In article <tieiqp$2pt61$1@dont-email.me>,
Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
> > That the EU would give in to us as they needed us more than we needed them
> > and give us a perfect (for us) trade only deal?

> Ha ha, you believed that? What a fool. It was anticipated that the EU
> would punish us for leaving, so I have no idea where you get that from.
> Farage himself, no doubt.

From the same place as most who voted leave did. But was bright enough to
see Farage and his cronies for what they were. I take it you didn't?

--
*I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe*

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article <tigjru$i6r$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
Andrew <Andrew97d-junk@mybtinternet.com> wrote:
> And that is your problem. You lose 35% of your heat through the
> floor, and if it is a well ventilated suspended floor possibly
> even more, plus another chunky percentage through the walls.

Can you provide a link to a reputable source that supports that?

Of course if you have draughts coming up through the floor, anything is
possible. But with a decent floor covering?

It would be an easy job to insulate by ground floor due to having a cellar.

--
*We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then things get worse.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 16/10/2022 in message <5a384ee1bedave@davenoise.co.uk> Dave Plowman
(News) wrote:

>>Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People who voted to
>>leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they were perfectly
>>entitled to do.
>
>Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own mind' But read
>the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why they came to that decision.

It was a confidential referendum with a single question, who do you think
is entitled to know the reason(s) I voted the way I did?

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
If it's not broken, mess around with it until it is

On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,
> Jeff Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk> Dave Plowman
>> (News) wrote:
>
>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you come across as
>>>> a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is no need to suggest I was, or
>>>> indeed anyone else who voted 'Yes'.
>>>
>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were promised that came
>>> true, then?
>
>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People who voted to
>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they were perfectly
>> entitled to do.
>
> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own mind' But read
> the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why they came to that decision.

What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the Morning Star.

Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted Leave. Not
every Remainer is going to volunteer why they voted, either. If you're
trying to make a point, you're doing it very badly.

On 16/10/2022 15:00, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <tieiqp$2pt61$1@dont-email.me>,
> Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
>>> That the EU would give in to us as they needed us more than we needed them
>>> and give us a perfect (for us) trade only deal?
>
>> Ha ha, you believed that? What a fool. It was anticipated that the EU
>> would punish us for leaving, so I have no idea where you get that from.
>> Farage himself, no doubt.
>
> From the same place as most who voted leave did. But was bright enough to
> see Farage and his cronies for what they were. I take it you didn't?

Wrong again. You seem to get so many things wrong here, you let your
fanatical beliefs override common-sense.

On 11/10/2022 08:40, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
> For the whining moaners in here who keep whingeing about Brexit, BBC
> article confirming unemployment is at its lowest rate for 50 years:
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63204333
>
> We need to start reducing benefits now, there is no need for them except
> for the sick.
>
probably most of the min. wagers have got 2 or 3 jobs so they can live.

On 11/10/2022 10:43, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 11/10/2022 in message <ti37ur$12kjg$1@dont-email.me> RJH wrote:
>
>> On 11 Oct 2022 at 08:40:22 BST, "Jeff Gaines" wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> For the whining moaners in here who keep whingeing about Brexit, BBC
>>> article confirming unemployment is at its lowest rate for 50 years:
>>>
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63204333
>>>
>>
>> Would it be too much for you to mention the low pay, job insecurity, poor
>> conditions and absolute poverty a large amount of those 'employed' are
>> living
>> with?
>
> What's the relevance?
>
> Employment has changed over the last 25 years and will continue to do
> so, jobs for life no longer exist, get used to it.
>
except for the cons

On 16 Oct 2022 at 16:08:13 BST, "Jeff Gaines" <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

> On 16/10/2022 in message <5a384ee1bedave@davenoise.co.uk> Dave Plowman
> (News) wrote:
>
>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People who voted to
>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they were perfectly
>>> entitled to do.
>>
>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own mind' But read
>> the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why they came to that decision.

a) Why d'ye have this fixation with the Mail. Is it the paper you read?

b) I've given my reasons for voting Brexit any number of times so I conclude
you continue to be nodding off.

--
If socialism helps the poor, why are the poor in socialist countries so much poorer than the poor in capitalist countries?

Mark

On 16/10/2022 13:21, Fredxx wrote:

>
> In fact the modal age of death[1] is over 86.
>

There are 560,000 people over age 85 and 15,000 over 100

On 16/10/2022 13:23, Fredxx wrote:
> On 15/10/2022 22:42, Andrew wrote:
>> On 12/10/2022 12:54, Fredxx wrote:
>>
>>> After some research, ME/CFS also affects women disproportionately,
>>
>> No such pathological condition. 'ME' is an invented name.
>> If you really had what the name suggests you would be dead.
>
> All syndrome and diseases are invented. It describes a condition that is
> effectively of unknown origin. A bit like jaundice until some of the
> variant of hepatitis were discovered.
>
>

Do you understand the difference between a pathological disease
(that can be diagnosed with appropriate tests) and a
psychosomatic syndrome, like 'ME' and 'CFS' that have no identfyable
underlying disorder or changes to normal values that might explain
the 'symptoms' ?

In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk>
writes
>On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,
>> Jeff Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk> Dave Plowman
>>> (News) wrote:
>>
>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you come
>>>>>across as
>>>>> a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is no need to suggest I was, or
>>>>> indeed anyone else who voted 'Yes'.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were promised that came
>>>> true, then?
>>
>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People who voted
>>>
>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they were perfectly
>>> entitled to do.
>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own mind'
>>But read
>> the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why they came to that decision.
>
>What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the Morning Star.
>
>Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted Leave. Not
>every Remainer is going to volunteer why they voted, either. If you're
>trying to make a point, you're doing it very badly.
>
I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why they voted
to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with a fair number of
those who voted to leave.
--
Ian

On 16 Oct 2022 at 19:46:49 BST, Ian Jackson <ianREMOVETHISjackson@g3ohx.co.uk>
wrote:

> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk>
> writes
>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,
>>> Jeff Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk> Dave Plowman
>>>> (News) wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you come
>>>>>> across as
>>>>>> a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is no need to suggest I was, or
>>>>>> indeed anyone else who voted 'Yes'.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were promised that came
>>>>> true, then?
>>>
>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People who voted
>>>>
>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they were perfectly
>>>> entitled to do.
>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own mind'
>>> But read
>>> the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why they came to that decision.
>>
>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the Morning Star.
>>
>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted Leave. Not
>> every Remainer is going to volunteer why they voted, either. If you're
>> trying to make a point, you're doing it very badly.
>>
> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why they voted
> to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with a fair number of
> those who voted to leave.

A statement that can neither be proved nor disproved.

--
If socialism helps the poor, why are the poor in socialist countries so much poorer than the poor in capitalist countries?

Mark

On 16/10/2022 18:28, Andrew wrote:
> On 16/10/2022 13:23, Fredxx wrote:
>> On 15/10/2022 22:42, Andrew wrote:
>>> On 12/10/2022 12:54, Fredxx wrote:
>>>
>>>> After some research, ME/CFS also affects women disproportionately,
>>>
>>> No such pathological condition. 'ME' is an invented name.
>>> If you really had what the name suggests you would be dead.
>>
>> All syndrome and diseases are invented. It describes a condition that
>> is effectively of unknown origin. A bit like jaundice until some of
>> the variant of hepatitis were discovered.
>>
>>
>
> Do you understand the difference between a pathological disease
> (that can be diagnosed with appropriate tests) and a
> psychosomatic syndrome, like 'ME' and 'CFS' that have no identfyable
> underlying disorder or changes to normal values that might explain
> the 'symptoms' ?

You do understand that pain, real or otherwise is a pathological condition?

There are enough articles that define ME and FMA as "Pathological
condition".

What do you think I should go by, myriads of article or your rather
strange beliefs?

First hit with a .uk domain:
https://meassociation.org.uk/2018/06/me-association-may-summary-of-me-cfs-published-research-07-june-2018/

On 19:46 16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,
>>> Jeff Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk> Dave
>>>> Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you come
>>>>>> across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is no need to
>>>>>> suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted 'Yes'.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were promised
>>>>> that came true, then?
>>>
>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People who
>>>> voted
>>>>
>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they were
>>>> perfectly entitled to do.
>>>
>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own mind'
>>> But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why they came to
>>> that decision.
>>
>>What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the
>>Morning Star.
>>
>>Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted Leave. Not
>>every Remainer is going to volunteer why they voted, either. If
>>you're trying to make a point, you're doing it very badly.
>>
> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why they
> voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with a fair
> number of those who voted to leave.

Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of affairs
as their reason for staying.

By contrast, Leavers would frequently proclaim the alleged benefits of
leaving. There was almost no limit to this fantasy list.

It's easy to understand why Leavers are now highly defensive because
almost every one of their claimed benefits did not happen nor are they
likely to happen.

As one example, there were claims how Brexit would permit the UK to use
World Trade Organisation rules to gain us greater trade, propsperity,
consumer choice, etc. As we all know, this allegedly wonderful benefit
turned out to be a dud.

On 17/10/2022 12:52, Pamela wrote:
> On 19:46 16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,
>>>> Jeff Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk> Dave
>>>>> Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you come
>>>>>>> across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is no need to
>>>>>>> suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted 'Yes'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were promised
>>>>>> that came true, then?
>>>>
>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People who
>>>>> voted
>>>>>
>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they were
>>>>> perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>
>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own mind'
>>>> But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why they came to
>>>> that decision.
>>>
>>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the
>>> Morning Star.
>>>
>>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted Leave. Not
>>> every Remainer is going to volunteer why they voted, either. If
>>> you're trying to make a point, you're doing it very badly.
>>>
>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why they
>> voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with a fair
>> number of those who voted to leave.
>
> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of affairs
> as their reason for staying.

Yes, Project Fear of change.

You need to get out more, take a few risks, enjoy life.

On 17/10/2022 14:04, Fredxx wrote:
> On 17/10/2022 12:52, Pamela wrote:
>> On 19:46  16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,
>>>>>   Jeff Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk> Dave
>>>>>> Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you come
>>>>>>>> across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is no need to
>>>>>>>> suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted 'Yes'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were promised
>>>>>>> that came true, then?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People who
>>>>>> voted
>>>>>>
>>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they were
>>>>>> perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own mind'
>>>>> But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why they came to
>>>>> that decision.
>>>>
>>>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the
>>>> Morning Star.
>>>>
>>>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted Leave. Not
>>>> every Remainer is going to volunteer why they voted, either. If
>>>> you're trying to make a point, you're doing it very badly.
>>>>
>>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why they
>>> voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with a fair
>>> number of those who voted to leave.
>>
>> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of affairs
>> as their reason for staying.
>
> Yes, Project Fear of change.
>
> You need to get out more, take a few risks, enjoy life.

Not to mention that it is impossible to determine what is down to Brexit
and what is not, due to the immediate and prolonged Covid crisis,
followed by the Ukraine situation and worldwide effects due to these.

It will only be clear what the long-term effects of Brexit are (in
either direction) some years down the line.

On 17/10/2022 14:25, SteveW wrote:
> On 17/10/2022 14:04, Fredxx wrote:
>> On 17/10/2022 12:52, Pamela wrote:
>>> On 19:46  16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>>>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>>>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,
>>>>>>   Jeff Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk> Dave
>>>>>>> Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you come
>>>>>>>>> across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is no need to
>>>>>>>>> suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted 'Yes'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were promised
>>>>>>>> that came true, then?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People who
>>>>>>> voted
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they were
>>>>>>> perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own mind'
>>>>>> But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why they came to
>>>>>> that decision.
>>>>>
>>>>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the
>>>>> Morning Star.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted Leave. Not
>>>>> every Remainer is going to volunteer why they voted, either. If
>>>>> you're trying to make a point, you're doing it very badly.
>>>>>
>>>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why they
>>>> voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with a fair
>>>> number of those who voted to leave.
>>>
>>> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of affairs
>>> as their reason for staying.
>>
>> Yes, Project Fear of change.
>>
>> You need to get out more, take a few risks, enjoy life.
>
> Not to mention that it is impossible to determine what is down to Brexit
> and what is not, due to the immediate and prolonged Covid crisis,
> followed by the Ukraine situation and worldwide effects due to these.
>
> It will only be clear what the long-term effects of Brexit are (in
> either direction) some years down the line.

I'm very fortunate, in that my skills cross borders, so I actually do
well, long term, if the GBP falls.

The trouble is with any change, some benefit and some don't. I recall an
article about recessions where a significant proportion of the
population increase their wealth for a myriad of reasons.

On 14:04 17 Oct 2022, Fredxx said:
> On 17/10/2022 12:52, Pamela wrote:
>> On 19:46 16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,
>>>>> Jeff Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk> Dave
>>>>>> Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you come
>>>>>>>> across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is no need to
>>>>>>>> suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted 'Yes'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were promised
>>>>>>> that came true, then?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People who
>>>>>> voted
>>>>>>
>>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they were
>>>>>> perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own mind'
>>>>> But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why they came
>>>>> to that decision.
>>>>
>>>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the
>>>> Morning Star.
>>>>
>>>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted Leave.
>>>> Not every Remainer is going to volunteer why they voted, either.
>>>> If you're trying to make a point, you're doing it very badly.
>>>>
>>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why they
>>> voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with a fair
>>> number of those who voted to leave.
>>
>> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of
>> affairs as their reason for staying.
>
> Yes, Project Fear of change.

The true Project Fear consisted of Brexiteers' paranoid stories about
how the EU was deliberately taking advantage of Britain and aiming to
harm us. Unthinking Leavers fell for it hook, line and sinker.

>> By contrast, Leavers would frequently proclaim the alleged benefits
>> of leaving. There was almost no limit to this fantasy.

It's been more than two years since Brexit and I'm wondering exactly
what benefits we've received so far. Do you know?

On 14:25 17 Oct 2022, SteveW said:

> On 17/10/2022 14:04, Fredxx wrote:
>> On 17/10/2022 12:52, Pamela wrote:
>>> On 19:46  16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>>>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>>>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,
>>>>>>   Jeff Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk> Dave
>>>>>>> Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you
>>>>>>>>> come across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is no
>>>>>>>>> need to suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted 'Yes'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were
>>>>>>>> promised that came true, then?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People who
>>>>>>> voted
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they were
>>>>>>> perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own
>>>>>> mind' But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why they
>>>>>> came to that decision.
>>>>>
>>>>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the
>>>>> Morning Star.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted Leave.
>>>>> Not every Remainer is going to volunteer why they voted, either.
>>>>> If you're trying to make a point, you're doing it very badly.
>>>>>
>>>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why they
>>>> voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with a fair
>>>> number of those who voted to leave.
>>>
>>> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of
>>> affairs as their reason for staying.
>>
>> Yes, Project Fear of change.
>>
>> You need to get out more, take a few risks, enjoy life.
>
> Not to mention that it is impossible to determine what is down to
> Brexit and what is not, due to the immediate and prolonged Covid
> crisis, followed by the Ukraine situation and worldwide effects due
> to these.
>
> It will only be clear what the long-term effects of Brexit are (in
> either direction) some years down the line.

Brexiteers may well wish Covid, Ukraine and Kwazi budget will cover up
the problems of Brexit ... but it shouldn't be too hard to see there's
been exactly zero improvement from Brexit.

On 15:11 17 Oct 2022, Fredxx said:

> On 17/10/2022 14:25, SteveW wrote:
>> On 17/10/2022 14:04, Fredxx wrote:
>>> On 17/10/2022 12:52, Pamela wrote:
>>>> On 19:46  16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>>>>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>>>>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,   Jeff
>>>>>>> Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk> Dave
>>>>>>>> Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you
>>>>>>>>>> come across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is no
>>>>>>>>>> need to suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted
>>>>>>>>>> 'Yes'.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were
>>>>>>>>> promised that came true, then?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People who
>>>>>>>> voted
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they were
>>>>>>>> perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own
>>>>>>> mind' But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why
>>>>>>> they came to that decision.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the
>>>>>> Morning Star.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted Leave.
>>>>>> Not every Remainer is going to volunteer why they voted, either.
>>>>>> If you're trying to make a point, you're doing it very badly.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why
>>>>> they voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with a
>>>>> fair number of those who voted to leave.
>>>>
>>>> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of
>>>> affairs as their reason for staying.
>>>
>>> Yes, Project Fear of change.
>>>
>>> You need to get out more, take a few risks, enjoy life.
>>
>> Not to mention that it is impossible to determine what is down to
>> Brexit and what is not, due to the immediate and prolonged Covid
>> crisis, followed by the Ukraine situation and worldwide effects due
>> to these.
>>
>> It will only be clear what the long-term effects of Brexit are (in
>> either direction) some years down the line.
>
> I'm very fortunate, in that my skills cross borders, so I actually do
> well, long term, if the GBP falls.

What about the all those British workers whose skills don't cross
borders? What has Brexit done for them?

> The trouble is with any change, some benefit and some don't. I recall
> an article about recessions where a significant proportion of the
> population increase their wealth for a myriad of reasons.

That article was probably in the Beano.

In article <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk>, "Dave Plowman (News)"
<dave@davenoise.co.uk> writes
>In article <tibus6$25p0l$2@dont-email.me>,
> Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you come across as
>> a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is no need to suggest I was, or
>> indeed anyone else who voted 'Yes'.
>
>Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were promised that came
>true, then?
>
>All the extra money for the NHS?
They've had it and squandered it on Diversity Mngrs etc.
>
>The marvellous trade deals we'd get with the US, etc?
>
Couldn't predict the Americans being stupid enough to vote for Biden,
but lot's of others in place and other biggies close.
>That the EU would give in to us as they needed us more than we needed them
>and give us a perfect (for us) trade only deal?
>
And look what has happened to them as a result of cutting off their
noses to spite their faces.
>That removing EU restrictions would allow our economy to flourish?
>
It is recovering from covid quite well, better than the EU as a whole
and Germany in particular.
>Oddly, that nice Mr Rees-Mogg - given the job of informing us of just how
>wonderful it was - seems only to have come up with things like sign posts
>in tunnels.
>
>But at least you've got your sovereignty back. And can now elect just who
>you want to run the country. Given enough time.
>
2024 latest.
--
bert

In article <XnsAF3382FF8B42137B93@88.198.57.247>, Pamela
<pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> writes
>On 19:46 16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>>On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,
>>>> Jeff Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk> Dave
>>>>> Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you come
>>>>>>> across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is no need to
>>>>>>> suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted 'Yes'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were promised
>>>>>> that came true, then?
>>>>
>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People who
>>>>> voted
>>>>>
>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they were
>>>>> perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>
>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own mind'
>>>> But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why they came to
>>>> that decision.
>>>
>>>What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the
>>>Morning Star.
>>>
>>>Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted Leave. Not
>>>every Remainer is going to volunteer why they voted, either. If
>>>you're trying to make a point, you're doing it very badly.
>>>
>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why they
>> voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with a fair
>> number of those who voted to leave.
>
>Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of affairs
>as their reason for staying.
>
>By contrast, Leavers would frequently proclaim the alleged benefits of
>leaving. There was almost no limit to this fantasy list.
>
>It's easy to understand why Leavers are now highly defensive because
>almost every one of their claimed benefits did not happen nor are they
>likely to happen.
>
>As one example, there were claims how Brexit would permit the UK to use
>World Trade Organisation rules to gain us greater trade, propsperity,
>consumer choice, etc. As we all know, this allegedly wonderful benefit
>turned out to be a dud.
Really? Our non-EU trade is increasing. WTO rules were a last resort if
EU wouldn't be flexible.
--
bert

On 17/10/2022 15:54, Pamela wrote:
> On 15:11 17 Oct 2022, Fredxx said:
>
>> On 17/10/2022 14:25, SteveW wrote:
>>> On 17/10/2022 14:04, Fredxx wrote:
>>>> On 17/10/2022 12:52, Pamela wrote:
>>>>> On 19:46  16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>>>>>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>>>>>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,   Jeff
>>>>>>>> Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk> Dave
>>>>>>>>> Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you
>>>>>>>>>>> come across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is no
>>>>>>>>>>> need to suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted
>>>>>>>>>>> 'Yes'.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were
>>>>>>>>>> promised that came true, then?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People who
>>>>>>>>> voted
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they were
>>>>>>>>> perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own
>>>>>>>> mind' But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why
>>>>>>>> they came to that decision.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the
>>>>>>> Morning Star.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted Leave.
>>>>>>> Not every Remainer is going to volunteer why they voted, either.
>>>>>>> If you're trying to make a point, you're doing it very badly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why
>>>>>> they voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with a
>>>>>> fair number of those who voted to leave.
>>>>>
>>>>> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of
>>>>> affairs as their reason for staying.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, Project Fear of change.
>>>>
>>>> You need to get out more, take a few risks, enjoy life.
>>>
>>> Not to mention that it is impossible to determine what is down to
>>> Brexit and what is not, due to the immediate and prolonged Covid
>>> crisis, followed by the Ukraine situation and worldwide effects due
>>> to these.
>>>
>>> It will only be clear what the long-term effects of Brexit are (in
>>> either direction) some years down the line.
>>
>> I'm very fortunate, in that my skills cross borders, so I actually do
>> well, long term, if the GBP falls.
>
> What about the all those British workers whose skills don't cross
> borders? What has Brexit done for them?

It has already cut the supply of low paid workers and begun to drive up
pay due to supply being exceeded by demand. A similar effect has been
ocurring at other pay levels throughout business.

On 17/10/2022 15:52, Pamela wrote:
> On 14:25 17 Oct 2022, SteveW said:
>
>> On 17/10/2022 14:04, Fredxx wrote:
>>> On 17/10/2022 12:52, Pamela wrote:
>>>> On 19:46  16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>>>>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>>>>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,
>>>>>>>   Jeff Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk> Dave
>>>>>>>> Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you
>>>>>>>>>> come across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is no
>>>>>>>>>> need to suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted 'Yes'.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were
>>>>>>>>> promised that came true, then?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People who
>>>>>>>> voted
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they were
>>>>>>>> perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own
>>>>>>> mind' But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why they
>>>>>>> came to that decision.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the
>>>>>> Morning Star.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted Leave.
>>>>>> Not every Remainer is going to volunteer why they voted, either.
>>>>>> If you're trying to make a point, you're doing it very badly.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why they
>>>>> voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with a fair
>>>>> number of those who voted to leave.
>>>>
>>>> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of
>>>> affairs as their reason for staying.
>>>
>>> Yes, Project Fear of change.
>>>
>>> You need to get out more, take a few risks, enjoy life.
>>
>> Not to mention that it is impossible to determine what is down to
>> Brexit and what is not, due to the immediate and prolonged Covid
>> crisis, followed by the Ukraine situation and worldwide effects due
>> to these.
>>
>> It will only be clear what the long-term effects of Brexit are (in
>> either direction) some years down the line.
>
> Brexiteers may well wish Covid, Ukraine and Kwazi budget will cover up
> the problems of Brexit ... but it shouldn't be too hard to see there's
> been exactly zero improvement from Brexit.

Entirely the opposite. We wish that Covid and Ukraine had never
happened, so that government could have concentrated on the changes
needed and still had the funds and time to do so.

On 17/10/2022 15:54, Pamela wrote:
> On 15:11 17 Oct 2022, Fredxx said:
>
>> On 17/10/2022 14:25, SteveW wrote:
>>> On 17/10/2022 14:04, Fredxx wrote:
>>>> On 17/10/2022 12:52, Pamela wrote:
>>>>> On 19:46  16 Oct 2022, Ian Jackson said:
>>>>>> In message <tih7sf$35ol9$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx writes
>>>>>>> On 16/10/2022 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article <xn0no55fv35giow004@news.individual.net>,   Jeff
>>>>>>>> Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 15/10/2022 in message <5a37cde24fdave@davenoise.co.uk> Dave
>>>>>>>>> Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There was no con. Every time you say 'we' were conned you
>>>>>>>>>>> come across as a fanatic. BTW I was not conned, there is no
>>>>>>>>>>> need to suggest I was, or indeed anyone else who voted
>>>>>>>>>>> 'Yes'.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps you tell us of all the brexit benefits we were
>>>>>>>>>> promised that came true, then?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Only a moron believes promises made by politicians. People who
>>>>>>>>> voted
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> leave aren't sheep, they made their own decisions as they were
>>>>>>>>> perfectly entitled to do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ah - right. The standard Brexiteer reply. 'I made up my own
>>>>>>>> mind' But read the Mail. But refuse to give the reasons why
>>>>>>>> they came to that decision.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What would your reply be? 'I made up my own mind' But read the
>>>>>>> Morning Star.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some of us have already given you the reasons why I voted Leave.
>>>>>>> Not every Remainer is going to volunteer why they voted, either.
>>>>>>> If you're trying to make a point, you're doing it very badly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't recall anyone who has been particularly coy about why
>>>>>> they voted to remain in the EU. This is often in contrast with a
>>>>>> fair number of those who voted to leave.
>>>>>
>>>>> Remainers needed only point to the previously existing state of
>>>>> affairs as their reason for staying.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, Project Fear of change.
>>>>
>>>> You need to get out more, take a few risks, enjoy life.
>>>
>>> Not to mention that it is impossible to determine what is down to
>>> Brexit and what is not, due to the immediate and prolonged Covid
>>> crisis, followed by the Ukraine situation and worldwide effects due
>>> to these.
>>>
>>> It will only be clear what the long-term effects of Brexit are (in
>>> either direction) some years down the line.
>>
>> I'm very fortunate, in that my skills cross borders, so I actually do
>> well, long term, if the GBP falls.
>
> What about the all those British workers whose skills don't cross
> borders? What has Brexit done for them?

Given them pay increases.

>> The trouble is with any change, some benefit and some don't. I recall
>> an article about recessions where a significant proportion of the
>> population increase their wealth for a myriad of reasons.
>
> That article was probably in the Beano.

In your dreams perhaps.

If you want to google you will find equivalent articles. Without looking
too hard you might even find one that said life expectancy increased in
the Great Depression.