In message <jb0u0hhf1ds1lgspp7p4ff2si0ef9e36ma@4ax.com>, at 02:21:43 on
Fri, 18 Feb 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 09:04:57 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <sul2h7$1dfu$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:55:03 on Thu, 17 Feb
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 17:35:00 +0000
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>In message <sujbp1$1dl4$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:20:33 on Wed, 16 Feb
>>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 11:26:39 +0100
>>>>>Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>On 2022-02-16 08:54:49 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>>>>>>Intuitively, any driver will know that if they push their right foot
>>>>>>all the way down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their car,
>>>>>>but if they are driving on the motorway, they can push their right foot
>>>>>>all the way to the floor and the wheels won't lose grip (Roland and
>>>>>>Anna may have different experiences, as each of them have made
>>>>>>references to owning or having owned "atypical" cars).
>>>>>
>>>>>Well I know thats not true because some wheel driven land speed record cars
>>>>>started to have wheelsip at very high speed which limited their record
>>>>>run max V
>>>>
>>>>How many of us are driving land-speed-record cars on the streets?
>>>
>>>Not the point as you well know.
>>
>>The point, dear boy, is discussing the verascity of the assertion:
>>
>> "any driver will know that if they push their right foot all the way
>> down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their car"
>>
>>Notwithstanding I don't even think that's true of road-going cars, your
>>record-breaking cars aren't even, by your own admission, travelling at
>>"low speed".
>>
>I can spin the wheels on my humble Dacia Logan despite dry conditions,
>a decent set of Michelins and being in ECO mode. ITYF most front wheel
>drive cars will manage that when turning if not going dead ahead.

Ah some more goalposts: "when turning". Can you spin the wheels (even
when turning) from being rolling at say 15mph?
--
Roland Perry

On 18/02/2022 09:24, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sum4an$4gu$3@dont-email.me>, at 18:31:51 on Thu, 17 Feb
> 2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>>>>>>> "any driver will know that if they push their right foot all the
>>>>>>>> way down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their car"
> ...
>>>> My 100kW 1.5 tonne electric will spin on take off from standing far too
>>>> easily; that's a different speed/torque curve and no gears.
>>>>
>>> Don’t electric cars have traction control?
>>
>> It claims "electronic stability programme (ESP) with anti-slip regulation
>> (ASR) and understeer control (UCL)".
>>
>> And I suppose it does, because the the wheels don't go on slipping and
>> the car keeps going the right way, even when cornering, but they
>> certainly slip a bit if you pull away sharpish, you can feel it.
>
> There's a difference between pulling away from stationary, and being at
> a low speed. (I'm not sure anyone gave a figure for that, but let's fly
> a kite at 15mph)
>

Good luck trying to fly a kite today!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 09:53:52 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 18/02/2022 09:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sum4an$4gu$3@dont-email.me>, at 18:31:51 on Thu, 17 Feb
>> 2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>>>>>>> "any driver will know that if they push their right foot all the
>>>>>>>>> way down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their car"
>> ...
>>>>> My 100kW 1.5 tonne electric will spin on take off from standing far too
>>>>> easily; that's a different speed/torque curve and no gears.
>>>>>
>>>> Don’t electric cars have traction control?
>>>
>>> It claims "electronic stability programme (ESP) with anti-slip regulation
>>> (ASR) and understeer control (UCL)".
>>>
>>> And I suppose it does, because the the wheels don't go on slipping and
>>> the car keeps going the right way, even when cornering, but they
>>> certainly slip a bit if you pull away sharpish, you can feel it.
>>
>> There's a difference between pulling away from stationary, and being at
>> a low speed. (I'm not sure anyone gave a figure for that, but let's fly
>> a kite at 15mph)
>>
>
>Good luck trying to fly a kite today!

Flying it wouldn't be a problem, getting it back might be problematic!

On 18/02/2022 09:24, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sum4an$4gu$3@dont-email.me>, at 18:31:51 on Thu, 17 Feb
> 2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>>>>>>> "any driver will know that if they push their right foot all the
>>>>>>>> way down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their car"
> ...
>>>> My 100kW 1.5 tonne electric will spin on take off from standing far too
>>>> easily; that's a different speed/torque curve and no gears.
>>>>
>>> Don’t electric cars have traction control?
>>
>> It claims "electronic stability programme (ESP) with anti-slip regulation
>> (ASR) and understeer control (UCL)".
>>
>> And I suppose it does, because the the wheels don't go on slipping and
>> the car keeps going the right way, even when cornering, but they
>> certainly slip a bit if you pull away sharpish, you can feel it.
>
> There's a difference between pulling away from stationary, and being at
> a low speed. (I'm not sure anyone gave a figure for that, but let's fly
> a kite at 15mph)
>

Static and dynamic coefficients of friction are normally different;
static friction is normally greater than dynamic friction.

In message <sujuvu$mkk$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:48:30 on Wed, 16 Feb
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>>>>>>>>>>I have a reasonably powered 4x4 but have never been able to
>>>>>>>>>>the wheels.
....
>>>>>>>>>> Some of that might be the transmission deliberately stopping
>>>>>>>>>> doing so, but then I wouldn't expect to spin the wheels,
>>>>>>>>>> than from rest, on the majority of cars I've had.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You would hear it if the DSC was cutting the power.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The only time I've heard/felt anything was once on a bend covered in
>>>>>>>> ice, when the power reduced very slightly all by itself.

From the vehicle manual: "helps to keep the vehicle under control by
manipulating the engine output and applying the brakes at individual
wheels."

That's all four wheels. And why the transmission is so complicated and
expensive.

>>>>>>>> And that was when I was in the extra "icy road" mode. It
>>>>>>>>doesn't so much cut the power, as not let you apply it in the
>>>>>>>>first place, due to the fly-by wire.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It probably starts in a higher gear (eg, third) in that mode. That would
>>>>>>> significantly reduce the torque at the wheels.

Turns out it's the complete opposite. Which also explains why it feels
as if the car is "holding the driver back".

It starts in gear 1, and doesn't change up until 2,200 rpm (~12mph).

Normally it would change up [all of this in normal driving] at 1800rpm.

>>>>>> I'll try that out tomorrow. It's a bit reluctant to say what gear it's
>>>>>> in and starting off in 3rd at 1,000 rpm doesn't sound a very likely
>>>>>> combination.

3rd gear is 1,000 rpm @15mph

>>>>> It may normally start in 2nd in D,
>>>>
>>>> I very much doubt it. But will try this tomorrow.
>>>>
>>>>> and 1st only in S, so the Ice mode would move up a gear.
>>>>
>>>> What sort of ground-speed would you expect from 1,000 rpm in third?
>>>
>>> Why would it be so high? Won't it idle much lower?
>>
>> I'm not sure that a standing start in 3rd while idling is something
>> which makes any sense at all.
>>
>>> But I don't know the ratios in your car.
>>>
>>> Perhaps you could do an experiment to find out: start in S mode, and try
>>> and detect when it changes into third. You should be able to estimate the
>>> ratio.

See above: 15mph per 1,000 rpm; which means if it allowed you, that'd be
"only" 4,000 rpm at 60mph.

I'm afraid I can't log gear changes while doing standing quarter-miles,
because there's too much to look at in addition to the road ahead. Not
least because it doesn't tell you what gear you are in unless in "S"
*after* you have manually changed gear. But a quick manual flip up/down
will reveal that.

>> I can barely detect it changing gear. My only resource here is seeing if
>> the dashboard will display the gear it's in, which it might only do when
>> in manual-change mode. But that would at least give the rpm/speed in 3rd
>> gear.
>
>Couldn't you use the tachometer to detect the gear changes?

That doesn't tell me which gears it's changing between.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sunqbg$fvd$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:53:52 on Fri, 18 Feb
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 18/02/2022 09:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sum4an$4gu$3@dont-email.me>, at 18:31:51 on Thu, 17 Feb
>>2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>>>>>>> "any driver will know that if they push their right foot all
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> way down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their car"
>> ...
>>>>> My 100kW 1.5 tonne electric will spin on take off from standing far too
>>>>> easily; that's a different speed/torque curve and no gears.
>>>>>
>>>> Don’t electric cars have traction control?
>>>
>>> It claims "electronic stability programme (ESP) with anti-slip regulation
>>> (ASR) and understeer control (UCL)".
>>>
>>> And I suppose it does, because the the wheels don't go on slipping and
>>> the car keeps going the right way, even when cornering, but they
>>> certainly slip a bit if you pull away sharpish, you can feel it.

>> There's a difference between pulling away from stationary, and being
>>at a low speed. (I'm not sure anyone gave a figure for that, but
>>let's fly a kite at 15mph)
>
>Good luck trying to fly a kite today!

Bait, taken :)

But the winds so far are nothing like as fierce as predicted.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sunupr$chm$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:48 on Fri, 18 Feb
2022, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>On 18/02/2022 09:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sum4an$4gu$3@dont-email.me>, at 18:31:51 on Thu, 17 Feb
>>2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>>>>>>> "any driver will know that if they push their right foot all
>>>>>>>>> way down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their
>>>>>>>>>
>> ...
>>>>> My 100kW 1.5 tonne electric will spin on take off from standing far too
>>>>> easily; that's a different speed/torque curve and no gears.
>>>>>
>>>> Don’t electric cars have traction control?
>>>
>>> It claims "electronic stability programme (ESP) with anti-slip regulation
>>> (ASR) and understeer control (UCL)".
>>>
>>> And I suppose it does, because the the wheels don't go on slipping and
>>> the car keeps going the right way, even when cornering, but they
>>> certainly slip a bit if you pull away sharpish, you can feel it.

>> There's a difference between pulling away from stationary, and being
>>at a low speed. (I'm not sure anyone gave a figure for that, but
>>let's fly a kite at 15mph)
>
>Static and dynamic coefficients of friction are normally different;
>static friction is normally greater than dynamic friction.

Can you contextualise that wrt to the claim that "any driver will
know..."
--
Roland Perry

On 18/02/2022 11:33, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sunupr$chm$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:48 on Fri, 18 Feb
> 2022, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On 18/02/2022 09:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <sum4an$4gu$3@dont-email.me>, at 18:31:51 on Thu, 17 Feb
>>> 2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "any driver will know that if they push their right foot all
>>>>>>>>>>  way down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their
>>> ...
>>>>>> My 100kW 1.5 tonne electric will spin on take off from standing
>>>>>> far too
>>>>>> easily; that's a different speed/torque curve and no gears.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Don’t electric cars have traction control?
>>>>
>>>> It claims "electronic stability programme (ESP) with anti-slip
>>>> regulation
>>>> (ASR) and understeer control (UCL)".
>>>>
>>>> And I suppose it does, because the the wheels don't go on slipping and
>>>> the car keeps going the right way, even when cornering, but they
>>>> certainly slip a bit if you pull away sharpish, you can feel it.
>
>>>  There's a difference between pulling away from stationary, and being
>>> at  a low speed. (I'm not sure anyone gave a figure for that, but
>>> let's fly  a kite at 15mph)
>>
>> Static and dynamic coefficients of friction are normally different;
>> static friction is normally greater than dynamic friction.
>
> Can you contextualise that wrt to the claim that "any driver will know..."

It needs a higher force to start a vehicle than to keep it moving at its
initial starting speed. If the difference between static & dynamic
friction is big, you can apply so much force that slipping is liable to
occur. This is especially noticeable when dynamic friction is further
reduced, e.g. by the presence of ice, water or oil.

On 18/02/2022 11:32, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sunqbg$fvd$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:53:52 on Fri, 18 Feb
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 18/02/2022 09:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <sum4an$4gu$3@dont-email.me>, at 18:31:51 on Thu, 17 Feb
>>> 2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "any driver will know that if they push their right foot all
>>>>>>>>>> way down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their car"
>>> ...
>>>>>> My 100kW 1.5 tonne electric will spin on take off from standing
>>>>>> far too
>>>>>> easily; that's a different speed/torque curve and no gears.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Don’t electric cars have traction control?
>>>>
>>>> It claims "electronic stability programme (ESP) with anti-slip
>>>> regulation
>>>> (ASR) and understeer control (UCL)".
>>>>
>>>> And I suppose it does, because the the wheels don't go on slipping and
>>>> the car keeps going the right way, even when cornering, but they
>>>> certainly slip a bit if you pull away sharpish, you can feel it.
>
>>>  There's a difference between pulling away from stationary, and being
>>> at  a low speed. (I'm not sure anyone gave a figure for that, but
>>> let's fly  a kite at 15mph)
>>
>> Good luck trying to fly a kite today!
>
> Bait, taken :)
>
> But the winds so far are nothing like as fierce as predicted.

50 knots plus at Heathrow at midday. Give it time.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 18/02/2022 12:30, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 18/02/2022 11:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sunqbg$fvd$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:53:52 on Fri, 18 Feb
>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 18/02/2022 09:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <sum4an$4gu$3@dont-email.me>, at 18:31:51 on Thu, 17 Feb
>>>> 2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "any driver will know that if they push their right foot all
>>>>>>>>>>> way down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their car"
>>>> ...
>>>>>>> My 100kW 1.5 tonne electric will spin on take off from standing
>>>>>>> far too
>>>>>>> easily; that's a different speed/torque curve and no gears.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don’t electric cars have traction control?
>>>>>
>>>>> It claims "electronic stability programme (ESP) with anti-slip
>>>>> regulation
>>>>> (ASR) and understeer control (UCL)".
>>>>>
>>>>> And I suppose it does, because the the wheels don't go on slipping and
>>>>> the car keeps going the right way, even when cornering, but they
>>>>> certainly slip a bit if you pull away sharpish, you can feel it.
>>
>>>>  There's a difference between pulling away from stationary, and
>>>> being at  a low speed. (I'm not sure anyone gave a figure for that,
>>>> but let's fly  a kite at 15mph)
>>>
>>> Good luck trying to fly a kite today!
>>
>> Bait, taken :)
>>
>> But the winds so far are nothing like as fierce as predicted.
>
> 50 knots plus at Heathrow at midday. Give it time.
>

As a follow up: 122 mph recorded on the Isle of Wight. Highest ever
recorded in England.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <suo3h4$ahj$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:30:28 on Fri, 18 Feb
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 18/02/2022 11:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sunqbg$fvd$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:53:52 on Fri, 18 Feb
>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 18/02/2022 09:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <sum4an$4gu$3@dont-email.me>, at 18:31:51 on Thu, 17 Feb
>>>>2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "any driver will know that if they push their right foot all
>>>>>>>>>>> way down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their car"
>>>> ...
>>>>>>> My 100kW 1.5 tonne electric will spin on take off from standing
>>>>>>>far too
>>>>>>> easily; that's a different speed/torque curve and no gears.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don’t electric cars have traction control?
>>>>>
>>>>> It claims "electronic stability programme (ESP) with anti-slip
>>>>>regulation
>>>>> (ASR) and understeer control (UCL)".
>>>>>
>>>>> And I suppose it does, because the the wheels don't go on slipping and
>>>>> the car keeps going the right way, even when cornering, but they
>>>>> certainly slip a bit if you pull away sharpish, you can feel it.
>>
>>>>  There's a difference between pulling away from stationary, and
>>>>being at  a low speed. (I'm not sure anyone gave a figure for
>>>>that, but let's fly  a kite at 15mph)
>>>
>>> Good luck trying to fly a kite today!

>> Bait, taken :)
>> But the winds so far are nothing like as fierce as predicted.
>
>50 knots plus at Heathrow at midday. Give it time.

Yes, but it's later than predicted (which is entirely consistent with
blowing slower than predicted).
--
Roland Perry

In message <suo2m3$t3i$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:16:03 on Fri, 18 Feb
2022, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>On 18/02/2022 11:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sunupr$chm$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:48 on Fri, 18 Feb
>>2022, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On 18/02/2022 09:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <sum4an$4gu$3@dont-email.me>, at 18:31:51 on Thu, 17 Feb
>>>>2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "any driver will know that if they push their right foot all
>>>>>>>>>>> way down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their
>>>> ...
>>>>>>> My 100kW 1.5 tonne electric will spin on take off from standing
>>>>>>>far too
>>>>>>> easily; that's a different speed/torque curve and no gears.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don’t electric cars have traction control?
>>>>>
>>>>> It claims "electronic stability programme (ESP) with anti-slip
>>>>>regulation
>>>>> (ASR) and understeer control (UCL)".
>>>>>
>>>>> And I suppose it does, because the the wheels don't go on slipping and
>>>>> the car keeps going the right way, even when cornering, but they
>>>>> certainly slip a bit if you pull away sharpish, you can feel it.
>>
>>>>  There's a difference between pulling away from stationary, and
>>>>being at  a low speed. (I'm not sure anyone gave a figure for
>>>>that, but let's fly  a kite at 15mph)
>>>
>>> Static and dynamic coefficients of friction are normally different;
>>>static friction is normally greater than dynamic friction.

>> Can you contextualise that wrt to the claim that "any driver will
>>know..."
>
>It needs a higher force to start a vehicle than to keep it moving at
>its initial starting speed. If the difference between static & dynamic
>friction is big, you can apply so much force that slipping is liable to
>occur. This is especially noticeable when dynamic friction is further
>reduced, e.g. by the presence of ice, water or oil.

And what about the situation of flooring the accelerator at a speed of
perhaps 15mph (on a dry road). Is that more or less likely to spin the
wheels of a medium family car.
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 11:31:17 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <sujuvu$mkk$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:48:30 on Wed, 16 Feb
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>>>>>>>>>I have a reasonably powered 4x4 but have never been able to
>>>>>>>>>>>the wheels.
>...
>>>>>>>>>>> Some of that might be the transmission deliberately stopping
>>>>>>>>>>> doing so, but then I wouldn't expect to spin the wheels,
>>>>>>>>>>> than from rest, on the majority of cars I've had.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You would hear it if the DSC was cutting the power.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The only time I've heard/felt anything was once on a bend covered in
>>>>>>>>> ice, when the power reduced very slightly all by itself.
>
> From the vehicle manual: "helps to keep the vehicle under control by
>manipulating the engine output and applying the brakes at individual
>wheels."
>
>That's all four wheels. And why the transmission is so complicated and
>expensive.
>
>>>>>>>>> And that was when I was in the extra "icy road" mode. It
>>>>>>>>>doesn't so much cut the power, as not let you apply it in the
>>>>>>>>>first place, due to the fly-by wire.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It probably starts in a higher gear (eg, third) in that mode. That would
>>>>>>>> significantly reduce the torque at the wheels.
>
>Turns out it's the complete opposite. Which also explains why it feels
>as if the car is "holding the driver back".
>
>It starts in gear 1, and doesn't change up until 2,200 rpm (~12mph).

Which mode is that?

>
>Normally it would change up [all of this in normal driving] at 1800rpm.
>
>>>>>>> I'll try that out tomorrow. It's a bit reluctant to say what gear it's
>>>>>>> in and starting off in 3rd at 1,000 rpm doesn't sound a very likely
>>>>>>> combination.
>
>3rd gear is 1,000 rpm @15mph
>
>>>>>> It may normally start in 2nd in D,
>>>>>
>>>>> I very much doubt it. But will try this tomorrow.
>>>>>
>>>>>> and 1st only in S, so the Ice mode would move up a gear.
>>>>>
>>>>> What sort of ground-speed would you expect from 1,000 rpm in third?
>>>>
>>>> Why would it be so high? Won't it idle much lower?
>>>
>>> I'm not sure that a standing start in 3rd while idling is something
>>> which makes any sense at all.
>>>
>>>> But I don't know the ratios in your car.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps you could do an experiment to find out: start in S mode, and try
>>>> and detect when it changes into third. You should be able to estimate the
>>>> ratio.
>
>See above: 15mph per 1,000 rpm; which means if it allowed you, that'd be
>"only" 4,000 rpm at 60mph.
>
>I'm afraid I can't log gear changes while doing standing quarter-miles,
>because there's too much to look at in addition to the road ahead. Not
>least because it doesn't tell you what gear you are in unless in "S"
>*after* you have manually changed gear. But a quick manual flip up/down
>will reveal that.
>
>>> I can barely detect it changing gear. My only resource here is seeing if
>>> the dashboard will display the gear it's in, which it might only do when
>>> in manual-change mode. But that would at least give the rpm/speed in 3rd
>>> gear.
>>
>>Couldn't you use the tachometer to detect the gear changes?
>
>That doesn't tell me which gears it's changing between.

Not directly, but you can't count the changes.

On 18/02/2022 12:39, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <suo3h4$ahj$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:30:28 on Fri, 18 Feb
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 18/02/2022 11:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <sunqbg$fvd$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:53:52 on Fri, 18 Feb
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 18/02/2022 09:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <sum4an$4gu$3@dont-email.me>, at 18:31:51 on Thu, 17 Feb
>>>>> 2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "any driver will know that if they push their right foot all
>>>>>>>>>>>> way down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their car"
>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> My 100kW 1.5 tonne electric will spin on take off from standing
>>>>>>>> far too
>>>>>>>> easily; that's a different speed/torque curve and no gears.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don’t electric cars have traction control?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It claims "electronic stability programme (ESP) with anti-slip
>>>>>> regulation
>>>>>> (ASR) and understeer control (UCL)".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And I suppose it does, because the the wheels don't go on slipping
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> the car keeps going the right way, even when cornering, but they
>>>>>> certainly slip a bit if you pull away sharpish, you can feel it.
>>>
>>>>>  There's a difference between pulling away from stationary, and
>>>>> being  at  a low speed. (I'm not sure anyone gave a figure for
>>>>> that, but  let's fly  a kite at 15mph)
>>>>
>>>> Good luck trying to fly a kite today!
>
>>>  Bait, taken :)
>>>  But the winds so far are nothing like as fierce as predicted.
>>
>> 50 knots plus at Heathrow at midday. Give it time.
>
> Yes, but it's later than predicted (which is entirely consistent with
> blowing slower than predicted).

Just been for a walk this afternoon, lovely sunny calm day up here!!

--
Colin

In message <mc6v0hhn3cdjriduplcbm4i9dn7rrsaa40@4ax.com>, at 13:06:21 on
Fri, 18 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 11:31:17 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <sujuvu$mkk$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:48:30 on Wed, 16 Feb
>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>I have a reasonably powered 4x4 but have never been able to
>>>>>>>>>>>>the wheels.
>>...
>>>>>>>>>>>> Some of that might be the transmission deliberately stopping
>>>>>>>>>>>> doing so, but then I wouldn't expect to spin the wheels,
>>>>>>>>>>>> than from rest, on the majority of cars I've had.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You would hear it if the DSC was cutting the power.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The only time I've heard/felt anything was once on a bend covered in
>>>>>>>>>> ice, when the power reduced very slightly all by itself.
>>
>> From the vehicle manual: "helps to keep the vehicle under control by
>>manipulating the engine output and applying the brakes at individual
>>wheels."
>>
>>That's all four wheels. And why the transmission is so complicated and
>>expensive.
>>
>>>>>>>>>> And that was when I was in the extra "icy road" mode.
***************************************

>>>>>>>>>>It doesn't so much cut the power, as not let you apply it in
>>>>>>>>>>the first place, due to the fly-by wire.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It probably starts in a higher gear (eg, third) in that mode.
>>>>>>>>>That would significantly reduce the torque at the wheels.
>>
>>Turns out it's the complete opposite. Which also explains why it feels
>>as if the car is "holding the driver back".
>>
>>It starts in gear 1, and doesn't change up until 2,200 rpm (~12mph).
>
>Which mode is that?

See above: when in Grass-gravel-snow terrain control (which is what I
engage when the road might be icy). NB some people confuse these
settings with the separate "Hill descent control".

SAND: It's important to maintain momentum on soft surfaces, so the
system heightens engine and gearbox response, and locks the centre
differential.

ROCK CRAWL: On harsh terrain, maximum control is needed, so Terrain
Response softens the accelerator response.

GRASS-GRAVEL-SNOW: Electronic Traction Control intervenes early [it's
always on anyway in normal mode -ed] to prevent tyre slip, and the
accelerator response is softened to help avoid loss of traction.

MUD-RUTS: The traction control system is optimised to allow controlled
tyre slip, which provides the best traction in slippery conditions.

>>Normally it would change up [all of this in normal driving] at 1800rpm.
>>
>>>>>>>> I'll try that out tomorrow. It's a bit reluctant to say what gear it's
>>>>>>>> in and starting off in 3rd at 1,000 rpm doesn't sound a very likely
>>>>>>>> combination.
>>
>>3rd gear is 1,000 rpm @15mph
>>
>>>>>>> It may normally start in 2nd in D,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I very much doubt it. But will try this tomorrow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and 1st only in S, so the Ice mode would move up a gear.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What sort of ground-speed would you expect from 1,000 rpm in third?
>>>>>
>>>>> Why would it be so high? Won't it idle much lower?
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure that a standing start in 3rd while idling is something
>>>> which makes any sense at all.
>>>>
>>>>> But I don't know the ratios in your car.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps you could do an experiment to find out: start in S mode, and try
>>>>> and detect when it changes into third. You should be able to estimate the
>>>>> ratio.
>>
>>See above: 15mph per 1,000 rpm; which means if it allowed you, that'd be
>>"only" 4,000 rpm at 60mph.
>>
>>I'm afraid I can't log gear changes while doing standing quarter-miles,
>>because there's too much to look at in addition to the road ahead. Not
>>least because it doesn't tell you what gear you are in unless in "S"
>>*after* you have manually changed gear. But a quick manual flip up/down
>>will reveal that.
>>
>>>> I can barely detect it changing gear. My only resource here is seeing if
>>>> the dashboard will display the gear it's in, which it might only do when
>>>> in manual-change mode. But that would at least give the rpm/speed in 3rd
>>>> gear.
>>>
>>>Couldn't you use the tachometer to detect the gear changes?
>>
>>That doesn't tell me which gears it's changing between.
>
>Not directly, but you can't count the changes.

If you mean "can't you..." not really, because I'm looking at the road
not the tacho.
--
Roland Perry

On 17/02/2022 02:05, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 13:02:20 +0000, ColinR
> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 14/02/2022 11:36, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 16:42:25 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 15:24:02 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> How do you get around the health and safety at work regulations?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Change them back again.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And how achievable do you think that actually is?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We're talking about over the top safety rules, not immutable laws of
>>>>> physics.
>>>>>> Changing them would be no problem if there was a will.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm talking about the same thing. In the real world, right now, with
>>>>> current politicians, and current public attitudes, how likely do you think
>>>>> it will be to get rid of the legislation which prevents the installation of
>>>>> new, exposed, high-voltage live conductors at ankle height, around the
>>>>> workplace?
>>>>
>>>> Why do you keep calling it a workplace? An office its a workplace, a railway
>>>> is a site, different rules apply. And frankly I doubt anyone would care about
>>>> from the RMT who no doubt would call a strike and be ignored.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Do people not work there? So it's a place of work, a workplace.
>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps we should just go back to horses pulling trains at 5mph, don't want
>>>>> any
>>>>>> of that dangerous electricity or flammable diesel do we!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Electricity and liquid fuels are perfectly safe if handled properly, eg
>>>>> putting the conductors out of reach, or covering the most easily touched
>>>>> parts with insulation. Which, oddly enough, is what we're permitted to do.
>>>>
>>>> 3rd rail is perfectly safe if you don't do something stupid like touching it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> You could say the same about unfenced drops, but oddly enough they're not
>>> permitted either.
>>>
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-60140774>
>>>
>>>
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>
>> The confusing thing is that no new 3rd rail electrrification is allowed
>> as it is unsafe, but all existing 3rd rail electrification is safe as it
>> is not forbidden. If safety ruled then all the SE of England (and
>> Merseyside etc) would have all rail services shut down until either
>> replaced by diseasel or OHL. Safety seems not to matter when finances
>> trump safety.
>>
>> Either 3rd rail is safe so why not extend. Or it is unsafe so should ALL
>> be taken out of use. The current hybrid solution is ridiculous.
>>
> 100% safety is not required and in practice is not achievable; things
> have to be as safe as reasonably practicable. Safety in many cases is
> not provided by making the hazard source safer but by keeping
> potential victims away from it which can vary from e.g. simply
> covering it adequately or totally excluding potential victims from the
> general area.

Agree "reasonably practicable". However "reasonably financially
justified" seems to be the argument for grandfather rights.

Your post does not cover the conflict between "no new" but "OK existing".

--
Colin

On 16/02/2022 14:17, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <aurp0h9jjfks9al53ao5j4rm0b0mjdbqco@4ax.com>, at 12:37:51 on
> Wed, 16 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>> Britishvolt, which is also planning a "gigafactory" in Northumberland
>> to make electric car batteries, has set out plans to recycle more than
>> 10,000 tonnes of battery packs a year.
>>
>> It aims to power the new centre, in Northfleet, with wind and solar
>> energy.
>
> Not exclusively, though, unless they install a very big set of their own
> batteries. Sometimes we have a whole week with virtually no wind/sun,
> and this time of year just no-wind would mean operating for only perhaps
> five hours a day.

Northfleet is near the coast - use reliable tidal power instead.

--
Colin

On 14/02/2022 11:36, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 16:42:25 -0000 (UTC)
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 15:24:02 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> How do you get around the health and safety at work regulations?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Change them back again.
>>>>>
>>>>> And how achievable do you think that actually is?
>>>>
>>>> We're talking about over the top safety rules, not immutable laws of
>>> physics.
>>>> Changing them would be no problem if there was a will.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm talking about the same thing. In the real world, right now, with
>>> current politicians, and current public attitudes, how likely do you think
>>> it will be to get rid of the legislation which prevents the installation of
>>> new, exposed, high-voltage live conductors at ankle height, around the
>>> workplace?
>>
>> Why do you keep calling it a workplace? An office its a workplace, a railway
>> is a site, different rules apply. And frankly I doubt anyone would care about
>> from the RMT who no doubt would call a strike and be ignored.
>>
>
> Do people not work there? So it's a place of work, a workplace.
>
>>>> Perhaps we should just go back to horses pulling trains at 5mph, don't want
>>> any
>>>> of that dangerous electricity or flammable diesel do we!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Electricity and liquid fuels are perfectly safe if handled properly, eg
>>> putting the conductors out of reach, or covering the most easily touched
>>> parts with insulation. Which, oddly enough, is what we're permitted to do.
>>
>> 3rd rail is perfectly safe if you don't do something stupid like touching it.
>>
>>
>
> You could say the same about unfenced drops, but oddly enough they're not
> permitted either.
>

They are permitted. However, there should be fencing or a suitable
alternative. This could be a safety harness and appropriate lifeline or,
in the case of ports, self-inflating lifejackets.

--
Colin

On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 14:06:25 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <mc6v0hhn3cdjriduplcbm4i9dn7rrsaa40@4ax.com>, at 13:06:21 on
>Fri, 18 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 11:31:17 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>In message <sujuvu$mkk$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:48:30 on Wed, 16 Feb
>>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>I have a reasonably powered 4x4 but have never been able to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>the wheels.
>>>...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some of that might be the transmission deliberately stopping
>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing so, but then I wouldn't expect to spin the wheels,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> than from rest, on the majority of cars I've had.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You would hear it if the DSC was cutting the power.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The only time I've heard/felt anything was once on a bend covered in
>>>>>>>>>>> ice, when the power reduced very slightly all by itself.
>>>
>>> From the vehicle manual: "helps to keep the vehicle under control by
>>>manipulating the engine output and applying the brakes at individual
>>>wheels."
>>>
>>>That's all four wheels. And why the transmission is so complicated and
>>>expensive.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And that was when I was in the extra "icy road" mode.
> ***************************************
>
>>>>>>>>>>>It doesn't so much cut the power, as not let you apply it in
>>>>>>>>>>>the first place, due to the fly-by wire.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It probably starts in a higher gear (eg, third) in that mode.
>>>>>>>>>>That would significantly reduce the torque at the wheels.
>>>
>>>Turns out it's the complete opposite. Which also explains why it feels
>>>as if the car is "holding the driver back".
>>>
>>>It starts in gear 1, and doesn't change up until 2,200 rpm (~12mph).
>>
>>Which mode is that?
>
>See above: when in Grass-gravel-snow terrain control (which is what I
>engage when the road might be icy). NB some people confuse these
>settings with the separate "Hill descent control".
>
>SAND: It's important to maintain momentum on soft surfaces, so the
>system heightens engine and gearbox response, and locks the centre
>differential.
>
>ROCK CRAWL: On harsh terrain, maximum control is needed, so Terrain
>Response softens the accelerator response.
>
>GRASS-GRAVEL-SNOW: Electronic Traction Control intervenes early [it's
>always on anyway in normal mode -ed] to prevent tyre slip, and the
>accelerator response is softened to help avoid loss of traction.
>
>MUD-RUTS: The traction control system is optimised to allow controlled
>tyre slip, which provides the best traction in slippery conditions.
>
>>>Normally it would change up [all of this in normal driving] at 1800rpm.
>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'll try that out tomorrow. It's a bit reluctant to say what gear it's
>>>>>>>>> in and starting off in 3rd at 1,000 rpm doesn't sound a very likely
>>>>>>>>> combination.
>>>
>>>3rd gear is 1,000 rpm @15mph
>>>
>>>>>>>> It may normally start in 2nd in D,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. But will try this tomorrow.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and 1st only in S, so the Ice mode would move up a gear.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What sort of ground-speed would you expect from 1,000 rpm in third?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why would it be so high? Won't it idle much lower?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure that a standing start in 3rd while idling is something
>>>>> which makes any sense at all.
>>>>>
>>>>>> But I don't know the ratios in your car.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps you could do an experiment to find out: start in S mode, and try
>>>>>> and detect when it changes into third. You should be able to estimate the
>>>>>> ratio.
>>>
>>>See above: 15mph per 1,000 rpm; which means if it allowed you, that'd be
>>>"only" 4,000 rpm at 60mph.
>>>
>>>I'm afraid I can't log gear changes while doing standing quarter-miles,
>>>because there's too much to look at in addition to the road ahead. Not
>>>least because it doesn't tell you what gear you are in unless in "S"
>>>*after* you have manually changed gear. But a quick manual flip up/down
>>>will reveal that.
>>>
>>>>> I can barely detect it changing gear. My only resource here is seeing if
>>>>> the dashboard will display the gear it's in, which it might only do when
>>>>> in manual-change mode. But that would at least give the rpm/speed in 3rd
>>>>> gear.
>>>>
>>>>Couldn't you use the tachometer to detect the gear changes?
>>>
>>>That doesn't tell me which gears it's changing between.
>>
>>Not directly, but you can't count the changes.
>
>If you mean "can't you..." not really, because I'm looking at the road
>not the tacho.

Yes, it would be much safer to have an assistant to note the RPM. Or, I suppose you could video the instrument panel.

On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 16:31:39 +0000, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:

>On 16/02/2022 13:52, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 16/02/2022 12:37, Recliner wrote:
>>> One of Britain's leading tech start-ups is to build a recycling plant
>>> for electric car batteries in Kent after joining
>>> forces with global mining giant Glencore.
>>>
>>> Britishvolt, which is also planning a "gigafactory" in Northumberland
>>> to make electric car batteries, has  set out plans
>>> to recycle more than 10,000 tonnes of battery packs a year.
>>>
>>> It aims to power the new centre, in Northfleet, with wind and solar
>>> energy.
>>>
>>> The Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, has previously said that
>>> Britishvolt is a part of "the UK’s place at the helm of the
>>> global green industrial revolution".
>>
>> That could be the kiss of death for the enterprise!
>>
>That was my feeling.

It's got to the point now that I just automatically assume he's lying, whatever he says and whatever the occasion. I
also question his motives for any actions he takes, as I suspect that all his current actions are aimed at persuading
his MPs not to send in their letters to Sir Graham.

On 18/02/2022 14:52, Recliner wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 14:06:25 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <mc6v0hhn3cdjriduplcbm4i9dn7rrsaa40@4ax.com>, at 13:06:21 on
>> Fri, 18 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 11:31:17 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <sujuvu$mkk$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:48:30 on Wed, 16 Feb
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have a reasonably powered 4x4 but have never been able to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the wheels.
>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some of that might be the transmission deliberately stopping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing so, but then I wouldn't expect to spin the wheels,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than from rest, on the majority of cars I've had.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You would hear it if the DSC was cutting the power.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The only time I've heard/felt anything was once on a bend covered in
>>>>>>>>>>>> ice, when the power reduced very slightly all by itself.
>>>>
>>>> From the vehicle manual: "helps to keep the vehicle under control by
>>>> manipulating the engine output and applying the brakes at individual
>>>> wheels."
>>>>
>>>> That's all four wheels. And why the transmission is so complicated and
>>>> expensive.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And that was when I was in the extra "icy road" mode.
>> ***************************************
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It doesn't so much cut the power, as not let you apply it in
>>>>>>>>>>>> the first place, due to the fly-by wire.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It probably starts in a higher gear (eg, third) in that mode.
>>>>>>>>>>> That would significantly reduce the torque at the wheels.
>>>>
>>>> Turns out it's the complete opposite. Which also explains why it feels
>>>> as if the car is "holding the driver back".
>>>>
>>>> It starts in gear 1, and doesn't change up until 2,200 rpm (~12mph).
>>>
>>> Which mode is that?
>>
>> See above: when in Grass-gravel-snow terrain control (which is what I
>> engage when the road might be icy). NB some people confuse these
>> settings with the separate "Hill descent control".
>>
>> SAND: It's important to maintain momentum on soft surfaces, so the
>> system heightens engine and gearbox response, and locks the centre
>> differential.
>>
>> ROCK CRAWL: On harsh terrain, maximum control is needed, so Terrain
>> Response softens the accelerator response.
>>
>> GRASS-GRAVEL-SNOW: Electronic Traction Control intervenes early [it's
>> always on anyway in normal mode -ed] to prevent tyre slip, and the
>> accelerator response is softened to help avoid loss of traction.
>>
>> MUD-RUTS: The traction control system is optimised to allow controlled
>> tyre slip, which provides the best traction in slippery conditions.
>>
>>>> Normally it would change up [all of this in normal driving] at 1800rpm.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'll try that out tomorrow. It's a bit reluctant to say what gear it's
>>>>>>>>>> in and starting off in 3rd at 1,000 rpm doesn't sound a very likely
>>>>>>>>>> combination.
>>>>
>>>> 3rd gear is 1,000 rpm @15mph
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It may normally start in 2nd in D,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. But will try this tomorrow.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and 1st only in S, so the Ice mode would move up a gear.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What sort of ground-speed would you expect from 1,000 rpm in third?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why would it be so high? Won't it idle much lower?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure that a standing start in 3rd while idling is something
>>>>>> which makes any sense at all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I don't know the ratios in your car.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps you could do an experiment to find out: start in S mode, and try
>>>>>>> and detect when it changes into third. You should be able to estimate the
>>>>>>> ratio.
>>>>
>>>> See above: 15mph per 1,000 rpm; which means if it allowed you, that'd be
>>>> "only" 4,000 rpm at 60mph.
>>>>
>>>> I'm afraid I can't log gear changes while doing standing quarter-miles,
>>>> because there's too much to look at in addition to the road ahead. Not
>>>> least because it doesn't tell you what gear you are in unless in "S"
>>>> *after* you have manually changed gear. But a quick manual flip up/down
>>>> will reveal that.
>>>>
>>>>>> I can barely detect it changing gear. My only resource here is seeing if
>>>>>> the dashboard will display the gear it's in, which it might only do when
>>>>>> in manual-change mode. But that would at least give the rpm/speed in 3rd
>>>>>> gear.
>>>>>
>>>>> Couldn't you use the tachometer to detect the gear changes?
>>>>
>>>> That doesn't tell me which gears it's changing between.
>>>
>>> Not directly, but you can't count the changes.
>>
>> If you mean "can't you..." not really, because I'm looking at the road
>> not the tacho.
>
> Yes, it would be much safer to have an assistant to note the RPM. Or, I suppose you could video the instrument panel.

Even more complex with a PHEV when there are two tachos (1 for the
electric and 1 for the petrol) and each change gear at different times!
Makes for a smooth drive though...

--
Colin

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 16/02/2022 14:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <aurp0h9jjfks9al53ao5j4rm0b0mjdbqco@4ax.com>, at 12:37:51 on
>> Wed, 16 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> Britishvolt, which is also planning a "gigafactory" in Northumberland
>>> to make electric car batteries, has set out plans to recycle more than
>>> 10,000 tonnes of battery packs a year.
>>>
>>> It aims to power the new centre, in Northfleet, with wind and solar
>>> energy.
>>
>> Not exclusively, though, unless they install a very big set of their own
>> batteries. Sometimes we have a whole week with virtually no wind/sun,
>> and this time of year just no-wind would mean operating for only perhaps
>> five hours a day.
>
> Northfleet is near the coast - use reliable tidal power instead.
>

The tides may be reliable but the means of extracting that power aren’t
reliable as far as I know. Barrages have resulted in silting up and I don’t
know of any large scale under sea deployments.

On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 14:51:59 +0000
ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>On 14/02/2022 11:36, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> You could say the same about unfenced drops, but oddly enough they're not
>> permitted either.
>>
>
>They are permitted. However, there should be fencing or a suitable
>alternative. This could be a safety harness and appropriate lifeline or,
>in the case of ports, self-inflating lifejackets.

Never noticed any of them at hand at the many small ports we've been to
on holiday. Rarely do you even see a life ring.

In message <suo9gt$9ko$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:12:47 on Fri, 18 Feb
2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>On 18/02/2022 12:39, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <suo3h4$ahj$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:30:28 on Fri, 18 Feb
>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 18/02/2022 11:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <sunqbg$fvd$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:53:52 on Fri, 18 Feb
>>>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 18/02/2022 09:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sum4an$4gu$3@dont-email.me>, at 18:31:51 on Thu, 17
>>>>>>Feb 2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "any driver will know that if they push their right foot all
>>>>>>>>>>>>> way down at low speed, they will spin the wheels on their car"
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>> My 100kW 1.5 tonne electric will spin on take off from
>>>>>>>>>standing far too
>>>>>>>>> easily; that's a different speed/torque curve and no gears.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Don’t electric cars have traction control?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It claims "electronic stability programme (ESP) with anti-slip
>>>>>>>regulation
>>>>>>> (ASR) and understeer control (UCL)".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And I suppose it does, because the the wheels don't go on
>>>>>>>slipping and
>>>>>>> the car keeps going the right way, even when cornering, but they
>>>>>>> certainly slip a bit if you pull away sharpish, you can feel it.
>>>>
>>>>>>  There's a difference between pulling away from stationary, and
>>>>>>being  at  a low speed. (I'm not sure anyone gave a figure for
>>>>>>that, but  let's fly  a kite at 15mph)
>>>>>
>>>>> Good luck trying to fly a kite today!
>>
>>>>  Bait, taken :)
>>>>  But the winds so far are nothing like as fierce as predicted.
>>>
>>> 50 knots plus at Heathrow at midday. Give it time.

>> Yes, but it's later than predicted (which is entirely consistent
>>with blowing slower than predicted).
>
>Just been for a walk this afternoon, lovely sunny calm day up here!!

It's been a bit off-and-on here. Very blowy for two disjoint one-hour
sessions early afternoon. Nothing this morning.
--
Roland Perry

On 18/02/2022 14:54, Recliner wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 16:31:39 +0000, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>
>> On 16/02/2022 13:52, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 16/02/2022 12:37, Recliner wrote:
>>>> One of Britain's leading tech start-ups is to build a recycling plant
>>>> for electric car batteries in Kent after joining
>>>> forces with global mining giant Glencore.
>>>>
>>>> Britishvolt, which is also planning a "gigafactory" in Northumberland
>>>> to make electric car batteries, has  set out plans
>>>> to recycle more than 10,000 tonnes of battery packs a year.
>>>>
>>>> It aims to power the new centre, in Northfleet, with wind and solar
>>>> energy.
>>>>
>>>> The Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, has previously said that
>>>> Britishvolt is a part of "the UK’s place at the helm of the
>>>> global green industrial revolution".
>>>
>>> That could be the kiss of death for the enterprise!
>>>
>> That was my feeling.
>
> It's got to the point now that I just automatically assume he's lying, whatever he says and whatever the occasion. I
> also question his motives for any actions he takes, as I suspect that all his current actions are aimed at persuading
> his MPs not to send in their letters to Sir Graham.

I totally agree with that statement.