On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 3:54:56 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 1:58:06 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 4:43:08 PM UTC-4, vhug...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 11:29:45 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo..ca wrote:
> >> >> > On 2022-10-20 11:02 a.m., Will Dockery wrote:
> >> >> > > On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 10:26:43 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >> >> > >> On 2022-10-20 9:24 a.m., W.Dockery wrote:
> >> >> > >>> George J. Dance wrote:
> >> >> > >>>
> >> >> > >>>> On 2022-10-19 3:35 p.m., Zod Zodly wrote:
> >> >> > >>>>> On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:48:09 AM UTC-4,
> >> >> > >>>>> george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >> >> > >>>>>>
> >> >> > >>>>>> postpoetry
> >> >> > >>>>>>
> >> >> > >>>>>>
> >> >> > >>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
> >> >> > >>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
> >> >> > >>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
> >> >> > >>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
> >> >> > >>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
> >> >> > >>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
> >> >> > >>>>>> & if a poet points that out
> >> >> > >>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> >> >> > >>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
> >> >> > >>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
> >> >> > >>>>>>
> >> >> > >>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
> >> >> > >>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
> >> >> > >>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
> >> >> > >>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
> >> >> > >>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
> >> >> > >>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> >> >> > >>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
> >> >> > >>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
> >> >> > >>>>>>
> >> >> > >>>>>> what else to do what else to say
> >> >> > >>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
> >> >> > >>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
> >> >> > >>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
> >> >> > >>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
> >> >> > >>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
> >> >> > >>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
> >> >> > >>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
> >> >> > >>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
> >> >> > >>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
> >> >> > >>>>>>
> >> >> > >>>>>> ~~
> >> >> > >>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
> >> >> > >>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
> >> >> <...>
> >> >> > >> I also wanted to set the record straight on his "Nelly Black" thread,
> >> >> > >> reminding him that it was Michael Monkey Pendragon who equated your
> >> >> > >> music with the Beatles (with Ms Black's on a lower level). But I haven't
> >> >> > >> found the thread to cite. Perhaps you or Zod could find it for me?
> >> >> > snip
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > You mean Pendragon's thread about Nelly Black, The Beatles, and so on?
> >> >> > Yes, of course, that one. I don't have time to look for it, so I'm
> >> >> > asking others on the group if they can help.
> >> >> Here is the , or one of the, discussions of Doc and The Beatles:
> >> >>
> >> >> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/o8t2xYy4KF8/m/fMlDkjlFBQAJ
> >> >>
> >> >> On Monday, July 22, 2019 at 5:03:21 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> >> > On Monday, July 22, 2019 at 3:32:22 AM UTC-4, Rod Riprock Jr. wrote:
> >> >> > > On Monday, November 12, 2018 at 2:22:51 PM UTC-6, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> >> > > > Pendragon wrote in message
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > > >> Okay, this is interesting...
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > How many levels, grades or ratings do you have for art, music, poetry
> >> >> > > > > (let's
> >> >> > > > > just lump them all together as "art"), Pendragon?
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > We know that The Beatles and myself rest on the "Decent" level..
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > Pat Boone and Tiny Tim are at least one level higher, and that level is
> >> >> > > > > call
> >> >> > > > > what?
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > Nelly Black is at least one level lower than The Beatles and me, what
> >> >> > > > > level
> >> >> > > > > is she on?
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > Sandy Madaris I reckon you judge as the lowest on the totem pole, what
> >> >> > > > > would
> >> >> > > > > Sandy's level be named?
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > If I had a scale, it would look something like this:
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 1) Great
> >> >> > > > 2) Very Good
> >> >> > > > 3) Good
> >> >> > > > 4) Pretty Good
> >> >> > > > 5) Decent
> >> >> > > > 6) Passable
> >> >> > > > 7) Mediocre/Average
> >> >> > > > 8) Below Average/Subpar
> >> >> > > > 9) Bad
> >> >> > > > 10) Very Bad
> >> >> > > > 11) Extremely Bad
> >> >> > > > 12) Terrible
> >> >> > > > 13) Horrendous
> >> >> > > > 14) Bob Dylan Bad
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > However, before your head starts swelling up any bigger, I should make a few
> >> >> > > > clarifications:
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 1) Great
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > On a purely vocal level, there are very few Great singers. A great singer
> >> >> > > > requires a large vocal range, the ability to sustain notes, the ability to
> >> >> > > > project, the ability to express emotions, while maintaining a distinctive
> >> >> > > > sound, style, and personality.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > If I played someone a record by Elvis Presley, Nat "King" Cole, Frankie
> >> >> > > > Laine, Frank Sinatra, Johnnie Ray, Doris Day, Johnny Mathis, Bill Kenny,
> >> >> > > > Mario Lanza, Jane Monheit, Crystal Gayle, Pat Boone, Kay Starr, Patsy Cline,
> >> >> > > > Georgia Gibbs, Judy Garland, Bing Crosby, Thurl Ravenscroft, Eddie Fisher,
> >> >> > > > Tiny Tim, Vaughn Monroe, Sarah Vaughan, Al Jolson, Tony Bennett, Jim Reeves,
> >> >> > > > Teresa Brewer, Shirley Bassey, Connie Francis, Dean Martin, Dion and other
> >> >> > > > greats, they would recognize them -- even if they'd never heard the song
> >> >> > > > before. That's what makes them great.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 2) Very Good
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Most *successful* singers fall under the Very Good category. These singers
> >> >> > > > have flawless voices and enough vocal personality that one can sometimes
> >> >> > > > recognize them; or they have recognizable, though somewhat limited or flawed
> >> >> > > > voices. Dinah Shore, Patti Page, Guy Mitchell, Vic Damone, Perry Como, Andy
> >> >> > > > Williams, Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, Gogi Grant, Kate Smith, Joni
> >> >> > > > James, Jane Morgan, Jaye P. Morgan, Anita Bryant, Leslie Uggams, Jimmy
> >> >> > > > Durante, Louis Armstrong, Sammy Davis Jr. and many others.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Note: These are all truly wonderful singers, and among my favorites.. They
> >> >> > > > simply fall slightly short (for one or more reasons) of the Greats.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 3) Good
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Good singers are fairly successful and highly talented, but lack definable
> >> >> > > > vocal characteristics in terms of vocal personality and style.. Rosemary
> >> >> > > > Clooney, Johnny Desmond, Evelyn Knight, Margaret Whiting, June Valli, Eydie
> >> >> > > > Gorme, Alan Dale, Jerry Vale, etc.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 4) Pretty Good
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Pretty Good singers don't quite cut it. They might have some great records,
> >> >> > > > but it's not due more to the song and the arrangement than to their vocal
> >> >> > > > talents. Pretty good singers didn't last long where the standards are
> >> >> > > > concerned. Mike Douglas and Merv Griffin were pretty good big band
> >> >> > > > vocalists, but they're better remembered for their work as talk show hosts.
> >> >> > > > The majority of r'n'r singers, however, fall into this category. Again,
> >> >> > > > this is not to diminish their accomplishments and/or talents in any way, but
> >> >> > > > is simply an acknowledgement that the r'n'r form demands less from the
> >> >> > > > vocalist: Bill Haley, Buddy Holly, Jerry Lee Lewis, Fats Domino, Chuck
> >> >> > > > Berry, et al., were all pretty good singers. The same holds for the lead
> >> >> > > > singers of most successful later groups: Jim Morrison, John Fogerty, Eric
> >> >> > > > Burdon, Roger Waters, et al.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 5) Decent
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > In the world of standards, there are no Decent singers. They wouldn't have
> >> >> > > > gotten a record deal, or a spot with a big band or a radio program.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > In the rock/post-rock era, they are legion. Decent means that while I won't
> >> >> > > > change the channel because of the singer's voice, I'm not listening because
> >> >> > > > of it, either.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Son Bono was a decent singer. Cher is very good.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 6) Passable/Mediocre/Average
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > A passable singer could sing at an open mic without getting booed off the
> >> >> > > > stage. An average singer can sing in key, carry a tune, and hold their end
> >> >> > > > notes for an acceptable amount. However, there is nothing even remotely
> >> >> > > > unique or memorable about their voice/style/approach.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > The remaining categories represent successive degrees of badness:
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 7) Below Average/Subpar
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > As the header says, below average. I couldn't sit through an entire song by
> >> >> > > > them. They may sing a little sharp or flat, or hit an occasional sour note,
> >> >> > > > have a weak delivery, etc. Think Nelly Black.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 8) Bad
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > I'd leave after the first 5 seconds. Michael Jackson.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > That's a joke. MJ can sing in key. Sandy the Screech Owl Madaris is bad.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 9) Very Bad
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > I'd stick my fingers in my ears at the first note.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Name the lead singer of virtually any metal band or rap group.. I find the
> >> >> > > > growling, grunting, and barking to be extremely displeasing, but I don't
> >> >> > > > experience any actual physical pain from it.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 10) Extremely Bad
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > I'd stick my fingers in my ears at the first note and run. The Bee Gees,
> >> >> > > > Andy Gibb, Shaun Cassidy, disco in general.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Falsetto (disco style) is like nails on a chalkboard to me.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 12) Horrendous
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > I'd scream, stick my fingers in my ears at the first note, run, and be
> >> >> > > > emotionally scarred for life. Janis Joplin and Joe Cocker, for example.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 13) Bob Dylan Bad
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > I'd rather ram knitting needles into my eardrums than listen to his
> >> >> > > > whiny-assed voice.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Found in the archives, of interest...
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Interesting........
> >> >> > The earlier post is, as well:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> >
> >> >> > It came from the "She Sleeps Tight" thread, an example:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "Michael Pendragon" wrote in message
> >> >> > news:8996658e-710a-447a...@googlegroups.com...
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 8:36:47 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> >> > > On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 6:21:27 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> >> >> > > > On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 9:56:56 PM UTC, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > > Since the topic of the vocal talent of Sandy Madaris came up
> >> >> > > > > > > > yesterday, here is one of her duets with me, so the listeners
> >> >> > > > > > > > can judge for themselves:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LetBCcfrb8
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > > > > > > Way Back Home" by Sandy Madaris, written with Luke Powers,
> >> >> > > > > > > > produced by Tommy Spurlock. From the CD Way Back Home..
> >> >> > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > she's a screamer..tell her I told you
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > We agree. and when she's not screaming, she's shrieking. Will, tell
> >> >> > > > > > her to take it back to the privacy of her own bedroom.
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > NG...
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > If you actually had listened to the recording, you'd know that your
> >> >> > > > > statement about Sandy is false.
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > If you want to critique, fine, but at least review, or at least
> >> >> > > > > listen, to the work first?
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > We did critiques in another thread. She does not have a singing voice
> >> >> > > > that belongs on the stage or anywhere actually. Another old person
> >> >> > > > looking to claim some fame in the amateur nights.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > I can't argue with an honest opinion, although I must say I don't often
> >> >> > > hear any pans of Sandy's talent.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > But art is subjective, after all. The least you can do, I would hoe, is
> >> >> > > provide a link to the recordings, so readers can listen and form their own
> >> >> > > opinions, NG.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > She's a really bad singer, Will. Not terrible, mind you ... but really bad.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > And I think you should know by now that my critiques are unbiased..
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I think you have a decent voice, and have said so in the past. You can stay
> >> >> > in key. She can't. Your voice has a nice timbre to it (once one gets past
> >> >> > their initial reaction to the damage from 40 years of chain-smoking), it's
> >> >> > not bad. It's not good, either (you mostly just talk-sing, rarely attempt
> >> >> > to carry a tune, and can't hold an end note to save your life), but you rate
> >> >> > a solid decent.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Nelly Black's voice is okay ... if she's singing at a church social, or ...
> >> >> > on open mic night at the local bar. She can stay in key, and has a nice
> >> >> > sounding, but fatally weak, voice. "Okay" is a notch below "decent," so
> >> >> > you've got her beat as well ... though not by much.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Sandy Madaris is, no doubt, a very nice woman. But she has no more vocal
> >> >> > talent than ... I do. She may even be a worse ... although I'm not in a
> >> >> > position to judge.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/o8t2xYy4KF8/m/fMlDkjlFBQAJ
> >> >>
> >> >> Here is one of the conversations on the Beatles and Doc ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> >>
> >> >> Quite interesting...!
> >> > But do you really think that a rating of "Decent" is complimentary
> >> Being on the level of The Beatles definitely is.
>
> > Too bad, George. Like I said, the Donkey is undermining your attempt to protect his (cough!) reputation.
> You're clueless about The Beatles, that's what we're seeing here.

My daughter needs a new phonograph.
She wore out all the needles.
Besides, I broke the old one in half.
I hate the Beatles.

She says they have a Liverpool beat.
She says they used to play there.
Four nice kids from offa the street.
Why didn't they stay there?

What is all the screaming about?
Fainting and swooning.
Sounds to me like their guitars
Could use a little tuning.

The boys are from the British Empire.
The British think they're keen.
If that is what the British desire,
God Save The Queen.

No daughter of mine can push me around.
In my home I'm the master.
But when the British come to town,
Gad, what a disaster.

Little girls in sneakers and jeans.
Destroyed the territory.
'Twas like some of the gorier scenes
From The West Side Story.

Of course my daughter had to go there.
The tickets are cheap, she hollers.
I was able to pick up a pair
For forty-seven dollars.

When the Beatles come on stage,
They scream and shriek and cheer them.
Now I know why they're such a rage,
It's impossible to hear them.

Ringo is the one with the drum,
The others all play with him.
It shows you what a boy can become
Without a sense of rhythm.

There's Beatle book and T-shirts and rings,
And one thing and another.
To buy my daughter all of those things,
I had to sell her brother.

Back in 1776
We fought the British then, folks.
Parents of America,
It's time to do it again, folks.

When they come back, here's how we'll begin,
We'll throw 'em in Boston harbor.
But please, before we toss 'em all in,
Let's take 'em to a barber.

-- Allan Sherman, "Pop Hates the Beatles."