Christ, what a dogs breakfast, Nothing works like it did.

But I have managed to get a consistent set of fonts, usable colours and
download an old fashioned icon set.

And make it use default identities. I no longer need an add-on to do the
identity managing and the extension was fucking the inbuilt method.

Anyone needing help I *might* be able to aid.

--
“Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”

H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy

Well its a complete rewrite. I would suggest using version 102. There seems
little point in updating stuff until they sort out the dodgy stuff.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"The Natural Philosopher" <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:uflur9$sced$1@dont-email.me...
> Christ, what a dogs breakfast, Nothing works like it did.
>
> But I have managed to get a consistent set of fonts, usable colours and
> download an old fashioned icon set.
>
> And make it use default identities. I no longer need an add-on to do the
> identity managing and the extension was fucking the inbuilt method.
>
> Anyone needing help I *might* be able to aid.
>
> --
> "Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy."
>
> H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Christ, what a dogs breakfast, Nothing works like it did.
>
> Anyone needing  help I *might* be able to aid.

Anyone needing help, look at messages in a.c.s.thunderbird from 3 months
back when some of us started using v115, there are userChrome.css and
about:config settings that get it looking pretty close to how it used to
be, e.g.

<http://andyburns.uk/misc/TB115-menu-above-toolbar.png>

Not saying there aren't a few niggles remaining

Brian Gaff wrote:

> Well its a complete rewrite. I would suggest using version 102.

Keep using horses too?

> There seems
> little point in updating stuff until they sort out the dodgy stuff.

On 05/10/2023 10:47, Andy Burns wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> Christ, what a dogs breakfast, Nothing works like it did.
>>
>> Anyone needing  help I *might* be able to aid.
>
> Anyone needing help, look at messages in a.c.s.thunderbird from 3 months
> back when some of us started using v115, there are userChrome.css and
> about:config settings that get it looking pretty close to how it used to
> be, e.g.
>
> <http://andyburns.uk/misc/TB115-menu-above-toolbar.png>
>
> Not saying there aren't a few niggles remaining

Anyone restored the vertical lines linking previous posts in threads
yet? Most other things don't concern me too much, but that is something
I find useful.

I guess it won't be too long before v116 release appears. I think I'll
wait for that and hope that most of the v115 issues have been sorted out
before messing around with userChrome.css.

--

Jeff

On 05 Oct 2023, Brian Gaff wrote

(top-posted for Brian's set-up)

I've just switched Thunderbird on my wife's computer back to 102 from
115 -- I'd done mine a few weeks ago -- as 115 had decided to stop
downloading any messages for her.

There was probably a way of correcting that particular fault, but since
102 wasn't broken and we both preferred its UI, I couldn't be bothered
trying to make 115 behave itself.

--
Cheers, Harvey

> Well its a complete rewrite. I would suggest using version 102.
> There seems little point in updating stuff until they sort out the
> dodgy stuff.
> Brian
>

On 05/10/2023 10:49, Andy Burns wrote:
> Brian Gaff wrote:
>
>> Well its a complete rewrite. I would suggest using version 102.
>
> Keep using horses too?

Just because something has been updated it doesn't make it better.

With software it seems to be common that something that works well is
often updated or given a new GUI and never seems to work well ever again.

I've lost count of the number of programs that I've ditched because of
this in the past 30 years.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Jeff Layman wrote:

> Anyone restored the vertical lines linking previous posts in threads
> yet? Most other things don't concern me too much, but that is something
> I find useful.

Don't think there's much chance of CSS tweaks bringing those back.

> I guess it won't be too long before v116 release appears.

v116 won't appear, there isn't a release version of TB for every
corresponding FF version, only for the ESR versions, so apart from the
115.x.y versions the next major TB version will be something like v131
in autumn 2024

> I think I'll
> wait for that and hope that most of the v115 issues have been sorted out
> before messing around with userChrome.css.

On 05/10/2023 10:15, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> Christ, what a dogs breakfast, Nothing works like it did.
>
> But I have managed to get a consistent set of fonts, usable colours and
> download an old fashioned icon set.
>
> And make it use default identities. I no longer need an add-on to do the
> identity managing and the extension was fucking the inbuilt method.
>
> Anyone needing  help I *might* be able to aid.
>

I'm still on 78! If it aint broke etc etc .....

alan_m wrote:

> Just because something has been updated it doesn't make it better.

no, but if you run an old version that is no longer receiving updates,
that will break one day, e.g. if TLS 1.4 becomes a requirement for email
providers and TB is stuck on 1.2 or 1.3, it's game over if you stick to
an old version ... some "expert users" might roll their own tunnel with
plain POP/SMTP/IMAP/NNTP going in and TLS1.4 wrapped stuff coming out
the other end, but that chops the user-base down to 0.1% of people

> With software it seems to be common that something that works well is
> often updated or given a new GUI and never seems to work well ever again.

Unfortunately true, but TB had gathered 20 years of cruft, they've done
the painful re-write of the GUI now, despite assurances, it looks like a
feature or two has bitten the dust in that, they might return, or they
might be gone for good.

> I've lost count of the number of programs that I've ditched because of
> this in the past 30 years.

It's like asking for a car that moves along without the wheels going
round, if you drag the car far enough, bits start scraping off the
bottom ...

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Christ, what a dogs breakfast, Nothing works like it did.

It's not come through to Ubuntu yet, but I was interested to see this video
from one of the devs, about how they've thought through the changes and made
it both approachable for new users and how old users can go back to (more or
less) how it was before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P28jZTobvM4

The codebase dates from 2003 with a huge amount of cruft built up over the
years, yet is also built on top of Firefox which is an ever-moving target.
So in modernising that it's inevitable that some things will change.

It sounds like they're thought a lot about how it's possible to configure
things for those who are used to the old interface, as well as those new
users for whom the old interface is a massive turn-off.

Theo

On 05/10/2023 12:08, Andy Bennett wrote:
> On 05/10/2023 10:15, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> Christ, what a dogs breakfast, Nothing works like it did.
>>
>> But I have managed to get a consistent set of fonts, usable colours
>> and download an old fashioned icon set.
>>
>> And make it use default identities. I no longer need an add-on to do
>> the identity managing and the extension was fucking the inbuilt method.
>>
>> Anyone needing  help I *might* be able to aid.
>>
>
> I'm still on 78! If it aint broke etc etc .....

I take it you are ignoring the 217 known vulnerabilities in 78 then?

https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-452/product_id-3678/version_id-1247168/Mozilla-Thunderbird-78.15.html

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 05/10/2023 11:51, Andy Burns wrote:
> Jeff Layman wrote:

>> I guess it won't be too long before v116 release appears.
>
> v116 won't appear, there isn't a release version of TB for every
> corresponding FF version, only for the ESR versions, so apart from the
> 115.x.y versions the next major TB version will be something like v131
> in autumn 2024

Where did you see that? There's nothing on this page:
<https://developer.thunderbird.net/planning/roadmap>
and according to that page, it hasn't been updated for 2 months.

This seems well out-of-date too:
<https://enterprise.thunderbird.net/explore/thunderbird-release-cycle#release-cycle-details>

--

Jeff

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 05/10/2023 11:51, Andy Burns wrote:
> > Jeff Layman wrote:
>
> >> I guess it won't be too long before v116 release appears.
> >
> > v116 won't appear, there isn't a release version of TB for every
> > corresponding FF version, only for the ESR versions, so apart from the
> > 115.x.y versions the next major TB version will be something like v131
> > in autumn 2024
>
> Where did you see that? There's nothing on this page:
> <https://developer.thunderbird.net/planning/roadmap>
> and according to that page, it hasn't been updated for 2 months.
>
> This seems well out-of-date too:
> <https://enterprise.thunderbird.net/explore/thunderbird-release-cycle#release-cycle-details>

The next Firefox ESR is 128, expected July 2024:

https://whattrainisitnow.com/calendar/

I expect Thunderbird will follow suit, although perhaps with some time lag.

Theo

Jeff Layman wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> the next major TB version will be something like v131
>> in autumn 2024
>
> Where did you see that?

There's nowhere I can point you at that will tell you, you just have to
know how TB development works ...

FF produces a new version once a month, and bugfix point releases
in-between those, then it produces an ESR version about once a year for
enterprises who can't keep up with a new version every month, and they
feed serious bug fixes through to point releases of the ESR versions.

TB is built on top of the ESR and ESR point versions of FF.

The thunderbird team *are* looking at moving to monthly releases now
they have a bigger team, and have moved on a bit with v115.

> There's nothing on this page:
> <https://developer.thunderbird.net/planning/roadmap>
> and according to that page, it hasn't been updated for 2 months.
>
> This seems well out-of-date too:
> <https://enterprise.thunderbird.net/explore/thunderbird-release-cycle#release-cycle-details>

It is.

Theo wrote:

> The next Firefox ESR is 128, expected July 2024:

TB users don't get forced to have the ESR .0 versions, they wait until
three ESR point fix versions have gone past, that's why us "keen" users
have been on TB115.0.x and so on since July, but only now are "normal"
users being upgraded to TB115.3.x

the "3" is the three month delay, which will likely work out so that
128+3 = TB131 as the next major release ... unless they do manage to get
onto monthly TB releases before September?

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Theo wrote:
>
> > The next Firefox ESR is 128, expected July 2024:
>
> TB users don't get forced to have the ESR .0 versions, they wait until
> three ESR point fix versions have gone past, that's why us "keen" users
> have been on TB115.0.x and so on since July, but only now are "normal"
> users being upgraded to TB115.3.x
>
> the "3" is the three month delay, which will likely work out so that
> 128+3 = TB131 as the next major release ... unless they do manage to get
> onto monthly TB releases before September?

The versions are numbered the same as the Firefox ESRs: the current Firefox
ESR is 115 so the current TB release is 115.something. The next FF ESR is
128 so the next TB release will be 128.something

Most FF users aren't on the ESR so their FF continues to increase - 118,
119, 120... TB *are* on the ESR so they're on 115 plus point releases until
the next ESR comes out, and then they'll use its number - they don't follow
the non-ESR releases.

The point releases are those from TB, not FF. So the next will be 128.0,
then 128.1, 128.2 etc in sequence. They don't look at the 3 month delay so
won't do 128+3=131 or 128+0.3 = 128.3 (although there could be bugfix
releases like 128.0.1)

https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/thunderbird/releases/

Theo

In message <uflur9$sced$1@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> writes
>Christ, what a dogs breakfast, Nothing works like it did.
>
>But I have managed to get a consistent set of fonts, usable colours and
>download an old fashioned icon set.
>
>And make it use default identities. I no longer need an add-on to do
>the identity managing and the extension was fucking the inbuilt method.
>
>Anyone needing help I *might* be able to aid.

Hmm. My current whinge is that 115 does not recognise when a mail has
been read and I have to use the *get messages* route to turn off the
message waiting symbol.

I'm not using it for Newsgroups.

>

--
Tim Lamb

Theo wrote:

> The versions are numbered the same as the Firefox ESRs: the current Firefox
> ESR is 115 so the current TB release is 115.something. The next FF ESR is
> 128 so the next TB release will be 128.something

you're right, I got carried away with +3, rather than +0.3, so the next
version "pushed" onto v115.x users won't be 128+3=131, but it will be
v128.3, if you want 128.0 you'll have to "pull" it.

Tim Lamb wrote:

> My current whinge is that 115 does not recognise when a mail has been
> read and I have to use the get messages route to turn off the message
> waiting symbol.

Under tools/settings/reading&display/automatically mark messages as read

have you got "immediately" or "after displaying for N seconds" selected?

On 05/10/2023 13:40, John Rumm wrote:
> On 05/10/2023 12:08, Andy Bennett wrote:
>> On 05/10/2023 10:15, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> Christ, what a dogs breakfast, Nothing works like it did.
>>>
>>> But I have managed to get a consistent set of fonts, usable colours
>>> and download an old fashioned icon set.
>>>
>>> And make it use default identities. I no longer need an add-on to do
>>> the identity managing and the extension was fucking the inbuilt method.
>>>
>>> Anyone needing  help I *might* be able to aid.
>>>
>>
>> I'm still on 78! If it aint broke etc etc .....
>
> I take it you are ignoring the 217 known vulnerabilities in 78 then?
>
> https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-452/product_id-3678/version_id-1247168/Mozilla-Thunderbird-78.15.html
>
>

Yup, sure am!

In message <ko7t1vFe1hnU3@mid.individual.net>, Andy Burns
<usenet@andyburns.uk> writes
>Tim Lamb wrote:
>
>> My current whinge is that 115 does not recognise when a mail has been
>>read and I have to use the get messages route to turn off the message
>>waiting symbol.
>
>Under tools/settings/reading&display/automatically mark messages as read

OK
>
>have you got "immediately" or "after displaying for N seconds" selected?

I left that on 20 seconds.

As a supplementary: I have messages saved under my defunct Demon
address. If I delete this from my mail address list will these messages
continue to be saved?

--
Tim Lamb

On 05/10/2023 11:43, alan_m wrote:
> On 05/10/2023 10:49, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Brian Gaff wrote:
>>
>>> Well its a complete rewrite. I would suggest using version 102.
>>
>> Keep using horses too?
>
> Just because something has been updated it doesn't make it better.
>
> With software it seems to be common that something that works well is
> often updated or given a new GUI and never seems to work well ever again.
>
> I've lost count of the number of programs that I've ditched because of
> this in the past 30 years.
>
>
Well, yes.
In the case of thunderbird it was a dogs breakfast that had been hacked
so many times that it was un-maintainable, and I sort of applaud the
decisions to 'start again' with the user interface.
But as will all these major overhauls it will take a year before it
settles down

--
I was brought up to believe that you should never give offence if you
can avoid it; the new culture tells us you should always take offence if
you can. There are now experts in the art of taking offence, indeed
whole academic subjects, such as 'gender studies', devoted to it.

Sir Roger Scruton

Tim Lamb wrote:

> I left that on 20 seconds.

so unless you spend more than 20 seconds displaying/reading each
message, it won't reduce the counter

> As a supplementary: I have messages saved under my defunct Demon
> address. If I delete this from my mail address list will these messages
> continue to be saved?

do you mean the address book, or the list of email accounts?

easiest fix is to create a Demon folder under local folders, and drag
all the old messages into there, before deleting anything ...

In message <ko81fmFg1dmU1@mid.individual.net>, Andy Burns
<usenet@andyburns.uk> writes
>Tim Lamb wrote:
>
>> I left that on 20 seconds.
>
>so unless you spend more than 20 seconds displaying/reading each
>message, it won't reduce the counter

Oh! I didn't appreciate the way it functions and wanted to avoid finger
fumbles. I'll try 10 secs.
>
>> As a supplementary: I have messages saved under my defunct Demon
>>address. If I delete this from my mail address list will these
>>messages continue to be saved?
>
>do you mean the address book, or the list of email accounts?

Delete from the list of accounts.
>
>easiest fix is to create a Demon folder under local folders, and drag
>all the old messages into there, before deleting anything ...

Ok. I might manage that:-)

Thanks.

--
Tim Lamb