On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 9:57:34 AM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 11/10/2023 08:44, AlanC wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 8:24:01 AM UTC+1, Tim+ wrote:
> >
> >> It’s really a case of suck it (or rather “blow it”) and see.
> >> Depends a bit on how high your mains pressure is. Tim
> >>
> >
> > We had our house switch to mains pressure H/W about a year ago, in
> > preparation for the bathroom refits. We ran with the old toilets and
> > taps for about 4 months. The biggest "problem" was remembering to
> > turn the taps on a little bit otherwise the splash-back soaked your
> > trousers!
> >
> ???
> I used bog standard taps and bogs from new with high pressure.
> My only mistake was not running the shower cold feeds from after the PHW
> tanks pressure regulator . But the water company has recently dropped
> pressure in the mains to reduce leakage and its prety damned low these
> days so it all works
>
> The problem with taps and bogs is LOW pressure - they need bigger pipes
> and valves to get the flow rates on a header tank only 5 feet over the tap.
>
>
> --
> Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

Not sure what the ??? was for. What part of my comment did you not understand?

All of our replacement taps and toilets were standard items. We wanted to improve the flow rate for H/W (particularly in the kitchen which would take a couple of minutes to get anything resembling hot water from the tap), which is why we converted to an un-vented HW cylinder.

I was just commenting that the original taps and toilets were still in place for several months after the H/W conversion and worked fine.

The (expected) increase in H/W flow rate sometimes caught us off guard having been used to having to open the taps significantly prior to the conversion.

On 10/10/2023 22:25, AnthonyL wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 21:25:56 +0100, Robert <robert@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>>>
>>>> 2) Connect the inlet pipe to the outlet pipe and convert the bathroom
>>>> toilet, bath and sink to high pressure
>>>
>>> If you have a “conventional” tank fed hot water cylinder this is a very bad
>>> idea.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>
>> +1 But if the CW tank only feeds some taps and WCs then this seems the
>> simplest option.
>> The loss of a Cold Water reserve for WC flushing is probably a risk
>> worth taking unless you are subject to frequent water loss outrages.
>>
>
> Hot Water is from the combi boiler. We've probably had the mains off
> once, scheduled with warnings, in the 7 yrs or so we've been here.
>
> I guess if going mains some tap washers may need attending to. But
> it's also nice to think that water can be drawn from a tank without
> upsetting the flow from the boiler. If it makes any difference the
> property is a bungalow.
>
> I'll have a closer look tomorrow now that the tank has been drained.
> It's been boxed in so I need to remove that and the extra insulation
> that I added last year.
If your Mains Water pressure is high and you are concerned about old
taps etc. Just fit a pressure reducing valve at the same time.
You may even be able to do the "bypass" outside the loft ( where the HW
cylinder used to be) dependant on the pipe layout.

On 11/10/2023 09:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 10/10/2023 18:34, AnthonyL wrote:
>> My wife noticed a slight discolouration on the bathroom ceiling above
>> which is the water tank.  We had a survey warning that it looked a bit
>> dodgy when we purchased the house 7yrs ago - it was one of those
>> things "to be done" when we replaced our ageing combi boiler.
>>
>> Anyhow I've turned the stopcock off to the tank and opened the
>> bathroom tap, filling a number of buckets and draining the rest.
>>
>> It seems that I have two options unless more are suggested:
>>
>> 1) Replace the tank with a smaller* plastic one
>>
>> 2) Connect the inlet pipe to the outlet pipe and convert the bathroom
>> toilet, bath and sink to high pressure
>
> Do you have mains pressure *hot|* water already ? I,e a combi or a
> pressurised DHW tank? If so just do this option.
>
> header tanks unless you live in an area with frequent 'water cuts' are
> about as senseless as having a diesel generator for electricity.
>
>>
>> * The kitchen is now on mains pressure and the bath, if needing extra
>> cold water, is rarely used.  A second bathroom with shower is all high
>> pressure.  A replacement tank would need to go through the loft hatch
>> - I'm not sure that the existing one would.
>>
>> I presume any attempt at somehow lining the tank is a not going to
>> work?
>>
> Pointless. By your own account is is redundant anyway.
>
> Gird thy loins, replace it with some 22mm pass through,  cut it into
> pieces with an angle grinder and take it to the tip
>
> You can then insulate the ceiling where it used to be. Board it over and
> store some of the accumulated DIY crap you undoubtedly have, take your
> time and make good the ceiling beneath, and move firmly into  the XXI
> century...
>
>
>> Are either of the options above fraught with difficulty and what
>> should I look out for?  Or do I need to get a man in!
>>
> All you need to look out for is plumbing leaks. If soldering copper
> absolutely do not use lead free solder. It is total pants and will not
> flow. As I recently discovered. Thank Clapton Ive still got some leaded
> left over from electronic days.

So you like having lead metal in your drinking water? :-)

there is a reason why leaded petrol and leaded paint is banned.... :-)

I use lead free solder and you do have to (a) clean all surfaces
including inside fittigs, (b) use a flux and (c) use more heat.

> But today if you arm yourself with some pipe cutters and decent
> wrenches, you can do as good a job using plastic pipe. The plastic
> connectors are O rings and don't need superhuman force, but connections
> to existing copper will need well done up compression fittings.
>
> plenty of people here with more experience of plastic plumbing than me.
> But how hard can it be? Plumbers use it every day...and apart from
> bricklayers and groundworkers they are the thickest trade there is.
>
>
>>
>

On 11/10/2023 10:08, charles wrote:
> In article <ug5m8l$1nt6q$1@dont-email.me>,
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 10/10/2023 18:34, AnthonyL wrote:
>>> My wife noticed a slight discolouration on the bathroom ceiling above
>>> which is the water tank. We had a survey warning that it looked a bit
>>> dodgy when we purchased the house 7yrs ago - it was one of those
>>> things "to be done" when we replaced our ageing combi boiler.
>>>
>>> Anyhow I've turned the stopcock off to the tank and opened the
>>> bathroom tap, filling a number of buckets and draining the rest.
>>>
>>> It seems that I have two options unless more are suggested:
>>>
>>> 1) Replace the tank with a smaller* plastic one
>>>
>>> 2) Connect the inlet pipe to the outlet pipe and convert the bathroom
>>> toilet, bath and sink to high pressure
>
>> Do you have mains pressure *hot|* water already ? I,e a combi or a
>> pressurised DHW tank? If so just do this option.
>
>> header tanks unless you live in an area with frequent 'water cuts' are
>> about as senseless as having a diesel generator for electricity.
>
>>>
>>> * The kitchen is now on mains pressure and the bath, if needing extra
>>> cold water, is rarely used. A second bathroom with shower is all high
>>> pressure. A replacement tank would need to go through the loft hatch
>>> - I'm not sure that the existing one would.
>>>
>>> I presume any attempt at somehow lining the tank is a not going to
>>> work?
>>>
>> Pointless. By your own account is is redundant anyway.
>
>> Gird thy loins, replace it with some 22mm pass through, cut it into
>> pieces with an angle grinder and take it to the tip
>
>> You can then insulate the ceiling where it used to be. Board it over and
>> store some of the accumulated DIY crap you undoubtedly have, take your
>> time and make good the ceiling beneath, and move firmly into the XXI
>> century...
>
>
>>> Are either of the options above fraught with difficulty and what
>>> should I look out for? Or do I need to get a man in!
>>>
>> All you need to look out for is plumbing leaks. If soldering copper
>> absolutely do not use lead free solder. It is total pants and will not
>> flow. As I recently discovered. Thank Clapton Ive still got some leaded
>> left over from electronic days.
>> But today if you arm yourself with some pipe cutters and decent
>> wrenches, you can do as good a job using plastic pipe. The plastic
>> connectors are O rings and don't need superhuman force, but connections
>> to existing copper will need well done up compression fittings.
>
>> plenty of people here with more experience of plastic plumbing than me.
>> But how hard can it be? Plumbers use it every day...and apart from
>> bricklayers and groundworkers they are the thickest trade there is.
>
>
> Anyone like the plumber who used plastic pipe when renewing our utility?
> We are still living with weeping joints.
>

Sounds like they did not use pipe stiffeners which is mandatory when
working with plastic pipe and plastic pipe fittings!

and also no, you cannot mix up brands either when making a joint.

In article <ug6s1l$1vps5$2@dont-email.me>,
SH <i.love@spam.com> wrote:
> On 11/10/2023 10:08, charles wrote:
> > In article <ug5m8l$1nt6q$1@dont-email.me>,
> > The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >> On 10/10/2023 18:34, AnthonyL wrote:
> >>> My wife noticed a slight discolouration on the bathroom ceiling above
> >>> which is the water tank. We had a survey warning that it looked a bit
> >>> dodgy when we purchased the house 7yrs ago - it was one of those
> >>> things "to be done" when we replaced our ageing combi boiler.
> >>>
> >>> Anyhow I've turned the stopcock off to the tank and opened the
> >>> bathroom tap, filling a number of buckets and draining the rest.
> >>>
> >>> It seems that I have two options unless more are suggested:
> >>>
> >>> 1) Replace the tank with a smaller* plastic one
> >>>
> >>> 2) Connect the inlet pipe to the outlet pipe and convert the bathroom
> >>> toilet, bath and sink to high pressure
> >
> >> Do you have mains pressure *hot|* water already ? I,e a combi or a
> >> pressurised DHW tank? If so just do this option.
> >
> >> header tanks unless you live in an area with frequent 'water cuts' are
> >> about as senseless as having a diesel generator for electricity.
> >
> >>>
> >>> * The kitchen is now on mains pressure and the bath, if needing extra
> >>> cold water, is rarely used. A second bathroom with shower is all high
> >>> pressure. A replacement tank would need to go through the loft hatch
> >>> - I'm not sure that the existing one would.
> >>>
> >>> I presume any attempt at somehow lining the tank is a not going to
> >>> work?
> >>>
> >> Pointless. By your own account is is redundant anyway.
> >
> >> Gird thy loins, replace it with some 22mm pass through, cut it into
> >> pieces with an angle grinder and take it to the tip
> >
> >> You can then insulate the ceiling where it used to be. Board it over and
> >> store some of the accumulated DIY crap you undoubtedly have, take your
> >> time and make good the ceiling beneath, and move firmly into the XXI
> >> century...
> >
> >
> >>> Are either of the options above fraught with difficulty and what
> >>> should I look out for? Or do I need to get a man in!
> >>>
> >> All you need to look out for is plumbing leaks. If soldering copper
> >> absolutely do not use lead free solder. It is total pants and will not
> >> flow. As I recently discovered. Thank Clapton Ive still got some leaded
> >> left over from electronic days.
> >> But today if you arm yourself with some pipe cutters and decent
> >> wrenches, you can do as good a job using plastic pipe. The plastic
> >> connectors are O rings and don't need superhuman force, but connections
> >> to existing copper will need well done up compression fittings.
> >
> >> plenty of people here with more experience of plastic plumbing than me.
> >> But how hard can it be? Plumbers use it every day...and apart from
> >> bricklayers and groundworkers they are the thickest trade there is.
> >
> >
> > Anyone like the plumber who used plastic pipe when renewing our utility?
> > We are still living with weeping joints

yes, that was found to be the case in one - mains pressure joint.
I had to contact Trading Standards to get it repaired and the damage sorted.

> Sounds like they did not use pipe stiffeners which is mandatory when
> working with plastic pipe and plastic pipe fittings!

> and also no, you cannot mix up brands either when making a joint.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 11/10/2023 20:10, SH wrote:
> On 11/10/2023 09:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 10/10/2023 18:34, AnthonyL wrote:
>>> My wife noticed a slight discolouration on the bathroom ceiling above
>>> which is the water tank.  We had a survey warning that it looked a bit
>>> dodgy when we purchased the house 7yrs ago - it was one of those
>>> things "to be done" when we replaced our ageing combi boiler.
>>>
>>> Anyhow I've turned the stopcock off to the tank and opened the
>>> bathroom tap, filling a number of buckets and draining the rest.
>>>
>>> It seems that I have two options unless more are suggested:
>>>
>>> 1) Replace the tank with a smaller* plastic one
>>>
>>> 2) Connect the inlet pipe to the outlet pipe and convert the bathroom
>>> toilet, bath and sink to high pressure
>>
>> Do you have mains pressure *hot|* water already ? I,e a combi or a
>> pressurised DHW tank? If so just do this option.
>>
>> header tanks unless you live in an area with frequent 'water cuts' are
>> about as senseless as having a diesel generator for electricity.
>>
>>>
>>> * The kitchen is now on mains pressure and the bath, if needing extra
>>> cold water, is rarely used.  A second bathroom with shower is all high
>>> pressure.  A replacement tank would need to go through the loft hatch
>>> - I'm not sure that the existing one would.
>>>
>>> I presume any attempt at somehow lining the tank is a not going to
>>> work?
>>>
>> Pointless. By your own account is is redundant anyway.
>>
>> Gird thy loins, replace it with some 22mm pass through,  cut it into
>> pieces with an angle grinder and take it to the tip
>>
>> You can then insulate the ceiling where it used to be. Board it over
>> and store some of the accumulated DIY crap you undoubtedly have, take
>> your time and make good the ceiling beneath, and move firmly into  the
>> XXI century...
>>
>>
>>> Are either of the options above fraught with difficulty and what
>>> should I look out for?  Or do I need to get a man in!
>>>
>> All you need to look out for is plumbing leaks. If soldering copper
>> absolutely do not use lead free solder. It is total pants and will not
>> flow. As I recently discovered. Thank Clapton Ive still got some
>> leaded left over from electronic days.
>
> So you like having lead metal in your drinking water? :-)
>
It was a hot water circuit.
To one tap
And the amount is so trivial as to be totally insignificant

> there is a reason why leaded petrol and leaded paint is banned.... :-)
>

Mostly political. The Art Student mind. Golly, someone drowned in a
lake! Ban Water!

Petrol? yes enough fumes in the air to make a difference. Paint? No,
not really. But it wasn't needed anyway

> I use lead free solder and you do have to (a) clean all surfaces
> including inside fittigs, (b) use a flux and (c) use more heat.
>

Did all of that.

It still sucked.

--
"And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14

On 12/10/2023 10:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Mostly political. The Art Student mind. Golly, someone drowned in a
> lake! Ban Water!

Dihydrogen monoxide is colourless, odourless, tasteless, and kills
uncounted thousands of people every year.

What are the dangers of Dihydrogen Monoxide?

Most of these deaths are caused by accidental inhalation of DHMO, but
the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide do not end there. Prolonged exposure
to its solid form causes severe tissue damage. Symptoms of DHMO
ingestion can include excessive sweating and urination, and possibly a
bloated feeling, nausea, vomiting and body electrolyte imbalance. For
those who have become dependent, DHMO withdrawal means certain death.

Dihydrogen Monoxide Facts
Dihydrogen monoxide:

is also known as hydric acid, and is the major component of acid rain.
contributes to the Greenhouse Effect.
may cause severe burns.
contributes to the erosion of our natural landscape.
accelerates corrosion and rusting of many metals.
may cause electrical failures and decreased effectiveness of
automobile brakes.
has been found in excised tumors of terminal cancer patients.

Dihydrogen Monoxide Alerts
Contamination is reaching epidemic proportions!

Quantities of dihydrogen monoxide have been found in almost every
stream, lake, and reservoir in the UK today. But the pollution is
global, and the contaminant has even been found in Antarctic ice.

Dihydrogen Monoxide Uses
Despite the danger, dihydrogen monoxide is often used:

as an industrial solvent and coolant.
in nuclear power plants.
in the production of styrofoam.
as a fire retardant.
in many forms of cruel animal research.
in the distribution of pesticides. Even after washing, produce
remains contaminated by this chemical.
as an additive in certain junk-foods and other food products.

Stop the horror - Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide
Companies dump waste DHMO into rivers and the ocean, and nothing can be
done to stop them because this practice is still legal. The impact on
wildlife is extreme, and we cannot afford to ignore it any longer!
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/10/2023 20:10, SH wrote:
>> On 11/10/2023 09:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 10/10/2023 18:34, AnthonyL wrote:
>>>> My wife noticed a slight discolouration on the bathroom ceiling above
>>>> which is the water tank.  We had a survey warning that it looked a bit
>>>> dodgy when we purchased the house 7yrs ago - it was one of those
>>>> things "to be done" when we replaced our ageing combi boiler.
>>>>
>>>> Anyhow I've turned the stopcock off to the tank and opened the
>>>> bathroom tap, filling a number of buckets and draining the rest.
>>>>
>>>> It seems that I have two options unless more are suggested:
>>>>
>>>> 1) Replace the tank with a smaller* plastic one
>>>>
>>>> 2) Connect the inlet pipe to the outlet pipe and convert the bathroom
>>>> toilet, bath and sink to high pressure
>>>
>>> Do you have mains pressure *hot|* water already ? I,e a combi or a
>>> pressurised DHW tank? If so just do this option.
>>>
>>> header tanks unless you live in an area with frequent 'water cuts' are
>>> about as senseless as having a diesel generator for electricity.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> * The kitchen is now on mains pressure and the bath, if needing extra
>>>> cold water, is rarely used.  A second bathroom with shower is all high
>>>> pressure.  A replacement tank would need to go through the loft hatch
>>>> - I'm not sure that the existing one would.
>>>>
>>>> I presume any attempt at somehow lining the tank is a not going to
>>>> work?
>>>>
>>> Pointless. By your own account is is redundant anyway.
>>>
>>> Gird thy loins, replace it with some 22mm pass through,  cut it into
>>> pieces with an angle grinder and take it to the tip
>>>
>>> You can then insulate the ceiling where it used to be. Board it over
>>> and store some of the accumulated DIY crap you undoubtedly have, take
>>> your time and make good the ceiling beneath, and move firmly into  the
>>> XXI century...
>>>
>>>
>>>> Are either of the options above fraught with difficulty and what
>>>> should I look out for?  Or do I need to get a man in!
>>>>
>>> All you need to look out for is plumbing leaks. If soldering copper
>>> absolutely do not use lead free solder. It is total pants and will not
>>> flow. As I recently discovered. Thank Clapton Ive still got some
>>> leaded left over from electronic days.
>>
>> So you like having lead metal in your drinking water? :-)
>>
> It was a hot water circuit.
> To one tap

Um, no. Clearly you didn’t pay attention at art school. He has a combi
for hot water. Therefore it’s providing gravity fed cold water to the
toilet, bath and sink.

> And the amount is so trivial as to be totally insignificant

Well that’s probably true.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 12 Oct 2023 13:11:59 GMT, Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:

>The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 11/10/2023 20:10, SH wrote:
>>> On 11/10/2023 09:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 10/10/2023 18:34, AnthonyL wrote:
>>>>> My wife noticed a slight discolouration on the bathroom ceiling above
>>>>> which is the water tank.  We had a survey warning that it looked a bit
>>>>> dodgy when we purchased the house 7yrs ago - it was one of those
>>>>> things "to be done" when we replaced our ageing combi boiler.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyhow I've turned the stopcock off to the tank and opened the
>>>>> bathroom tap, filling a number of buckets and draining the rest.
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems that I have two options unless more are suggested:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) Replace the tank with a smaller* plastic one
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) Connect the inlet pipe to the outlet pipe and convert the bathroom
>>>>> toilet, bath and sink to high pressure
>>>>
>>>> Do you have mains pressure *hot|* water already ? I,e a combi or a
>>>> pressurised DHW tank? If so just do this option.
>>>>
>>>> header tanks unless you live in an area with frequent 'water cuts' are
>>>> about as senseless as having a diesel generator for electricity.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * The kitchen is now on mains pressure and the bath, if needing extra
>>>>> cold water, is rarely used.  A second bathroom with shower is all high
>>>>> pressure.  A replacement tank would need to go through the loft hatch
>>>>> - I'm not sure that the existing one would.
>>>>>
>>>>> I presume any attempt at somehow lining the tank is a not going to
>>>>> work?
>>>>>
>>>> Pointless. By your own account is is redundant anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Gird thy loins, replace it with some 22mm pass through,  cut it into
>>>> pieces with an angle grinder and take it to the tip
>>>>
>>>> You can then insulate the ceiling where it used to be. Board it over
>>>> and store some of the accumulated DIY crap you undoubtedly have, take
>>>> your time and make good the ceiling beneath, and move firmly into  the
>>>> XXI century...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Are either of the options above fraught with difficulty and what
>>>>> should I look out for?  Or do I need to get a man in!
>>>>>
>>>> All you need to look out for is plumbing leaks. If soldering copper
>>>> absolutely do not use lead free solder. It is total pants and will not
>>>> flow. As I recently discovered. Thank Clapton Ive still got some
>>>> leaded left over from electronic days.
>>>
>>> So you like having lead metal in your drinking water? :-)
>>>
>> It was a hot water circuit.
>> To one tap
>
>Um, no. Clearly you didn’t pay attention at art school. He has a combi
>for hot water. Therefore it’s providing gravity fed cold water to the
>toilet, bath and sink.
>

Well spotted <thumbs up>

I'm spending the day up there tomorrow getting to the bits I need to
get to which involves moving platform boarding that the previous
owners put in (and very useful too) plus the additional insulation I
so carefully added last autumn. So gloves, mask and goggles,
screwdriver etc. I'll check the pipes as I suspect the mains in is
larger than the outlet down (1/2"). Probably take some measurements
and photos then up to the local plumbers merchant for the bits to join
the mains to the outlet. One complication is that the connector at
the tank also shoots off to the rest of the house and the feed for the
boiler. I've had to tie the float up as when I turned the supply to
the tank off there was no water to the rest of the house.

I'll probably have to move the tank a bit to get to the outlet.

Just to add that there is a stop cock (looks like an in-line tap) at
the inlet to the tank and a gate valve (? nice red circular handle) on
the outlet.

Meanwhile the bath is full of buckets to fill the toilet cistern and
the hot water is turned to minimum temp on the boiler so the buckets
can be filled. All a bit of a logistics exercise which has taken
second place (much to swmbo's disgust) to trying to fix my electric
golf trolley, which failed on Tuesday, in preparation for today's
golf, but the motor is jammed so back to pushing a manual one around
the course and now suffering the backache as a result.

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

On 12/10/2023 22:51, AnthonyL wrote:

> Just to add that there is a stop cock (looks like an in-line tap) at
> the inlet to the tank and a gate valve (? nice red circular handle) on
> the outlet.

Gate valves tend to seize solid 5 minutes after being installed - they
are the spawn of the devil :)

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 10/10/2023 21:15, Tim+ wrote:
> If you have a “conventional” tank fed hot water cylinder this is a very bad
> idea.

On the other hand, it offers some really worthwhile advantages, denied
those who really on the instant water heating of a combi-boiler system.

On Friday, 13 October 2023 at 14:10:53 UTC+1, Harry Bloomfield Esq wrote:
> On 10/10/2023 21:15, Tim+ wrote:
> > If you have a “conventional” tank fed hot water cylinder this is a very bad
> > idea.
> On the other hand, it offers some really worthwhile advantages, denied
> those who really on the instant water heating of a combi-boiler system.

Trust me, feeding mains pressure into a copper hw cylinder does not have any advantages.

On 10/10/2023 22:25, AnthonyL wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 21:25:56 +0100, Robert <robert@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>>>
>>>> 2) Connect the inlet pipe to the outlet pipe and convert the bathroom
>>>> toilet, bath and sink to high pressure
>>>
>>> If you have a “conventional” tank fed hot water cylinder this is a very bad
>>> idea.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>
>> +1 But if the CW tank only feeds some taps and WCs then this seems the
>> simplest option.
>> The loss of a Cold Water reserve for WC flushing is probably a risk
>> worth taking unless you are subject to frequent water loss outrages.
>>
>
> Hot Water is from the combi boiler. We've probably had the mains off
> once, scheduled with warnings, in the 7 yrs or so we've been here.
>
> I guess if going mains some tap washers may need attending to. But
> it's also nice to think that water can be drawn from a tank without
> upsetting the flow from the boiler. If it makes any difference the
> property is a bungalow.
>
> I'll have a closer look tomorrow now that the tank has been drained.
> It's been boxed in so I need to remove that and the extra insulation
> that I added last year.

You may have accelerated or caused the problem by trapping condensation
on the outside of the tank which previously might have just
evaporated away

On Tuesday, 10 October 2023 at 18:34:01 UTC+1, AnthonyL wrote:
> My wife noticed a slight discolouration on the bathroom ceiling above
> which is the water tank. We had a survey warning that it looked a bit
> dodgy when we purchased the house 7yrs ago - it was one of those
> things "to be done" when we replaced our ageing combi boiler.
>
> Anyhow I've turned the stopcock off to the tank and opened the
> bathroom tap, filling a number of buckets and draining the rest.
>
> It seems that I have two options unless more are suggested:
>
> 1) Replace the tank with a smaller* plastic one
>
> 2) Connect the inlet pipe to the outlet pipe and convert the bathroom
> toilet, bath and sink to high pressure
>
> * The kitchen is now on mains pressure and the bath, if needing extra
> cold water, is rarely used. A second bathroom with shower is all high
> pressure. A replacement tank would need to go through the loft hatch
> - I'm not sure that the existing one would.
>
> I presume any attempt at somehow lining the tank is a not going to
> work?
>
> Are either of the options above fraught with difficulty and what
> should I look out for? Or do I need to get a man in!
>
>
> --
> AnthonyL
>
> Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

"Collapsible" poly tanks are available for just such jobs. The term collapsible is somewhat generous having actually used one and fought to fold it down and drag it through the hatch once but they do work. A fibreglass and resin repair might work but preparing the surface of the old tank and achieving a seal to the outlet etc would not be trivial

On Wednesday, 11 October 2023 at 10:08:08 UTC+1, charles wrote:
> In article <ug5m8l$1nt6q$1...@dont-email.me>,
> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> > On 10/10/2023 18:34, AnthonyL wrote:
> > > My wife noticed a slight discolouration on the bathroom ceiling above
> > > which is the water tank. We had a survey warning that it looked a bit
> > > dodgy when we purchased the house 7yrs ago - it was one of those
> > > things "to be done" when we replaced our ageing combi boiler.
> > >
> > > Anyhow I've turned the stopcock off to the tank and opened the
> > > bathroom tap, filling a number of buckets and draining the rest.
> > >
> > > It seems that I have two options unless more are suggested:
> > >
> > > 1) Replace the tank with a smaller* plastic one
> > >
> > > 2) Connect the inlet pipe to the outlet pipe and convert the bathroom
> > > toilet, bath and sink to high pressure
>
> > Do you have mains pressure *hot|* water already ? I,e a combi or a
> > pressurised DHW tank? If so just do this option.
>
> > header tanks unless you live in an area with frequent 'water cuts' are
> > about as senseless as having a diesel generator for electricity.
>
> > >
> > > * The kitchen is now on mains pressure and the bath, if needing extra
> > > cold water, is rarely used. A second bathroom with shower is all high
> > > pressure. A replacement tank would need to go through the loft hatch
> > > - I'm not sure that the existing one would.
> > >
> > > I presume any attempt at somehow lining the tank is a not going to
> > > work?
> > >
> > Pointless. By your own account is is redundant anyway.
>
> > Gird thy loins, replace it with some 22mm pass through, cut it into
> > pieces with an angle grinder and take it to the tip
>
> > You can then insulate the ceiling where it used to be. Board it over and
> > store some of the accumulated DIY crap you undoubtedly have, take your
> > time and make good the ceiling beneath, and move firmly into the XXI
> > century...
>
>
> > > Are either of the options above fraught with difficulty and what
> > > should I look out for? Or do I need to get a man in!
> > >
> > All you need to look out for is plumbing leaks. If soldering copper
> > absolutely do not use lead free solder. It is total pants and will not
> > flow. As I recently discovered. Thank Clapton Ive still got some leaded
> > left over from electronic days.
> > But today if you arm yourself with some pipe cutters and decent
> > wrenches, you can do as good a job using plastic pipe. The plastic
> > connectors are O rings and don't need superhuman force, but connections
> > to existing copper will need well done up compression fittings.
>
> > plenty of people here with more experience of plastic plumbing than me.
> > But how hard can it be? Plumbers use it every day...and apart from
> > bricklayers and groundworkers they are the thickest trade there is.
> Anyone like the plumber who used plastic pipe when renewing our utility?
> We are still living with weeping joints.
>
> --
> from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4t้ฒ
> "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Whatever happened to mad mark aka IMM? (The plastic pipe expert)

On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 09:19:06 +0100, Andrew <Andrew97d@btinternet.com>
wrote:

>On 10/10/2023 22:25, AnthonyL wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 21:25:56 +0100, Robert <robert@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) Connect the inlet pipe to the outlet pipe and convert the bathroom
>>>>> toilet, bath and sink to high pressure
>>>>
>>>> If you have a “conventional” tank fed hot water cylinder this is a very bad
>>>> idea.
>>>>
>>>> Tim
>>>
>>> +1 But if the CW tank only feeds some taps and WCs then this seems the
>>> simplest option.
>>> The loss of a Cold Water reserve for WC flushing is probably a risk
>>> worth taking unless you are subject to frequent water loss outrages.
>>>
>>
>> Hot Water is from the combi boiler. We've probably had the mains off
>> once, scheduled with warnings, in the 7 yrs or so we've been here.
>>
>> I guess if going mains some tap washers may need attending to. But
>> it's also nice to think that water can be drawn from a tank without
>> upsetting the flow from the boiler. If it makes any difference the
>> property is a bungalow.
>>
>> I'll have a closer look tomorrow now that the tank has been drained.
>> It's been boxed in so I need to remove that and the extra insulation
>> that I added last year.
>
>You may have accelerated or caused the problem by trapping condensation
>on the outside of the tank which previously might have just
>evaporated away

The loft is quite dry and well ventilated.* Internal tank erosion was
noted by our house surveryor 8yrs ago. It was on a "round toit" list
when I'd expected to have had work done including an updated combi
boiler. Just have left it a bit too long.

*I had made a mistake of pushing the insulation right up to the eves
when I did it last year. Two days later the whole loft was dripping.
Pulled it back and fine thereafter.

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 14:10:48 +0100, Harry Bloomfield Esq
<a@harrym1byt.plus.com> wrote:

>On 10/10/2023 21:15, Tim+ wrote:
>> If you have a “conventional” tank fed hot water cylinder this is a very bad
>> idea.
>
>On the other hand, it offers some really worthwhile advantages, denied
>those who really on the instant water heating of a combi-boiler system.

Immaterlal, previousl owners ripped out the tank fed hot water
cylinder.

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

John J <johnjessop46@gmail.com> wrote:

> Whatever happened to mad mark aka IMM? (The plastic pipe expert)
>

Whatever you do, don’t say his name three times…

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 14/10/2023 20:35, Animal wrote:
> Trust me, feeding mains pressure into a copper hw cylinder does not have
> any advantages.

I was not suggesting feeding mains pressure into a hw cylinder, rather I
was pointing out that retaining a stored hw system has major advantages
over the quite meagre flow from a combi.

On 11/10/2023 20:10, SH wrote:
> So you like having lead metal in your drinking water? 🙂
>
> there is a reason why leaded petrol and leaded paint is banned.... 🙂
>
> I use lead free solder and you do have to (a) clean all surfaces
> including inside fittigs, (b) use a flux and (c) use more heat.

Lead pipes were used in drinking water supplies, since Roman times, the
amount in copper joints is miniscule by comparison. The move to plastic
was more about economy and ease of installation, than concerns over lead
poisoning.

In message <uggrt0$el4i$2@dont-email.me>, Harry Bloomfield Esq
<a@harrym1byt.plus.com> writes
>On 14/10/2023 20:35, Animal wrote:
>> Trust me, feeding mains pressure into a copper hw cylinder does not
>>have any advantages.
>
>I was not suggesting feeding mains pressure into a hw cylinder, rather
>I was pointing out that retaining a stored hw system has major
>advantages over the quite meagre flow from a combi.

I fitted a thermal store here. Works well but kindly don't ask me to
evaluate the overall thermal efficiency WRT a combi.

--
Tim Lamb

On 15/10/2023 15:33, Tim Lamb wrote:
> In message <uggrt0$el4i$2@dont-email.me>, Harry Bloomfield Esq
> <a@harrym1byt.plus.com> writes
>> On 14/10/2023 20:35, Animal wrote:
>>> Trust me, feeding mains pressure into a copper hw cylinder does not
>>> have  any advantages.
>>
>> I was not suggesting feeding mains pressure into a hw cylinder, rather
>> I was pointing out that retaining a stored hw system has major
>> advantages over the quite meagre flow from a combi.
>
> I fitted a thermal store here. Works well but kindly don't ask me to
> evaluate the overall thermal efficiency WRT a combi.
>
Catering dept has the menopause ???

In message <ugh62o$ju7p$1@dont-email.me>, Andrew
<Andrew97d@btinternet.com> writes
>On 15/10/2023 15:33, Tim Lamb wrote:
>> In message <uggrt0$el4i$2@dont-email.me>, Harry Bloomfield Esq
>><a@harrym1byt.plus.com> writes
>>> On 14/10/2023 20:35, Animal wrote:
>>>> Trust me, feeding mains pressure into a copper hw cylinder does not
>>>>have  any advantages.
>>>
>>> I was not suggesting feeding mains pressure into a hw cylinder,
>>>rather I was pointing out that retaining a stored hw system has
>>>major advantages over the quite meagre flow from a combi.
>> I fitted a thermal store here. Works well but kindly don't ask me to
>>evaluate the overall thermal efficiency WRT a combi.
>>
>Catering dept has the menopause ???

? About 35 years back. She does like a hot bath:-)
>

--
Tim Lamb

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 21:51:19 GMT, nospam@please.invalid (AnthonyL)
wrote:

>On 12 Oct 2023 13:11:59 GMT, Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 11/10/2023 20:10, SH wrote:
>>>> On 11/10/2023 09:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 10/10/2023 18:34, AnthonyL wrote:
>>>>>> My wife noticed a slight discolouration on the bathroom ceiling above
>>>>>> which is the water tank.  We had a survey warning that it looked a bit
>>>>>> dodgy when we purchased the house 7yrs ago - it was one of those
>>>>>> things "to be done" when we replaced our ageing combi boiler.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyhow I've turned the stopcock off to the tank and opened the
>>>>>> bathroom tap, filling a number of buckets and draining the rest.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It seems that I have two options unless more are suggested:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) Replace the tank with a smaller* plastic one
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) Connect the inlet pipe to the outlet pipe and convert the bathroom
>>>>>> toilet, bath and sink to high pressure
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you have mains pressure *hot|* water already ? I,e a combi or a
>>>>> pressurised DHW tank? If so just do this option.
>>>>>
>>>>> header tanks unless you live in an area with frequent 'water cuts' are
>>>>> about as senseless as having a diesel generator for electricity.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * The kitchen is now on mains pressure and the bath, if needing extra
>>>>>> cold water, is rarely used.  A second bathroom with shower is all high
>>>>>> pressure.  A replacement tank would need to go through the loft hatch
>>>>>> - I'm not sure that the existing one would.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I presume any attempt at somehow lining the tank is a not going to
>>>>>> work?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Pointless. By your own account is is redundant anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gird thy loins, replace it with some 22mm pass through,  cut it into
>>>>> pieces with an angle grinder and take it to the tip
>>>>>
>>>>> You can then insulate the ceiling where it used to be. Board it over
>>>>> and store some of the accumulated DIY crap you undoubtedly have, take
>>>>> your time and make good the ceiling beneath, and move firmly into  the
>>>>> XXI century...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Are either of the options above fraught with difficulty and what
>>>>>> should I look out for?  Or do I need to get a man in!
>>>>>>
>>>>> All you need to look out for is plumbing leaks. If soldering copper
>>>>> absolutely do not use lead free solder. It is total pants and will not
>>>>> flow. As I recently discovered. Thank Clapton Ive still got some
>>>>> leaded left over from electronic days.
>>>>
>>>> So you like having lead metal in your drinking water? :-)
>>>>
>>> It was a hot water circuit.
>>> To one tap
>>
>>Um, no. Clearly you didn’t pay attention at art school. He has a combi
>>for hot water. Therefore it’s providing gravity fed cold water to the
>>toilet, bath and sink.
>>
>
>Well spotted <thumbs up>
>
>I'm spending the day up there tomorrow getting to the bits I need to
>get to which involves moving platform boarding that the previous
>owners put in (and very useful too) plus the additional insulation I
>so carefully added last autumn. So gloves, mask and goggles,
>screwdriver etc. I'll check the pipes as I suspect the mains in is
>larger than the outlet down (1/2"). Probably take some measurements
>and photos then up to the local plumbers merchant for the bits to join
>the mains to the outlet. One complication is that the connector at
>the tank also shoots off to the rest of the house and the feed for the
>boiler. I've had to tie the float up as when I turned the supply to
>the tank off there was no water to the rest of the house.
>
>I'll probably have to move the tank a bit to get to the outlet.
>
>Just to add that there is a stop cock (looks like an in-line tap) at
>the inlet to the tank and a gate valve (? nice red circular handle) on
>the outlet.
>
>Meanwhile the bath is full of buckets to fill the toilet cistern and
>the hot water is turned to minimum temp on the boiler so the buckets
>can be filled. All a bit of a logistics exercise which has taken
>second place (much to swmbo's disgust) to trying to fix my electric
>golf trolley, which failed on Tuesday, in preparation for today's
>golf, but the motor is jammed so back to pushing a manual one around
>the course and now suffering the backache as a result.
>
>

All done and seems to be working. Very helpful man from Plumbline
worked out the bits I needed bearing in mind I was mixing imperial and
metric. Kindly gave me an offcut of 22mm pipe too.

Some photos for anyone interested:

https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjA8aE8

And I've found an identical golf trolley on Farcebook Market place
within 1hrs drive from here at a respectable price. Hope to pick up
in a few days.

Wonder what will go wrong next.

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

On 15/10/2023 20:03, AnthonyL wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 21:51:19 GMT, nospam@please.invalid (AnthonyL)
> wrote:
>
>> On 12 Oct 2023 13:11:59 GMT, Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 11/10/2023 20:10, SH wrote:
>>>>> On 11/10/2023 09:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/10/2023 18:34, AnthonyL wrote:
>>>>>>> My wife noticed a slight discolouration on the bathroom ceiling above
>>>>>>> which is the water tank.  We had a survey warning that it looked a bit
>>>>>>> dodgy when we purchased the house 7yrs ago - it was one of those
>>>>>>> things "to be done" when we replaced our ageing combi boiler.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyhow I've turned the stopcock off to the tank and opened the
>>>>>>> bathroom tap, filling a number of buckets and draining the rest.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It seems that I have two options unless more are suggested:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1) Replace the tank with a smaller* plastic one
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2) Connect the inlet pipe to the outlet pipe and convert the bathroom
>>>>>>> toilet, bath and sink to high pressure
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you have mains pressure *hot|* water already ? I,e a combi or a
>>>>>> pressurised DHW tank? If so just do this option.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> header tanks unless you live in an area with frequent 'water cuts' are
>>>>>> about as senseless as having a diesel generator for electricity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * The kitchen is now on mains pressure and the bath, if needing extra
>>>>>>> cold water, is rarely used.  A second bathroom with shower is all high
>>>>>>> pressure.  A replacement tank would need to go through the loft hatch
>>>>>>> - I'm not sure that the existing one would.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I presume any attempt at somehow lining the tank is a not going to
>>>>>>> work?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pointless. By your own account is is redundant anyway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gird thy loins, replace it with some 22mm pass through,  cut it into
>>>>>> pieces with an angle grinder and take it to the tip
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can then insulate the ceiling where it used to be. Board it over
>>>>>> and store some of the accumulated DIY crap you undoubtedly have, take
>>>>>> your time and make good the ceiling beneath, and move firmly into  the
>>>>>> XXI century...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are either of the options above fraught with difficulty and what
>>>>>>> should I look out for?  Or do I need to get a man in!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> All you need to look out for is plumbing leaks. If soldering copper
>>>>>> absolutely do not use lead free solder. It is total pants and will not
>>>>>> flow. As I recently discovered. Thank Clapton Ive still got some
>>>>>> leaded left over from electronic days.
>>>>>
>>>>> So you like having lead metal in your drinking water? :-)
>>>>>
>>>> It was a hot water circuit.
>>>> To one tap
>>>
>>> Um, no. Clearly you didn’t pay attention at art school. He has a combi
>>> for hot water. Therefore it’s providing gravity fed cold water to the
>>> toilet, bath and sink.
>>>
>>
>> Well spotted <thumbs up>
>>
>> I'm spending the day up there tomorrow getting to the bits I need to
>> get to which involves moving platform boarding that the previous
>> owners put in (and very useful too) plus the additional insulation I
>> so carefully added last autumn. So gloves, mask and goggles,
>> screwdriver etc. I'll check the pipes as I suspect the mains in is
>> larger than the outlet down (1/2"). Probably take some measurements
>> and photos then up to the local plumbers merchant for the bits to join
>> the mains to the outlet. One complication is that the connector at
>> the tank also shoots off to the rest of the house and the feed for the
>> boiler. I've had to tie the float up as when I turned the supply to
>> the tank off there was no water to the rest of the house.
>>
>> I'll probably have to move the tank a bit to get to the outlet.
>>
>> Just to add that there is a stop cock (looks like an in-line tap) at
>> the inlet to the tank and a gate valve (? nice red circular handle) on
>> the outlet.
>>
>> Meanwhile the bath is full of buckets to fill the toilet cistern and
>> the hot water is turned to minimum temp on the boiler so the buckets
>> can be filled. All a bit of a logistics exercise which has taken
>> second place (much to swmbo's disgust) to trying to fix my electric
>> golf trolley, which failed on Tuesday, in preparation for today's
>> golf, but the motor is jammed so back to pushing a manual one around
>> the course and now suffering the backache as a result.
>>
>>
>
> All done and seems to be working. Very helpful man from Plumbline
> worked out the bits I needed bearing in mind I was mixing imperial and
> metric. Kindly gave me an offcut of 22mm pipe too.
>
> Some photos for anyone interested:
>
> https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjA8aE8
>

Dont forget to insulate those pipes :-)