > > > change the channel because of the singer's voice, I'm not listening because
> >> > > > of it, either.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Son Bono was a decent singer. Cher is very good.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 6) Passable/Mediocre/Average
> >> > > >
> >> > > > A passable singer could sing at an open mic without getting booed off the
> >> > > > stage. An average singer can sing in key, carry a tune, and hold their end
> >> > > > notes for an acceptable amount. However, there is nothing even remotely
> >> > > > unique or memorable about their voice/style/approach.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > The remaining categories represent successive degrees of badness:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 7) Below Average/Subpar
> >> > > >
> >> > > > As the header says, below average. I couldn't sit through an entire song by
> >> > > > them. They may sing a little sharp or flat, or hit an occasional sour note,
> >> > > > have a weak delivery, etc. Think Nelly Black.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 8) Bad
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I'd leave after the first 5 seconds. Michael Jackson.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > That's a joke. MJ can sing in key. Sandy the Screech Owl Madaris is bad.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 9) Very Bad
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I'd stick my fingers in my ears at the first note.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Name the lead singer of virtually any metal band or rap group. I find the
> >> > > > growling, grunting, and barking to be extremely displeasing, but I don't
> >> > > > experience any actual physical pain from it.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 10) Extremely Bad
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I'd stick my fingers in my ears at the first note and run. The Bee Gees,
> >> > > > Andy Gibb, Shaun Cassidy, disco in general.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Falsetto (disco style) is like nails on a chalkboard to me.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 12) Horrendous
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I'd scream, stick my fingers in my ears at the first note, run, and be
> >> > > > emotionally scarred for life. Janis Joplin and Joe Cocker, for example.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 13) Bob Dylan Bad
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I'd rather ram knitting needles into my eardrums than listen to his
> >> > > > whiny-assed voice.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Found in the archives, of interest...
> >> > >
> >> > > Interesting........
> >> > The earlier post is, as well:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> > It came from the "She Sleeps Tight" thread, an example:
> >> >
> >> > "Michael Pendragon" wrote in message
> >> > news:8996658e-710a-447a...@googlegroups.com...
> >> >
> >> > On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 8:36:47 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> > > On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 6:21:27 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> >> > > > On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 9:56:56 PM UTC, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Since the topic of the vocal talent of Sandy Madaris came up
> >> > > > > > > > yesterday, here is one of her duets with me, so the listeners
> >> > > > > > > > can judge for themselves:
> >> > >
> >> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LetBCcfrb8
> >> > >
> >> > > > > > > > Way Back Home" by Sandy Madaris, written with Luke Powers,
> >> > > > > > > > produced by Tommy Spurlock. From the CD Way Back Home.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > she's a screamer..tell her I told you
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > We agree. and when she's not screaming, she's shrieking. Will, tell
> >> > > > > > her to take it back to the privacy of her own bedroom.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > NG...
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > If you actually had listened to the recording, you'd know that your
> >> > > > > statement about Sandy is false.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > If you want to critique, fine, but at least review, or at least
> >> > > > > listen, to the work first?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > We did critiques in another thread. She does not have a singing voice
> >> > > > that belongs on the stage or anywhere actually. Another old person
> >> > > > looking to claim some fame in the amateur nights.
> >> > >
> >> > > I can't argue with an honest opinion, although I must say I don't often
> >> > > hear any pans of Sandy's talent.
> >> > >
> >> > > But art is subjective, after all. The least you can do, I would hoe, is
> >> > > provide a link to the recordings, so readers can listen and form their own
> >> > > opinions, NG.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > She's a really bad singer, Will. Not terrible, mind you ... but really bad.
> >> >
> >> > And I think you should know by now that my critiques are unbiased.
> >> >
> >> > I think you have a decent voice, and have said so in the past. You can stay
> >> > in key. She can't. Your voice has a nice timbre to it (once one gets past
> >> > their initial reaction to the damage from 40 years of chain-smoking), it's
> >> > not bad. It's not good, either (you mostly just talk-sing, rarely attempt
> >> > to carry a tune, and can't hold an end note to save your life), but you rate
> >> > a solid decent.
> >> >
> >> > Nelly Black's voice is okay ... if she's singing at a church social, or ...
> >> > on open mic night at the local bar. She can stay in key, and has a nice
> >> > sounding, but fatally weak, voice. "Okay" is a notch below "decent," so
> >> > you've got her beat as well ... though not by much.
> >> >
> >> > Sandy Madaris is, no doubt, a very nice woman. But she has no more vocal
> >> > talent than ... I do. She may even be a worse ... although I'm not in a
> >> > position to judge.
> >> >
> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/o8t2xYy4KF8/m/fMlDkjlFBQAJ
> >>
> >> Here is one of the conversations on the Beatles and Doc ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>
> >> Quite interesting...!
> > But do you really think that a rating of "Decent" is complimentary
> Being on the level of The Beatles definitely is.

Too bad, George. Like I said, the Donkey is undermining your attempt to protect his (cough!) reputation.