On 2022-11-02 11:38 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 11:10:16 AM UTC-4,
george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> On 2022-11-02 10:25 a.m., Will Dockery wrote:
>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2022-11-02 9:03 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 12:04:09 AM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
>>>>>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:25:28 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 2:11:38 PM UTC-4,
Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 12:59:44 PM UTC-4, Will
Dockery wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 5:51:34 AM
UTC, george....@yahoo.ca wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> postpoetry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a poet points that out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what else to do what else to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance don't need no stinkin' commas.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It isn't about what George Dance needs,
"Professor"; it's about what the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speaker of the poem needs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The speaker in your poem is not "a muse."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never said he was. Where did you get the
idea the speaker might be a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> muse?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If poetry is meant to be read aloud, how does
your lack of punctuation help your poem?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Use the line and stanza breaks. That's what
they're there for.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You did not address the visual demand for six
ampersands..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's just part of the style. "and" is replaced
by &.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does the speaker say "ampersand" in each line?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, "Professor,", an ampersand is pronounced
"and." I can understand you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not knowing that, but it's something you could
have Googled.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me quote (from memory) from Karla,
another wannabe online poetry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> teacher we once had here:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Do not confuse the speaker of the poem with
the writer of the poem.."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That saying has been used too much here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not enough, considering how many tend to
forget it so often.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The poem still represents your attempt at
creativity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, good; you haven't started calling it
"plagiarized" yet..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Should she have?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be a typical NancyGene troll stunt, yes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't ask if she would have (in your paranoid
opinion), but *should* she have.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance is known (with or without
justification) for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's just a smear from PJR, Pen, you know that.....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pendragon damned well knows it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That only accounts for one of the accusations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both Jim and I were victims of another form of
literary theft when George Dance refused to remove our poetry from his
website and posted out of context quotes by us in his wiki.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not plagiarism, though.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What part of "another form" are you failing to comprehend?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance did, otoh, plagiarize "Batty's Hat" from
PJR. And you know that, as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it was a parody, satire of PJR.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fair use.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Exactly, you nailed that onme, Doc...!
>>>>>>>>>>>> Obvious, probably even to PJR himself.
>>>>>>>>>>> Obviously not, since PJR accused George Dance of having
plagiarized it from him.
>>>>>>>>>> I didn't say PJR would admit it, little monkey.
>>>>>>>>> Was George's "Penny's Hat" blog a satire as well, Donkey?
>>>>>>>> I don't remember, we should ask George Dance, little monkey.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you like. I do remember reading PJR's accusation, and
finding it disturbingly convincing.
>>>>>> Your memory is not well known to be very trustworthy, Pen.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am known for having an exceptional memory, Stink.
>>>>>
>>>>> I could easily find and repost PJR's accusation, but I doubt that
George Dance would be happy about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also doubt that George Dance appreciates how you and your
Donkey insist on pressing the issue. As previously noted, I don't
believe that George Dance intentionally set out to plagiarize PJR.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, that is precisely what he did
>>>
>>>
>>>> No, that was a false accusation of PJ Ross's (and, now, yours). The
>>>> alleged plagiaized poem that PJ Ross claimed I'd posted never existed.
>>>> When that was not just pointed out but proven, he simply made up a
story
>>>> that I'd "deleted" it (not just from Google groups, but from all of
>>>> usenet).
>>>
>>>
>>>>> , and raking it over the coals, yet another time, does nothing to
improve his reputation.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Actually, I think allowing bogus allegations like the above one go
>>>> unanswered would be far worse for my reputation.
>>>
>>> Yes, correct the lies and misrepresentations and set the record
straight, in other words.
>>>
>> Indeed. I don't get to do that with the Chimp's stories about you (since
>> you don't want me writing the details of your life), or of Michael's
>> false story about Ilya (since he doesn't want me writing about that) --
>
> I didn't make up the story about Ilya.

You took a reported story and changed the details. And, that's all I'll
say about that, since (due to you) Ilya doesn't want me giving details.

> And I have repeatedly argued that we'll never be able to know whether
it is true.
>
No, that is not true. I remember you telling the Ashtroll the story
about it yourself -- and you never told him that you didn't know whether
it was true or not. You just presented it to him as a true story.

>> but there's no reason I or anyone else) should let either of them get
>> away with writing the same kind of bullshit about me in false hope
>> they'll stop someday.
>
> A comparison of the two poems shows that "Betty's" and "Penny's" hats
are nearly word-for-word rip-offs of "Batty's."
>
Then what's stopping you from comparing the two poems? So far, all
you've done is compare PJ's "poem" to a lines in an early draft that I
didn't even write (Ray wrote them, with one word change by Will), and
just tried to pass that off as my poem. As I told you, try again.

> I have defended your unattributed posting of Leonard Cohen's poem on
several occasions, and still maintain that you were not attempting to
pass it off as your own. > But your theft of "Batty's Hat" is undeniable.
>

Wrong. Go back and read my actual poem (or at least the lines in it that
you claim are 'plagiarized'. They're all substantially different.

> I can only conclude that you are as delusional as a Donkey regarding it.
>
I'll remind you that PJ Ross not only claimed that "Penny" was
plagiarized, but gave me an ultimatum to remove it from my blog or he'd
go to Google (which hosts the site). I refused, and we stared it out
eyeball-to-eyeball, until he finally blinked and admitted that "Penny"
was substantially different from his "poem".

So according to you, he was also "delusional as a Donkey". So was Ray,
of course, since he never even claimed my poem was "plagiarized.

Tell me: Is there anyone besides you that you think is not "delusional
as a Donkey" on the subject?