In message <sv2i2j$obh$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:40:03 on Tue, 22 Feb
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>>>The Channel Islands and Seven Estuary would be ideal areas for
>>> tidal power stations.
>>
>> As you obviously know there have been a number of proposals for one in
>> Cardiff Bay.
>
>And now more or less abandoned, mainly because of the enormous subsidy
>they'd require. The environmentalists don't much like the idea, either.

Environmentalists[*] being one of the main opponents of renewable
energy, of course.

[*] wrong sort of
--
Roland Perry

On 22/02/2022 12:31, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sv2i2j$obh$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:40:03 on Tue, 22 Feb
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>> The Channel Islands and Seven Estuary would be ideal areas for
>>>> tidal power stations.
>>>
>>> As you obviously know there have been a number of proposals for one in
>>> Cardiff Bay.
>>
>> And now more or less abandoned, mainly because of the enormous subsidy
>> they'd require. The environmentalists don't much like the idea, either.
>
> Environmentalists[*] being one of the main opponents of renewable
> energy, of course.
>
> [*] wrong sort of

Is that the snow?? ;-)

--
Colin

On 22/02/2022 10:24, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 22/02/2022 10:16, ColinR wrote:
>> On 22/02/2022 10:02, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 21/02/2022 10:31, Bob wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-02-18 17:58:36 +0000, Sam Wilson said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 16/02/2022 14:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <aurp0h9jjfks9al53ao5j4rm0b0mjdbqco@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>> 12:37:51 on
>>>>>>>> Wed, 16 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Britishvolt, which is also planning a "gigafactory" in
>>>>>>>>> Northumberland
>>>>>>>>> to make electric car batteries, has set out plans to recycle
>>>>>>>>> more than
>>>>>>>>> 10,000 tonnes of battery packs a year.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It aims to power the new centre, in Northfleet, with wind and
>>>>>>>>> solar
>>>>>>>>> energy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not exclusively, though, unless they install a very big set of
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>> batteries. Sometimes we have a whole week with virtually no
>>>>>>>> wind/sun,
>>>>>>>> and this time of year just no-wind would mean operating for only
>>>>>>>> perhaps
>>>>>>>> five hours a day.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Northfleet is near the coast - use reliable tidal power instead.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> … which drops to zero (locally) approximately 4 times a day.
>>>>>
>>>>> A tidal barrage with two separate storage pounds can manage water
>>>>> levels
>>>>> in such a way that it should always be able to generate some power.
>>>>> With the demise of actual shipping uses for the docks in East London,
>>>>> I'm surprised nobody has suggested using something like the Royal
>>>>> Docks
>>>>> as a tidal energy storage facility.  The Royal Docks have plenty of
>>>>> volume, and the tidal range of the Thames in that reach ought to allow
>>>>> for a reasonable amount of energy to be produced.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tides rotate around the country and with a number of tidal schemes only
>>>> one or two at a time would not be producing power.
>>>
>>> Yes, but that doesn’t match with the idea that Northfleet should use
>>> tidal
>>> power because it’s near the coast.  Either it needs local storage to
>>> match
>>> supply and demand, or it needs long distance transmission to use
>>> non-local
>>> supply, in which case being near the coast is irrelevant.
>>>
>>
>> Agree, but a newbuild site could easily incorporate a pond type of
>> storage to even out generation across the day.
>>
>
> Modern day tide mill!
>

Just like Eling!

--
Colin

On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 12:31:47 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <sv2i2j$obh$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:40:03 on Tue, 22 Feb
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>>The Channel Islands and Seven Estuary would be ideal areas for
>>>> tidal power stations.
>>>
>>> As you obviously know there have been a number of proposals for one in
>>> Cardiff Bay.
>>
>>And now more or less abandoned, mainly because of the enormous subsidy
>>they'd require. The environmentalists don't much like the idea, either.
>
>Environmentalists[*] being one of the main opponents of renewable
>energy, of course.
>
>[*] wrong sort of

Yup, they oppose most forms of green power.

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 22/02/2022 10:02, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 21/02/2022 10:31, Bob wrote:
>>>> On 2022-02-18 17:58:36 +0000, Sam Wilson said:
>>>>
>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 16/02/2022 14:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <aurp0h9jjfks9al53ao5j4rm0b0mjdbqco@4ax.com>, at 12:37:51 on
>>>>>>> Wed, 16 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Britishvolt, which is also planning a "gigafactory" in Northumberland
>>>>>>>> to make electric car batteries, has set out plans to recycle more than
>>>>>>>> 10,000 tonnes of battery packs a year.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It aims to power the new centre, in Northfleet, with wind and solar
>>>>>>>> energy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not exclusively, though, unless they install a very big set of their
>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>> batteries. Sometimes we have a whole week with virtually no wind/sun,
>>>>>>> and this time of year just no-wind would mean operating for only
>>>>>>> perhaps
>>>>>>> five hours a day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Northfleet is near the coast - use reliable tidal power instead.
>>>>>
>>>>> … which drops to zero (locally) approximately 4 times a day.
>>>>
>>>> A tidal barrage with two separate storage pounds can manage water levels
>>>> in such a way that it should always be able to generate some power.
>>>> With the demise of actual shipping uses for the docks in East London,
>>>> I'm surprised nobody has suggested using something like the Royal Docks
>>>> as a tidal energy storage facility.  The Royal Docks have plenty of
>>>> volume, and the tidal range of the Thames in that reach ought to allow
>>>> for a reasonable amount of energy to be produced.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Tides rotate around the country and with a number of tidal schemes only
>>> one or two at a time would not be producing power.
>>
>> Yes, but that doesn’t match with the idea that Northfleet should use tidal
>> power because it’s near the coast. Either it needs local storage to match
>> supply and demand, or it needs long distance transmission to use non-local
>> supply, in which case being near the coast is irrelevant.
>>
>
> Agree, but a newbuild site could easily incorporate a pond type of
> storage to even out generation across the day.

Ummm, possible but with environmental implications. We’ll have to wait and
see what happens.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 13:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 22/02/2022 10:02, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 21/02/2022 10:31, Bob wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-02-18 17:58:36 +0000, Sam Wilson said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 16/02/2022 14:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <aurp0h9jjfks9al53ao5j4rm0b0mjdbqco@4ax.com>, at 12:37:51 on
>>>>>>>> Wed, 16 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Britishvolt, which is also planning a "gigafactory" in Northumberland
>>>>>>>>> to make electric car batteries, has set out plans to recycle more than
>>>>>>>>> 10,000 tonnes of battery packs a year.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It aims to power the new centre, in Northfleet, with wind and solar
>>>>>>>>> energy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not exclusively, though, unless they install a very big set of their
>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>> batteries. Sometimes we have a whole week with virtually no wind/sun,
>>>>>>>> and this time of year just no-wind would mean operating for only
>>>>>>>> perhaps
>>>>>>>> five hours a day.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Northfleet is near the coast - use reliable tidal power instead.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> … which drops to zero (locally) approximately 4 times a day.
>>>>>
>>>>> A tidal barrage with two separate storage pounds can manage water levels
>>>>> in such a way that it should always be able to generate some power.
>>>>> With the demise of actual shipping uses for the docks in East London,
>>>>> I'm surprised nobody has suggested using something like the Royal Docks
>>>>> as a tidal energy storage facility.  The Royal Docks have plenty of
>>>>> volume, and the tidal range of the Thames in that reach ought to allow
>>>>> for a reasonable amount of energy to be produced.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tides rotate around the country and with a number of tidal schemes only
>>>> one or two at a time would not be producing power.
>>>
>>> Yes, but that doesn’t match with the idea that Northfleet should use tidal
>>> power because it’s near the coast. Either it needs local storage to match
>>> supply and demand, or it needs long distance transmission to use non-local
>>> supply, in which case being near the coast is irrelevant.
>>>
>>
>> Agree, but a newbuild site could easily incorporate a pond type of
>> storage to even out generation across the day.
>
>Ummm, possible but with environmental implications. We’ll have to wait and
>see what happens.

Yes, the pond would have to either be high up a mountain, or have a huge volume in an enormous reservoir. That's one of
the problems with the Severn barrage proposals.

In message <sv2lb1$f1u$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:35:45 on Tue, 22 Feb
2022, Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:

>>> The Channel Islands and Seven Estuary would be ideal areas for tidal
>>>power stations.
>> Apart from the length of cable required from the Channel Islands.
>
>A 140-mile cable to Exeter is already planned.
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FAB_Link>

Yes, I know.

Although Alderney to Exeter is 140*km* (90 miles).

Assuming they don't have a massive battery-bank on the islands as well,
to smooth the flow, that's between one and two coal power station's
worth. Every little helps, but existing interconnects are three or fours
times as chunky.

>Shorter crossings are available.

Weymouth is closer (100km) but maybe they don't have a suitable grid
connection to plumb it into. I'm sure the people designing theses things
take that into account.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sv2h9p$iv8$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:26:49 on Tue, 22 Feb
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sv2fqc$80o$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:01:32 on Tue, 22 Feb
>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>
>>>> The Channel Islands and Seven Estuary would be ideal areas for tidal
>>>> power stations.
>>>
>>> Apart from the length of cable required from the Channel Islands.
>>>
>>> Although iirc one of the beefs they have is staring across a relatively
>>> short stretch of water at a French nuclear station without being able to
>>> benefit from its output.
>>
>> But they do:
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Islands_Electricity_Grid>
>
> Alderney's not connected yet,

Alderney power supply is interesting from a historical point of view, it
was the last outpost of a family company called Christy Brothers who
founded and built and operated many small generating stations in South West
England under various names in the early pioneering days of electricity
before the grid but by WW2 many small ones had closed as connections over
areas were made and companies like the West Devon Electricity supply
company formed.
In the UK their power companies got nationalised after WW2 but they
invested in Alderneys generators and supply lines which they ran till 1979
when the family finally left the industry .

Ironically the Alderney state had started to electrify in 1938 but little
progress was made before the population was evacuated before the German
Invasion. Upon returning in 1945 the population found the military
occupiers of their houses didn’t like gas and oil lamps and had wired the
Island and connected most houses up, it was this network that Christy
Brothers took over.

Now Alderney hopes to get tidal power from a French project to replace its
Diesel sets.

https://www.itv.com/news/channel/2019-09-06/alderney-to-make-shift-towards-tidal-power>

and the Jersey/Guernsey ones are quite
> recent, and not big enough to feed anything useful in the opposite
> direction.

The first one now decommissioned and replaced was laid 37 years ago,
that’s hardly recent.

<https://www.jec.co.uk/the-energy-blog/first-french-power-cable-rises-from-seabed-after-31-years/>

Why would they want to over specify cables until the capacity is needed ?
Should in the event of a tidal station being built amongst the Channel
Islands then a link capable of exporting the energy would be part of any
such project.

Ignoring the machinations of French Politicians who recently were
suggesting they would cut the power links to the CI unless they got their
way over the fishing dispute in those waters ,the most practical way to get
power from the CI to the UK would be to send it to France via the shortish
link
and then onto the UK via the existing links.

OTOH if the French were to carry out their threat to turn of the power then
the CI and UK governments might decide the cost of a long link to the UK is
justified.

IFA 2 which came on stream about a year ago linking France with the UK
comes ashore on the Solent* from Normandy rather than a crossing the
channel where it is narrow and is about 137 miles long. A link from the CI
would be a similar length, if the French have got really stroppy** move the
end of IFA2 .

* Lands at Lee on the Solent with the DC -AC converter station built at
the former navy airfield, then a link back around the East side of
Southampton Water carrying AC which connects to the grid using links that
would have become redundant following the closure of Fawley Power station.

** With EDF being a major player in the UK there is probably a point where
politics give way to profit so I doubt any action will really happen.

GH

In message <j7lhsoFartrU1@mid.individual.net>, at 01:44:56 on Wed, 23
Feb 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:

>>and the Jersey/Guernsey ones are quite
>> recent, and not big enough to feed anything useful in the opposite
>> direction.
>
>The first one now decommissioned and replaced was laid 37 years ago,
>that’s hardly recent.

Let's try that again "the Jersey Guernsey ones which would be any use at
all in feeding tidal power off the islands, are quite recent".

The decommissioned one was 55MW, so a tenth of a coal-fired power
station, or just 20 wind turbines.

But even if we put all the operational others together, it's still only
290MW.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <j7lhsoFartrU1@mid.individual.net>, at 01:44:56 on Wed, 23
> Feb 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>> and the Jersey/Guernsey ones are quite
>>> recent, and not big enough to feed anything useful in the opposite
>>> direction.
>>
>> The first one now decommissioned and replaced was laid 37 years ago,
>> that’s hardly recent.
>
> Let's try that again "the Jersey Guernsey ones which would be any use at
> all in feeding tidal power off the islands, are quite recent".
>
> The decommissioned one was 55MW, so a tenth of a coal-fired power
> station, or just 20 wind turbines.
>
> But even if we put all the operational others together, it's still only
> 290MW.

Which is enough to meet their full needs. The old La Collette Power Station
is only 200MW, and it still serves as the backup if the link to the French
grid fails.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

> Weymouth is closer (100km) but maybe they don't have a suitable grid
> connection to plumb it into. I'm sure the people designing theses things
> take that into account.

They do , one of the 400Kv lines to the Southwest runs behind Weymouth and
there is a large substation on it at Chickerell on the fringe of the town
which also has a small gas turbine station on the site.

<https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Chickerell,+Weymouth/@50.6239873,-2.4882834,391m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x4872f6726459b1f1:0xb0e19c0b8cd2214!8m2!3d50.624634!4d-2.503566>
The same line later reaches the next connection substation at Axminster and
then the next one is Exeter.
Not too far away from Weymouth NG are spending mega money on putting a
length of the cables underground to remove them from the skyline in an
AONB.<
<https://dorset.nationalgrid.co.uk/project/>

GH

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Weymouth is closer (100km) but maybe they don't have a suitable grid
>> connection to plumb it into. I'm sure the people designing theses things
>> take that into account.
>
> They do , one of the 400Kv lines to the Southwest runs .

Sod it , 400kV of course.

GH

In message <sv510h$om4$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:07:13 on Wed, 23 Feb
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <j7lhsoFartrU1@mid.individual.net>, at 01:44:56 on Wed, 23
>> Feb 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>> and the Jersey/Guernsey ones are quite recent, and not big enough
>>>>to feed anything useful in the opposite direction.
>>>
>>> The first one now decommissioned and replaced was laid 37 years ago,
>>> that’s hardly recent.
>>
>> Let's try that again "the Jersey Guernsey ones which would be any use at
>> all in feeding tidal power off the islands, are quite recent".
>>
>> The decommissioned one was 55MW, so a tenth of a coal-fired power
>> station, or just 20 wind turbines.
>>
>> But even if we put all the operational others together, it's still only
>> 290MW.
>
>Which is enough to meet their full needs.

But not the "need" to service a massive tidal power installation
exporting power off the islands.

>The old La Collette Power Station is only 200MW, and it still serves as
>the backup if the link to the French grid fails.

It's not the island's domestic needs which are the issue here.
--
Roland Perry

On 22/02/2022 10:24, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 22/02/2022 10:16, ColinR wrote:
>> On 22/02/2022 10:02, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 21/02/2022 10:31, Bob wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-02-18 17:58:36 +0000, Sam Wilson said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 16/02/2022 14:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <aurp0h9jjfks9al53ao5j4rm0b0mjdbqco@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>> 12:37:51 on
>>>>>>>> Wed, 16 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Britishvolt, which is also planning a "gigafactory" in
>>>>>>>>> Northumberland
>>>>>>>>> to make electric car batteries, has set out plans to recycle
>>>>>>>>> more than
>>>>>>>>> 10,000 tonnes of battery packs a year.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It aims to power the new centre, in Northfleet, with wind and
>>>>>>>>> solar
>>>>>>>>> energy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not exclusively, though, unless they install a very big set of
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>> batteries. Sometimes we have a whole week with virtually no
>>>>>>>> wind/sun,
>>>>>>>> and this time of year just no-wind would mean operating for only
>>>>>>>> perhaps
>>>>>>>> five hours a day.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Northfleet is near the coast - use reliable tidal power instead.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> … which drops to zero (locally) approximately 4 times a day.
>>>>>
>>>>> A tidal barrage with two separate storage pounds can manage water
>>>>> levels
>>>>> in such a way that it should always be able to generate some power.
>>>>> With the demise of actual shipping uses for the docks in East London,
>>>>> I'm surprised nobody has suggested using something like the Royal
>>>>> Docks
>>>>> as a tidal energy storage facility.  The Royal Docks have plenty of
>>>>> volume, and the tidal range of the Thames in that reach ought to allow
>>>>> for a reasonable amount of energy to be produced.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tides rotate around the country and with a number of tidal schemes only
>>>> one or two at a time would not be producing power.
>>>
>>> Yes, but that doesn’t match with the idea that Northfleet should use
>>> tidal
>>> power because it’s near the coast.  Either it needs local storage to
>>> match
>>> supply and demand, or it needs long distance transmission to use
>>> non-local
>>> supply, in which case being near the coast is irrelevant.
>>>
>>
>> Agree, but a newbuild site could easily incorporate a pond type of
>> storage to even out generation across the day.
>>
>
> Modern day tide mill!
>

Or wave power ? - If anyone can make a design that is both reliable and
affordable.

Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 22/02/2022 10:24, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 22/02/2022 10:16, ColinR wrote:
>>> On 22/02/2022 10:02, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 21/02/2022 10:31, Bob wrote:
>>>>>> On 2022-02-18 17:58:36 +0000, Sam Wilson said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 16/02/2022 14:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <aurp0h9jjfks9al53ao5j4rm0b0mjdbqco@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>> 12:37:51 on
>>>>>>>>> Wed, 16 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Britishvolt, which is also planning a "gigafactory" in
>>>>>>>>>> Northumberland
>>>>>>>>>> to make electric car batteries, has set out plans to recycle
>>>>>>>>>> more than
>>>>>>>>>> 10,000 tonnes of battery packs a year.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It aims to power the new centre, in Northfleet, with wind and
>>>>>>>>>> solar
>>>>>>>>>> energy.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not exclusively, though, unless they install a very big set of
>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>>> batteries. Sometimes we have a whole week with virtually no
>>>>>>>>> wind/sun,
>>>>>>>>> and this time of year just no-wind would mean operating for only
>>>>>>>>> perhaps
>>>>>>>>> five hours a day.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Northfleet is near the coast - use reliable tidal power instead.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> … which drops to zero (locally) approximately 4 times a day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A tidal barrage with two separate storage pounds can manage water
>>>>>> levels
>>>>>> in such a way that it should always be able to generate some power.
>>>>>> With the demise of actual shipping uses for the docks in East London,
>>>>>> I'm surprised nobody has suggested using something like the Royal
>>>>>> Docks
>>>>>> as a tidal energy storage facility.  The Royal Docks have plenty of
>>>>>> volume, and the tidal range of the Thames in that reach ought to allow
>>>>>> for a reasonable amount of energy to be produced.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tides rotate around the country and with a number of tidal schemes only
>>>>> one or two at a time would not be producing power.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but that doesn’t match with the idea that Northfleet should use
>>>> tidal
>>>> power because it’s near the coast.  Either it needs local storage to
>>>> match
>>>> supply and demand, or it needs long distance transmission to use
>>>> non-local
>>>> supply, in which case being near the coast is irrelevant.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Agree, but a newbuild site could easily incorporate a pond type of
>>> storage to even out generation across the day.
>>>
>>
>> Modern day tide mill!
>>
>
> Or wave power ? - If anyone can make a design that is both reliable and
> affordable.
>

I remember how, almost five decades ago, I was excited about how the
revolutionary Salter's duck was going to transform our future energy
supplies:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salter%27s_duck

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 22/02/2022 10:24, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 22/02/2022 10:16, ColinR wrote:
>>>> On 22/02/2022 10:02, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 21/02/2022 10:31, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2022-02-18 17:58:36 +0000, Sam Wilson said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 16/02/2022 14:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <aurp0h9jjfks9al53ao5j4rm0b0mjdbqco@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>> 12:37:51 on
>>>>>>>>>> Wed, 16 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Britishvolt, which is also planning a "gigafactory" in
>>>>>>>>>>> Northumberland
>>>>>>>>>>> to make electric car batteries, has set out plans to recycle
>>>>>>>>>>> more than
>>>>>>>>>>> 10,000 tonnes of battery packs a year.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It aims to power the new centre, in Northfleet, with wind and
>>>>>>>>>>> solar
>>>>>>>>>>> energy.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Not exclusively, though, unless they install a very big set of
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>>>> batteries. Sometimes we have a whole week with virtually no
>>>>>>>>>> wind/sun,
>>>>>>>>>> and this time of year just no-wind would mean operating for only
>>>>>>>>>> perhaps
>>>>>>>>>> five hours a day.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Northfleet is near the coast - use reliable tidal power instead.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> … which drops to zero (locally) approximately 4 times a day.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A tidal barrage with two separate storage pounds can manage water
>>>>>>> levels
>>>>>>> in such a way that it should always be able to generate some power.
>>>>>>> With the demise of actual shipping uses for the docks in East London,
>>>>>>> I'm surprised nobody has suggested using something like the Royal
>>>>>>> Docks
>>>>>>> as a tidal energy storage facility.  The Royal Docks have plenty of
>>>>>>> volume, and the tidal range of the Thames in that reach ought to allow
>>>>>>> for a reasonable amount of energy to be produced.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tides rotate around the country and with a number of tidal schemes only
>>>>>> one or two at a time would not be producing power.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but that doesn’t match with the idea that Northfleet should use
>>>>> tidal
>>>>> power because it’s near the coast.  Either it needs local storage to
>>>>> match
>>>>> supply and demand, or it needs long distance transmission to use
>>>>> non-local
>>>>> supply, in which case being near the coast is irrelevant.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Agree, but a newbuild site could easily incorporate a pond type of
>>>> storage to even out generation across the day.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Modern day tide mill!
>>>
>>
>> Or wave power ? - If anyone can make a design that is both reliable and
>> affordable.
>>
>
> I remember how, almost five decades ago, I was excited about how the
> revolutionary Salter's duck was going to transform our future energy
> supplies:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salter%27s_duck

I knew people who worked on that. My PhD supervisor (ChemEng) and his wife
(CompSci) wrote some of the first software to drive the 2-dimensional wave
makers used in the test tank.

IIUC one of the issues not mentioned in the Wkipedia article is that part
of the unrealistic design brief given to the team was to deliver n MW from
off the outer Hebrides to the vicinity of Birmingham.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 23/02/2022 16:25, Bevan Price wrote:
> On 22/02/2022 10:24, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 22/02/2022 10:16, ColinR wrote:
>>> On 22/02/2022 10:02, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 21/02/2022 10:31, Bob wrote:
>>>>>> On 2022-02-18 17:58:36 +0000, Sam Wilson said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 16/02/2022 14:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <aurp0h9jjfks9al53ao5j4rm0b0mjdbqco@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>> 12:37:51 on
>>>>>>>>> Wed, 16 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Britishvolt, which is also planning a "gigafactory" in
>>>>>>>>>> Northumberland
>>>>>>>>>> to make electric car batteries, has set out plans to recycle
>>>>>>>>>> more than
>>>>>>>>>> 10,000 tonnes of battery packs a year.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It aims to power the new centre, in Northfleet, with wind and
>>>>>>>>>> solar
>>>>>>>>>> energy.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not exclusively, though, unless they install a very big set of
>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>>> batteries. Sometimes we have a whole week with virtually no
>>>>>>>>> wind/sun,
>>>>>>>>> and this time of year just no-wind would mean operating for only
>>>>>>>>> perhaps
>>>>>>>>> five hours a day.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Northfleet is near the coast - use reliable tidal power instead.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> … which drops to zero (locally) approximately 4 times a day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A tidal barrage with two separate storage pounds can manage water
>>>>>> levels
>>>>>> in such a way that it should always be able to generate some power.
>>>>>> With the demise of actual shipping uses for the docks in East London,
>>>>>> I'm surprised nobody has suggested using something like the Royal
>>>>>> Docks
>>>>>> as a tidal energy storage facility.  The Royal Docks have plenty of
>>>>>> volume, and the tidal range of the Thames in that reach ought to
>>>>>> allow
>>>>>> for a reasonable amount of energy to be produced.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tides rotate around the country and with a number of tidal schemes
>>>>> only
>>>>> one or two at a time would not be producing power.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but that doesn’t match with the idea that Northfleet should use
>>>> tidal
>>>> power because it’s near the coast.  Either it needs local storage to
>>>> match
>>>> supply and demand, or it needs long distance transmission to use
>>>> non-local
>>>> supply, in which case being near the coast is irrelevant.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Agree, but a newbuild site could easily incorporate a pond type of
>>> storage to even out generation across the day.
>>>
>>
>> Modern day tide mill!
>>
>
> Or wave power ? - If anyone can make a design that is both reliable and
> affordable.
>

Whatever happened to Salter's ducks?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:

> Or wave power ? - If anyone can make a design that is both reliable and
> affordable.
>
>

£45 million funds from various sources but ultimately taxpayers were
invested in the wave hub
project off the Cornwall Coast, basically it was a preinstalled connection
point that would have allowed power from up to four experimental wave power
projects a route to shore so they would not have to lay their own cable all
the way.

In 11 years no successful project ever came and last year it was sold off
to be used by some experimental floating wind turbines.

<Cornwall Wave Hub to be sold for offshore wind farm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-57156482>

Wave power structures seems to be something that cannot yet be made robust
enough to survive
long enough to viable.

GH

On 23/02/2022 16:25, Bevan Price wrote:
> On 22/02/2022 10:24, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 22/02/2022 10:16, ColinR wrote:
>>> On 22/02/2022 10:02, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 21/02/2022 10:31, Bob wrote:
>>>>>> On 2022-02-18 17:58:36 +0000, Sam Wilson said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 16/02/2022 14:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <aurp0h9jjfks9al53ao5j4rm0b0mjdbqco@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>> 12:37:51 on
>>>>>>>>> Wed, 16 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Britishvolt, which is also planning a "gigafactory" in
>>>>>>>>>> Northumberland
>>>>>>>>>> to make electric car batteries, has set out plans to recycle
>>>>>>>>>> more than
>>>>>>>>>> 10,000 tonnes of battery packs a year.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It aims to power the new centre, in Northfleet, with wind and
>>>>>>>>>> solar
>>>>>>>>>> energy.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not exclusively, though, unless they install a very big set of
>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>>> batteries. Sometimes we have a whole week with virtually no
>>>>>>>>> wind/sun,
>>>>>>>>> and this time of year just no-wind would mean operating for only
>>>>>>>>> perhaps
>>>>>>>>> five hours a day.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Northfleet is near the coast - use reliable tidal power instead.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> … which drops to zero (locally) approximately 4 times a day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A tidal barrage with two separate storage pounds can manage water
>>>>>> levels
>>>>>> in such a way that it should always be able to generate some power.
>>>>>> With the demise of actual shipping uses for the docks in East London,
>>>>>> I'm surprised nobody has suggested using something like the Royal
>>>>>> Docks
>>>>>> as a tidal energy storage facility.  The Royal Docks have plenty of
>>>>>> volume, and the tidal range of the Thames in that reach ought to
>>>>>> allow
>>>>>> for a reasonable amount of energy to be produced.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tides rotate around the country and with a number of tidal schemes
>>>>> only
>>>>> one or two at a time would not be producing power.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but that doesn’t match with the idea that Northfleet should use
>>>> tidal
>>>> power because it’s near the coast.  Either it needs local storage to
>>>> match
>>>> supply and demand, or it needs long distance transmission to use
>>>> non-local
>>>> supply, in which case being near the coast is irrelevant.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Agree, but a newbuild site could easily incorporate a pond type of
>>> storage to even out generation across the day.
>>>
>>
>> Modern day tide mill!
>>
>
> Or wave power ? - If anyone can make a design that is both reliable and
> affordable.
>

Wind = unreliable.
Wave = unreliable
Tide = predictable and reliable for approx 20 hours per day

Obvious where the research money should have gone, but greedy landowners
managed to con the gov'mint into subsidising an unreliable source.

--
Colin

On 23/02/2022 22:45, ColinR wrote:
> Wind = unreliable.
> Wave = unreliable
> Tide = predictable and reliable for approx 20 hours per day

Wind spoils the landscape, wave and tide probably have a huge effect on
the environment in coastal areas.

I am still convinced that it is only a matter of time before a very
large vessel, carrying something nasty, ploughs into a large wind
turbine site.

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 23/02/2022 16:25, Bevan Price wrote:
>> On 22/02/2022 10:24, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 22/02/2022 10:16, ColinR wrote:
>>>> On 22/02/2022 10:02, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 21/02/2022 10:31, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2022-02-18 17:58:36 +0000, Sam Wilson said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 16/02/2022 14:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <aurp0h9jjfks9al53ao5j4rm0b0mjdbqco@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>> 12:37:51 on
>>>>>>>>>> Wed, 16 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Britishvolt, which is also planning a "gigafactory" in
>>>>>>>>>>> Northumberland
>>>>>>>>>>> to make electric car batteries, has set out plans to recycle
>>>>>>>>>>> more than
>>>>>>>>>>> 10,000 tonnes of battery packs a year.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It aims to power the new centre, in Northfleet, with wind and
>>>>>>>>>>> solar
>>>>>>>>>>> energy.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Not exclusively, though, unless they install a very big set of
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>>>> batteries. Sometimes we have a whole week with virtually no
>>>>>>>>>> wind/sun,
>>>>>>>>>> and this time of year just no-wind would mean operating for only
>>>>>>>>>> perhaps
>>>>>>>>>> five hours a day.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Northfleet is near the coast - use reliable tidal power instead.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> … which drops to zero (locally) approximately 4 times a day.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A tidal barrage with two separate storage pounds can manage water
>>>>>>> levels
>>>>>>> in such a way that it should always be able to generate some power.
>>>>>>> With the demise of actual shipping uses for the docks in East London,
>>>>>>> I'm surprised nobody has suggested using something like the Royal
>>>>>>> Docks
>>>>>>> as a tidal energy storage facility.  The Royal Docks have plenty of
>>>>>>> volume, and the tidal range of the Thames in that reach ought to
>>>>>>> allow
>>>>>>> for a reasonable amount of energy to be produced.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tides rotate around the country and with a number of tidal schemes
>>>>>> only
>>>>>> one or two at a time would not be producing power.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but that doesn’t match with the idea that Northfleet should use
>>>>> tidal
>>>>> power because it’s near the coast.  Either it needs local storage to
>>>>> match
>>>>> supply and demand, or it needs long distance transmission to use
>>>>> non-local
>>>>> supply, in which case being near the coast is irrelevant.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Agree, but a newbuild site could easily incorporate a pond type of
>>>> storage to even out generation across the day.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Modern day tide mill!
>>>
>>
>> Or wave power ? - If anyone can make a design that is both reliable and
>> affordable.
>>
>
> Wind = unreliable.
> Wave = unreliable
> Tide = predictable and reliable for approx 20 hours per day
>
> Obvious where the research money should have gone, but greedy landowners
> managed to con the gov'mint into subsidising an unreliable source.
>

Renewable energy isn't just a UK thing. Wind turbines have beaten out tidal
power throughout the world. You can't blame that on the influence of UK
landowners. Tidal power simply isn't commercially vable in most places, and
after decades of development, there are hardly any significant tidal power
stations in service.

Compare the world's largest tidal project's 254MW (one of only two over
200MW in the world) with the multiple Gigawatt sized wind farms, including
Hornsea One off the Yorkshire coast, with a total capacity of 1.2 GW:
<https://www.nesfircroft.com/blog/2021/11/the-worlds-biggest-wind-farms>

In message <fr971h5jo38v4p1am003lbb1o1fn9cm4of@4ax.com>, at 14:54:44 on
Mon, 21 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 14:49:59 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <sv00fa$9ej$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:27:22 on Mon, 21 Feb
>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <suvp1a$j88$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:20:27 on Mon, 21 Feb
>>
>>>>> Our other big problem with the Freelander was the poor ground
>>>>> clearance.
>>>>
>>>> That was a criticism of the Freelander 1 (fixed in the Freelander 2).
>>>>
>>>> The F1 was a fork from the Honda CRV, and not really intended to be a
>>>> fully fledged off-roader.
>>>
>>>Are you quite sure of that? I didn't think that the original Freelander
>>>had nothing to do with any Honda. I think you're demonstrating your New
>>>Scientist 'little knowledge' syndrome.
>>
>>It started as a joint development with Honda, but the teams soon split,
>>and while the CRV got to market earlier, the Freelander 1 was much more
>>of a shrunken Discovery, than a Honda Civic [Rover 400] on stilts.
>>because they wanted to get it right, rather than sooner.
>
>No, I'm afraid you're wrong, yet again. It was based on the older
>Maestro, not any Honda chassis.

Oh well, there goes Wikipedia out of the window again. Eight references
to Honda Civic on the CRV page, and none to Maestro.
--
Roland Perry

On 23/02/2022 22:45, ColinR wrote:
> On 23/02/2022 16:25, Bevan Price wrote:
>> On 22/02/2022 10:24, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 22/02/2022 10:16, ColinR wrote:
>>>> On 22/02/2022 10:02, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 21/02/2022 10:31, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2022-02-18 17:58:36 +0000, Sam Wilson said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 16/02/2022 14:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <aurp0h9jjfks9al53ao5j4rm0b0mjdbqco@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>> 12:37:51 on
>>>>>>>>>> Wed, 16 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Britishvolt, which is also planning a "gigafactory" in
>>>>>>>>>>> Northumberland
>>>>>>>>>>> to make electric car batteries, has set out plans to recycle
>>>>>>>>>>> more than
>>>>>>>>>>> 10,000 tonnes of battery packs a year.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It aims to power the new centre, in Northfleet, with wind and
>>>>>>>>>>> solar
>>>>>>>>>>> energy.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Not exclusively, though, unless they install a very big set of
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>>>> batteries. Sometimes we have a whole week with virtually no
>>>>>>>>>> wind/sun,
>>>>>>>>>> and this time of year just no-wind would mean operating for only
>>>>>>>>>> perhaps
>>>>>>>>>> five hours a day.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Northfleet is near the coast - use reliable tidal power instead.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> … which drops to zero (locally) approximately 4 times a day.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A tidal barrage with two separate storage pounds can manage water
>>>>>>> levels
>>>>>>> in such a way that it should always be able to generate some power.
>>>>>>> With the demise of actual shipping uses for the docks in East
>>>>>>> London,
>>>>>>> I'm surprised nobody has suggested using something like the Royal
>>>>>>> Docks
>>>>>>> as a tidal energy storage facility.  The Royal Docks have plenty of
>>>>>>> volume, and the tidal range of the Thames in that reach ought to
>>>>>>> allow
>>>>>>> for a reasonable amount of energy to be produced.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tides rotate around the country and with a number of tidal schemes
>>>>>> only
>>>>>> one or two at a time would not be producing power.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but that doesn’t match with the idea that Northfleet should
>>>>> use tidal
>>>>> power because it’s near the coast.  Either it needs local storage
>>>>> to match
>>>>> supply and demand, or it needs long distance transmission to use
>>>>> non-local
>>>>> supply, in which case being near the coast is irrelevant.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Agree, but a newbuild site could easily incorporate a pond type of
>>>> storage to even out generation across the day.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Modern day tide mill!
>>>
>>
>> Or wave power ? - If anyone can make a design that is both reliable
>> and affordable.
>>
>
> Wind = unreliable.
> Wave = unreliable
> Tide = predictable and reliable for approx 20 hours per day

Wind generation, mature technology, works well
Wave generation currently sunk without trace
Tide generation, this year, next year. sometime, never.

>
> Obvious where the research money should have gone, but greedy landowners
> managed to con the gov'mint into subsidising an unreliable source.
>

Into wind and solar, obviously, with a side order of Rolls-Royce mini-nukes.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 23/02/2022 23:00, MB wrote:
> On 23/02/2022 22:45, ColinR wrote:
>> Wind = unreliable.
>> Wave = unreliable
>> Tide = predictable and reliable for approx 20 hours per day
>
> Wind spoils the landscape, wave and tide probably have a huge effect on
> the environment in coastal areas.

And massive fossil fuelled power stations don't?

>
> I am still convinced that it is only a matter of time before a very
> large vessel, carrying something nasty, ploughs into a large wind
> turbine site.
>

A opposed to a very large plane ploughing into Sizewell B?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 24/02/2022 07:40, Graeme Wall wrote:
> A opposed to a very large plane ploughing into Sizewell B?

Aren't the containtment buildings designed with that in mind.

Nuclear power has to build layer up on layer of protection systems which
other generations system are not required to have.