Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> On 02/02/2022 19:36, Chris Green wrote:
> >
> > Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >> It's this
> >> potential risk for major catastrophe that is so concerning about
> >> nuclear, and then when you start to think about all the nuclear waste in
> >> deteriorating containment at Sellafield, the lack of indigenous sources
> >> of suitable fuel, and that many major new nuclear builds are way over
> >> budget and/or way behind schedule, and that new nuclear's feed-in-tariff
> >> is about double the next most expensive generating method, you come to
> >> ask: "Do we need this white elephant?"
> >>
> > Hydro-electric power also has the potential for huge catastrphic
> > failures but no one seems to think that hydro-electric is a bad idea.
> > Good design is what's needed for all types of power. And, apart from
> > Chernobyl, what nuclear power 'disaasters' have had 'widespread
> > long-lasting damage'?
>
> How could you forget Fukushima?
>
I think one peson was killed by the nuclear accident, very little
"widespread damage" had anything whatsoever to do with the nuclear
accident.

--
Chris Green
·

williamwright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:
> On 02/02/2022 12:41, Jim Lesurf wrote:
>> In article <a9hnci-lf7n1.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net>
>> wrote:
>>> If we had invested in (very clean and very safe) nuclear power we
>>> wouldn't have such deep gaps to fill.
>>
>> IF it had been "very clean and very safe" returns in reality as FALSE.
>>
>> Unless, perhaps you mean fusion. Which still remains in prospect.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>
> How many deaths per GWh from generation by solid fuel, wind turbines,
> versus nuclear? Living in what used to be a coal mining area I'm all too
> well aware of the deaths from mining.
>
> Bill
>

Traditional forms of energy production kill working class people. A nuclear
accident can kill middle class people. Guess which ones generate the
protest movements?

In article <59b49df97abob@sick-of-spam.invalid>,
Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <steolb$s5o$1@dont-email.me>,
> Indy Jess John <bathwatchdog@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote:

> > That reminds me of a training course I attended many years ago,
> > where we stayed overnight in the hotel where the course was held.

> > One person on the course considered himself a whisky connoisseur
> > and was delighted in the range available in the hotel bar. So he
> > had several, trying a lot of the ones he had never tried before.

> > When the barman wanted to close the bar and asked everyone who
> > wanted a final drink to order them now, I joined the group wanting
> > a nightcap, and heard connoisseur asking the barman which whisky
> > would be worth trying as his last for the night. The barman with
> > a completely straight face said "I suggest you choose the
> > cheapest, because after what you have had so far this evening,
> > they will all taste the same".

> In August 1987 my employer instructed me to attend a meeting in
> Edinburgh. I had a few days notice and people gave me a shopping list
> for things to bring back for them. Something called 'Bridies' was it?
> And a few other things.

> Anyway, flew out of Birmingham early morning arrived not long
> afterwards and went to the meeting. It lasted a couple of hours and
> to be honest I thought it a waste of time. As we departed I said the
> host that I liked some whiskey and whilst there I'd like to buy
> something he recommended.

WHISKY

> "What do you like", he asked.
> "Glenmorangie is my favourite" I said.

> "You won't do any better than that" he said. Disappointment or what
> and I'm sure he's not correct.

> Did all the shopping and home for tea.

> Such a waste of money and time.

> Bob.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

"charles" <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote in message
news:59b40914f1charles@candehope.me.uk...
> In article <stbok2$ebn$1@dont-email.me>,
> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 01/02/2022 15:35, Tweed wrote:
>> > Never mind all that. Huge numbers of people don't have the luxury of
>> > off
>> > street parking to get charged up.
>
>> Wasn't there some crazy bit in the new Highway Code about running
>> charging cables over pavements! I hope they are also warned to get some
>> insurance for the claims by people tripping over the cables.
>
>
>
>> I have been forecasting this!
>> "Thefts of electric car charging cables could be the next crime wave to
>> sweep Britain's streets in the wake of catalytic converter raids"
>
> Although mine is locked into the car, a good cutter would leave the plug
> behind. Tell them to cut the cable before unplugging from the charge
> oint.

What supply voltage is typically used between the charging station and the
car? Presumably to get a high charging rate, they need a high voltage to
keep the current down so the cable can be made thin enough to coil it up.

So there could be some nice high-voltage shocks for people who try to steal
charging cables by cutting them.

"Java Jive" <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:stbk64$9pg$1@dont-email.me...
> With a few exceptions, I most of the perhaps twenty or so jobs I have ever
> done, including summer holiday jobs, etc, have involved commuting by foot
> or on public transport, I can only remember three that I had to commute by
> car.

Of the places I've worked, two (on nearby sites in the same town) needed a
long (eg 1 hour) walk - I've done it very occasionally when the road hasn't
been cleared of snow or once when my car broke down. There was a railway
station about 15 minutes walk from home in the wrong direction, then walk of
about 30 minutes from the other station to the office.

The office for the third was about 30 minutes walk - I've done it
occasionally in nice weather when I fancied a it of fresh air.

I could have cycled to the third job the third job where the journey was
mostly along 30 mph residential or business park streets and where I had a
house with a garage to keep the bike - don't know why I never did. The
previous house (first two jobs) had no garage and nowhere that I could
padlock a bike to or keep it under cover, so I'd have had to keep it in the
living room - so I didn't have a bike there!

On 02/02/2022 21:15, charles wrote:
>> Anyway, flew out of Birmingham early morning arrived not long
>> afterwards and went to the meeting. It lasted a couple of hours and
>> to be honest I thought it a waste of time. As we departed I said the
>> host that I liked some whiskey and whilst there I'd like to buy
>> something he recommended.
> WHISKY
>

He was so pissed he thought he was in Dublin.

Bill

On 02/02/2022 20:49, Chris Green wrote:
>
> Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> On 02/02/2022 19:36, Chris Green wrote:
>>>
>>> Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It's this
>>>> potential risk for major catastrophe that is so concerning about
>>>> nuclear, and then when you start to think about all the nuclear waste in
>>>> deteriorating containment at Sellafield, the lack of indigenous sources
>>>> of suitable fuel, and that many major new nuclear builds are way over
>>>> budget and/or way behind schedule, and that new nuclear's feed-in-tariff
>>>> is about double the next most expensive generating method, you come to
>>>> ask: "Do we need this white elephant?"
>>>>
>>> Hydro-electric power also has the potential for huge catastrphic
>>> failures but no one seems to think that hydro-electric is a bad idea.
>>> Good design is what's needed for all types of power. And, apart from
>>> Chernobyl, what nuclear power 'disaasters' have had 'widespread
>>> long-lasting damage'?
>>
>> How could you forget Fukushima?
>
> I think one peson was killed by the nuclear accident, very little
> "widespread damage" had anything whatsoever to do with the nuclear
> accident.

AFAICR, there was significant radiation leakage, some of it through
groundwater.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 02/02/2022 20:37, charles wrote:
>
> In article <stelum$1lb$2@dont-email.me>, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
> wrote:
>>
>> On 02/02/2022 18:38, MB wrote:
>>>
>>> I was with someone who considered himself a whisky connoisseur and was
>>> trying to identify a single malt, he was convinced it was one
>>> particular one so I just had a sniff of it and compared with the one
>>> that he thought it was. I could tell straight away that it was not the
>>> same but he had had a few drams which of course had killed any sense
>>> of taste.
>>
>> You've told us this story before, and I've answered before that there is
>> indeed a wide variety of tastes of single malts.
>
> Since MB lives in the Highlands, he probably knows that.

The implication from his previous post was that there wasn't a wide
range of tastes.

And I'm not sure that he does live in the Highlands.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 02/02/2022 20:38, williamwright wrote:
>
> On 02/02/2022 12:42, Jim Lesurf wrote:
>>
>> Tracable source for this mysteriously convenient "someone"?
>
> It's an apocryphal tile

Assuming that you meant to type 'tale', That was Jim's point.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

In article <steslv$dbk$1@dont-email.me>, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "charles" <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote in message
> news:59b40914f1charles@candehope.me.uk...
> > In article <stbok2$ebn$1@dont-email.me>, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> >> On 01/02/2022 15:35, Tweed wrote:
> >> > Never mind all that. Huge numbers of people don't have the luxury of
> >> > off street parking to get charged up.
> >
> >> Wasn't there some crazy bit in the new Highway Code about running
> >> charging cables over pavements! I hope they are also warned to get
> >> some insurance for the claims by people tripping over the cables.
> >
> >
> >
> >> I have been forecasting this! "Thefts of electric car charging cables
> >> could be the next crime wave to sweep Britain's streets in the wake of
> >> catalytic converter raids"
> >
> > Although mine is locked into the car, a good cutter would leave the
> > plug behind. Tell them to cut the cable before unplugging from the
> > charge oint.

> What supply voltage is typically used between the charging station and
> the car? Presumably to get a high charging rate, they need a high
> voltage to keep the current down so the cable can be made thin enough to
> coil it up.

The homes ones will use mains voltage.

> So there could be some nice high-voltage shocks for people who try to
> steal charging cables by cutting them.

Yes ;-)

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> On 02/02/2022 20:49, Chris Green wrote:
> >
> > Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 02/02/2022 19:36, Chris Green wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> It's this
> >>>> potential risk for major catastrophe that is so concerning about
> >>>> nuclear, and then when you start to think about all the nuclear waste in
> >>>> deteriorating containment at Sellafield, the lack of indigenous sources
> >>>> of suitable fuel, and that many major new nuclear builds are way over
> >>>> budget and/or way behind schedule, and that new nuclear's feed-in-tariff
> >>>> is about double the next most expensive generating method, you come to
> >>>> ask: "Do we need this white elephant?"
> >>>>
> >>> Hydro-electric power also has the potential for huge catastrphic
> >>> failures but no one seems to think that hydro-electric is a bad idea.
> >>> Good design is what's needed for all types of power. And, apart from
> >>> Chernobyl, what nuclear power 'disaasters' have had 'widespread
> >>> long-lasting damage'?
> >>
> >> How could you forget Fukushima?
> >
> > I think one peson was killed by the nuclear accident, very little
> > "widespread damage" had anything whatsoever to do with the nuclear
> > accident.
>
> AFAICR, there was significant radiation leakage, some of it through
> groundwater.
>
The leakage was actually pretty trivial and the level of radiation
there is very little above normal background levels. The Japanese
authorities overdid the precautions considerably.

--
Chris Green
·

On 02/02/2022 21:56, Chris Green wrote:
>
> Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> On 02/02/2022 20:49, Chris Green wrote:
>>>
>>> Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> How could you forget Fukushima?
>>>
>>> I think one peson was killed by the nuclear accident, very little
>>> "widespread damage" had anything whatsoever to do with the nuclear
>>> accident.
>>
>> AFAICR, there was significant radiation leakage, some of it through
>> groundwater.
>
> The leakage was actually pretty trivial and the level of radiation
> there is very little above normal background levels. The Japanese
> authorities overdid the precautions considerably.

The World Nuclear Association say rather different:

https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/safety-and-security/safety-of-plants/fukushima-daiichi-accident.aspx

Fukushima Daiichi Accident

Following a major earthquake, a 15-metre tsunami disabled the power
supply and cooling of three Fukushima Daiichi reactors, causing a
nuclear accident beginning on 11 March 2011. All three cores largely
melted in the first three days.

The accident was rated level 7 on the International Nuclear and
Radiological Event Scale, due to high radioactive releases over days 4
to 6, eventually a total of some 940 PBq (I-131 eq).

All four Fukushima Daiichi reactors were written off due to damage
in the accident – 2719 MWe net.

After two weeks, the three reactors (units 1-3) were stable with
water addition and by July they were being cooled with recycled water
from the new treatment plant. Official 'cold shutdown condition' was
announced in mid-December.

Apart from cooling, the basic ongoing task was to prevent release
of radioactive materials, particularly in contaminated water leaked from
the three units. This task became newsworthy in August 2013.

There have been no deaths or cases of radiation sickness from the
nuclear accident, but over 100,000 people were evacuated from their
homes as a preventative measure. Government nervousness has delayed the
return of many.

Official figures show that there have been 2313 disaster-related
deaths among evacuees from Fukushima prefecture. Disaster-related deaths
are in addition to the about 19,500 that were killed by the earthquake
or tsunami.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 02/02/2022 19:36, Chris Green wrote:
> Hydro-electric power also has the potential for huge catastrphic
> failures but no one seems to think that hydro-electric is a bad idea.
> Good design is what's needed for all types of power. And, apart from
> Chernobyl, what nuclear power 'disaasters' have had 'widespread
> long-lasting damage'?

There are a surprising number of deaths "caused" by hydro-electricity,
mainly drownings.

But there is some sort of rule where the number of people who be
affected by a dam failure is estimated. If that number increases
because a new housing estate or town has been built then the owner of
the dam has to increase protection, often by raising the height of the dam.

On 02/02/2022 20:13, Indy Jess John wrote:
> The barman with a completely straight
> face said "I suggest you choose the cheapest, because after what you
> have had so far this evening, they will all taste the same".

Very true but get a room full of people who think they are experts and
they will probably buy the most expensive that they can afford.

On 02/02/2022 21:11, NY wrote:
> So there could be some nice high-voltage shocks for people who try to steal
> charging cables by cutting them.

I am sure they will soon learn to get insulated cutters.

On 02/02/2022 23:20, MB wrote:
> On 02/02/2022 19:36, Chris Green wrote:
>> Hydro-electric power also has the potential for huge catastrophic
>> failures but no one seems to think that hydro-electric is a bad idea.
>> Good design is what's needed for all types of power. And, apart from
>> Chernobyl, what nuclear power 'disaasters' have had 'widespread
>> long-lasting damage'?
>
>
> There are a surprising number of deaths "caused" by hydro-electricity,
> mainly drownings.
>
> But there is some sort of rule where the number of people who be
> affected by a dam failure is estimated. If that number increases
> because a new housing estate or town has been built then the owner of
> the dam has to increase protection, often by raising the height of the dam.

Surely the higher the dam the greater the water pressure behind it and
the higher the probability of dam failure?

Jim

On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 20:38:17 +0000, williamwright
<wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:

>On 02/02/2022 12:42, Jim Lesurf wrote:
>
>>> The best example I remember was someone who said that if you go to the
>>> appropriate authorities and ask for a grant to study the breeding habits
>>> of squirrels in South East England then you will be unlikely to get
>>> anything. But ask for a grant to study the effect of "global warming"
>>> on the breeding habits of squirrels in South East England then they will
>>> be queuing up to give you money.
>>
>> Tracable source for this mysteriously convenient "someone"?
>>
>> Jim
>>
>
>It's an apocryphal tile intended to illustrate a valid point. Would you
>ask for attribution for the story of the boy who cried wolf, or the
>Parable of the Good Samaritan?
>

If it is not in PE he surely would.

--
brightside S9

On 02/02/2022 21:30, NY wrote:
> Of the places I've worked, two (on nearby sites in the same town) needed a
> long (eg 1 hour) walk - I've done it very occasionally when the road hasn't
> been cleared of snow or once when my car broke down. There was a railway
> station about 15 minutes walk from home in the wrong direction, then
> walk of
> about 30 minutes from the other station to the office.
>
> The office for the third was about 30 minutes walk - I've done it
> occasionally in nice weather when I fancied a it of fresh air.
>
> I could have cycled to the third job the third job where the journey was
> mostly along 30 mph residential or business park streets and where I had
> a house with a garage to keep the bike - don't know why I never did. The
> previous house (first two jobs) had no garage and nowhere that I could
> padlock a bike to or keep it under cover, so I'd have had to keep it in
> the living room - so I didn't have a bike there!

As soon as I'd passed my test I drove to school.
I drove to the job I had between school and college.
I drove to college.
I drove to all three of the schools college sent me to.
I drove to the school where I was a teacher.
I drove to the in-service weekend seminars.
I drove to the Open University summer school.
I drove everywhere during my forty years of self-employment.
I drove on every holiday and day trip.
I drive to the homes of my children.
I drive to the shops.
I drive to the homes of the people I help.
I drive to the various hospitals and clinics.
I drive to the funerals of my friends.
Presumably I won't be expected to drive when it's my turn to go to the
crem. It'll make a pleasant change.

Bill

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 02/02/2022 21:11, NY wrote:
>> So there could be some nice high-voltage shocks for people who try to steal
>> charging cables by cutting them.
>
> I am sure they will soon learn to get insulated cutters.
>

Live railway trackside cables get nicked. Insulated gloves and safety
glasses are all that’s needed to use some long handled bolt cutters to cut
the cable.

I also notice that the Surrey Comet proudly says that some person called
Poppy is their Facebook content editor, who it seems just adds some posts
about a local bit of news together in some random repeating way ending with
a comment from the emergency services. If that is journalism then I'm a pet
rock.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Roderick Stewart" <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9v7avg1ef9f88r49fb4lfb7pcojoug7hc2@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 16:50:46 +0000, John Hall
> <john_nospam@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <ua18vgpk55kg8nq8dr63id9ul797v2i3uo@4ax.com>, Scott
>><newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> writes
>>>On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 12:50:04 +0000, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 28/01/2022 08:49, Mark Carver wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> What an extraordinary myopic statement. You've clearly never listened
>>>>> to
>>>>> James O'Brien or Eddie Mair on LBC !
>>>>
>>>>No, I don't listen to talk radio, because I'm far too busy to allow
>>>>myself to be distracted by other people talking
>>>
>>>Mother of a friend of mine once declared, 'I can honestly say I have
>>>never read a book in my life'. I am sure you would get on well.
>>
>>My sister-in-law's niece once said that in my hearing. She seemed to be
>>proud of it. I was rather shocked, but thought it better not to say
>>anything.
>
> I can honestly say I've never subscribed to Twitter. I wonder how long
> it will be possible to admit to being proud of that? The rambling
> subliterate pronouncements typical of its users appear to be something
> of a mainstay of some news outlets, which simply print screeds of it
> unedited on their websites, as if it were some sort of official policy
> or holy writ. Even the name doesn't sound serious.
>
> Rod.

In article <j60bkdF4o8iU2@mid.individual.net>,
williamwright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:
> On 02/02/2022 21:15, charles wrote:

> > WHISKY

> He was so pissed he thought he was in Dublin.

:-)

I'm not the worlds best at spelling quite correct.

There are some words that I've read many times but never written even
once in my life, about 5 or 6 years ago I wrote 'sausage' for the
first time and I'm sure I've never written Whisky before either. Very
likely to spell incorrectly words I've never written.

Strange but true.

Bob.

Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> The World Nuclear Association say rather different:
>
> https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/safety-and-security/safety-of-plants/fukushima-daiichi-accident.aspx
>
[snip some preamble]
>
> Apart from cooling, the basic ongoing task was to prevent release
> of radioactive materials, particularly in contaminated water leaked from
> the three units. This task became newsworthy in August 2013.
>
> There have been no deaths or cases of radiation sickness from the
> nuclear accident, but over 100,000 people were evacuated from their
> homes as a preventative measure. Government nervousness has delayed the
> return of many.
>
> Official figures show that there have been 2313 disaster-related
> deaths among evacuees from Fukushima prefecture. Disaster-related deaths
> are in addition to the about 19,500 that were killed by the earthquake
> or tsunami.
>

Isn't that pretty much exactly what I said. No deaths, and the
radioactive leakage was contained. ... and the authoritoes (with
hindsight) overreacted somewhat by evacuating 100000 people.

--
Chris Green
·

Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <j60bkdF4o8iU2@mid.individual.net>,
> williamwright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:
> > On 02/02/2022 21:15, charles wrote:
>
> > > WHISKY
>
>
> > He was so pissed he thought he was in Dublin.
>
> :-)
>
> I'm not the worlds best at spelling quite correct.
>
It's not a mis-spelling, whiskey is Irish whiskey, whisky is Scotch
whisky (though pedants might say it should be just Scotch).

--
Chris Green
·

"MB" <MB@nospam.net> wrote in message news:stf43t$kni$3@dont-email.me...
> On 02/02/2022 21:11, NY wrote:
>> So there could be some nice high-voltage shocks for people who try to
>> steal
>> charging cables by cutting them.
>
> I am sure they will soon learn to get insulated cutters.

If the car is charging, there will be a large current flowing so there will
be a significant arc as the wires separate, and then as the cutters short
the supply wires there will be an even higher current until the over-current
circuit breaker kick in. Should be impressive. I don't think I'll try it :-(

"MB" <MB@nospam.net> wrote in message news:stf3n2$kni$2@dont-email.me...
> On 02/02/2022 20:13, Indy Jess John wrote:
>> The barman with a completely straight
>> face said "I suggest you choose the cheapest, because after what you
>> have had so far this evening, they will all taste the same".
>
> Very true but get a room full of people who think they are experts and
> they will probably buy the most expensive that they can afford.

That brings back memories of going to Dublin with a few work colleagues for
a meeting the following day. It was a Sunday and the pubs were open,
something of a novelty because in the UK they'd have been closed at that
time (this was about 30 years ago). So we "had" to go for a drink, and we
"had" to compare the three stouts that they had on draught: Guinness,
Mackeson and Beamish. The first pint was Guinness: very nice, very very
nice. Mackesons - yes, that was good too, as was the Beamish. But how did
they compare with the Guinness? Better try that again. By then we'd
forgotten the Mackeson, so we had to have a comparison point of that, and
likewise for Beamish. By then we were at the stage of "they're all very
good - what the hell, how can you ever say one was better than the others".
It was after that, one our walk back from the pub to the hotel, that we saw
angels and leprechauns - makes a change from pink elephants. Actually, this
wasn't alcohol-fuelled hallucinations: the angel was a little girl on her
way from confirmation class, in a white "mini-wedding-dress", and the
leprechaun was a lad going (presumably) to a fancy-dress party. I have to
report now that a stout hangover is just as bad as one from any other beer,
with the added effect of causing black poo.

As regards "they will all taste the same" for whisk(e)y and wine, that
reminds me of a Dick Francis novel in which a restaurant was passing off
cheap blended wine and cheap blended whisky (I think it was Scotch rather
than Irish whiskey) as the expensive brands by re-bottling it and adding
suitable labels. The scam worked because most people would have the wine
with a meal (and maybe they would be smoking, since it was allowed at that
time) and they'd have the whisky afterwards, and it takes a brave person to
complain to the manager that the Glenfiddich that they've seen the barman
dispense from a Glenfiddich bottle didn't taste quite right.