In article <skdnci-08um1.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net>
wrote:
> Wind and solar *need* almost 100% backup with something that can come on
> line when there's no sun (a good 70% to 80% of the time for much of the
> year in the UK) and no wind which happens not infrequently (like several
> days earlier in January).

> So what 'home grown energy' is going to do the 'gap filling'?

HVDC interconnectors help deal with that for the people linked togther. As
does having a wide area for you sources.

In addition, people are already expecting to add hydrogen generation,
storage, distribuition and use.

Your 'no wind' assumption that it is "not infrequent" needs also to take
into account the areas becoming available for wind capture as per an
earlier posting.

Plus also wave and 'tidal'.

So the reality is likely to be rather better than your backward-looking
assumptions.

Jim

--
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In article <statpo$dug$1@dont-email.me>, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> Do we in the UK have enough generating capacity to support the change
> from petrol/diesel to electric cars and the gradual change from gas/oil
> for central heating to electric heating via ground source? (Ground
> source is fugly: I saw a house down the road from us which was having
> it fitted and there are two enormous boxes about 10 feet square mounted
> on the wall of the bungalow which cover most of the end wall of the
> house. It is also eggs-in-one-basket: if the power fails, you are
> utterly buggered for heating. At least gas continues to power our Aga
> (which heats the kitchen) and we have a wood-burning stove with several
> years of wood from trees that I have cut down or pruned, so we have
> some fall-back if the power goes off.

Fairly obviously, we don't *currently* have enough alternative power
generation to switch off all our coal/oil/gas burning at 6 o/clock today
and still have enough power for our requirements.

But people really do need to wake up to what is coming if we make the right
choices and plan ahead. e.g

http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/temp/ScotsPower.png

The above shows the area that - under International Law and Treaties -
Scotland has available for power generation from wind, wave, tidal, etc,
power. It is, erm, quite large. And a lot of it is generally quite windy.
(As many people hit by the storms of the last few days - another coming
this afternoon - can testify.[1])

And, yes, if you read sources like IEEE Spectrum you'll have seen examples
of wind turbines, etc, designed to work over such areas of sea, etc.
Engineers are getting on with the job whilst politicians run about like
headless chickens and the old oil/gas/coal interests pump out as much
disinformation as they do CO2.

The problem is with the latter and the vested interests that gain wealth
and power from fossil. Not the lack of our ability to be able to change IF
we face up to it.

And that's not even considering things like Z-pinch... :-)

Jim

[1] Quite a number of people in Scotland have lost power recently (and
currently). But the problem here isn't house batteries being finite. It is
the way power distribution has been allowed to continue via overhead cable
rather than buried. i.e. cheaper for the companies as an initial
investment. Save money in the long run, but drops the payback initially for
the people who run and own the companies.

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
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On 01/02/2022 15:30, Bob Latham wrote:
>
> In a similar manner the government has planned for 1% growth in
> electricity generation in the UK by 2025 and under 10% by 2030. Does
> it want power cuts or more imports?

Where is your *EVIDENCE* for this claim?

> Hardly enough growth in power there to cope with the demand of
> illegal immigrants, let alone heat pumps and electric cars. They're
> living in a fantasy world, a false utopia.

Typically unpleasant bigotry - I wonder how much energy you waste each
day running equipment on which to post such crap?

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 01/02/2022 15:43, Tweed wrote:
>
> Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> With a few exceptions, I ...

think

>> ... most of the perhaps twenty or so jobs I have
>> ever done, including summer holiday jobs, etc, have involved commuting
>> by foot or on public transport, I can only remember three that I had to
>> commute by car. One of the things that the pandemic has proved,
>> entirely incidentally, is that nowadays the technology exists to allow a
>> great many people to work from home, at least more often, sometimes on a
>> semi-permanent basis. Of course there are difficulties involved with
>> this. Some staff report being 'neglected' or 'forgotten about' and fear
>> being passed over for promotion if they're not seen at the office
>> enough, and overcoming such difficulties will require a change in
>> management style, and, if I know anything about British management at
>> all, that will be a sticking point.
>
> Very job dependent though. Bit difficult if you are a surgeon, as my son
> is. Add in shift work so you might be keeping irregular hours - car
> charging becomes hard.

Yes, not everyone can work from home, and of those, not everyone can
commute by public transport. But, as someone has already said in other
words in this thread, the impossibility of obtaining perfection should
not be allowed to prevent making real improvements for the sake of their
own benefits.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 01/02/2022 14:17, charles wrote:
> Our local Waitrose ran out of Orkney Oatcakes last week

I think you will survive, not as if they have run out of Highland Park
(I hope).

On 01/02/2022 15:10, NY wrote:
> I suppose you could argue that the flooding in York is due to excessive rain
> in the northern Dales which is due to climate change.

Was the flooding in the North Yorkshire Dales in 1882 also "climate change"?

And the storm all over Yorkshire in 1886?

And the flooding in Lancashire and Yorkshire in 1866?

Must have been all those cars.

On 01/02/2022 15:35, Tweed wrote:
> Never mind all that. Huge numbers of people don’t have the luxury of off
> street parking to get charged up.

Wasn't there some crazy bit in the new Highway Code about running
charging cables over pavements! I hope they are also warned to get some
insurance for the claims by people tripping over the cables.

I have been forecasting this!
"Thefts of electric car charging cables could be the next crime wave to
sweep Britain's streets in the wake of catalytic converter raids"

In article <stbnmu$5t1$1@dont-email.me>,
MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 01/02/2022 14:17, charles wrote:
> > Our local Waitrose ran out of Orkney Oatcakes last week

> I think you will survive, not as if they have run out of Highland Park
> (I hope).

I do have one unopened bottle - a pressie for providing PA for a charity
Christmas event.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

In article <stbok2$ebn$1@dont-email.me>,
MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 01/02/2022 15:35, Tweed wrote:
> > Never mind all that. Huge numbers of people don‘t have the luxury of off
> > street parking to get charged up.

> Wasn't there some crazy bit in the new Highway Code about running
> charging cables over pavements! I hope they are also warned to get some
> insurance for the claims by people tripping over the cables.

> I have been forecasting this!
> "Thefts of electric car charging cables could be the next crime wave to
> sweep Britain's streets in the wake of catalytic converter raids"

Although mine is locked into the car, a good cutter would leave the plug
behind. Tell them to cut the cable before unplugging from the charge oint.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 01/02/2022 17:34, charles wrote:
> I do have one unopened bottle - a pressie for providing PA for a charity
> Christmas event.

I remember Roy telling me of someone who would open a new bottle and
throw the top away with "we won't be needing that again"

In article <stbrj4$5om$2@dont-email.me>,
MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 01/02/2022 17:34, charles wrote:
> > I do have one unopened bottle - a pressie for providing PA for a charity
> > Christmas event.

> I remember Roy telling me of someone who would open a new bottle and
> throw the top away with "we won't be needing that again"

makes sense

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Jim Lesurf <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <statpo$dug$1@dont-email.me>, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> > Do we in the UK have enough generating capacity to support the change
> > from petrol/diesel to electric cars and the gradual change from gas/oil
> > for central heating to electric heating via ground source? (Ground
> > source is fugly: I saw a house down the road from us which was having
> > it fitted and there are two enormous boxes about 10 feet square mounted
> > on the wall of the bungalow which cover most of the end wall of the
> > house. It is also eggs-in-one-basket: if the power fails, you are
> > utterly buggered for heating. At least gas continues to power our Aga
> > (which heats the kitchen) and we have a wood-burning stove with several
> > years of wood from trees that I have cut down or pruned, so we have
> > some fall-back if the power goes off.
>
> Fairly obviously, we don't *currently* have enough alternative power
> generation to switch off all our coal/oil/gas burning at 6 o/clock today
> and still have enough power for our requirements.
>
> But people really do need to wake up to what is coming if we make the right
> choices and plan ahead. e.g
>
> http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/temp/ScotsPower.png
>
> The above shows the area that - under International Law and Treaties -
> Scotland has available for power generation from wind, wave, tidal, etc,
> power. It is, erm, quite large. And a lot of it is generally quite windy.
> (As many people hit by the storms of the last few days - another coming
> this afternoon - can testify.[1])
>
.... and a lot of it is quite beautiful!

--
Chris Green
·

Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> >> Huge queues of lorries at the channel ports,
> >
> > Yes, that's called EU spite from our friends and partners across the
> > channel.
>
> It's the EU's job to look after it's own interests, not ours.
>
We were in the EU once!

Strangely enough when we left we left the 'self interest' of the EU.

--
Chris Green
·

Jim Lesurf <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <skdnci-08um1.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net>
> wrote:
> > Wind and solar *need* almost 100% backup with something that can come on
> > line when there's no sun (a good 70% to 80% of the time for much of the
> > year in the UK) and no wind which happens not infrequently (like several
> > days earlier in January).
>
> > So what 'home grown energy' is going to do the 'gap filling'?
>
> HVDC interconnectors help deal with that for the people linked togther. As
> does having a wide area for you sources.
>
That's another cost of wind/solar that is rarely directly accounted
for, nor its environmental damage. Distribution costs are *way*
higher when the power has to be moved between lots of small
'generators' and the consumers. The HVDC interconnects are tiny so
far, very useful yes, but they're not a fundamental way of doing things.

> In addition, people are already expecting to add hydrogen generation,
> storage, distribuition and use.
>
That's as far away as fusion.

> Your 'no wind' assumption that it is "not infrequent" needs also to take
> into account the areas becoming available for wind capture as per an
> earlier posting.
>
> Plus also wave and 'tidal'.
>
Tidal???? You are joking I presume!

> So the reality is likely to be rather better than your backward-looking
> assumptions.
>
I was looking forward to the time when we realise that wind and sun
are not the best answer for the UK.

--
Chris Green
·

On 01/02/2022 12:24, charles wrote:
> I charge at 24 miles per hour on a 32A feed. That would drop to about 10
> miles per hour on a 13 A feed. 200 miles would take 20 hours!
>
Interesting you can now use 'mph' in two completely different ways !

On 01/02/2022 16:47, MB wrote:
> On 01/02/2022 15:10, NY wrote:
>> I suppose you could argue that the flooding in York is due to
>> excessive rain
>> in the northern Dales which is due to climate change.
>
> Was the flooding in the North Yorkshire Dales in 1882 also "climate
> change"?
>
> And the storm all over Yorkshire in 1886?
>
> And the flooding in Lancashire and Yorkshire in 1866?
>
> Must have been all those cars.

No, all that snow:

https://www.jbatrust.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Yorkshire-Rye-and-N-York-Moors.pdf

"A particular effect of global warming, already observed in some parts
of Britain, is the reduction in frequency and amount of snow and
consequently a reduction in severity of snowmelt flooding. Whilst
snowmelt flood runoff is uncommon in the Rye catchment, there is
historical evidence of very heavy snow and associated flooding in 1867,
1878, 1882 and most recently in February 1991. The upward trend in
winter temperatures is likely to lead to a reduced risk of snowmelt
flooding, the occurrence of a larger proportion of precipitation as
rain, a reduction in the duration and depth of snow cover and the more
frequent interruption of accumulation by melt before there is sufficient
depth to generate flooding. A reduction in snowmelt flooding might be
offset in part by an increase in flooding from winter rainfall."

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 01/02/2022 14:43, Java Jive wrote:
> On 01/02/2022 12:08, Bob Latham wrote:

>> Correct. Flooding has always happened, if it happens more these days
>> It's usually to do with river dredging not be done as it once was.
>
> Where is your *EVIDENCE* for this claim?
>
Try the River Avon.

Once upon a time the Rivers Authority was responsible for keeping the
waterways flowing, and they had a dredger called the Graf Daffodil that
chugged up and down the River Avon clearing out the silt.

Then the responsibility for the waterways was transferred to DEFRA, who
immediately sold the dredger to Holland and ignored the silting problem
because it wasn't a danger to life.

The flood plain around Keynsham floods frequently now because the river
at that area is now under half of the depth that it used to be when such
flooding was rare.

There is evidence in the form of surveys and reports and I have seen
some of them over the past 10 years but I CBA to hunt out where they got
filed, so you can either take my word for it or not as you see fit.

You will also probably have seen the news reports on TV about the major
floods on the Somerset Levels where the locals put the reason down to
DEFRA no longer being interested in dredging. That did get documented
where I could find it easily:
https://www.internetgeography.net/topics/the-somerset-levels-flood-case-study/
"There had been less dredging of the river channels on the Somerset
Levels leading up to 2014. However, as a result of this, the channels
had raised due to sediment accumulation. This reduced the capacity of
rivers to transport water, leading to flooding."

I would wager a small sum that the increased flooding in York is
similarly caused by reduced dredging.

Jim

In article <stchs3$67j$1@dont-email.me>,
Indy Jess John <bathwatchdog@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote:
> On 01/02/2022 14:43, Java Jive wrote:
> > On 01/02/2022 12:08, Bob Latham wrote:

> >> Correct. Flooding has always happened, if it happens more these days
> >> It's usually to do with river dredging not be done as it once was.
> >
> > Where is your *EVIDENCE* for this claim?
> >
> Try the River Avon.

> Once upon a time the Rivers Authority was responsible for keeping the
> waterways flowing, and they had a dredger called the Graf Daffodil that
> chugged up and down the River Avon clearing out the silt.

> Then the responsibility for the waterways was transferred to DEFRA, who
> immediately sold the dredger to Holland and ignored the silting problem
> because it wasn't a danger to life.

> The flood plain around Keynsham floods frequently now because the river
> at that area is now under half of the depth that it used to be when such
> flooding was rare.

> There is evidence in the form of surveys and reports and I have seen
> some of them over the past 10 years but I CBA to hunt out where they got
> filed, so you can either take my word for it or not as you see fit.

> You will also probably have seen the news reports on TV about the major
> floods on the Somerset Levels where the locals put the reason down to
> DEFRA no longer being interested in dredging. That did get documented
> where I could find it easily:
> https://www.internetgeography.net/topics/the-somerset-levels-flood-case-study/
> "There had been less dredging of the river channels on the Somerset
> Levels leading up to 2014. However, as a result of this, the channels
> had raised due to sediment accumulation. This reduced the capacity of
> rivers to transport water, leading to flooding."

> I would wager a small sum that the increased flooding in York is
> similarly caused by reduced dredging.

> Jim

DEFRA = Department for Elimination of Farming & Rural Activities

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 02/02/2022 11:27, Roderick Stewart wrote:

> Yes indeed. The psychology of management will be the biggest obstacle
> to working from home. They like to be able to survey all that they
> command. It makes them feel important.
>
> Rod.

As someone who has occasionally been in a management role in the past, I
can say that the overheard chatter in toilets, corridors and canteens
gave me a much better idea of what was happening and what was brewing,
than any number of reports and briefs.

If people are working from home, that aspect of office intelligence
dries up. Managers are still expected to make decisions, but the wider
background on which to base them will be missing.

Jim

On 01/02/2022 11:50, R. Mark Clayton wrote:

> The principle
principal

>town
city

>of Yorkshire is of course York and it keeps getting flooded more and
more often - still nowt to do with global warming.

The highest floods in York ever recorded were in 1625 and 1638.

Bill

On 01/02/2022 11:57, R. Mark Clayton wrote:
>> Can the wiring cope?
> Generally yes, our supply has a 100A company fuse.

That proves nothing.

Bill

williamwright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:
> On 01/02/2022 11:50, R. Mark Clayton wrote:
>
> > The principle
> principal
>
> >town
> city
>
> >of Yorkshire is of course York and it keeps getting flooded more and
> more often - still nowt to do with global warming.
>
> The highest floods in York ever recorded were in 1625 and 1638.
>
.... and while York is the county town/city I doubt if it is anything
like the principal one.

--
Chris Green
·

In article <stb62g$56q$1@dont-email.me>, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 01/02/2022 11:11, Bob Latham wrote:
> > Yes, same here. The BS almost entirely middle class lefties with an
> > agenda. When men stop believing in God they don't believe in nothing;
> > they believe in anything.

> The best example I remember was someone who said that if you go to the
> appropriate authorities and ask for a grant to study the breeding habits
> of squirrels in South East England then you will be unlikely to get
> anything. But ask for a grant to study the effect of "global warming"
> on the breeding habits of squirrels in South East England then they will
> be queuing up to give you money.

Tracable source for this mysteriously convenient "someone"?

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
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In article <a9hnci-lf7n1.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net>
wrote:
> If we had invested in (very clean and very safe) nuclear power we
> wouldn't have such deep gaps to fill.

IF it had been "very clean and very safe" returns in reality as FALSE.

Unless, perhaps you mean fusion. Which still remains in prospect.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
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In article <2uboci-lrqo1.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net>
wrote:
> > HVDC interconnectors help deal with that for the people linked
> > togther. As does having a wide area for you sources.
> >
> That's another cost of wind/solar that is rarely directly accounted for,
> nor its environmental damage. Distribution costs are *way* higher when
> the power has to be moved between lots of small 'generators' and the
> consumers.
>
But the 'distribution cost' is largely an up-front cost. And one we have to
deal with anyway to get the results to consumers. Since we need to change
from overhead pylons to underground cables anyway...

Source for your "way higher" claim?

BTW Collection can be via other means that cables.

> The HVDC interconnects are tiny so far, very useful yes, but
> they're not a fundamental way of doing things.

I guess you don't read Spectrum or an equivalent. :-)

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
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