On 17/10/2022 16:26, SteveW wrote:
> On 17/10/2022 15:54, Pamela wrote:
>> On 15:11  17 Oct 2022, Fredxx said:
>>
>>> On 17/10/2022 14:25, SteveW wrote:
>>>> On 17/10/2022 14:04, Fredxx wrote:
>>>>> On 17/10/2022 12:52, Pamela wrote:
>>>>>> On 19:46  16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>>>>>>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>>>>>>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,   Jeff
>>>>>>>>> Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk> Dave
>>>>>>>>>> Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you
>>>>>>>>>>>> come across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is no
>>>>>>>>>>>> need to suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted
>>>>>>>>>>>> 'Yes'.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were
>>>>>>>>>>> promised that came true, then?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People who
>>>>>>>>>> voted
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they were
>>>>>>>>>> perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own
>>>>>>>>> mind' But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why
>>>>>>>>> they came to that decision.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the
>>>>>>>> Morning Star.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted Leave.
>>>>>>>> Not every Remainer is going to volunteer why they voted, either.
>>>>>>>> If you're trying to make a point, you're doing it very badly.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why
>>>>>>> they voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with a
>>>>>>> fair number of those who voted to leave.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of
>>>>>> affairs as their reason for staying.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, Project Fear of change.
>>>>>
>>>>> You need to get out more, take a few risks, enjoy life.
>>>>
>>>> Not to mention that it is impossible to determine what is down to
>>>> Brexit and what is not, due to the immediate and prolonged Covid
>>>> crisis, followed by the Ukraine situation and worldwide effects due
>>>> to these.
>>>>
>>>> It will only be clear what the long-term effects of Brexit are (in
>>>> either direction) some years down the line.
>>>
>>> I'm very fortunate, in that my skills cross borders, so I actually do
>>> well, long term, if the GBP falls.
>>
>> What about the all those British workers whose skills don't cross
>> borders? What has Brexit done for them?
>
> It has already cut the supply of low paid workers and begun to drive up
> pay due to supply being exceeded by demand. A similar effect has been
> ocurring at other pay levels throughout business.

Pamela is too lazy to work, so has a thing about people who do, and so
benefiting from Brexit.

On 17/10/2022 15:52, Pamela wrote:
> On 14:25 17 Oct 2022, SteveW said:
>
>> On 17/10/2022 14:04, Fredxx wrote:
>>> On 17/10/2022 12:52, Pamela wrote:
>>>> On 19:46  16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>>>>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>>>>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,
>>>>>>>   Jeff Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk> Dave
>>>>>>>> Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you
>>>>>>>>>> come across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is no
>>>>>>>>>> need to suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted 'Yes'.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were
>>>>>>>>> promised that came true, then?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People who
>>>>>>>> voted
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they were
>>>>>>>> perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own
>>>>>>> mind' But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why they
>>>>>>> came to that decision.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the
>>>>>> Morning Star.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted Leave.
>>>>>> Not every Remainer is going to volunteer why they voted, either.
>>>>>> If you're trying to make a point, you're doing it very badly.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why they
>>>>> voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with a fair
>>>>> number of those who voted to leave.
>>>>
>>>> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of
>>>> affairs as their reason for staying.
>>>
>>> Yes, Project Fear of change.
>>>
>>> You need to get out more, take a few risks, enjoy life.
>>
>> Not to mention that it is impossible to determine what is down to
>> Brexit and what is not, due to the immediate and prolonged Covid
>> crisis, followed by the Ukraine situation and worldwide effects due
>> to these.
>>
>> It will only be clear what the long-term effects of Brexit are (in
>> either direction) some years down the line.
>
> Brexiteers may well wish Covid, Ukraine and Kwazi budget will cover up
> the problems of Brexit

No need to wish.

> ... but it shouldn't be too hard to see there's
> been exactly zero improvement from Brexit.

With your hatred towards those who work, I'm sure your eyes won't see
anything else.

For the rest of us, we're doing very nicely, thank you.

On 17/10/2022 15:49, Pamela wrote:
> On 14:04 17 Oct 2022, Fredxx said:
>> On 17/10/2022 12:52, Pamela wrote:
>>> On 19:46 16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>>>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>>>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,
>>>>>> Jeff Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk> Dave
>>>>>>> Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you come
>>>>>>>>> across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is no need to
>>>>>>>>> suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted 'Yes'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were promised
>>>>>>>> that came true, then?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People who
>>>>>>> voted
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they were
>>>>>>> perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own mind'
>>>>>> But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why they came
>>>>>> to that decision.
>>>>>
>>>>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the
>>>>> Morning Star.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted Leave.
>>>>> Not every Remainer is going to volunteer why they voted, either.
>>>>> If you're trying to make a point, you're doing it very badly.
>>>>>
>>>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why they
>>>> voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with a fair
>>>> number of those who voted to leave.
>>>
>>> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of
>>> affairs as their reason for staying.
>>
>> Yes, Project Fear of change.
>
> The true Project Fear consisted of Brexiteers' paranoid stories about
> how the EU was deliberately taking advantage of Britain and aiming to
> harm us. Unthinking Leavers fell for it hook, line and sinker.

Your Project Fear is different to everyone else's:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Fear

If you weren't so fanatical, you might see that too. But I know you
can't due to your hatred to anyone who supported Leave, and has
benefited from Brexit.

>>> By contrast, Leavers would frequently proclaim the alleged benefits
>>> of leaving. There was almost no limit to this fantasy.
>
> It's been more than two years since Brexit and I'm wondering exactly
> what benefits we've received so far. Do you know?

Are you suffering from dementia? You should see your doctor as there is
medication for early signs. Only a few days ago I reminded you of the
advantages. You've clearly lost it.

On 16:26 17 Oct 2022, SteveW said:

> On 17/10/2022 15:54, Pamela wrote:
>> On 15:11 17 Oct 2022, Fredxx said:
>>
>>> On 17/10/2022 14:25, SteveW wrote:
>>>> On 17/10/2022 14:04, Fredxx wrote:
>>>>> On 17/10/2022 12:52, Pamela wrote:
>>>>>> On 19:46  16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>>>>>>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>>>>>>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,   Jeff
>>>>>>>>> Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>> Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you
>>>>>>>>>>>> come across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is
>>>>>>>>>>>> no need to suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted
>>>>>>>>>>>> 'Yes'.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were
>>>>>>>>>>> promised that came true, then?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People
>>>>>>>>>> who voted
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they
>>>>>>>>>> were perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own
>>>>>>>>> mind' But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why
>>>>>>>>> they came to that decision.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the
>>>>>>>> Morning Star.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted
>>>>>>>> Leave. Not every Remainer is going to volunteer why they
>>>>>>>> voted, either. If you're trying to make a point, you're doing
>>>>>>>> it very badly.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why
>>>>>>> they voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with
>>>>>>> a fair number of those who voted to leave.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of
>>>>>> affairs as their reason for staying.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, Project Fear of change.
>>>>>
>>>>> You need to get out more, take a few risks, enjoy life.
>>>>
>>>> Not to mention that it is impossible to determine what is down to
>>>> Brexit and what is not, due to the immediate and prolonged Covid
>>>> crisis, followed by the Ukraine situation and worldwide effects
>>>> due to these.
>>>>
>>>> It will only be clear what the long-term effects of Brexit are (in
>>>> either direction) some years down the line.
>>>
>>> I'm very fortunate, in that my skills cross borders, so I actually
>>> do well, long term, if the GBP falls.
>>
>> What about the all those British workers whose skills don't cross
>> borders? What has Brexit done for them?
>
> It has already cut the supply of low paid workers and begun to drive
> up pay due to supply being exceeded by demand. A similar effect has
> been ocurring at other pay levels throughout business.

In other words, Brexit has caused a labour shortage which means many
commercial/industrial/public sectors can no longer provide goods and
services required to satisfy public need. That's why "Liz Truss plans
more immigration in effort to fill vacancies" (according to press
stories).

Thanks, Brexit.

On 17:04 17 Oct 2022, Fredxx said:

> On 17/10/2022 16:26, SteveW wrote:
>> On 17/10/2022 15:54, Pamela wrote:
>>> On 15:11  17 Oct 2022, Fredxx said:
>>>
>>>> On 17/10/2022 14:25, SteveW wrote:
>>>>> On 17/10/2022 14:04, Fredxx wrote:
>>>>>> On 17/10/2022 12:52, Pamela wrote:
>>>>>>> On 19:46  16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>>>>>>>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>>>>>>>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,   Jeff
>>>>>>>>>> Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>> Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> come across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> no need to suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'Yes'.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were
>>>>>>>>>>>> promised that came true, then?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People
>>>>>>>>>>> who voted
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they
>>>>>>>>>>> were perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own
>>>>>>>>>> mind' But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why
>>>>>>>>>> they came to that decision.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read
>>>>>>>>> the Morning Star.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted
>>>>>>>>> Leave. Not every Remainer is going to volunteer why they
>>>>>>>>> voted, either. If you're trying to make a point, you're doing
>>>>>>>>> it very badly.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why
>>>>>>>> they voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with
>>>>>>>> a fair number of those who voted to leave.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of
>>>>>>> affairs as their reason for staying.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, Project Fear of change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You need to get out more, take a few risks, enjoy life.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not to mention that it is impossible to determine what is down to
>>>>> Brexit and what is not, due to the immediate and prolonged Covid
>>>>> crisis, followed by the Ukraine situation and worldwide effects
>>>>> due to these.
>>>>>
>>>>> It will only be clear what the long-term effects of Brexit are
>>>>> (in either direction) some years down the line.
>>>>
>>>> I'm very fortunate, in that my skills cross borders, so I actually
>>>> do well, long term, if the GBP falls.
>>>
>>> What about the all those British workers whose skills don't cross
>>> borders? What has Brexit done for them?
>>
>> It has already cut the supply of low paid workers and begun to drive
>> up pay due to supply being exceeded by demand. A similar effect has
>> been ocurring at other pay levels throughout business.
>
> Pamela is too lazy to work, so has a thing about people who do, and
> so benefiting from Brexit.

Apart from your ad-homs, Fredxx, you don't seem to have anything to
contribute to the discussion.

On 16:28 17 Oct 2022, SteveW said:
> On 17/10/2022 15:52, Pamela wrote:
>> On 14:25 17 Oct 2022, SteveW said:
>>> On 17/10/2022 14:04, Fredxx wrote:
>>>> On 17/10/2022 12:52, Pamela wrote:
>>>>> On 19:46  16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>>>>>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>>>>>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,
>>>>>>>>   Jeff Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>> Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you
>>>>>>>>>>> come across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is no
>>>>>>>>>>> need to suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted
>>>>>>>>>>> 'Yes'.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were
>>>>>>>>>> promised that came true, then?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People
>>>>>>>>> who voted
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they
>>>>>>>>> were perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own
>>>>>>>> mind' But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why
>>>>>>>> they came to that decision.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the
>>>>>>> Morning Star.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted
>>>>>>> Leave. Not every Remainer is going to volunteer why they voted,
>>>>>>> either. If you're trying to make a point, you're doing it very
>>>>>>> badly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why
>>>>>> they voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with a
>>>>>> fair number of those who voted to leave.
>>>>>
>>>>> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of
>>>>> affairs as their reason for staying.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, Project Fear of change.
>>>>
>>>> You need to get out more, take a few risks, enjoy life.
>>>
>>> Not to mention that it is impossible to determine what is down to
>>> Brexit and what is not, due to the immediate and prolonged Covid
>>> crisis, followed by the Ukraine situation and worldwide effects due
>>> to these.
>>>
>>> It will only be clear what the long-term effects of Brexit are (in
>>> either direction) some years down the line.
>>
>> Brexiteers may well wish Covid, Ukraine and Kwazi budget will cover
>> up the problems of Brexit ... but it shouldn't be too hard to see
>> there's been exactly zero improvement from Brexit.
>
> Entirely the opposite. We wish that Covid and Ukraine had never
> happened, so that government could have concentrated on the changes
> needed and still had the funds and time to do so.

Er, if Brexit required the government to provide funds then that's not
exactly saying Brexit brings a net benefit. What a mess.

I wonder if the lack of international credibility (Brexit turned the UK
into a financial laughing stock) made the Truss-Kwazi financial mess
even worse because foreign sentiment about the UK economy was so low.

On 16:14 17 Oct 2022, bert said:

> In article <XnsAF3382FF8B42137B93@88.198.57.247>, Pamela
> <pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> writes
>>On 19:46 16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why they
>>> voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with a fair
>>> number of those who voted to leave.
>>
>>Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of
>>affairs as their reason for staying.
>>
>>By contrast, Leavers would frequently proclaim the alleged benefits
>>of leaving. There was almost no limit to this fantasy list.
>>
>>It's easy to understand why Leavers are now highly defensive because
>>almost every one of their claimed benefits did not happen nor are
>>they likely to happen.
>>
>>As one example, there were claims how Brexit would permit the UK to
>>use World Trade Organisation rules to gain us greater trade,
>>propsperity, consumer choice, etc. As we all know, this allegedly
>>wonderful benefit turned out to be a dud.
>
> Really? Our non-EU trade is increasing. WTO rules were a last resort
> if EU wouldn't be flexible.

That's right, trade with the EU has declined and the UK is now
discounting goods in far off markets where we get less profit. Pity
Post-Trump America saw through Brexit, huh?

By the way, there are no benefits from using WTO rules. See below
about "The issues with trading on WTO rules".

<https://www.europeanmovement.co.uk/_trading_on_wto_rules_have_the_leavers_revealed_their_utter_lack_of_understanding_of_the_real_world_yet_again>

OR USE https://tinyurl.com/wto-doesnt-rule

On 17:09 17 Oct 2022, Fredxx said:
> On 17/10/2022 15:49, Pamela wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> The true Project Fear consisted of Brexiteers' paranoid stories
>> about how the EU was deliberately taking advantage of Britain and
>> aiming to harm us. Unthinking Leavers fell for it hook, line and
>> sinker.
>
> Your Project Fear is different to everyone else's:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Fear
>
> If you weren't so fanatical, you might see that too. But I know you
> can't due to your hatred to anyone who supported Leave, and has
> benefited from Brexit.
>
>>>> By contrast, Leavers would frequently proclaim the alleged
>>>> benefits of leaving. There was almost no limit to this fantasy.
>>
>> It's been more than two years since Brexit and I'm wondering exactly
>> what benefits we've received so far. Do you know?

Thank you for confirming you know if no benefits from Brexit.

Perhaps your excuse will be that you're suffering from dementia and
can't remember any of them right now believing you posted some Brexit
benefits a few weeks ago but can't remember what they are. Ha!

On 17/10/2022 17:12, Pamela wrote:
> On 17:04 17 Oct 2022, Fredxx said:
>
>> On 17/10/2022 16:26, SteveW wrote:
>>> On 17/10/2022 15:54, Pamela wrote:
>>>> On 15:11  17 Oct 2022, Fredxx said:
>>>>
>>>>> On 17/10/2022 14:25, SteveW wrote:
>>>>>> On 17/10/2022 14:04, Fredxx wrote:
>>>>>>> On 17/10/2022 12:52, Pamela wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 19:46  16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>>>>>>>>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>>>>>>>>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,   Jeff
>>>>>>>>>>> Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> come across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no need to suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'Yes'.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were
>>>>>>>>>>>>> promised that came true, then?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People
>>>>>>>>>>>> who voted
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they
>>>>>>>>>>>> were perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own
>>>>>>>>>>> mind' But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why
>>>>>>>>>>> they came to that decision.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read
>>>>>>>>>> the Morning Star.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted
>>>>>>>>>> Leave. Not every Remainer is going to volunteer why they
>>>>>>>>>> voted, either. If you're trying to make a point, you're doing
>>>>>>>>>> it very badly.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why
>>>>>>>>> they voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with
>>>>>>>>> a fair number of those who voted to leave.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of
>>>>>>>> affairs as their reason for staying.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, Project Fear of change.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You need to get out more, take a few risks, enjoy life.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not to mention that it is impossible to determine what is down to
>>>>>> Brexit and what is not, due to the immediate and prolonged Covid
>>>>>> crisis, followed by the Ukraine situation and worldwide effects
>>>>>> due to these.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It will only be clear what the long-term effects of Brexit are
>>>>>> (in either direction) some years down the line.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm very fortunate, in that my skills cross borders, so I actually
>>>>> do well, long term, if the GBP falls.
>>>>
>>>> What about the all those British workers whose skills don't cross
>>>> borders? What has Brexit done for them?
>>>
>>> It has already cut the supply of low paid workers and begun to drive
>>> up pay due to supply being exceeded by demand. A similar effect has
>>> been ocurring at other pay levels throughout business.
>>
>> Pamela is too lazy to work, so has a thing about people who do, and
>> so benefiting from Brexit.
>
> Apart from your ad-homs, Fredxx, you don't seem to have anything to
> contribute to the discussion.

I only make ad-homs when they are well deserved. For example, every time
you say there are no benefits and conveniently forget the ones already
published here.

In fact trolling seems your sole purpose here. I haven't seen you post
on a DIY topic for ages, if ever.

On 17/10/2022 17:11, Pamela wrote:
> On 16:26 17 Oct 2022, SteveW said:
>
>> On 17/10/2022 15:54, Pamela wrote:
>>> On 15:11 17 Oct 2022, Fredxx said:
>>>
>>>> On 17/10/2022 14:25, SteveW wrote:
>>>>> On 17/10/2022 14:04, Fredxx wrote:
>>>>>> On 17/10/2022 12:52, Pamela wrote:
>>>>>>> On 19:46  16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>>>>>>>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>>>>>>>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,   Jeff
>>>>>>>>>> Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>> Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> come across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> no need to suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'Yes'.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were
>>>>>>>>>>>> promised that came true, then?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People
>>>>>>>>>>> who voted
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they
>>>>>>>>>>> were perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own
>>>>>>>>>> mind' But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why
>>>>>>>>>> they came to that decision.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the
>>>>>>>>> Morning Star.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted
>>>>>>>>> Leave. Not every Remainer is going to volunteer why they
>>>>>>>>> voted, either. If you're trying to make a point, you're doing
>>>>>>>>> it very badly.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why
>>>>>>>> they voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with
>>>>>>>> a fair number of those who voted to leave.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of
>>>>>>> affairs as their reason for staying.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, Project Fear of change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You need to get out more, take a few risks, enjoy life.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not to mention that it is impossible to determine what is down to
>>>>> Brexit and what is not, due to the immediate and prolonged Covid
>>>>> crisis, followed by the Ukraine situation and worldwide effects
>>>>> due to these.
>>>>>
>>>>> It will only be clear what the long-term effects of Brexit are (in
>>>>> either direction) some years down the line.
>>>>
>>>> I'm very fortunate, in that my skills cross borders, so I actually
>>>> do well, long term, if the GBP falls.
>>>
>>> What about the all those British workers whose skills don't cross
>>> borders? What has Brexit done for them?
>>
>> It has already cut the supply of low paid workers and begun to drive
>> up pay due to supply being exceeded by demand. A similar effect has
>> been ocurring at other pay levels throughout business.
>
> In other words, Brexit has caused a labour shortage which means many
> commercial/industrial/public sectors can no longer provide goods and
> services required to satisfy public need. That's why "Liz Truss plans
> more immigration in effort to fill vacancies" (according to press
> stories).

No, there's an excess of work. Worker's pay will simply have to catch-up
until there's balance.

> Thanks, Brexit.

Yes, very much appreciated.

On 17/10/2022 17:28, Pamela wrote:
> On 17:09 17 Oct 2022, Fredxx said:
>> On 17/10/2022 15:49, Pamela wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> The true Project Fear consisted of Brexiteers' paranoid stories
>>> about how the EU was deliberately taking advantage of Britain and
>>> aiming to harm us. Unthinking Leavers fell for it hook, line and
>>> sinker.
>>
>> Your Project Fear is different to everyone else's:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Fear
>>
>> If you weren't so fanatical, you might see that too. But I know you
>> can't due to your hatred to anyone who supported Leave, and has
>> benefited from Brexit.
>>
>>>>> By contrast, Leavers would frequently proclaim the alleged
>>>>> benefits of leaving. There was almost no limit to this fantasy.
>>>
>>> It's been more than two years since Brexit and I'm wondering exactly
>>> what benefits we've received so far. Do you know?
>
> Thank you for confirming you know if no benefits from Brexit.

????

> Perhaps your excuse will be that you're suffering from dementia and
> can't remember any of them right now believing you posted some Brexit
> benefits a few weeks ago but can't remember what they are. Ha!

I have repeatedly told you that workers and the likes of me have seen
substantial pay increases. The only one suffering dementia is the one
who still believes there are no benefits.

If you tried work, rather than sitting all day on your arse, doing SFA
you might discover the benefits for yourself.

Yes, you are losing it. However much you try and convince yourself
otherwise.

On 17/10/2022 17:23, Pamela wrote:
> On 16:14 17 Oct 2022, bert said:
>
>> In article <XnsAF3382FF8B42137B93@88.198.57.247>, Pamela
>> <pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> writes
>>> On 19:46 16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why they
>>>> voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with a fair
>>>> number of those who voted to leave.
>>>
>>> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of
>>> affairs as their reason for staying.
>>>
>>> By contrast, Leavers would frequently proclaim the alleged benefits
>>> of leaving. There was almost no limit to this fantasy list.
>>>
>>> It's easy to understand why Leavers are now highly defensive because
>>> almost every one of their claimed benefits did not happen nor are
>>> they likely to happen.
>>>
>>> As one example, there were claims how Brexit would permit the UK to
>>> use World Trade Organisation rules to gain us greater trade,
>>> propsperity, consumer choice, etc. As we all know, this allegedly
>>> wonderful benefit turned out to be a dud.
>>
>> Really? Our non-EU trade is increasing. WTO rules were a last resort
>> if EU wouldn't be flexible.
>
> That's right, trade with the EU has declined and the UK is now
> discounting goods in far off markets where we get less profit. Pity
> Post-Trump America saw through Brexit, huh?
>
> By the way, there are no benefits from using WTO rules. See below
> about "The issues with trading on WTO rules".
>
> <https://www.europeanmovement.co.uk/_trading_on_wto_rules_have_the_leavers_revealed_their_utter_lack_of_understanding_of_the_real_world_yet_again>
>
> OR USE https://tinyurl.com/wto-doesnt-rule

That's funny.

You provide a link to an organisation that has Michael Heseltine as a
patron. I recall very well prior to the referendum on Question Time
Heseltine saying that one good thing of the EU is that it drove down the
pay of workers in the NHS. You couldn't make it up.

On 17 Oct 2022 at 12:52:39 BST, Pamela <pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 19:46 16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,
>>>> Jeff Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk> Dave
>>>>> Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you come
>>>>>>> across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is no need to
>>>>>>> suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted 'Yes'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were promised
>>>>>> that came true, then?
>>>>
>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People who
>>>>> voted
>>>>>
>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they were
>>>>> perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>
>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own mind'
>>>> But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why they came to
>>>> that decision.
>>>
>>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the
>>> Morning Star.
>>>
>>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted Leave. Not
>>> every Remainer is going to volunteer why they voted, either. If
>>> you're trying to make a point, you're doing it very badly.
>>>
>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why they
>> voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with a fair
>> number of those who voted to leave.
>
> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of affairs
> as their reason for staying.

Leavers also pointed to the pre-existing state of affairs, the undemocratic
nature of the EU, which we have dwelt on at length. We can also mention its
tendency to sulk when things don't go its way (such the the UK actually having
the nerve to exercise its Treaty rights), and to issue threats to neighbouring
states if they don't toe the line (such as Switzerland, Greece, Italy
(twice)).

None of this applies any more, as we left. Oh, except for the EU sulking when
we hinted we might exercise the Art. 16 rights we have in the NI Protocol -
after threatening to do just that themselves.

How about you go back into the woodwork. We'll let you know if we ever need
you again.

--
Lady Astor: "Winston, you are drunk!"
Churchill: "And you, madam, are ugly. But I shall be sober in the morning."

In message <tik15i$3fvqm$3@dont-email.me>, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk>
writes
>On 17/10/2022 17:11, Pamela wrote:

>> In other words, Brexit has caused a labour shortage which means many
>> commercial/industrial/public sectors can no longer provide goods and
>> services required to satisfy public need. That's why "Liz Truss plans
>> more immigration in effort to fill vacancies" (according to press
>> stories).
>
>No, there's an excess of work. Worker's pay will simply have to
>catch-up until there's balance.

Are there not some situations where you simply 'cannot get the staff',
regardless of how much you offer to pay?
>

>
>

--
Ian

In message <XnsAF33B1CA48FF537B93@88.198.57.247>, Pamela
<pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> writes
>On 17:09 17 Oct 2022, Fredxx said:
>> On 17/10/2022 15:49, Pamela wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> The true Project Fear consisted of Brexiteers' paranoid stories
>>> about how the EU was deliberately taking advantage of Britain and
>>> aiming to harm us. Unthinking Leavers fell for it hook, line and
>>> sinker.
>>
>> Your Project Fear is different to everyone else's:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Fear
>>
>> If you weren't so fanatical, you might see that too. But I know you
>> can't due to your hatred to anyone who supported Leave, and has
>> benefited from Brexit.
>>
>>>>> By contrast, Leavers would frequently proclaim the alleged
>>>>> benefits of leaving. There was almost no limit to this fantasy.
>>>
>>> It's been more than two years since Brexit and I'm wondering exactly
>>> what benefits we've received so far. Do you know?
>
>Thank you for confirming you know if no benefits from Brexit.
>
>Perhaps your excuse will be that you're suffering from dementia and
>can't remember any of them right now believing you posted some Brexit
>benefits a few weeks ago but can't remember what they are. Ha!

Are you not rather rushing to judgement? Surely you've heard that we
won't start to feel the benefits of Brexit for 40 or 50 years?
Thereafter, things will be simply great!
--
Ian

On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 22:52:39 +1100, Pamela
<pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 19:46 16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,
>>>> Jeff Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk> Dave
>>>>> Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you come
>>>>>>> across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is no need to
>>>>>>> suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted 'Yes'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were promised
>>>>>> that came true, then?
>>>>
>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People who
>>>>> voted
>>>>>
>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they were
>>>>> perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>
>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own mind'
>>>> But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why they came to
>>>> that decision.
>>>
>>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the
>>> Morning Star.
>>>
>>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted Leave. Not
>>> every Remainer is going to volunteer why they voted, either. If
>>> you're trying to make a point, you're doing it very badly.
>>>
>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why they
>> voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with a fair
>> number of those who voted to leave.
>
> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of affairs
> as their reason for staying.

But have never been able to honestly claim that the EU wouldn't
continue along their path to ever closer integration and EU
interference with how a member country does things.

> By contrast, Leavers would frequently proclaim the alleged benefits of
> leaving. There was almost no limit to this fantasy list.
>
> It's easy to understand why Leavers are now highly defensive because
> almost every one of their claimed benefits did not happen nor are they
> likely to happen.

> As one example, there were claims how Brexit would permit the UK to use
> World Trade Organisation rules to gain us greater trade, propsperity,
> consumer choice, etc.

No one ever claimed that with the greater, you one eyed clown.

> As we all know, this allegedly wonderful benefit
> turned out to be a dud.

Having fun thrashing that straw man.

Clearly the UK is now free to decided what it does for itself on a great
raft of issues.

On Tue, 18 Oct 2022 00:25:16 +1100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk>
wrote:

> On 17/10/2022 14:04, Fredxx wrote:
>> On 17/10/2022 12:52, Pamela wrote:
>>> On 19:46 16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>>>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>>>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,
>>>>>> Jeff Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk> Dave
>>>>>>> Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you come
>>>>>>>>> across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is no need to
>>>>>>>>> suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted 'Yes'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were promised
>>>>>>>> that came true, then?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People who
>>>>>>> voted
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they were
>>>>>>> perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own mind'
>>>>>> But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why they came to
>>>>>> that decision.
>>>>>
>>>>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the
>>>>> Morning Star.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted Leave. Not
>>>>> every Remainer is going to volunteer why they voted, either. If
>>>>> you're trying to make a point, you're doing it very badly.
>>>>>
>>>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why they
>>>> voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with a fair
>>>> number of those who voted to leave.
>>>
>>> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of affairs
>>> as their reason for staying.
>> Yes, Project Fear of change.
>> You need to get out more, take a few risks, enjoy life.
>
> Not to mention that it is impossible to determine what is down to Brexit
> and what is not, due to the immediate and prolonged Covid crisis,
> followed by the Ukraine situation and worldwide effects due to these.
>
> It will only be clear what the long-term effects of Brexit are (in
> either direction) some years down the line.

And likely not even then if the stupid voters pull the plug
on the Torys and end up with Labour who fuck up even
more than they did under Brown.

On Tue, 18 Oct 2022 01:49:27 +1100, Pamela
<pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 14:04 17 Oct 2022, Fredxx said:
>> On 17/10/2022 12:52, Pamela wrote:
>>> On 19:46 16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>>>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>>>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,
>>>>>> Jeff Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk> Dave
>>>>>>> Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you come
>>>>>>>>> across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is no need to
>>>>>>>>> suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted 'Yes'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were promised
>>>>>>>> that came true, then?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People who
>>>>>>> voted
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they were
>>>>>>> perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own mind'
>>>>>> But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why they came
>>>>>> to that decision.
>>>>>
>>>>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the
>>>>> Morning Star.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted Leave.
>>>>> Not every Remainer is going to volunteer why they voted, either.
>>>>> If you're trying to make a point, you're doing it very badly.
>>>>>
>>>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why they
>>>> voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with a fair
>>>> number of those who voted to leave.
>>>
>>> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of
>>> affairs as their reason for staying.
>>
>> Yes, Project Fear of change.
>
> The true Project Fear consisted of Brexiteers' paranoid stories about
> how the EU was deliberately taking advantage of Britain and aiming to
> harm us. Unthinking Leavers fell for it hook, line and sinker.
>
>>> By contrast, Leavers would frequently proclaim the alleged benefits
>>> of leaving. There was almost no limit to this fantasy.
>
> It's been more than two years since Brexit and I'm wondering exactly
> what benefits we've received so far. Do you know?

As you have been told repeatedly, the UK is now free to decide
what it will do policy wise and no longer has to allow any EUian
who wants to move to the UK to do so.

On Tue, 18 Oct 2022 01:54:19 +1100, Pamela
<pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 15:11 17 Oct 2022, Fredxx said:
>
>> On 17/10/2022 14:25, SteveW wrote:
>>> On 17/10/2022 14:04, Fredxx wrote:
>>>> On 17/10/2022 12:52, Pamela wrote:
>>>>> On 19:46Â 16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>>>>>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>>>>>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>, Â Jeff
>>>>>>>> Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk> Dave
>>>>>>>>> Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you
>>>>>>>>>>> come across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is no
>>>>>>>>>>> need to suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted
>>>>>>>>>>> 'Yes'.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were
>>>>>>>>>> promised that came true, then?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People who
>>>>>>>>> voted
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they were
>>>>>>>>> perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own
>>>>>>>> mind' But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why
>>>>>>>> they came to that decision.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the
>>>>>>> Morning Star.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted Leave.
>>>>>>> Not every Remainer is going to volunteer why they voted, either.
>>>>>>> If you're trying to make a point, you're doing it very badly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why
>>>>>> they voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with a
>>>>>> fair number of those who voted to leave.
>>>>>
>>>>> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of
>>>>> affairs as their reason for staying.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, Project Fear of change.
>>>>
>>>> You need to get out more, take a few risks, enjoy life.
>>>
>>> Not to mention that it is impossible to determine what is down to
>>> Brexit and what is not, due to the immediate and prolonged Covid
>>> crisis, followed by the Ukraine situation and worldwide effects due
>>> to these.
>>>
>>> It will only be clear what the long-term effects of Brexit are (in
>>> either direction) some years down the line.
>>
>> I'm very fortunate, in that my skills cross borders, so I actually do
>> well, long term, if the GBP falls.
>
> What about the all those British workers whose skills don't cross
> borders? What has Brexit done for them?

They no longer hav to compete with EUians who show up in the UK.

>> The trouble is with any change, some benefit and some don't. I recall
>> an article about recessions where a significant proportion of the
>> population increase their wealth for a myriad of reasons.

On 17/10/2022 17:11, Pamela wrote:
> On 16:26 17 Oct 2022, SteveW said:
>
>> On 17/10/2022 15:54, Pamela wrote:
>>> On 15:11 17 Oct 2022, Fredxx said:
>>>
>>>> On 17/10/2022 14:25, SteveW wrote:
>>>>> On 17/10/2022 14:04, Fredxx wrote:
>>>>>> On 17/10/2022 12:52, Pamela wrote:
>>>>>>> On 19:46  16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>>>>>>>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>>>>>>>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,   Jeff
>>>>>>>>>> Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>> Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> come across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> no need to suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'Yes'.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were
>>>>>>>>>>>> promised that came true, then?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People
>>>>>>>>>>> who voted
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they
>>>>>>>>>>> were perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own
>>>>>>>>>> mind' But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why
>>>>>>>>>> they came to that decision.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the
>>>>>>>>> Morning Star.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted
>>>>>>>>> Leave. Not every Remainer is going to volunteer why they
>>>>>>>>> voted, either. If you're trying to make a point, you're doing
>>>>>>>>> it very badly.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why
>>>>>>>> they voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with
>>>>>>>> a fair number of those who voted to leave.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of
>>>>>>> affairs as their reason for staying.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, Project Fear of change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You need to get out more, take a few risks, enjoy life.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not to mention that it is impossible to determine what is down to
>>>>> Brexit and what is not, due to the immediate and prolonged Covid
>>>>> crisis, followed by the Ukraine situation and worldwide effects
>>>>> due to these.
>>>>>
>>>>> It will only be clear what the long-term effects of Brexit are (in
>>>>> either direction) some years down the line.
>>>>
>>>> I'm very fortunate, in that my skills cross borders, so I actually
>>>> do well, long term, if the GBP falls.
>>>
>>> What about the all those British workers whose skills don't cross
>>> borders? What has Brexit done for them?
>>
>> It has already cut the supply of low paid workers and begun to drive
>> up pay due to supply being exceeded by demand. A similar effect has
>> been ocurring at other pay levels throughout business.
>
> In other words, Brexit has caused a labour shortage which means many
> commercial/industrial/public sectors can no longer provide goods and
> services required to satisfy public need. That's why "Liz Truss plans
> more immigration in effort to fill vacancies" (according to press
> stories).

No. Cheap, imported labour was undercutting UK workers and keeping pay
artifically low - requiring pay to be topped up by tax credits. Brexit
has begun to bring wages up towards a more reasonable level, where the
state does not have to subsidise work.

On 17/10/2022 17:17, Pamela wrote:
> On 16:28 17 Oct 2022, SteveW said:
>> On 17/10/2022 15:52, Pamela wrote:
>>> On 14:25 17 Oct 2022, SteveW said:
>>>> On 17/10/2022 14:04, Fredxx wrote:
>>>>> On 17/10/2022 12:52, Pamela wrote:
>>>>>> On 19:46  16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>>>>>>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>>>>>>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,
>>>>>>>>>   Jeff Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>> Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you
>>>>>>>>>>>> come across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is no
>>>>>>>>>>>> need to suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted
>>>>>>>>>>>> 'Yes'.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were
>>>>>>>>>>> promised that came true, then?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People
>>>>>>>>>> who voted
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they
>>>>>>>>>> were perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own
>>>>>>>>> mind' But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why
>>>>>>>>> they came to that decision.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the
>>>>>>>> Morning Star.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted
>>>>>>>> Leave. Not every Remainer is going to volunteer why they voted,
>>>>>>>> either. If you're trying to make a point, you're doing it very
>>>>>>>> badly.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why
>>>>>>> they voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with a
>>>>>>> fair number of those who voted to leave.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of
>>>>>> affairs as their reason for staying.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, Project Fear of change.
>>>>>
>>>>> You need to get out more, take a few risks, enjoy life.
>>>>
>>>> Not to mention that it is impossible to determine what is down to
>>>> Brexit and what is not, due to the immediate and prolonged Covid
>>>> crisis, followed by the Ukraine situation and worldwide effects due
>>>> to these.
>>>>
>>>> It will only be clear what the long-term effects of Brexit are (in
>>>> either direction) some years down the line.
>>>
>>> Brexiteers may well wish Covid, Ukraine and Kwazi budget will cover
>>> up the problems of Brexit ... but it shouldn't be too hard to see
>>> there's been exactly zero improvement from Brexit.
>>
>> Entirely the opposite. We wish that Covid and Ukraine had never
>> happened, so that government could have concentrated on the changes
>> needed and still had the funds and time to do so.
>
> Er, if Brexit required the government to provide funds then that's not
> exactly saying Brexit brings a net benefit. What a mess.

Government investment in things that bring a longer term benefit.

> I wonder if the lack of international credibility (Brexit turd the UK
> into a financial laughing stock) made the Truss-Kwazi financial mess
> even worse because foreign sentiment about the UK economy was so low.

Markets are not sentimental at all. They look only at what benefits them.

On 17/10/2022 21:03, Ian Jackson wrote:
> In message <tik15i$3fvqm$3@dont-email.me>, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> writes
>> On 17/10/2022 17:11, Pamela wrote:
>
>
>
>>>  In other words, Brexit has caused a labour shortage which means many
>>> commercial/industrial/public sectors can no longer provide goods and
>>> services required to satisfy public need. That's why "Liz Truss plans
>>> more immigration in effort to fill vacancies" (according to press
>>> stories).
>>
>> No, there's an excess of work. Worker's pay will simply have to
>> catch-up until there's balance.
>
> Are there not some situations where you simply 'cannot get the staff',
> regardless of how much you offer to pay?

I'm not personally aware of any. There are lists of shortages of
capabilities advertised by the government which allow you to import a
foreign worker. If important enough a company can always get a Visa for
someone. I know of two employees where this route has been used for US
workers.

On 18/10/2022 00:22, SteveW wrote:
> On 17/10/2022 17:11, Pamela wrote:
>> On 16:26  17 Oct 2022, SteveW said:
>>
>>> On 17/10/2022 15:54, Pamela wrote:
>>>> On 15:11  17 Oct 2022, Fredxx said:
>>>>
>>>>> On 17/10/2022 14:25, SteveW wrote:
>>>>>> On 17/10/2022 14:04, Fredxx wrote:
>>>>>>> On 17/10/2022 12:52, Pamela wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 19:46  16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>>>>>>>>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>>>>>>>>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,   Jeff
>>>>>>>>>>> Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> come across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no need to suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'Yes'.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were
>>>>>>>>>>>>> promised that came true, then?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People
>>>>>>>>>>>> who voted
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they
>>>>>>>>>>>> were perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own
>>>>>>>>>>> mind' But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why
>>>>>>>>>>> they came to that decision.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the
>>>>>>>>>> Morning Star.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted
>>>>>>>>>> Leave. Not every Remainer is going to volunteer why they
>>>>>>>>>> voted, either. If you're trying to make a point, you're doing
>>>>>>>>>> it very badly.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why
>>>>>>>>> they voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with
>>>>>>>>> a fair number of those who voted to leave.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of
>>>>>>>> affairs as their reason for staying.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, Project Fear of change.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You need to get out more, take a few risks, enjoy life.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not to mention that it is impossible to determine what is down to
>>>>>> Brexit and what is not, due to the immediate and prolonged Covid
>>>>>> crisis, followed by the Ukraine situation and worldwide effects
>>>>>> due to these.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It will only be clear what the long-term effects of Brexit are (in
>>>>>> either direction) some years down the line.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm very fortunate, in that my skills cross borders, so I actually
>>>>> do well, long term, if the GBP falls.
>>>>
>>>> What about the all those British workers whose skills don't cross
>>>> borders? What has Brexit done for them?
>>>
>>> It has already cut the supply of low paid workers and begun to drive
>>> up pay due to supply being exceeded by demand. A similar effect has
>>> been ocurring at other pay levels throughout business.
>>
>> In other words, Brexit has caused a labour shortage which means many
>> commercial/industrial/public sectors can no longer provide goods and
>> services required to satisfy public need. That's why "Liz Truss plans
>> more immigration in effort to fill vacancies" (according to press
>> stories).
>
> No. Cheap, imported labour was undercutting UK workers and keeping pay
> artifically low - requiring pay to be topped up by tax credits. Brexit
> has begun to bring wages up towards a more reasonable level, where the
> state does not have to subsidise work.

I recall David Cameron commenting of an explosion of in-work benefits.

I'm wondering, does Liz Truss now have any plans?

On 00:24 18 Oct 2022, SteveW said:

> On 17/10/2022 17:17, Pamela wrote:
>> On 16:28 17 Oct 2022, SteveW said:
>>> On 17/10/2022 15:52, Pamela wrote:
>>>> On 14:25 17 Oct 2022, SteveW said:
>>>>> On 17/10/2022 14:04, Fredxx wrote:
>>>>>> On 17/10/2022 12:52, Pamela wrote:
>>>>>>> On 19:46  16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>>>>>>>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>>>>>>>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,
>>>>>>>>>>   Jeff Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>> Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> come across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> no need to suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'Yes'.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were
>>>>>>>>>>>> promised that came true, then?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People
>>>>>>>>>>> who voted
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they
>>>>>>>>>>> were perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own
>>>>>>>>>> mind' But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why
>>>>>>>>>> they came to that decision.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read
>>>>>>>>> the Morning Star.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted
>>>>>>>>> Leave. Not every Remainer is going to volunteer why they
>>>>>>>>> voted, either. If you're trying to make a point, you're doing
>>>>>>>>> it very badly.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why
>>>>>>>> they voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with
>>>>>>>> a fair number of those who voted to leave.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of
>>>>>>> affairs as their reason for staying.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, Project Fear of change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You need to get out more, take a few risks, enjoy life.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not to mention that it is impossible to determine what is down to
>>>>> Brexit and what is not, due to the immediate and prolonged Covid
>>>>> crisis, followed by the Ukraine situation and worldwide effects
>>>>> due to these.
>>>>>
>>>>> It will only be clear what the long-term effects of Brexit are
>>>>> (in either direction) some years down the line.
>>>>
>>>> Brexiteers may well wish Covid, Ukraine and Kwazi budget will
>>>> cover up the problems of Brexit ... but it shouldn't be too hard
>>>> to see there's been exactly zero improvement from Brexit.
>>>
>>> Entirely the opposite. We wish that Covid and Ukraine had never
>>> happened, so that government could have concentrated on the changes
>>> needed and still had the funds and time to do so.
>>
>> Er, if Brexit required the government to provide funds then that's
>> not exactly saying Brexit brings a net benefit. What a mess.
>
> Government investment in things that bring a longer term benefit.

You are Liz Truss and I claim my �5.

On 17:55 17 Oct 2022, Fredxx said:
> On 17/10/2022 17:28, Pamela wrote:
>> On 17:09 17 Oct 2022, Fredxx said:
>>> On 17/10/2022 15:49, Pamela wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> The true Project Fear consisted of Brexiteers' paranoid stories
>>>> about how the EU was deliberately taking advantage of Britain and
>>>> aiming to harm us. Unthinking Leavers fell for it hook, line and
>>>> sinker.
>>>
>>> Your Project Fear is different to everyone else's:
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Fear
>>>
>>> If you weren't so fanatical, you might see that too. But I know you
>>> can't due to your hatred to anyone who supported Leave, and has
>>> benefited from Brexit.
>>>
>>>>>> By contrast, Leavers would frequently proclaim the alleged
>>>>>> benefits of leaving. There was almost no limit to this fantasy.
>>>>
>>>> It's been more than two years since Brexit and I'm wondering
>>>> exactly what benefits we've received so far. Do you know?
>>
>> Thank you for confirming you know if no benefits from Brexit.
>
> ????
>
>> Perhaps your excuse will be that you're suffering from dementia and
>> can't remember any of them right now believing you posted some
>> Brexit benefits a few weeks ago but can't remember what they are.
>> Ha!
>
> I have repeatedly told you

"I have repeatedly told you" means in reality that you have repeatedly
make the same mistake even if you don't realise it.