Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <tabn66$1120s$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:01:26 on Sat, 9 Jul
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 08/07/2022 18:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ta9lhl$orfv$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:21:09 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ta45cs$22st$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:52 on Wed, 6 Jul
>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 06/07/2022 12:20, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t9jv9u$1sdpd$4@dont-email.me>, at 11:52:46 on Thu, 30 Jun
>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 30/06/2022 10:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t9gvbg$1cbas$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:35:12 on Wed, 29
>>>>>>>>>> Jun
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  Was going to check my card setup in Google Pay, but it turns out
>>>>>>>>>>>> to  be  yet another App that didn't survive the
>>>>>>>>>>>> back/restore/transfer  process  from my old phone to the new one.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe that's a security  thing, but it  shows how over-confident
>>>>>>>>>>>> some people are about that  process.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Funnily enough, on the phone that dare not speak its name (to
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland
>>>>>>>>>>> at least) that happens seamlessly.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the info. I didn't realise you could set up Google Pay
>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>> an  iPhone, but I suppose "why not"?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why not indeed, but I never said you could.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Because, of course "that" couldn't possibly refer to Google Pay, the
>>>>>>>> only payment app mentioned in the quoted text?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Apple Pay works seamlessly when you upgrade from one phone to
>>>>>>>>> another.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The ought to be *some* benefits from paying so much more for a
>>>>>>>> phone!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I could easily pay a lot more for an Android phone than I did for my
>>>>>>> current iPhone. But please carry on your childish vendetta against a
>>>>>>> product because you don't like the company's founder.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's not the founder, but the long term policies of the company.
>>>>>> Including the closed nature of the platform and the excessive profit
>>>>>> margin.
>>>>>
>>>>> The closed nature of the platform is exactly why I buy iPhones. How do
>>>>> you
>>>>> define excessive profit margins exactly? Other than Roland arbitrary
>>>>> thinks
>>>>> it is too much?  Another way of viewing it is it is a long term
>>>>> sustainable
>>>>> business model.
>>>>
>>>> I'd have thought selling things like that for about 50% profit margin
>>>> should be sufficient. And they've got so big a cash pile the
>>>> sustainability argument no longer applies.
>>>
>>> What is the actual profit margin on an iPhone and on a Samsung?
>>
>> The conventional anti Apple argument is to look at the raw bill of material
>> costs and then declare that the end user selling price is too high.
>
> Because people saying that know how much it costs to 'solder' all those
> parts in place, and it's something like 5%
>
>> By that argument you’d never buy a loaf of bread in the supermarket,
>> the ingredient cost being significantly lower than the selling price.
>
> Not when you buy a generic loaf at 50p, rather than a branded one at £2.
>

I'm quite happy to pay more for a better quality of loaf.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <taaa9u$qpl0$5@dont-email.me>, at 22:15:26 on Fri, 8 Jul
> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ta9not$p2d0$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:59:08 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>> 2022, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> Wrote in message:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> time I needed battery replacement (and again for screen), I ordered an
>>>>>>> iFixit kit online and did it myself.
>>>>>> I wonder how long ago that was. Manufacturing techniques have moved on
>>>>>> and phones (and tablets) are ever more fiercely glued together.
>>>>> As usual, you're out of date.
>>>>
>>>> Indeed; these days Apple even has its own tools and parts store
>>>> for DIY servicing:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.selfservicerepair.com/home
>>>>
>>>> (Only launched a couple of months ago, so not all devices yet, and
>>>> at the moment US only but will be rolled out to Europe as well
>>>> this year.)
>>>
>>> Hmm, picked a repair at random and it's $269 for a screen plus $49 for 7
>>> day rental of the tools.
>>>
>>> Battery a bit cheaper at $70 plus $49.
>>>
>>> instructions for both full of "if this doesn't work perfectly, buy a new
>>> phone". Do they refund the repair kit?
>>>
>>>> The direction of travel is very much towards making self repair
>>>> easier, thanks mainly to "Right to repair" laws being passed in
>>>> various jurisdictions around the world (although unusually for
>>>> something pro consumer and pro environment, the US seems to be in
>>>> the lead on this.)
>>>
>>> I've self-repaired several non-Apple phones using hand tools that cost
>>> peanuts, and spares at around $20.
>>
>> <https://www.ifixit.com/Kits/iPhone-Fix-Kits/iPhone-Battery-Kits>
>>
>> iPhone battery £70-£30 depending on model
>>
>> iPhone screen £350-£30 depending on model
>>
>> iPhone connector/camera/speaker etc £100-£9 depending on component and
>> model.
>
> And where is the rental cost of the ungluing equipment in that?
>

There is no glue to unglue. Anything stuck in (eg battery) will have a
pull-tab to release the adhesive.

The kits include all the tools you need, and you get to keep them
afterwards too!

(Various tiny sizes of screwdrivers and torx drives, spudgers, suckers,
plus any sticky pads you might need)

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 09/07/2022 17:48, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tabn66$1120s$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:01:26 on Sat, 9 Jul
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 08/07/2022 18:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ta9lhl$orfv$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:21:09 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ta45cs$22st$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:52 on Wed, 6 Jul
>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 06/07/2022 12:20, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t9jv9u$1sdpd$4@dont-email.me>, at 11:52:46 on Thu, 30 Jun
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On 30/06/2022 10:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t9gvbg$1cbas$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:35:12 on Wed, 29
>>>>>>>>>>> Jun
>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Was going to check my card setup in Google Pay, but it turns out
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to  be  yet another App that didn't survive the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> back/restore/transfer  process  from my old phone to the new one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe that's a security  thing, but it  shows how over-confident
>>>>>>>>>>>>> some people are about that  process.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Funnily enough, on the phone that dare not speak its name (to
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland
>>>>>>>>>>>> at least) that happens seamlessly.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the info. I didn't realise you could set up Google Pay
>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>> an  iPhone, but I suppose "why not"?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why not indeed, but I never said you could.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Because, of course "that" couldn't possibly refer to Google Pay, the
>>>>>>>>> only payment app mentioned in the quoted text?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Apple Pay works seamlessly when you upgrade from one phone to
>>>>>>>>>> another.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The ought to be *some* benefits from paying so much more for a
>>>>>>>>> phone!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I could easily pay a lot more for an Android phone than I did for my
>>>>>>>> current iPhone. But please carry on your childish vendetta against a
>>>>>>>> product because you don't like the company's founder.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's not the founder, but the long term policies of the company.
>>>>>>> Including the closed nature of the platform and the excessive profit
>>>>>>> margin.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The closed nature of the platform is exactly why I buy iPhones. How do
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> define excessive profit margins exactly? Other than Roland arbitrary
>>>>>> thinks
>>>>>> it is too much?  Another way of viewing it is it is a long term
>>>>>> sustainable
>>>>>> business model.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd have thought selling things like that for about 50% profit margin
>>>>> should be sufficient. And they've got so big a cash pile the
>>>>> sustainability argument no longer applies.
>>>>
>>>> What is the actual profit margin on an iPhone and on a Samsung?
>>>
>>> The conventional anti Apple argument is to look at the raw bill of material
>>> costs and then declare that the end user selling price is too high.
>>
>> Because people saying that know how much it costs to 'solder' all those
>> parts in place, and it's something like 5%
>>
>>> By that argument you’d never buy a loaf of bread in the supermarket,
>>> the ingredient cost being significantly lower than the selling price.
>>
>> Not when you buy a generic loaf at 50p, rather than a branded one at £2.
>>
>
> I'm quite happy to pay more for a better quality of loaf.
>

Me, I make my own bread :-)

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 09/07/2022 17:48, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tabn66$1120s$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:01:26 on Sat, 9 Jul
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 08/07/2022 18:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ta9lhl$orfv$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:21:09 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ta45cs$22st$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:52 on Wed, 6 Jul
>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 06/07/2022 12:20, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t9jv9u$1sdpd$4@dont-email.me>, at 11:52:46 on Thu, 30 Jun
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 30/06/2022 10:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t9gvbg$1cbas$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:35:12 on Wed, 29
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jun
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Was going to check my card setup in Google Pay, but it turns out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to  be  yet another App that didn't survive the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> back/restore/transfer  process  from my old phone to the new one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe that's a security  thing, but it  shows how over-confident
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some people are about that  process.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Funnily enough, on the phone that dare not speak its name (to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland
>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least) that happens seamlessly.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the info. I didn't realise you could set up Google Pay
>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>> an  iPhone, but I suppose "why not"?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why not indeed, but I never said you could.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Because, of course "that" couldn't possibly refer to Google Pay, the
>>>>>>>>>> only payment app mentioned in the quoted text?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Apple Pay works seamlessly when you upgrade from one phone to
>>>>>>>>>>> another.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The ought to be *some* benefits from paying so much more for a
>>>>>>>>>> phone!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I could easily pay a lot more for an Android phone than I did for my
>>>>>>>>> current iPhone. But please carry on your childish vendetta against a
>>>>>>>>> product because you don't like the company's founder.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's not the founder, but the long term policies of the company.
>>>>>>>> Including the closed nature of the platform and the excessive profit
>>>>>>>> margin.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The closed nature of the platform is exactly why I buy iPhones. How do
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> define excessive profit margins exactly? Other than Roland arbitrary
>>>>>>> thinks
>>>>>>> it is too much?  Another way of viewing it is it is a long term
>>>>>>> sustainable
>>>>>>> business model.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd have thought selling things like that for about 50% profit margin
>>>>>> should be sufficient. And they've got so big a cash pile the
>>>>>> sustainability argument no longer applies.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is the actual profit margin on an iPhone and on a Samsung?
>>>>
>>>> The conventional anti Apple argument is to look at the raw bill of material
>>>> costs and then declare that the end user selling price is too high.
>>>
>>> Because people saying that know how much it costs to 'solder' all those
>>> parts in place, and it's something like 5%
>>>
>>>> By that argument you’d never buy a loaf of bread in the supermarket,
>>>> the ingredient cost being significantly lower than the selling price.
>>>
>>> Not when you buy a generic loaf at 50p, rather than a branded one at £2.
>>>
>>
>> I'm quite happy to pay more for a better quality of loaf.
>
> Me, I make my own bread :-)

Me too, but we’re clearly not people who can’t afford to save money by
buying the giant economy size.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 09/07/2022 17:48, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tabn66$1120s$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:01:26 on Sat, 9 Jul
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 08/07/2022 18:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ta9lhl$orfv$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:21:09 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ta45cs$22st$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:52 on Wed, 6 Jul
>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 06/07/2022 12:20, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t9jv9u$1sdpd$4@dont-email.me>, at 11:52:46 on Thu, 30 Jun
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 30/06/2022 10:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t9gvbg$1cbas$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:35:12 on Wed, 29
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jun
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Was going to check my card setup in Google Pay, but it turns out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to  be  yet another App that didn't survive the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> back/restore/transfer  process  from my old phone to the new one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe that's a security  thing, but it  shows how over-confident
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some people are about that  process.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Funnily enough, on the phone that dare not speak its name (to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland
>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least) that happens seamlessly.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the info. I didn't realise you could set up Google Pay
>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>> an  iPhone, but I suppose "why not"?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why not indeed, but I never said you could.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Because, of course "that" couldn't possibly refer to Google Pay, the
>>>>>>>>>> only payment app mentioned in the quoted text?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Apple Pay works seamlessly when you upgrade from one phone to
>>>>>>>>>>> another.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The ought to be *some* benefits from paying so much more for a
>>>>>>>>>> phone!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I could easily pay a lot more for an Android phone than I did for my
>>>>>>>>> current iPhone. But please carry on your childish vendetta against a
>>>>>>>>> product because you don't like the company's founder.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's not the founder, but the long term policies of the company.
>>>>>>>> Including the closed nature of the platform and the excessive profit
>>>>>>>> margin.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The closed nature of the platform is exactly why I buy iPhones. How do
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> define excessive profit margins exactly? Other than Roland arbitrary
>>>>>>> thinks
>>>>>>> it is too much?  Another way of viewing it is it is a long term
>>>>>>> sustainable
>>>>>>> business model.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd have thought selling things like that for about 50% profit margin
>>>>>> should be sufficient. And they've got so big a cash pile the
>>>>>> sustainability argument no longer applies.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is the actual profit margin on an iPhone and on a Samsung?
>>>>
>>>> The conventional anti Apple argument is to look at the raw bill of material
>>>> costs and then declare that the end user selling price is too high.
>>>
>>> Because people saying that know how much it costs to 'solder' all those
>>> parts in place, and it's something like 5%
>>>
>>>> By that argument you’d never buy a loaf of bread in the supermarket,
>>>> the ingredient cost being significantly lower than the selling price.
>>>
>>> Not when you buy a generic loaf at 50p, rather than a branded one at £2.
>>>
>>
>> I'm quite happy to pay more for a better quality of loaf.
>>
>
> Me, I make my own bread :-)
>
>
>

Me too, when I can (a) be bothered (b) keep sourdough starter alive long
enough (c) have starter active enough to bake with on a day I've got time
to do it.

On the days when those things don't align, I'm happy to pay £2 for a
quality loaf rather than 50p for soggy bargain Chorleywood mush.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <tacbg6$1371r$2@dont-email.me>, at 16:48:06 on Sat, 9 Jul
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <taaa9u$qpl0$5@dont-email.me>, at 22:15:26 on Fri, 8 Jul
>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ta9not$p2d0$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:59:08 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>> 2022, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> Wrote in message:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> time I needed battery replacement (and again for screen), I ordered an
>>>>>>>> iFixit kit online and did it myself.
>>>>>>> I wonder how long ago that was. Manufacturing techniques have moved on
>>>>>>> and phones (and tablets) are ever more fiercely glued together.
>>>>>> As usual, you're out of date.
>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed; these days Apple even has its own tools and parts store
>>>>> for DIY servicing:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.selfservicerepair.com/home
>>>>>
>>>>> (Only launched a couple of months ago, so not all devices yet, and
>>>>> at the moment US only but will be rolled out to Europe as well
>>>>> this year.)
>>>>
>>>> Hmm, picked a repair at random and it's $269 for a screen plus $49 for 7
>>>> day rental of the tools.
>>>>
>>>> Battery a bit cheaper at $70 plus $49.
>>>>
>>>> instructions for both full of "if this doesn't work perfectly, buy a new
>>>> phone". Do they refund the repair kit?
>>>>
>>>>> The direction of travel is very much towards making self repair
>>>>> easier, thanks mainly to "Right to repair" laws being passed in
>>>>> various jurisdictions around the world (although unusually for
>>>>> something pro consumer and pro environment, the US seems to be in
>>>>> the lead on this.)
>>>>
>>>> I've self-repaired several non-Apple phones using hand tools that cost
>>>> peanuts, and spares at around $20.
>>>
>>> <https://www.ifixit.com/Kits/iPhone-Fix-Kits/iPhone-Battery-Kits>
>>>
>>> iPhone battery £70-£30 depending on model
>>>
>>> iPhone screen £350-£30 depending on model
>>>
>>> iPhone connector/camera/speaker etc £100-£9 depending on component and
>>> model.
>>
>> And where is the rental cost of the ungluing equipment in that?
>
>There is no glue to unglue. Anything stuck in (eg battery) will have a
>pull-tab to release the adhesive.

The glue keeps the two halves of the case together (it's one of the
techniques they use to make them so slim).

>The kits include all the tools you need, and you get to keep them
>afterwards too!

Why then does the Apple site quote a price for rental of equipment?

>(Various tiny sizes of screwdrivers and torx drives, spudgers, suckers,
>plus any sticky pads you might need)

ps We've actually been through all this in the past regarding new
batteries for Microsoft Surface tablets. Where it transpired the ones on
sale, and the "easy peasy" instructions *only* applied to the Surface 1,
and advice for Surface 2 was "Hah, it's virtually impossible, just buy a
battery swap from Microsoft".

Which like many iPhone "repairs" probably turns out to be a complete
unit-swap closer to "at cost" than the original sales price (just to
keep the customer base on side). But still vastly more than a
conventional exchangeable battery would have cost.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <tacbg6$1371r$2@dont-email.me>, at 16:48:06 on Sat, 9 Jul
> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <taaa9u$qpl0$5@dont-email.me>, at 22:15:26 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ta9not$p2d0$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:59:08 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>>> 2022, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> Wrote in message:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> time I needed battery replacement (and again for screen), I ordered an
>>>>>>>>> iFixit kit online and did it myself.
>>>>>>>> I wonder how long ago that was. Manufacturing techniques have moved on
>>>>>>>> and phones (and tablets) are ever more fiercely glued together.
>>>>>>> As usual, you're out of date.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed; these days Apple even has its own tools and parts store
>>>>>> for DIY servicing:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.selfservicerepair.com/home
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Only launched a couple of months ago, so not all devices yet, and
>>>>>> at the moment US only but will be rolled out to Europe as well
>>>>>> this year.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmm, picked a repair at random and it's $269 for a screen plus $49 for 7
>>>>> day rental of the tools.
>>>>>
>>>>> Battery a bit cheaper at $70 plus $49.
>>>>>
>>>>> instructions for both full of "if this doesn't work perfectly, buy a new
>>>>> phone". Do they refund the repair kit?
>>>>>
>>>>>> The direction of travel is very much towards making self repair
>>>>>> easier, thanks mainly to "Right to repair" laws being passed in
>>>>>> various jurisdictions around the world (although unusually for
>>>>>> something pro consumer and pro environment, the US seems to be in
>>>>>> the lead on this.)
>>>>>
>>>>> I've self-repaired several non-Apple phones using hand tools that cost
>>>>> peanuts, and spares at around $20.
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.ifixit.com/Kits/iPhone-Fix-Kits/iPhone-Battery-Kits>
>>>>
>>>> iPhone battery £70-£30 depending on model
>>>>
>>>> iPhone screen £350-£30 depending on model
>>>>
>>>> iPhone connector/camera/speaker etc £100-£9 depending on component and
>>>> model.
>>>
>>> And where is the rental cost of the ungluing equipment in that?
>>
>> There is no glue to unglue. Anything stuck in (eg battery) will have a
>> pull-tab to release the adhesive.
>
> The glue keeps the two halves of the case together (it's one of the
> techniques they use to make them so slim).
>

Perhaps on cheaper phones.

Not in iPhones, since around iPhone 4. If it's got flat sides and a couple
of tiny screws at the bottom to hold it together, no glue. Watch some
iFixit videos on YouTube.

>> The kits include all the tools you need, and you get to keep them
>> afterwards too!
>
> Why then does the Apple site quote a price for rental of equipment?
>

Different company, different procedures?

>> (Various tiny sizes of screwdrivers and torx drives, spudgers, suckers,
>> plus any sticky pads you might need)
>
> ps We've actually been through all this in the past regarding new
> batteries for Microsoft Surface tablets.

Oh, I didn't realise they were made by Apple.

> Where it transpired the ones on
> sale, and the "easy peasy" instructions *only* applied to the Surface 1,
> and advice for Surface 2 was "Hah, it's virtually impossible, just buy a
> battery swap from Microsoft".
>
> Which like many iPhone "repairs" probably turns out to be a complete
> unit-swap closer to "at cost" than the original sales price (just to
> keep the customer base on side). But still vastly more than a
> conventional exchangeable battery would have cost.

If you take your under-warranty iPhone to an Apple Store for a fault, it's
highly likely you'll leave with a new phone, yes (most likely refurbished
rather than brand new).

But I've given you links to iFixit kits for replacement of screens,
batteries and other components (cameras, buttons, connectors) where they
literally send you the components, the instructions and the tools; how on
earth to do you propose that that could end up as a "complete unit swap"?!?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <ta9i1j$of6i$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:21:23 on Fri, 8 Jul
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ta3lph$i1g$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:48:33 on Wed, 6 Jul 2022,
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t9md2n$27i36$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:00:07 on Fri, 1 Jul
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>> One obvious problem is that if an airborne phone can successfully
>>>>>>> connect to a cell seven miles below, it can probably connect to several
>>>>>>> adjacent ones as well, so the phone will appear to be in perhaps half a
>>>>>>> dozen cells at once.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No different to a dense urban environment then.
>>>>>>
>>>>> It very much is. In a dense urban environment the handset can be told to
>>>>> lower its transmit power to limit the cells it can interact with. This
>>>>> wouldn’t work so well for an airborne handset.
>>>>
>>>> But the "handset" in the plane literally has line-of-sight to the mast,
>>>> so why wouldn't it be told to crank down the power as well?
>>>
>>> The phone on the plane is in line-of-sight with antennas in a number of
>>> cells, several miles to the side of its path, not directly beneath. So, if
>>> the plane is seven miles high, the phone might be able to obliquely 'see'
>>> 10-15 cells around 10 miles away. The nearer it is to a window, the more
>>> cells it will 'see'.
>>
>> You continue to fail to explain why that's a problem. Other than perhaps
>> repeating urban myths.
>
>We all know engineering isn't your forte, but try thinking about the
>interference.

We all know you are jealous about my engineering skills, which is why
you feel the need to keep up this tedious heckling.

Perhaps you can explain, using *your* engineering skills, exactly what
form this "interference" takes?

--
Roland Perry

In message <ta9l9e$oqhm$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:16:46 on Fri, 8 Jul
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ta3lph$i1g$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:48:33 on Wed, 6 Jul 2022,
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t9md2n$27i36$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:00:07 on Fri, 1 Jul
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>> One obvious problem is that if an airborne phone can successfully
>>>>>>> connect to a cell seven miles below, it can probably connect to several
>>>>>>> adjacent ones as well, so the phone will appear to be in perhaps half a
>>>>>>> dozen cells at once.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No different to a dense urban environment then.
>>>>>>
>>>>> It very much is. In a dense urban environment the handset can be told to
>>>>> lower its transmit power to limit the cells it can interact with. This
>>>>> wouldn’t work so well for an airborne handset.
>>>>
>>>> But the "handset" in the plane literally has line-of-sight to the mast,
>>>> so why wouldn't it be told to crank down the power as well?
>>>
>>> The phone on the plane is in line-of-sight with antennas in a number of
>>> cells, several miles to the side of its path, not directly beneath. So, if
>>> the plane is seven miles high, the phone might be able to obliquely 'see'
>>> 10-15 cells around 10 miles away. The nearer it is to a window, the more
>>> cells it will 'see'.
>>
>> You continue to fail to explain why that's a problem. Other than perhaps
>> repeating urban myths.
>
>Because a cellular network is designed precisely around geographic
>isolation and frequency reuse. Talking to multiple sites from above breaks
>that model. It can probably cope with the odd handset doing this, but lots
>would destroy network capacity (and probably confuse the cell site handover
>algorithms at the same time)

On one hand we need to quantify what "multiple sites" means (on more
modern G's there are other constraints on the distances away), and on
the other hand in the situation which started this subthread, there was
just one handset active on the plane.

The "bands" of which there are also many, look (on a quick skim) 50MHz
wide. What's the width of each cellsite's allocated channel - I'd start
with a bid of 5MHz.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ta3n1b$loi$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:09:47 on Wed, 6 Jul 2022,
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t9miof$2830k$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:37:04 on Fri, 1 Jul
>> 2022, MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>>> On 01/07/2022 10:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> Or because the helicopter would be flying across too many not-spots for
>>>> GSM to be a useful solution.
>>>
>>> Would they be "not spots" from a few thousand feet?
>>
>> Yes, because notwithstanding other commentary about GSM specs in other
>> subthreads, in the middle of the Yorkshire Moors (or whatever) the
>> not-spots will exceed the helicopter's ability to see over the next
>> range of hills.
>>
>>> Might not be able to use all those base stations but would cause
>>> interference to other traffic on them.
>>
>> I'm not sure what this "interference" might be, the cellular system is
>> designed for multiple cellsites to be in range, and I've never seen an
>> explanation for how and why there might be some glass ceiling on the
>> number.
>
>Because non-adjacent cells share frequencies, on the basis that receivers
>close to the ground won't be able to see more than one of them.

This sounds to me like the sort of meme arising from 2G technology. 4G
sites (for example) are far closer together - even without the business
of microcells in dense urban areas - and so the system has to be able to
cope with handsets which can see several (even "many").
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ta3n1b$loi$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:09:47 on Wed, 6 Jul 2022,
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t9miof$2830k$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:37:04 on Fri, 1 Jul
>>> 2022, MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>>>> On 01/07/2022 10:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> Or because the helicopter would be flying across too many not-spots for
>>>>> GSM to be a useful solution.
>>>>
>>>> Would they be "not spots" from a few thousand feet?
>>>
>>> Yes, because notwithstanding other commentary about GSM specs in other
>>> subthreads, in the middle of the Yorkshire Moors (or whatever) the
>>> not-spots will exceed the helicopter's ability to see over the next
>>> range of hills.
>>>
>>>> Might not be able to use all those base stations but would cause
>>>> interference to other traffic on them.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what this "interference" might be, the cellular system is
>>> designed for multiple cellsites to be in range, and I've never seen an
>>> explanation for how and why there might be some glass ceiling on the
>>> number.
>>
>> Because non-adjacent cells share frequencies, on the basis that receivers
>> close to the ground won't be able to see more than one of them.
>
> This sounds to me like the sort of meme arising from 2G technology. 4G
> sites (for example) are far closer together - even without the business
> of microcells in dense urban areas - and so the system has to be able to
> cope with handsets which can see several (even "many").

Look up why the FCC still bans them.

In message <tabvm2$11tjl$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:26:26 on Sat, 9 Jul
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tabn66$1120s$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:01:26 on Sat, 9 Jul
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 08/07/2022 18:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ta9lhl$orfv$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:21:09 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ta45cs$22st$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:52 on Wed, 6 Jul
>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 06/07/2022 12:20, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t9jv9u$1sdpd$4@dont-email.me>, at 11:52:46 on Thu, 30 Jun
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On 30/06/2022 10:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t9gvbg$1cbas$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:35:12 on Wed, 29
>>>>>>>>>>> Jun
>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Was going to check my card setup in Google Pay, but it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to  be  yet another App that didn't survive the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>back/restore/transfer  process  from my old phone to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>new one. Maybe that's a security  thing, but it  shows
>>>>>>>>>>>>>how over-confident some people are about that  process.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Funnily enough, on the phone that dare not speak its name
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland at least) that happens seamlessly.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the info. I didn't realise you could set up
>>>>>>>>>>> on an  iPhone, but I suppose "why not"?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why not indeed, but I never said you could.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Because, of course "that" couldn't possibly refer to Google Pay, the
>>>>>>>>> only payment app mentioned in the quoted text?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Apple Pay works seamlessly when you upgrade from one phone to
>>>>>>>>>> another.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The ought to be *some* benefits from paying so much more for a
>>>>>>>>> phone!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I could easily pay a lot more for an Android phone than I did for my
>>>>>>>> current iPhone. But please carry on your childish vendetta against a
>>>>>>>> product because you don't like the company's founder.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's not the founder, but the long term policies of the company.
>>>>>>> Including the closed nature of the platform and the excessive profit
>>>>>>> margin.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The closed nature of the platform is exactly why I buy iPhones.
>>>>>>How do you define excessive profit margins exactly? Other than
>>>>>>Roland arbitrary thinks it is too much?  Another way of viewing
>>>>>>it is it is a long term sustainable business model.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd have thought selling things like that for about 50% profit margin
>>>>> should be sufficient. And they've got so big a cash pile the
>>>>> sustainability argument no longer applies.
>>>>
>>>> What is the actual profit margin on an iPhone and on a Samsung?
>>>
>>> The conventional anti Apple argument is to look at the raw bill of material
>>> costs and then declare that the end user selling price is too high.
>>
>> Because people saying that know how much it costs to 'solder' all those
>> parts in place, and it's something like 5%
>>
>>> By that argument you’d never buy a loaf of bread in the supermarket,
>>> the ingredient cost being significantly lower than the selling price.
>>
>> Not when you buy a generic loaf at 50p, rather than a branded one at £2.
>
>There are many other costs to a business other than materials and assembly.
>A sustainable high tech business needs to invest huge amounts in R&D, a big
>UK failing. Amstrad computers hasn’t survived. Neither did Nokia’s handset
>division.

There's always been a big turnover in hi-tech companies, usually for
marketing reasons rather than R&D. Where are Atari, Acorn and Commodore?

>By any reasonable measure, after some early near death experiences, Apple
>is one of the most successful personal computer/mobile phone companies in
>the world and shows little sign of going bust in the foreseeable future.

That's because their marketing people know how to sell things to the
public at *huge* gross profit margins. Not because they are inherently
more-capable technology.

>I shan’t be attending the Perry business school.

And I won't be inviting Tweeds to attend.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tacbg5$1371r$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:48:05 on Sat, 9 Jul
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:

>>> The conventional anti Apple argument is to look at the raw bill of material
>>> costs and then declare that the end user selling price is too high.
>>
>> Because people saying that know how much it costs to 'solder' all those
>> parts in place, and it's something like 5%
>>
>>> By that argument you’d never buy a loaf of bread in the supermarket,
>>> the ingredient cost being significantly lower than the selling price.
>>
>> Not when you buy a generic loaf at 50p, rather than a branded one at £2.
>
>I'm quite happy to pay more for a better quality of loaf.

Yes, there is a market for that, but you have to be aware you are paying
four times as much for something that's maybe 20% better. But if it
makes you happy, then retailers with savvy marketing departments will
take your money.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tac0i4$120uq$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:41:24 on Sat, 9 Jul
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tabc9b$101rf$3@dont-email.me>, at 08:55:23 on Sat, 9 Jul
>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 08/07/2022 16:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ta45cs$22st$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:52 on Wed, 6 Jul
>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 06/07/2022 12:20, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t9jv9u$1sdpd$4@dont-email.me>, at 11:52:46 on Thu, 30 Jun
>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 30/06/2022 10:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t9gvbg$1cbas$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:35:12 on Wed, 29 Jun
>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>   Was going to check my card setup in Google Pay, but it turns out
>>>>>>>>>> to  be  yet another App that didn't survive the
>>>>>>>>>> back/restore/transfer  process  from my old phone to the new one.
>>>>>>>>>> Maybe that's a security  thing, but it  shows how over-confident
>>>>>>>>>> some people are about that  process.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Funnily enough, on the phone that dare not speak its name (to Roland
>>>>>>>>> at least) that happens seamlessly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Thanks for the info. I didn't realise you could set up Google Pay on
>>>>>>>> an  iPhone, but I suppose "why not"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why not indeed, but I never said you could.
>>>>
>>>>>>  Because, of course "that" couldn't possibly refer to Google Pay,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> only payment app mentioned in the quoted text?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Apple Pay works seamlessly when you upgrade from one phone to another.
>>>>
>>>>>>  The ought to be *some* benefits from paying so much more for a
>>>>>> phone!
>>>>>>
>>>>> I could easily pay a lot more for an Android phone than I did for my
>>>>> current iPhone. But please carry on your childish vendetta against a
>>>>> product because you don't like the company's founder.
>>>> It's not the founder, but the long term policies of the company.
>>>> Including the closed nature of the platform and the excessive profit
>>>> margin.
>>>
>>> The closed nature of the platform is ine of the selling points. And
>>> your excess profits argumeny has been debuked many tims. It just comes
>>> down to the standard anti-Apple childish behaviour of nerds who have
>>> never grown up.
>>
>> How do you debunk 50% gross profit margins?
>
>Amstrad computers vanished,

Although to some extent still exist, branded Viglen. What disappeared
was the market for 8-bit (or even 16-bit) home computers, that weren't
based on the IBM PC.

>Apple one of the most successful companies in the world?

That doesn't debunk Apple's profit margins. Has every company you ever
worked for become as successful as Apple, or did some fall by the
wayside?

I'm getting a bit tired of this harking back to Amstrad, anyway. I
worked there on the 8-bit machines over 35years ago, and while they were
spectacularly successful in their time, that's water under the bridge
and I've worked in three completely different industries since then.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <tacbg5$1371r$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:48:05 on Sat, 9 Jul
> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>
>>>> The conventional anti Apple argument is to look at the raw bill of material
>>>> costs and then declare that the end user selling price is too high.
>>>
>>> Because people saying that know how much it costs to 'solder' all those
>>> parts in place, and it's something like 5%
>>>
>>>> By that argument you’d never buy a loaf of bread in the supermarket,
>>>> the ingredient cost being significantly lower than the selling price.
>>>
>>> Not when you buy a generic loaf at 50p, rather than a branded one at £2.
>>
>> I'm quite happy to pay more for a better quality of loaf.
>
> Yes, there is a market for that, but you have to be aware you are paying
> four times as much for something that's maybe 20% better. But if it
> makes you happy, then retailers with savvy marketing departments will
> take your money.

It may be marketing to get them to try it once. It's something else if they
keep coming back for more.

Not everyone is as broke as you, invariably putting the lowest cost above
all else. Some people can afford, and choose to pay for, higher quality.

On Mon, 11 Jul 2022 10:07:26 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <tabvm2$11tjl$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:26:26 on Sat, 9 Jul
>2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tabn66$1120s$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:01:26 on Sat, 9 Jul
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 08/07/2022 18:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ta9lhl$orfv$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:21:09 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ta45cs$22st$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:52 on Wed, 6 Jul
>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 06/07/2022 12:20, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t9jv9u$1sdpd$4@dont-email.me>, at 11:52:46 on Thu, 30 Jun
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 30/06/2022 10:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t9gvbg$1cbas$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:35:12 on Wed, 29
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jun
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Was going to check my card setup in Google Pay, but it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to  be  yet another App that didn't survive the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>back/restore/transfer  process  from my old phone to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>new one. Maybe that's a security  thing, but it  shows
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>how over-confident some people are about that  process.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Funnily enough, on the phone that dare not speak its name
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland at least) that happens seamlessly.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the info. I didn't realise you could set up
>>>>>>>>>>>> on an  iPhone, but I suppose "why not"?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why not indeed, but I never said you could.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Because, of course "that" couldn't possibly refer to Google Pay, the
>>>>>>>>>> only payment app mentioned in the quoted text?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Apple Pay works seamlessly when you upgrade from one phone to
>>>>>>>>>>> another.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The ought to be *some* benefits from paying so much more for a
>>>>>>>>>> phone!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I could easily pay a lot more for an Android phone than I did for my
>>>>>>>>> current iPhone. But please carry on your childish vendetta against a
>>>>>>>>> product because you don't like the company's founder.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's not the founder, but the long term policies of the company.
>>>>>>>> Including the closed nature of the platform and the excessive profit
>>>>>>>> margin.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The closed nature of the platform is exactly why I buy iPhones.
>>>>>>>How do you define excessive profit margins exactly? Other than
>>>>>>>Roland arbitrary thinks it is too much?  Another way of viewing
>>>>>>>it is it is a long term sustainable business model.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd have thought selling things like that for about 50% profit margin
>>>>>> should be sufficient. And they've got so big a cash pile the
>>>>>> sustainability argument no longer applies.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is the actual profit margin on an iPhone and on a Samsung?
>>>>
>>>> The conventional anti Apple argument is to look at the raw bill of material
>>>> costs and then declare that the end user selling price is too high.
>>>
>>> Because people saying that know how much it costs to 'solder' all those
>>> parts in place, and it's something like 5%
>>>
>>>> By that argument you’d never buy a loaf of bread in the supermarket,
>>>> the ingredient cost being significantly lower than the selling price.
>>>
>>> Not when you buy a generic loaf at 50p, rather than a branded one at £2.
>>
>>There are many other costs to a business other than materials and assembly.
>>A sustainable high tech business needs to invest huge amounts in R&D, a big
>>UK failing. Amstrad computers hasn’t survived. Neither did Nokia’s handset
>>division.
>
>There's always been a big turnover in hi-tech companies, usually for
>marketing reasons rather than R&D. Where are Atari, Acorn and Commodore?
>
>>By any reasonable measure, after some early near death experiences, Apple
>>is one of the most successful personal computer/mobile phone companies in
>>the world and shows little sign of going bust in the foreseeable future.
>
>That's because their marketing people know how to sell things to the
>public at *huge* gross profit margins. Not because they are inherently
>more-capable technology.

Do you really think it's just Apple's slick marketing that makes Apple customers so fiercely loyal?

In message <t9k0hb$1t1a2$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:13:55 on Thu, 30 Jun
2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>On 30/06/2022 11:50, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 30/06/2022 10:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t9fdnp$1539g$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:28:25 on Tue, 28
>>>Jun 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> I'm looking forward to trying this all out with an Apple Watch, but
>>>>> sometimes the "let them eat cake" [aka spend £1000 on an iPhone) thing
>>>>> gets a bit tiresome.
>>>>
>>>> Neither once in a lifetime nor once per trip. You select the card
>>>>you wish to use and that remains in force until you perhaps choose
>>>>to use another card.
>>>>
>>>> I don’t own an Apple Watch, but I’m not convinced it can have a
>>>>practical separate existence without an associated iPhone.
>>>>
>>>> Do stop spreading FUD about iPhone prices. You can buy a brand new
>>>>one, sim free, for £419.
>>>
>>> Same order of magnitude. Of course, at Apple mark-ups that cost them
>>>about £150 to manufacture.
>>>
>>>  > https://www.apple.com/uk/iphone-se/
>>>
>>> Apparently not very popular, and they've cut production by 20%, but
>>>reviewers like it and say it's an iPhone 8 plus some later tech
>>>imported from the iPhone 11.

>> Yup, that's what I've got.
>
>Hey, I went into a shop yesterday and paid for something using those
>strange circular discs called coins. I did not have to "set-up" those
>coins, I did not have to link to the t'interweb to make the payment.
>All very quick and easy, I wonder why more people do not use that free
>method of payment ....

I've got chimney sweep coming later in the week (fx: hums song from Mary
Poppins) and they take only cash or <drum roll> cheque. Result!!

I just hope he doesn't bring a small child with him to help, because the
flue isn't that big.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t9mf03$27o7r$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:32:51 on Fri, 1 Jul
2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:

>> I have a little plastic card which weighs much less than a phone, in
>>fact I can carry several without noticing, and it seems to have
>>pretty much the same advantages except that I never need to charge
>>the battery since it doesn’t have one. :-)
>
>Can your little plastic card send and receive messages? Tell the time?
>Give you directions? Tell you when the next bus is coming? Give you
>information on train/bus schedules? Tell the time?

At least a five mile radius from here, I already know all of that (yes,
even the time, my car has a clock).

>I take my phone with me because it can do those things, so it is not a
>choice of either a phone or a plastic card, but a choice of just a
>phone or a phone and also a plastic card.

Work life balance - I have two 'live' phones (one of which they don't
let me add cards to), and after many years of being on 24x7 standby, I
actually find it quite relaxing *not* to have to carry one with me
everywhere.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t9kekq$1uk0c$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:34 on Thu, 30 Jun
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t9fdnp$1539g$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:28:25 on Tue, 28 Jun
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> I'm looking forward to trying this all out with an Apple Watch, but
>>>> sometimes the "let them eat cake" [aka spend £1000 on an iPhone) thing
>>>> gets a bit tiresome.
>>>
>>> Neither once in a lifetime nor once per trip. You select the card you wish
>>> to use and that remains in force until you perhaps choose to use another
>>> card.
>>>
>>> I don’t own an Apple Watch, but I’m not convinced it can have a
>>>practical
>>> separate existence without an associated iPhone.
>>>
>>> Do stop spreading FUD about iPhone prices. You can buy a brand new one, sim
>>> free, for £419.
>>
>> Same order of magnitude. Of course, at Apple mark-ups that cost them
>> about £150 to manufacture.
>>
>>> https://www.apple.com/uk/iphone-se/
>>
>> Apparently not very popular, and they've cut production by 20%, but
>> reviewers like it and say it's an iPhone 8 plus some later tech imported
>> from the iPhone 11.
>
>If you are pricing phones by orders of magnitude there’s not much point in
>discussing pricing with you.

Sounds to me like you don't understand orders of magnitude (and pricing
points). To the average consumer they'll buy something that's £149 vs
£199, especially if they only have £200 disposable income. The £199
will look like the "super" model to them.

>Whether or not the SE is popular is irrelevant. I’ve got one and it works
>well. I’m just pointing out that your assertions about Apple’s pricing is
>incorrect.

Nothing you have said dispels the notion that the phone in question has
a 50% gross margin.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t9kfh0$1un4b$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:29:36 on Thu, 30 Jun
2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>On 2022-06-30 15:14:34 +0000, Tweed said:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t9fdnp$1539g$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:28:25 on Tue, 28 Jun
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> I'm looking forward to trying this all out with an Apple Watch,
>>>>>
>>>>> sometimes the "let them eat cake" [aka spend £1000 on an iPhone) thing
>>>>> gets a bit tiresome.

>>>> Neither once in a lifetime nor once per trip. You select the card
>>>>you wish to use and that remains in force until you perhaps choose
>>>>to use another card. I don’t own an Apple Watch, but I’m not
>>>>convinced it can have a practical separate existence without an
>>>>associated iPhone. Do stop spreading FUD about iPhone prices. You
>>>>can buy a brand new one, sim free, for £419.

>>> Same order of magnitude. Of course, at Apple mark-ups that cost
>>>them about £150 to manufacture.
>>>
>>>> https://www.apple.com/uk/iphone-se/

>>> Apparently not very popular, and they've cut production by 20%, but
>>> reviewers like it and say it's an iPhone 8 plus some later tech imported
>>> from the iPhone 11.

>> If you are pricing phones by orders of magnitude there’s not much
>>point in discussing pricing with you. Whether or not the SE is
>>popular is irrelevant. I’ve got one and it works well. I’m just
>>pointing out that your assertions about Apple’s pricing is incorrect.
>
>One of the main draws of the iPhone is the long software support. It
>is viable to keep using an iPhone for 5 years, while it is rare for an
>android phone to be supported for half that time. If you want to have
>a phone that you can keep for as long as it gets supported by the
>newest software, but not replaced before support ends, iPhones end up,
>in the long term, to be a much cheaper option, in spite of the higher
>up-front price.

Do people really keep phones that long (even if they are blind to the
"new shiny, you must have new and shiny" marketing material).

I don't know whether iPhone Apps will always work on 5yr-old phones, but
one of the main reasons I've upgraded my Android in the past is because
too many apps said "sorry, your OS is too old".

Other people I know go through screens and batteries faster than every
five years.

Update availability is a minefield, but a quick look suggests the most
recent iPhone to have support withdrawn was the iPhone 6 (available to
buy mainstream until September 2017, a version only available since
March 2016) where the final release of iOS was 12, available until
September 2019.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t9ktts$20gk4$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:35:24 on Thu, 30 Jun
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t9fk3i$15rmf$3@dont-email.me>, at 19:17:06 on Tue, 28 Jun
>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> The fingerprint sensor on one of my phones is round the back, which
>>>> isn't where I'd naturally be grabbing the phone. On the other it's at
>>>> the bottom of the screen, which is even less involved in phone-grabbing.
>>>
>>> Someone else in this thread has posted that the fingerprint sensor on the
>>> rear is exactly where his finger naturally falls, so perhaps some people
>>> hold phones differently?
>>
>> I hold mine by the edges, not the body.
>
>I find my index finger sits naturally about the middle of the rear of my
>phone.

My middle finger might, but that's not the one enrolled.

>>> I switched off fingerprint for unlock on my iPhone, because my thumb
>>> naturally fell on the home button
>>
>> That's at the front, I think.
>>
>>> when getting it out of my pocket, and it always unlocked; when often I
>>> didn't want it unlocked, eg just to check time or notifications.
>>>
>>>>> I can't comment knowledgeably on gloves as I never wear them,
>>>>
>>>> You need to get out more. It's cold in Winter.
>>>
>>> Not everyone feels the cold enough to wear gloves as much as other people.
>>> It has to be *really* cold for me to wear gloves! (Unless I'm cycling,
>>> thanks to Rolf for pointing that one out!)
>>
>> If I'm trying to operate a phone, or even something old school like use
>> a biro to write on paper, or <converging with vehicles> scrape the ice
>> off the windscreen, I can't cope without gloves on.
>
>How do you operate a touch-screen phone with gloves on? Presumably you have
>those ones with conductive material in a couple of the fingertips?

I use a stylus (if it's a smartphone).

>>>>> but I don't imagine it's easy to take the right card from a wallet
>>>>> wearing gloves.
>>>>
>>>> But not too difficult to extract from a shirt pocket.
>>>
>>> …and if it's cold enough to wear gloves, that shirt pocket will be
>>> underneath at least two further layers of clothing!!
>>
>> Not really, even with an overcoat on, you can stick your hand through
>> the gap between the buttons. Extracting a wallet will be vastly more
>> difficult.
>
>All my coats for as long as I can remember have had zips, not buttons.

I've had some with zips and buttons, but most only have buttons.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t9m8rg$275hd$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:48:00 on Fri, 1 Jul
2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>On 2022-06-30 17:06:29 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> In message <t9fk3i$15rmf$3@dont-email.me>, at 19:17:06 on Tue, 28 Jun
>>2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> The fingerprint sensor on one of my phones is round the back, which
>>>> isn't where I'd naturally be grabbing the phone. On the other it's at
>>>> the bottom of the screen, which is even less involved in phone-grabbing.
>>> Someone else in this thread has posted that the fingerprint sensor
>>>on the
>>> rear is exactly where his finger naturally falls, so perhaps some people
>>> hold phones differently?
>> I hold mine by the edges, not the body.
>
>If I'm just looking at the phone rather than interacting with it, I
>tend to old it with my thumb up the right hand side and the last three
>fingers on the left hand side, with the forefinger at the top left
>corner (I'm right handed). That puts my thumb naturally right on the
>lock button and the forefinger within very easy reach of the volume
>buttons and mute switch, so I would assume that is the holding position
>the phone designers anticipate users to adopt. When I'm actualy
>interacting with the phone I tend to shift my little finger to the
>bottom edge to support it, and rest the body of the phone on my index
>finger, freeing up my thumb to interact with the screen.
>
>>> I switched off fingerprint for unlock on my iPhone, because my thumb
>>>naturally fell on the home button

>> That's at the front, I think.
>>
>>> when getting it out of my pocket, and it always unlocked; when often
>>>I didn't want it unlocked, eg just to check time or notifications.
>>>
>>>>> I can't comment knowledgeably on gloves as I never wear them,

>>>> You need to get out more. It's cold in Winter.
>>> Not everyone feels the cold enough to wear gloves as much as other
>>>people.

>>> It has to be *really* cold for me to wear gloves! (Unless I'm cycling,
>>> thanks to Rolf for pointing that one out!)
>> If I'm trying to operate a phone, or even something old school like
>>use a biro to write on paper, or <converging with vehicles> scrape
>>the ice off the windscreen, I can't cope without gloves on.
>
>All of these issues are why phone manufacturers have shifted to facial
>features rather than fingerprints for unlocking. It was a great
>solution right up until we all starting wearing masks.

I've not tried that yet, but I suspect the glasses and beanie hat might
confuse it.
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 11 Jul 2022 13:15:23 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <t9m8rg$275hd$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:48:00 on Fri, 1 Jul
>2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>On 2022-06-30 17:06:29 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>
>>> In message <t9fk3i$15rmf$3@dont-email.me>, at 19:17:06 on Tue, 28 Jun
>>>2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> The fingerprint sensor on one of my phones is round the back, which
>>>>> isn't where I'd naturally be grabbing the phone. On the other it's at
>>>>> the bottom of the screen, which is even less involved in phone-grabbing.
>>>> Someone else in this thread has posted that the fingerprint sensor
>>>>on the
>>>> rear is exactly where his finger naturally falls, so perhaps some people
>>>> hold phones differently?
>>> I hold mine by the edges, not the body.
>>
>>If I'm just looking at the phone rather than interacting with it, I
>>tend to old it with my thumb up the right hand side and the last three
>>fingers on the left hand side, with the forefinger at the top left
>>corner (I'm right handed). That puts my thumb naturally right on the
>>lock button and the forefinger within very easy reach of the volume
>>buttons and mute switch, so I would assume that is the holding position
>>the phone designers anticipate users to adopt. When I'm actualy
>>interacting with the phone I tend to shift my little finger to the
>>bottom edge to support it, and rest the body of the phone on my index
>>finger, freeing up my thumb to interact with the screen.
>>
>>>> I switched off fingerprint for unlock on my iPhone, because my thumb
>>>>naturally fell on the home button
>
>>> That's at the front, I think.
>>>
>>>> when getting it out of my pocket, and it always unlocked; when often
>>>>I didn't want it unlocked, eg just to check time or notifications.
>>>>
>>>>>> I can't comment knowledgeably on gloves as I never wear them,
>
>>>>> You need to get out more. It's cold in Winter.
>>>> Not everyone feels the cold enough to wear gloves as much as other
>>>>people.
>
>>>> It has to be *really* cold for me to wear gloves! (Unless I'm cycling,
>>>> thanks to Rolf for pointing that one out!)
>>> If I'm trying to operate a phone, or even something old school like
>>>use a biro to write on paper, or <converging with vehicles> scrape
>>>the ice off the windscreen, I can't cope without gloves on.
>>
>>All of these issues are why phone manufacturers have shifted to facial
>>features rather than fingerprints for unlocking. It was a great
>>solution right up until we all starting wearing masks.
>
>I've not tried that yet, but I suspect the glasses and beanie hat might
>confuse it.

No, they cope fine with glasses, and most hats. But masks stop them dead.

In message <t9kf8m$1um7n$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:25:10 on Thu, 30 Jun
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t9jg5j$1nibg$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:34:27 on Thu, 30 Jun
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t9ffsg$15bi9$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:05:04 on Tue, 28 Jun
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> On 28/06/2022 08:09, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In any event, regular commuters on the tube are probably die-hard
>>>>>>> yuppie iPhone users
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unless those are all working from home (possibly having decamped to a
>>>>>> house in the country), leaving plebs and key workers to use London
>>>>>> transport...
>>>>>
>>>>> About half of active phone users in the UK use iPhones. Can’t just be
>>>>> yuppies or cake eaters.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://cybercrew.uk/blog/iphone-sales-statistics-uk/
>>>>>
>>>>> “iOS had the largest market share of mobile operating systems in
>>>>>the UK in June 2021
>>>>>
>>>>> iOS beat Android with just under 50%. In the United Kingdom, iOS and
>>>>> Android account for more than 99% of the total market share for mobile
>>>>> operating systems.”
>>>>>
>>>>> So around half the population of phone users can use express mode. (Well
>>>>> probably slightly less as I don’t think some older iPhones have the
>>>>> necessary hardware)
>>>>
>>>> And that half won't be spread evenly around the country, it'll be
>>>> concentrated in places like London where its secondary purpose as a
>>>> fashion accessory will also be more in demand.
>>>
>>> And your evidence for what appears to be pure prejudice is what?
>>
>> An understanding of the demographics of those who buy iPhones. It's
>> always been a topic of discussion in the industry because worldwide the
>> share is 70:30 in favour of android, and marketing/sales people want to
>> know why the UK is different.
>
>Evidence free then.

Is the 70:30 versus 50:50 evidence-free?

>Let’s keep this discussion to the UK as you’ve been asserting
>it’s mainly city dwelling yuppies that have iPhones.

That's not quite what I said. It's the penetration (percentage
deployment) which is going to be higher in London. Particularly as a
broader demographic uses public transport in London than the regions.

>In terms of actual evidence I’ve conducted a straw poll of my outgoing
>messages. On an iPhone they are coded green for ones that go as SMS (ie
>Android recipients) and blue for Apple users (sent by iMessage) My data
>indicates that the 50:50 split is about right. Apple users seem to be
>represented evenly across social class, the split persisting across trades
>people and cleaners as well as professionals. In fact all the cleaners to
>my office are iPhone users. Again the split persists into rural Scottish
>Borders. I see no evidence to support Roland’s claims.

I doubt you have much data about how many of those people in the regions
have access to (or even use) express-pay enabled public transport.

>Put simply, about half of active UK phone users are iPhone users. So it’s
>quite legitimate for public transport systems to support the express
>payment mode.

Did I say it wasn't legitimate? But why do they turn their back on the
other half of phone owners.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t9jut6$1sdpd$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:45:58 on Thu, 30 Jun
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 30/06/2022 10:10, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t9h6tc$1d3v3$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:44:12 on Wed, 29 Jun
>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> I still find an analogue display more useful than a digital readout
>>>when I just want to know the approximate time. And the hands glow in
>>>the dark!

>> My Android smart watch has several "clock faces" to choose from,
>>most of which are 'analogue'. And of course it's backlit.
>
>And needs charging frequently, haven't had to physically wind my watch
>since I had it. And I can read it in bright sunshine.

We'll convert you to using cash, next. You can read that in bright
sunshine, and there's battery to charge up.

My smart watch battery lasts about a week, which is longer than most of
the rechargeable gadgets I'm surrounded with.
--
Roland Perry