Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <c3uv0h1vc8se2fu0ok5g66d69bvjl3mca3@4ax.com>, at 19:51:59 on
> Fri, 18 Feb 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
> remarked:
>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 09:27:24 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <jb0u0hhf1ds1lgspp7p4ff2si0ef9e36ma@4ax.com>, at 02:21:43 on
>>> Fri, 18 Feb 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 09:04:57 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <sul2h7$1dfu$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:55:03 on Thu, 17 Feb
>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 17:35:00 +0000
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <sujbp1$1dl4$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:20:33 on Wed, 16 Feb
>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 11:26:39 +0100
>>>>>>>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2022-02-16 08:54:49 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>>>>>>>>> Intuitively, any driver will know that if they push their right foot
>>>>>>>>> all the way down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their car,
>>>>>>>>> but if they are driving on the motorway, they can push their right foot
>>>>>>>>> all the way to the floor and the wheels won't lose grip (Roland and
>>>>>>>>> Anna may have different experiences, as each of them have made
>>>>>>>>> references to owning or having owned "atypical" cars).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well I know thats not true because some wheel driven land speed
>>>>>>>> record cars
>>>>>>>> started to have wheelsip at very high speed which limited their record
>>>>>>>> run max V
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How many of us are driving land-speed-record cars on the streets?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not the point as you well know.
>>>>>
>>>>> The point, dear boy, is discussing the verascity of the assertion:
>>>>>
>>>>> "any driver will know that if they push their right foot all the way
>>>>> down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their car"
>>>>>
>>>>> Notwithstanding I don't even think that's true of road-going cars, your
>>>>> record-breaking cars aren't even, by your own admission, travelling at
>>>>> "low speed".
>>>>>
>>>> I can spin the wheels on my humble Dacia Logan despite dry conditions,
>>>> a decent set of Michelins and being in ECO mode. ITYF most front wheel
>>>> drive cars will manage that when turning if not going dead ahead.
>>>
>>> Ah some more goalposts: "when turning". Can you spin the wheels (even
>>> when turning) from being rolling at say 15mph?
>>>
>> Yes if I am not steering dead ahead.
>
> Sounds like a suspension issue, with one of the driven wheels lifting up
> due to the cornering.
>
>> I tend to be in traffic at 15mph so experimentation is not always
>> advised.
>
> It's a speed I traverse when starting from a halt and eventually
> reaching 30, 40mph or whatever cruising speed on an open road. So not
> often constrained by traffic in front.

I think a 4wd car would have to be very powerful to spin the wheels on a
dry road at 15 mph (probably in 2nd gear) or more. It would almost
certainly be impossible in your car.

In message <suqjs0$svk$3@dont-email.me>, at 11:21:36 on Sat, 19 Feb
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <c3uv0h1vc8se2fu0ok5g66d69bvjl3mca3@4ax.com>, at 19:51:59 on
>> Fri, 18 Feb 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>> remarked:
>>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 09:27:24 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <jb0u0hhf1ds1lgspp7p4ff2si0ef9e36ma@4ax.com>, at 02:21:43 on
>>>> Fri, 18 Feb 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 09:04:57 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <sul2h7$1dfu$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:55:03 on Thu, 17 Feb
>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 17:35:00 +0000
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <sujbp1$1dl4$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:20:33 on Wed, 16 Feb
>>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 11:26:39 +0100
>>>>>>>>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:

>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-02-16 08:54:49 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:

>>>>>>>>>> Intuitively, any driver will know that if they push their
>>>>>>>>>>right foot all the way down at low speed, they will spin the
>>>>>>>>>>wheels on their car, but if they are driving on the motorway,
>>>>>>>>>>they can push their right foot all the way to the floor and
>>>>>>>>>> Anna may have different experiences, as each of them have
>>>>>>>>>> references to owning or having owned "atypical" cars).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well I know thats not true because some wheel driven land
>>>>>>>>> record cars started to have wheelsip at very high speed
>>>>>>>>>which limited their record run max V
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How many of us are driving land-speed-record cars on the streets?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not the point as you well know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The point, dear boy, is discussing the verascity of the assertion:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "any driver will know that if they push their right foot all the way
>>>>>> down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their car"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Notwithstanding I don't even think that's true of road-going cars, your
>>>>>> record-breaking cars aren't even, by your own admission, travelling at
>>>>>> "low speed".
>>>>>>
>>>>> I can spin the wheels on my humble Dacia Logan despite dry conditions,
>>>>> a decent set of Michelins and being in ECO mode. ITYF most front wheel
>>>>> drive cars will manage that when turning if not going dead ahead.
>>>>
>>>> Ah some more goalposts: "when turning". Can you spin the wheels (even
>>>> when turning) from being rolling at say 15mph?
>>>>
>>> Yes if I am not steering dead ahead.
>>
>> Sounds like a suspension issue, with one of the driven wheels lifting up
>> due to the cornering.
>>
>>> I tend to be in traffic at 15mph so experimentation is not always
>>> advised.
>>
>> It's a speed I traverse when starting from a halt and eventually
>> reaching 30, 40mph or whatever cruising speed on an open road. So not
>> often constrained by traffic in front.
>
>I think a 4wd car would have to be very powerful to spin the wheels on a
>dry road at 15 mph (probably in 2nd gear) or more. It would almost
>certainly be impossible in your car.

Even if it didn't have a complicated and expensive traction control
transmission!

And we are talking about proper 4WD here, not the puny "all wheel drive"
that some crossover vehicles have.

Having said that, it's my impression from reading the literature that my
car is predominately FWD with the rear wheel drive only kicking in as
required. But unlike "AWD", full power can be applied at the rear. Which
is probably helpful if the front wheels are down in a ditch but the rear
wheels on firmer ground.

My SWB Land Rover was the other way around, with free-wheel hubs on the
front, so road-going almost always in RWD only.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <suqjs0$svk$3@dont-email.me>, at 11:21:36 on Sat, 19 Feb
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <c3uv0h1vc8se2fu0ok5g66d69bvjl3mca3@4ax.com>, at 19:51:59 on
>>> Fri, 18 Feb 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 09:27:24 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <jb0u0hhf1ds1lgspp7p4ff2si0ef9e36ma@4ax.com>, at 02:21:43 on
>>>>> Fri, 18 Feb 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 09:04:57 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <sul2h7$1dfu$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:55:03 on Thu, 17 Feb
>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 17:35:00 +0000
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <sujbp1$1dl4$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:20:33 on Wed, 16 Feb
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 11:26:39 +0100
>>>>>>>>>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-02-16 08:54:49 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>
>>>>>>>>>>> Intuitively, any driver will know that if they push their
>>>>>>>>>>> right foot all the way down at low speed, they will spin the
>>>>>>>>>>> wheels on their car, but if they are driving on the motorway,
>>>>>>>>>>> they can push their right foot all the way to the floor and
>>>>>>>>>>> Anna may have different experiences, as each of them have
>>>>>>>>>>> references to owning or having owned "atypical" cars).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well I know thats not true because some wheel driven land
>>>>>>>>>> record cars started to have wheelsip at very high speed
>>>>>>>>>> which limited their record run max V
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How many of us are driving land-speed-record cars on the streets?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not the point as you well know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The point, dear boy, is discussing the verascity of the assertion:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "any driver will know that if they push their right foot all the way
>>>>>>> down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their car"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Notwithstanding I don't even think that's true of road-going cars, your
>>>>>>> record-breaking cars aren't even, by your own admission, travelling at
>>>>>>> "low speed".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can spin the wheels on my humble Dacia Logan despite dry conditions,
>>>>>> a decent set of Michelins and being in ECO mode. ITYF most front wheel
>>>>>> drive cars will manage that when turning if not going dead ahead.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah some more goalposts: "when turning". Can you spin the wheels (even
>>>>> when turning) from being rolling at say 15mph?
>>>>>
>>>> Yes if I am not steering dead ahead.
>>>
>>> Sounds like a suspension issue, with one of the driven wheels lifting up
>>> due to the cornering.
>>>
>>>> I tend to be in traffic at 15mph so experimentation is not always
>>>> advised.
>>>
>>> It's a speed I traverse when starting from a halt and eventually
>>> reaching 30, 40mph or whatever cruising speed on an open road. So not
>>> often constrained by traffic in front.
>>
>> I think a 4wd car would have to be very powerful to spin the wheels on a
>> dry road at 15 mph (probably in 2nd gear) or more. It would almost
>> certainly be impossible in your car.
>
> Even if it didn't have a complicated and expensive traction control
> transmission!
>
> And we are talking about proper 4WD here, not the puny "all wheel drive"
> that some crossover vehicles have.
>
> Having said that, it's my impression from reading the literature that my
> car is predominately FWD with the rear wheel drive only kicking in as
> required. But unlike "AWD", full power can be applied at the rear. Which
> is probably helpful if the front wheels are down in a ditch but the rear
> wheels on firmer ground.

Yes, it's basically a 4-cylinder fwd family hatchback, with part-time rwd
when the front wheels lose traction. A Haldex clutch determines the
proportion of the torque diverted to the rear wheels.

>
> My SWB Land Rover was the other way around, with free-wheel hubs on the
> front, so road-going almost always in RWD only.

That model would have been from a very long time ago. For many years,
Defenders have had proper centre differentials.

In message <suqnh1$7ic$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:24:01 on Sat, 19 Feb
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>> Having said that, it's my impression from reading the literature that my
>> car is predominately FWD with the rear wheel drive only kicking in as
>> required. But unlike "AWD", full power can be applied at the rear. Which
>> is probably helpful if the front wheels are down in a ditch but the rear
>> wheels on firmer ground.
>
>Yes, it's basically a 4-cylinder fwd family hatchback, with part-time rwd
>when the front wheels lose traction.

It's more of a road-car than a Range Rover or classic Discovery, but
without compromising the off-road capability when required. The height
and poise are just as important improvements over "family hatchback" as
things like the Hill Descent Control. I still haven't found a hill steep
enough to try the latter out, though.

>A Haldex clutch determines the proportion of the torque diverted to the
>rear wheels.

It's a bit more complicated than that, but that clutch is part of the
system. The DSC and terrain control system is much more agile than a
regular car, with wheelspin being detected within 15-degree rotation and
front/rear power redistribution fully achieved in 150ms.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

> My SWB Land Rover was the other way around, with free-wheel hubs on the
> front, so road-going almost always in RWD only.

The freewheel hubs were an (aftermarket?) extra; but even without them the
choices were either rear wheel drive or four wheel drive, with the latter
only for off-road use due to lack of centre differential.

What the freewheel front hubs did, was to save fuel, because the front
wheels otherwise constantly turn the front differential and driveshaft,
even in 2wd mode. The freewheel hubs allowed those parts to remain
stationary when no in use.

(I fully expect someone to nitpick the word 'stationary' as implying that
they remain in the same physical location when the vehicle moves…
*rollseyes*)

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 09:01:34 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <c3uv0h1vc8se2fu0ok5g66d69bvjl3mca3@4ax.com>, at 19:51:59 on
>Fri, 18 Feb 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>remarked:
>>On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 09:27:24 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <jb0u0hhf1ds1lgspp7p4ff2si0ef9e36ma@4ax.com>, at 02:21:43 on
>>>Fri, 18 Feb 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>remarked:
>>>>On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 09:04:57 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In message <sul2h7$1dfu$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:55:03 on Thu, 17 Feb
>>>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 17:35:00 +0000
>>>>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>In message <sujbp1$1dl4$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:20:33 on Wed, 16 Feb
>>>>>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>>On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 11:26:39 +0100
>>>>>>>>Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>On 2022-02-16 08:54:49 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>>>>>>>>>Intuitively, any driver will know that if they push their right foot
>>>>>>>>>all the way down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their car,
>>>>>>>>>but if they are driving on the motorway, they can push their right foot
>>>>>>>>>all the way to the floor and the wheels won't lose grip (Roland and
>>>>>>>>>Anna may have different experiences, as each of them have made
>>>>>>>>>references to owning or having owned "atypical" cars).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Well I know thats not true because some wheel driven land speed
>>>>>>>>record cars
>>>>>>>>started to have wheelsip at very high speed which limited their record
>>>>>>>>run max V
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>How many of us are driving land-speed-record cars on the streets?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Not the point as you well know.
>>>>>
>>>>>The point, dear boy, is discussing the verascity of the assertion:
>>>>>
>>>>> "any driver will know that if they push their right foot all the way
>>>>> down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their car"
>>>>>
>>>>>Notwithstanding I don't even think that's true of road-going cars, your
>>>>>record-breaking cars aren't even, by your own admission, travelling at
>>>>>"low speed".
>>>>>
>>>>I can spin the wheels on my humble Dacia Logan despite dry conditions,
>>>>a decent set of Michelins and being in ECO mode. ITYF most front wheel
>>>>drive cars will manage that when turning if not going dead ahead.
>>>
>>>Ah some more goalposts: "when turning". Can you spin the wheels (even
>>>when turning) from being rolling at say 15mph?
>>>
>>Yes if I am not steering dead ahead.
>
>Sounds like a suspension issue, with one of the driven wheels lifting up
>due to the cornering.
>
Any FWD/RWD vehicle I have driven has been capable of doing it when
turning, even a PO-special Bedford HA van de-rated to 21 horses. You
either need to give it enough welly (an expected action with only
21hp) and/or maybe have a road surface that encourages an initial
slip. Some cars have been infamous (earlier Renault Clio*?) for going
round corners (or the bends at Thruxton) or over uneven ground on
three wheels .

>>I tend to be in traffic at 15mph so experimentation is not always
>>advised.
>
>It's a speed I traverse when starting from a halt and eventually
>reaching 30, 40mph or whatever cruising speed on an open road. So not
>often constrained by traffic in front.

* Demonstrated on "That's Life" around 30y ago where someone had a
steep gradient up to their front drive from the road and didn't have
the brains to approach their front drive from the opposite direction
so that they attained a near right angle to get their shiny new car
in.

In message <8tl31hdnonv8c185tfifa6bitjlpo2a1lp@4ax.com>, at 06:21:34 on
Sun, 20 Feb 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 09:01:34 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <c3uv0h1vc8se2fu0ok5g66d69bvjl3mca3@4ax.com>, at 19:51:59 on
>>Fri, 18 Feb 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>remarked:
>>>On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 09:27:24 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <jb0u0hhf1ds1lgspp7p4ff2si0ef9e36ma@4ax.com>, at 02:21:43 on
>>>>Fri, 18 Feb 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>>remarked:
>>>>>On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 09:04:57 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>In message <sul2h7$1dfu$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:55:03 on Thu, 17 Feb
>>>>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 17:35:00 +0000
>>>>>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>In message <sujbp1$1dl4$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:20:33 on Wed, 16 Feb
>>>>>>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>>>On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 11:26:39 +0100
>>>>>>>>>Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>On 2022-02-16 08:54:49 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>>>>>>>>>>Intuitively, any driver will know that if they push their right foot
>>>>>>>>>>all the way down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their car,
>>>>>>>>>>but if they are driving on the motorway, they can push their
>>>>>>>>>>right foot
>>>>>>>>>>all the way to the floor and the wheels won't lose grip (Roland and
>>>>>>>>>>Anna may have different experiences, as each of them have made
>>>>>>>>>>references to owning or having owned "atypical" cars).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Well I know thats not true because some wheel driven land speed
>>>>>>>>>record cars
>>>>>>>>>started to have wheelsip at very high speed which limited their record
>>>>>>>>>run max V
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>How many of us are driving land-speed-record cars on the streets?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Not the point as you well know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The point, dear boy, is discussing the verascity of the assertion:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "any driver will know that if they push their right foot all the way
>>>>>> down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their car"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Notwithstanding I don't even think that's true of road-going cars, your
>>>>>>record-breaking cars aren't even, by your own admission, travelling at
>>>>>>"low speed".
>>>>>>
>>>>>I can spin the wheels on my humble Dacia Logan despite dry conditions,
>>>>>a decent set of Michelins and being in ECO mode. ITYF most front wheel
>>>>>drive cars will manage that when turning if not going dead ahead.
>>>>
>>>>Ah some more goalposts: "when turning". Can you spin the wheels (even
>>>>when turning) from being rolling at say 15mph?
>>>>
>>>Yes if I am not steering dead ahead.
>>
>>Sounds like a suspension issue, with one of the driven wheels lifting up
>>due to the cornering.
>>
>Any FWD/RWD vehicle I have driven has been capable of doing it when
>turning, even a PO-special Bedford HA van de-rated to 21 horses. You
>either need to give it enough welly (an expected action with only
>21hp) and/or maybe have a road surface that encourages an initial
>slip. Some cars have been infamous (earlier Renault Clio*?) for going
>round corners (or the bends at Thruxton) or over uneven ground on
>three wheels .

Like I said, that's a suspension issue. Never heard of anti-roll bars?

--
Roland Perry

In message <sus5ai$fgn$1@dont-email.me>, at 01:25:38 on Sun, 20 Feb
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> My SWB Land Rover was the other way around, with free-wheel hubs on the
>> front, so road-going almost always in RWD only.
>
>The freewheel hubs were an (aftermarket?) extra;

I think they were an official item.

>but even without them the choices were either rear wheel drive or four
>wheel drive, with the latter only for off-road use due to lack of
>centre differential.

You definitely benefited from 4WD in snow on-road.

>What the freewheel front hubs did, was to save fuel, because the front
>wheels otherwise constantly turn the front differential and driveshaft,
>even in 2wd mode. The freewheel hubs allowed those parts to remain
>stationary when no in use.

Tick.

--
Roland Perry

On 20/02/2022 06:21, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 09:01:34 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <c3uv0h1vc8se2fu0ok5g66d69bvjl3mca3@4ax.com>, at 19:51:59 on
>> Fri, 18 Feb 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>> remarked:
>>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 09:27:24 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <jb0u0hhf1ds1lgspp7p4ff2si0ef9e36ma@4ax.com>, at 02:21:43 on
>>>> Fri, 18 Feb 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 09:04:57 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <sul2h7$1dfu$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:55:03 on Thu, 17 Feb
>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 17:35:00 +0000
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <sujbp1$1dl4$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:20:33 on Wed, 16 Feb
>>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 11:26:39 +0100
>>>>>>>>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-02-16 08:54:49 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>>>>>>>>>> Intuitively, any driver will know that if they push their right foot
>>>>>>>>>> all the way down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their car,
>>>>>>>>>> but if they are driving on the motorway, they can push their right foot
>>>>>>>>>> all the way to the floor and the wheels won't lose grip (Roland and
>>>>>>>>>> Anna may have different experiences, as each of them have made
>>>>>>>>>> references to owning or having owned "atypical" cars).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well I know thats not true because some wheel driven land speed
>>>>>>>>> record cars
>>>>>>>>> started to have wheelsip at very high speed which limited their record
>>>>>>>>> run max V
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How many of us are driving land-speed-record cars on the streets?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not the point as you well know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The point, dear boy, is discussing the verascity of the assertion:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "any driver will know that if they push their right foot all the way
>>>>>> down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their car"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Notwithstanding I don't even think that's true of road-going cars, your
>>>>>> record-breaking cars aren't even, by your own admission, travelling at
>>>>>> "low speed".
>>>>>>
>>>>> I can spin the wheels on my humble Dacia Logan despite dry conditions,
>>>>> a decent set of Michelins and being in ECO mode. ITYF most front wheel
>>>>> drive cars will manage that when turning if not going dead ahead.
>>>>
>>>> Ah some more goalposts: "when turning". Can you spin the wheels (even
>>>> when turning) from being rolling at say 15mph?
>>>>
>>> Yes if I am not steering dead ahead.
>>
>> Sounds like a suspension issue, with one of the driven wheels lifting up
>> due to the cornering.
>>
> Any FWD/RWD vehicle I have driven has been capable of doing it when
> turning, even a PO-special Bedford HA van de-rated to 21 horses. You
> either need to give it enough welly (an expected action with only
> 21hp) and/or maybe have a road surface that encourages an initial
> slip. Some cars have been infamous (earlier Renault Clio*?) for going
> round corners (or the bends at Thruxton) or over uneven ground on
> three wheels .
>

Or, thinking back to the days of my youth, two wheels in a Reliant van!

--
Colin

On 18/02/2022 14:51, ColinR wrote:
> They are permitted. However, there should be fencing or a suitable
> alternative. This could be a safety harness and appropriate lifeline or,
> in the case of ports, self-inflating lifejackets.

And often / usually a safety boat for any work over water.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sus5ai$fgn$1@dont-email.me>, at 01:25:38 on Sun, 20 Feb
> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> My SWB Land Rover was the other way around, with free-wheel hubs on the
>>> front, so road-going almost always in RWD only.
>>
>> The freewheel hubs were an (aftermarket?) extra;
>
> I think they were an official item.
>
>> but even without them the choices were either rear wheel drive or four
>> wheel drive, with the latter only for off-road use due to lack of
>> centre differential.
>
> You definitely benefited from 4WD in snow on-road.
>

Ok, only for situations where at least one wheel can slip easily in order
to compensate for lack of centre diff.

Make sure you take it out of 4wd when the snow ends, before driving other
than in a straight line.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sus5ai$fgn$1@dont-email.me>, at 01:25:38 on Sun, 20 Feb
>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> My SWB Land Rover was the other way around, with free-wheel hubs on the
>>>> front, so road-going almost always in RWD only.
>>>
>>> The freewheel hubs were an (aftermarket?) extra;
>>
>> I think they were an official item.
>>
>>> but even without them the choices were either rear wheel drive or four
>>> wheel drive, with the latter only for off-road use due to lack of
>>> centre differential.
>>
>> You definitely benefited from 4WD in snow on-road.
>>
>
> Ok, only for situations where at least one wheel can slip easily in order
> to compensate for lack of centre diff.
>
> Make sure you take it out of 4wd when the snow ends, before driving other
> than in a straight line.

One is reminded of the Alvis Stalwart - 6 wheel drive and a single, very
limited diff!

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 11:31:19 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <8tl31hdnonv8c185tfifa6bitjlpo2a1lp@4ax.com>, at 06:21:34 on
>Sun, 20 Feb 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>remarked:
>>On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 09:01:34 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <c3uv0h1vc8se2fu0ok5g66d69bvjl3mca3@4ax.com>, at 19:51:59 on
>>>Fri, 18 Feb 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>remarked:
>>>>On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 09:27:24 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In message <jb0u0hhf1ds1lgspp7p4ff2si0ef9e36ma@4ax.com>, at 02:21:43 on
>>>>>Fri, 18 Feb 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>>>remarked:
>>>>>>On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 09:04:57 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In message <sul2h7$1dfu$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:55:03 on Thu, 17 Feb
>>>>>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>>On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 17:35:00 +0000
>>>>>>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>In message <sujbp1$1dl4$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:20:33 on Wed, 16 Feb
>>>>>>>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 11:26:39 +0100
>>>>>>>>>>Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>On 2022-02-16 08:54:49 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>>>>>>>>>>>Intuitively, any driver will know that if they push their right foot
>>>>>>>>>>>all the way down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their car,
>>>>>>>>>>>but if they are driving on the motorway, they can push their
>>>>>>>>>>>right foot
>>>>>>>>>>>all the way to the floor and the wheels won't lose grip (Roland and
>>>>>>>>>>>Anna may have different experiences, as each of them have made
>>>>>>>>>>>references to owning or having owned "atypical" cars).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Well I know thats not true because some wheel driven land speed
>>>>>>>>>>record cars
>>>>>>>>>>started to have wheelsip at very high speed which limited their record
>>>>>>>>>>run max V
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>How many of us are driving land-speed-record cars on the streets?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Not the point as you well know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The point, dear boy, is discussing the verascity of the assertion:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "any driver will know that if they push their right foot all the way
>>>>>>> down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their car"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Notwithstanding I don't even think that's true of road-going cars, your
>>>>>>>record-breaking cars aren't even, by your own admission, travelling at
>>>>>>>"low speed".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>I can spin the wheels on my humble Dacia Logan despite dry conditions,
>>>>>>a decent set of Michelins and being in ECO mode. ITYF most front wheel
>>>>>>drive cars will manage that when turning if not going dead ahead.
>>>>>
>>>>>Ah some more goalposts: "when turning". Can you spin the wheels (even
>>>>>when turning) from being rolling at say 15mph?
>>>>>
>>>>Yes if I am not steering dead ahead.
>>>
>>>Sounds like a suspension issue, with one of the driven wheels lifting up
>>>due to the cornering.
>>>
>>Any FWD/RWD vehicle I have driven has been capable of doing it when
>>turning, even a PO-special Bedford HA van de-rated to 21 horses. You
>>either need to give it enough welly (an expected action with only
>>21hp) and/or maybe have a road surface that encourages an initial
>>slip. Some cars have been infamous (earlier Renault Clio*?) for going
>>round corners (or the bends at Thruxton) or over uneven ground on
>>three wheels .
>
>Like I said, that's a suspension issue. Never heard of anti-roll bars?
>
So are you saying it is a fault or due to practical limitations on the
design of the suspension?

In message <b4461h599t8dm1ppn5vcesr1qq0j17sqpt@4ax.com>, at 04:10:41 on
Mon, 21 Feb 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:

>>>Any FWD/RWD vehicle I have driven has been capable of doing it when
>>>turning, even a PO-special Bedford HA van de-rated to 21 horses. You
>>>either need to give it enough welly (an expected action with only
>>>21hp) and/or maybe have a road surface that encourages an initial
>>>slip. Some cars have been infamous (earlier Renault Clio*?) for going
>>>round corners (or the bends at Thruxton) or over uneven ground on
>>>three wheels .
>>
>>Like I said, that's a suspension issue. Never heard of anti-roll bars?
>>
>So are you saying it is a fault or due to practical limitations on the
>design of the suspension?

I'm saying it's a consequence of not very good suspension design, rather
than a systemic lack of friction between tyre and road surface.

We seem to be drifting further and further away from the original
proposition which I claim involved routine spinning the wheels of cars
(by implication on a straight dry road while already in motion) by
applying too much welly.

That has to be the proposition, because only an extreme pedant would
validate the phrase "any driver will know that if they push their right
foot all the way down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their
car", by saying it was possible on a skid-pan.
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 06:56:42 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <b4461h599t8dm1ppn5vcesr1qq0j17sqpt@4ax.com>, at 04:10:41 on
>Mon, 21 Feb 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>remarked:
>
>>>>Any FWD/RWD vehicle I have driven has been capable of doing it when
>>>>turning, even a PO-special Bedford HA van de-rated to 21 horses. You
>>>>either need to give it enough welly (an expected action with only
>>>>21hp) and/or maybe have a road surface that encourages an initial
>>>>slip. Some cars have been infamous (earlier Renault Clio*?) for going
>>>>round corners (or the bends at Thruxton) or over uneven ground on
>>>>three wheels .
>>>
>>>Like I said, that's a suspension issue. Never heard of anti-roll bars?
>>>
>>So are you saying it is a fault or due to practical limitations on the
>>design of the suspension?
>
>I'm saying it's a consequence of not very good suspension design, rather
>than a systemic lack of friction between tyre and road surface.
>
It is good enough to be type-approved and allow the vehicle to be
otherwise driven safely.

>We seem to be drifting further and further away from the original
>proposition which I claim involved routine spinning the wheels of cars
>(by implication on a straight dry road while already in motion) by
>applying too much welly.
>
>That has to be the proposition, because only an extreme pedant would
>validate the phrase "any driver will know that if they push their right
>foot all the way down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their
>car", by saying it was possible on a skid-pan.
>
On a dry road it was certainly harder to do it with older
small-engined cars. With modern cars having more efficient engines it
is likely to be easier but not necessarily always possible. When I
changed to my current vehicle it took a few days adjusting to it
before avoiding a minor bit of occasional wheelspin. (65 up from 59hp
IIRC but the older vehicle had a heavier engine).

On 18/02/2022 11:31, Roland Perry wrote:
> From the vehicle manual: "helps to keep the vehicle under control by
> manipulating the engine output and applying the brakes at individual
> wheels."

I never had any confidence in Freelander's Hill Descent Control (I think
that was the name) - a couple of times I had to take the Discovery down
a steep hill covered in ice but would not have attempted it in the
Freeloader.

I had a Renault "SUV" with 4WD and TC for a few years, always wondered
which was more important 4WD or TC?

On 18/02/2022 12:40, Roland Perry wrote:
> And what about the situation of flooring the accelerator at a speed of
> perhaps 15mph (on a dry road). Is that more or less likely to spin the
> wheels of a medium family car.

On a company driving course we were told to stop in a very muddy puddle
and floor the accelorator, quite impressive demonstration of TC.

In message <suvj9k$blk$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:42:29 on Mon, 21 Feb
2022, MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:

>On 18/02/2022 11:31, Roland Perry wrote:

>> From the vehicle manual: "helps to keep the vehicle under control by
>> manipulating the engine output and applying the brakes at individual
>> wheels."
>
>I never had any confidence in Freelander's Hill Descent Control (I
>think that was the name)

If it didn't work, I'm sure the petrol-head reviewers in the various
specialist mags (who generally give the Freelander top ratings) would
have called them out.

> - a couple of times I had to take the Discovery down a steep hill
>covered in ice but would not have attempted it in the Freeloader.

Did that Disco have the same HDC?

>I had a Renault "SUV" with 4WD and TC for a few years, always wondered
>which was more important 4WD or TC?

It depends on your usage. People often conflate 4WD with better traction
on otherwise fairly flat, but slippery, terrain. Where something like a
Land Rover comes in handy, is 4WD on terrain where something with less
ground clearance would be unable to proceed at all.

See 13:40 mins in here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9vUrgN-YYk

(mine has roof-bars too, same colour)

Love to see recliner doing that in a Mondeo.
--
Roland Perry

On 21/02/2022 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
> If it didn't work, I'm sure the petrol-head reviewers in the various
> specialist mags (who generally give the Freelander top ratings) would
> have called them out.
>
> Did that Disco have the same HDC?
>
> It depends on your usage. People often conflate 4WD with better traction
> on otherwise fairly flat, but slippery, terrain. Where something like a
> Land Rover comes in handy, is 4WD on terrain where something with less
> ground clearance would be unable to proceed at all.

We has proper Discoverys with Low Ratio and Diff Lock almost from the
earliest version (when they still looked good). As I wrote, I have
driven down sheet ice on a steep hill in one of them, would not attempt
that in the Freelander.

Our other big problem with the Freelander was the poor ground clearance.
It was not the ideal vehicle for us, I would have preferred a Land Rover
but most preferred the Freelander because it was personal issue and
available off duty and to their family.

We had to attend an off road driving course, the "expert" sent me over
some ground covered in rocks so you had to carefully drive actually over
the rocks (somewhere we would never go in real life). Earlier one of
the others had to reverse up a very steep hill so the clutch failed
whilst I was using it - it was about a year old so about the time that
Freelander clutches fail!

On 2022-02-21 06:56:42 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> In message <b4461h599t8dm1ppn5vcesr1qq0j17sqpt@4ax.com>, at 04:10:41 on
> Mon, 21 Feb 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
> remarked:
>
>>>> Any FWD/RWD vehicle I have driven has been capable of doing it when
>>>> turning, even a PO-special Bedford HA van de-rated to 21 horses. You
>>>> either need to give it enough welly (an expected action with only
>>>> 21hp) and/or maybe have a road surface that encourages an initial
>>>> slip. Some cars have been infamous (earlier Renault Clio*?) for going
>>>> round corners (or the bends at Thruxton) or over uneven ground on
>>>> three wheels .
>>>
>>> Like I said, that's a suspension issue. Never heard of anti-roll bars?
>>>
>> So are you saying it is a fault or due to practical limitations on the
>> design of the suspension?
>
> I'm saying it's a consequence of not very good suspension design,
> rather than a systemic lack of friction between tyre and road surface.
>
> We seem to be drifting further and further away from the original
> proposition which I claim involved routine spinning the wheels of cars
> (by implication on a straight dry road while already in motion) by
> applying too much welly.
>
> That has to be the proposition, because only an extreme pedant would
> validate the phrase "any driver will know that if they push their right
> foot all the way down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their
> car", by saying it was possible on a skid-pan.

While there are plenty of cases of cars that won't ever spin their
wheels if, for example, you mash the accelerator from a standing start,
I think it is likely that most drivers will have, at some point, driven
a car that will. Very few people learn to drive on, and spend their
entire life exclusively driving, cars with 4wd, clever traction control
etc. Most people have driving a variety of types of car over their
lives.

Robin

On 2022-02-18 17:58:36 +0000, Sam Wilson said:

> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 16/02/2022 14:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <aurp0h9jjfks9al53ao5j4rm0b0mjdbqco@4ax.com>, at 12:37:51 on
>>> Wed, 16 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> Britishvolt, which is also planning a "gigafactory" in Northumberland
>>>> to make electric car batteries, has set out plans to recycle more than
>>>> 10,000 tonnes of battery packs a year.
>>>>
>>>> It aims to power the new centre, in Northfleet, with wind and solar
>>>> energy.
>>>
>>> Not exclusively, though, unless they install a very big set of their own
>>> batteries. Sometimes we have a whole week with virtually no wind/sun,
>>> and this time of year just no-wind would mean operating for only perhaps
>>> five hours a day.
>>
>> Northfleet is near the coast - use reliable tidal power instead.
>
> … which drops to zero (locally) approximately 4 times a day.

A tidal barrage with two separate storage pounds can manage water
levels in such a way that it should always be able to generate some
power. With the demise of actual shipping uses for the docks in East
London, I'm surprised nobody has suggested using something like the
Royal Docks as a tidal energy storage facility. The Royal Docks have
plenty of volume, and the tidal range of the Thames in that reach ought
to allow for a reasonable amount of energy to be produced.

Robin

In message <suvp1a$j88$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:20:27 on Mon, 21 Feb
2022, MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>On 21/02/2022 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>> If it didn't work, I'm sure the petrol-head reviewers in the various
>> specialist mags (who generally give the Freelander top ratings) would
>> have called them out.

>> Did that Disco have the same HDC?

>> It depends on your usage. People often conflate 4WD with better
>>traction on otherwise fairly flat, but slippery, terrain. Where
>>something like a Land Rover comes in handy, is 4WD on terrain where
>>something with less ground clearance would be unable to proceed at all.
>
>We has proper Discoverys with Low Ratio and Diff Lock almost from the
>earliest version (when they still looked good). As I wrote, I have
>driven down sheet ice on a steep hill in one of them, would not attempt
>that in the Freelander.

You've not given a plausible reason why.

>Our other big problem with the Freelander was the poor ground
>clearance.

That was a criticism of the Freelander 1 (fixed in the Freelander 2).

The F1 was a fork from the Honda CRV, and not really intended to be a
fully fledged off-roader.

--
Roland Perry

In message <suvpe6$lrk$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:27:18 on Mon, 21 Feb
2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>On 2022-02-21 06:56:42 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> In message <b4461h599t8dm1ppn5vcesr1qq0j17sqpt@4ax.com>, at 04:10:41
>>on Mon, 21 Feb 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>remarked:
>>
>>>>> Any FWD/RWD vehicle I have driven has been capable of doing it
>>>>>
>>>>> turning, even a PO-special Bedford HA van de-rated to 21 horses. You
>>>>> either need to give it enough welly (an expected action with only
>>>>> 21hp) and/or maybe have a road surface that encourages an initial
>>>>> slip. Some cars have been infamous (earlier Renault Clio*?) for going
>>>>> round corners (or the bends at Thruxton) or over uneven ground on
>>>>> three wheels .

>>>> Like I said, that's a suspension issue. Never heard of anti-roll
>>>>bars?
>>>>
>>> So are you saying it is a fault or due to practical limitations on
>>>the design of the suspension?

>> I'm saying it's a consequence of not very good suspension design,
>>rather than a systemic lack of friction between tyre and road surface.

>> We seem to be drifting further and further away from the original
>>proposition which I claim involved routine spinning the wheels of cars
>>(by implication on a straight dry road while already in motion) by
>>applying too much welly.

>> That has to be the proposition, because only an extreme pedant would
>>validate the phrase "any driver will know that if they push their
>>right foot all the way down at low speed, they will spin the wheels
>>on their car", by saying it was possible on a skid-pan.
>
>While there are plenty of cases of cars that won't ever spin their
>wheels if, for example, you mash the accelerator from a standing start,
>I think it is likely that most drivers will have, at some point, driven
>a car that will. Very few people learn to drive on, and spend their
>entire life exclusively driving, cars with 4wd, clever traction control
>etc. Most people have driving a variety of types of car over their lives.

OK, so can we edit the assertion:

"any driver will know that if they push their right foot all the way
down at low speed, they might have spun the wheels of one of the
cars they've previously owned".
--
Roland Perry

On 21/02/2022 10:31, Bob wrote:
> On 2022-02-18 17:58:36 +0000, Sam Wilson said:
>
>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 16/02/2022 14:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <aurp0h9jjfks9al53ao5j4rm0b0mjdbqco@4ax.com>, at 12:37:51 on
>>>> Wed, 16 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> Britishvolt, which is also planning a "gigafactory" in Northumberland
>>>>> to make electric car batteries, has set out plans to recycle more than
>>>>> 10,000 tonnes of battery packs a year.
>>>>>
>>>>> It aims to power the new centre, in Northfleet, with wind and solar
>>>>> energy.
>>>>
>>>> Not exclusively, though, unless they install a very big set of their
>>>> own
>>>> batteries. Sometimes we have a whole week with virtually no wind/sun,
>>>> and this time of year just no-wind would mean operating for only
>>>> perhaps
>>>> five hours a day.
>>>
>>> Northfleet is near the coast - use reliable tidal power instead.
>>
>> … which drops to zero (locally) approximately 4 times a day.
>
> A tidal barrage with two separate storage pounds can manage water levels
> in such a way that it should always be able to generate some power.
> With the demise of actual shipping uses for the docks in East London,
> I'm surprised nobody has suggested using something like the Royal Docks
> as a tidal energy storage facility.  The Royal Docks have plenty of
> volume, and the tidal range of the Thames in that reach ought to allow
> for a reasonable amount of energy to be produced.
>

Aren't they all being repurposed as marinas for Russian Oligarchs to
park their yachts?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <suvp1a$j88$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:20:27 on Mon, 21 Feb
..
>
>> Our other big problem with the Freelander was the poor ground
>> clearance.
>
> That was a criticism of the Freelander 1 (fixed in the Freelander 2).
>
> The F1 was a fork from the Honda CRV, and not really intended to be a
> fully fledged off-roader.
>

Are you quite sure of that? I didn't think that the original Freelander
had nothing to do with any Honda. I think you're demonstrating your New
Scientist 'little knowledge' syndrome.

If you do some research, you'll discover that the Freelander 1 was actually
based on the Morris Maestro van. Try looking up the history of the
Pathfinder, Oden and CB40 projects.

So, F1 was a Maestro on stilts, and F2 a Mondeo on stilts.