On 06/11/2023 15:51, Theo wrote:

>> ebac make and sell washing m/c's that can have hot and
>> cold input. I have posted this before, but for some reason
>> ebac don't seem to market them very well and few white
>> goods dealers seem to be aware of them.
>
> Are they any good? I see various 'buy British' marketing but wonder how
> they compare with the competition.

On their Facebook adverts there seems to be an overly high percentage of
comments about the spin speed being super sensitive.

Ebac say the spin speed always reduces to prevent damage from an uneven
load but to me it might appear their drum balance sensors might be too
cautious and/or their drum suspension and concrete counterbalance might
not be beefy enough as so many people say their washing comes out wet.

That said, if I had to replace the Hotpoint bought for my mother and now
in use at home (and so far very good) or the Miele which must be 15+
years old now any unlikely to need replacing for a long time, I would be
tempted to give the hot-fill Ebac machie a go as the home W/Machine sits
right next to the thermal store so only about 1500mm of 22mm pipe
between the two.

:)

On 6 Nov 2023 at 18:56:35 GMT, Theo wrote:

> RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
>> If it's anything like my combi, that initial slug can be the best part of
>> the water needed for the wash - taking up to a minute before hot water
>> comes through.
>
> Let's do some numbers on this. Suppose the initial fill is 10 litres from a
> 15mm pipe. If your fill takes a minute your flow rate would be 10
> litres/min which is what mine is, so sounds about right.
>
> CSA is pi r^2, so 0.75*0.75*3.14 = 1.76 cm2
>
> 10 litres thus needs 10000 / 1.76 = 5681 cm = 56.81m of pipe run
>
> I wonder who has a 56m pipe run from the hot water cylinder in their house?
> Mine is about 7m.
>

Um. I can see that's the volume of the pipe. But this is flow - 10l/min. So 10
litres of water, plus the water already in the pipe between the heat source
and the washing machine, has been through the pipe in that one minute.

Unless I'm very much mistaken; distinctly possible :-)

--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK

RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
> On 6 Nov 2023 at 18:56:35 GMT, Theo wrote:
>
> > RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
> >> If it's anything like my combi, that initial slug can be the best part of
> >> the water needed for the wash - taking up to a minute before hot water
> >> comes through.
> >
> > Let's do some numbers on this. Suppose the initial fill is 10 litres from a
> > 15mm pipe. If your fill takes a minute your flow rate would be 10
> > litres/min which is what mine is, so sounds about right.
> >
> > CSA is pi r^2, so 0.75*0.75*3.14 = 1.76 cm2
> >
> > 10 litres thus needs 10000 / 1.76 = 5681 cm = 56.81m of pipe run
> >
> > I wonder who has a 56m pipe run from the hot water cylinder in their house?
> > Mine is about 7m.
> >
>
> Um. I can see that's the volume of the pipe. But this is flow - 10l/min. So 10
> litres of water, plus the water already in the pipe between the heat source
> and the washing machine, has been through the pipe in that one minute.
>
> Unless I'm very much mistaken; distinctly possible :-)

The question was whether the hot water would come from that sitting around
in the pipe, or from the cylinder. If you draw 10 litres to do your wash,
for that all to come from the pipe it would have to be 57m long. In my case
the pipe is 7m, so that's 7/57=12% from the pipe and 88% from the cylinder,
ie the water will be mostly hot. (others pointed out the amount may be less
than 10l for a wash, so adjust numbers appropriately)

The flow doesn't matter: the WM opens the valve and starts filling; it
closes the valve when it senses it has taken enough, ie it's based on volume
not time. If you plumbed in a fire hose it would still use the same amount
of water, just fill quicker.

Theo

On 17/12/2023 12:27, Theo wrote:
> RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
>> On 6 Nov 2023 at 18:56:35 GMT, Theo wrote:
>>
>>> RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
>>>> If it's anything like my combi, that initial slug can be the best part of
>>>> the water needed for the wash - taking up to a minute before hot water
>>>> comes through.
>>>
>>> Let's do some numbers on this. Suppose the initial fill is 10 litres from a
>>> 15mm pipe. If your fill takes a minute your flow rate would be 10
>>> litres/min which is what mine is, so sounds about right.
>>>
>>> CSA is pi r^2, so 0.75*0.75*3.14 = 1.76 cm2
>>>
>>> 10 litres thus needs 10000 / 1.76 = 5681 cm = 56.81m of pipe run
>>>
>>> I wonder who has a 56m pipe run from the hot water cylinder in their house?
>>> Mine is about 7m.
>>>
>>
>> Um. I can see that's the volume of the pipe. But this is flow - 10l/min. So 10
>> litres of water, plus the water already in the pipe between the heat source
>> and the washing machine, has been through the pipe in that one minute.
>>
>> Unless I'm very much mistaken; distinctly possible :-)
>
> The question was whether the hot water would come from that sitting around
> in the pipe, or from the cylinder. If you draw 10 litres to do your wash,
> for that all to come from the pipe it would have to be 57m long. In my case
> the pipe is 7m, so that's 7/57=12% from the pipe and 88% from the cylinder,
> ie the water will be mostly hot. (others pointed out the amount may be less
> than 10l for a wash, so adjust numbers appropriately)
>
> The flow doesn't matter: the WM opens the valve and starts filling; it
> closes the valve when it senses it has taken enough, ie it's based on volume
> not time. If you plumbed in a fire hose it would still use the same amount
> of water, just fill quicker.

It won't be that much. If your hot is at the minium of 60c and you are
doing a 40c wash then how much it uses will depend on the cold temp.

The machine must ensure the temp does not go above 30c in case any thing
is damaged by a higher temp.

Given the machine does not know how much cold it needs to run to get to
the hot, or how quickly the hot and cold are going to flow, I can see
why machines simply cold fill and then heat the water to the temperature
they need.

You can get hot fill machines.

https://www.ebac.com/washing-machines/what-is-hot-fill

but given the price is over £100 more than a cheap an cheerful Bosch,
and the cost of a typical wash is around 0.25p

https://inthewash.co.uk/laundry-and-ironing/cost-to-wash-clothes-uk/

then you are never going to recover that difference unless you wash
every day.

>
> Theo
> >
>

Dave

On 17/12/2023 14:01, David Wade wrote:

> It won't be that much. If your hot is at the minium of 60c and you are
> doing a 40c wash then how much it uses will depend on the cold temp.

The hot fill will only be used on a couple of programs and even then the
cycle is likely to perform a cold wash first in order to not to cook in
some types of staining.

> but given the price is over £100 more than a cheap an cheerful Bosch,
> and the cost of a typical wash is around 0.25p
>
> https://inthewash.co.uk/laundry-and-ironing/cost-to-wash-clothes-uk/

The most common wash programs will never use the hot water at all.
Unless you are always using the most aggressive 90C cotton only wash
then the payback probably will be never, compared to a cold fill only
machine.

The tend these days is not for hot washes but for very much longer
washing cycles at 40C, or under, using detergents working at 15C.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 06 Nov 2023 18:56:35 +0000 (GMT)
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
> > If it's anything like my combi, that initial slug can be the best
> > part of the water needed for the wash - taking up to a minute
> > before hot water comes through.
>
> Let's do some numbers on this. Suppose the initial fill is 10 litres
> from a 15mm pipe. If your fill takes a minute your flow rate would
> be 10 litres/min which is what mine is, so sounds about right.
>
> CSA is pi r^2, so 0.75*0.75*3.14 = 1.76 cm2
>
> 10 litres thus needs 10000 / 1.76 = 5681 cm = 56.81m of pipe run
>
> I wonder who has a 56m pipe run from the hot water cylinder in their
> house? Mine is about 7m.
>
> Theo

Mine is not 56m, but it is at least 60 feet or more. Diagonally across
the loft of the extension at the rear of the house, then vertically
down for two floors to the cellar ceiling, around the cellar, and
finally out at waist height to get to the utility room. Running the hot
tap there takes a loooong time before it runs hot.

--
Davey.

alan_m wrote:

> The most common wash programs will never use the hot water at all.
> Unless you are always using the most aggressive 90C cotton only wash
> then the payback probably will be never, compared to a cold fill only
> machine.

My previous hotpoint was hot&cold fill. Unless I forgot I would always
drain the cold water in the hot pipe via the sink tap before pressing
start, you could hear from the difference in fill rate (mains pressure
cold vs gravity hot) that it used both fill valves alternately on most
washes, to get whatever target temperature the wash required.

On 17/12/2023 15:23, Andy Burns wrote:
> alan_m wrote:
>
>> The most common wash programs will never use the hot water at all.
>> Unless you are always using the most aggressive 90C cotton only wash
>> then the payback probably will be never, compared to a cold fill only
>> machine.
>
> My previous hotpoint was hot&cold fill.  Unless I forgot I would always
> drain the cold water in the hot pipe via the sink tap before pressing
> start, you could hear from the difference in fill  rate (mains pressure
> cold vs gravity hot) that it used both fill valves alternately on most
> washes, to get whatever target temperature the wash required.

But then, if you are on a water meter is that a saving?

On 17 Dec 2023 at 12:27:37 GMT, Theo wrote:

> RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
>> On 6 Nov 2023 at 18:56:35 GMT, Theo wrote:
>>
>>> RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
>>>> If it's anything like my combi, that initial slug can be the best part of
>>>> the water needed for the wash - taking up to a minute before hot water
>>>> comes through.
>>>
>>> Let's do some numbers on this. Suppose the initial fill is 10 litres from a
>>> 15mm pipe. If your fill takes a minute your flow rate would be 10
>>> litres/min which is what mine is, so sounds about right.
>>>
>>> CSA is pi r^2, so 0.75*0.75*3.14 = 1.76 cm2
>>>
>>> 10 litres thus needs 10000 / 1.76 = 5681 cm = 56.81m of pipe run
>>>
>>> I wonder who has a 56m pipe run from the hot water cylinder in their house?
>>> Mine is about 7m.
>>>
>>
>> Um. I can see that's the volume of the pipe. But this is flow - 10l/min. So 10
>> litres of water, plus the water already in the pipe between the heat source
>> and the washing machine, has been through the pipe in that one minute.
>>
>> Unless I'm very much mistaken; distinctly possible :-)
>
> The question was whether the hot water would come from that sitting around
> in the pipe, or from the cylinder. If you draw 10 litres to do your wash,
> for that all to come from the pipe it would have to be 57m long. In my case
> the pipe is 7m, so that's 7/57=12% from the pipe and 88% from the cylinder,
> ie the water will be mostly hot. (others pointed out the amount may be less
> than 10l for a wash, so adjust numbers appropriately)
>

Ah right, gotcha. My comment was in the context of a combi, which has no
stored water.

> The flow doesn't matter: the WM opens the valve and starts filling; it
> closes the valve when it senses it has taken enough, ie it's based on volume
> not time. If you plumbed in a fire hose it would still use the same amount
> of water, just fill quicker.
>
> Theo

--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK