On 30/11/2023 16:03, alan_m wrote:
> On 30/11/2023 13:18, nib wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 12:05:22 +0000, NY wrote:
>
>
>
> Milk to the doorstep possibly started to die off when in two adult
> households both went to work during the day. Milk left on the doorstep
> all day went off.

Our deliveries were getting later and later in the day and so became
useless for fresh milk for breakfast. I recall birds pecking through the
foil top and getting some of the cream!

I think it was well and truly killed off when supermarkets starting to
sell milk at half the price due to the Milk Marketing Board being
disenfranchised.

(top-posted for Brian)

Some shredders just cut the paper lengthwise into longs strips. Fibres
across the paper will be cut, but the ones along the length will be fine.

More secure shredders cut it up into little bits. There can be no long
fibres left uncut.

Andy

On 30/11/2023 10:45, Brian Gaff wrote:
> Just to muddy the waters, my council said the strip type shredded paper
> preserves its long fibres and can be recycled, but the type where its tiny
> little diamonds or whatever, cannot be as the fibres are cut. What I don't
> get about this is that, how do you know whichways the fibres run to shred
> them in the right way?

alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On 30/11/2023 13:18, nib wrote:
> > On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 12:05:22 +0000, NY wrote:
>
>
>
> Milk to the doorstep possibly started to die off when in two adult
> households both went to work during the day. Milk left on the doorstep
> all day went off.

I've seen the local milk float driving around doing deliveries at 1am.
Works as long as you remember to bring it in in the morning.

Theo

On 29/11/2023 17:45, NY wrote:
>
> The right answer would be for the whole of the UK to have standardised
> rules on a) bin colours, and b) what can go in each bin.
>
<snip>

Forcing every council in the country to re-issue all the bins to a
standard set of colours would be enormously expensive. That ship has sailed.

Andy

On 30/11/2023 16:31, Fredxx wrote:
> On 30/11/2023 16:03, alan_m wrote:
>> On 30/11/2023 13:18, nib wrote:
>>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 12:05:22 +0000, NY wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Milk to the doorstep possibly started to die off when in two adult
>> households both went to work during the day. Milk left on the doorstep
>> all day went off.
>
> Our deliveries were getting later and later in the day and so became
> useless for fresh milk for breakfast. I recall birds pecking through the
> foil top and getting some of the cream!
>
> I think it was well and truly killed off when supermarkets starting to
> sell milk at half the price due to the Milk Marketing Board being
> disenfranchised.
>
Oddly they seem to be making a comeback in some areas. We have Creamline

https://www.creamline.co.uk/

who deliver very early, in sustainable glass bottles. I believe from
cold callers and leaflets that there are others.

Dave

On 30/11/2023 13:18, nib wrote:

> Well... in my father's day on a dairy farm, the milk went out in churns
> in a motorcycle side-car and was measured out into the customer's
> containers. But yes, unlikely to work so well these days!

We have a holiday cottage in a tiny village in the Yorkshire Dales. The
dairy farmer was not allowed to *sell* us milk, but she was only too
happy to give us milk, fresh from the refrigerated tank in the milking
parlour where it was stored until the tanker lorry came round. It was
unpasteurised, but it was guaranteed fresh - sometimes only an hour old.
I can remember taking a jug along and her filling it for me from the tank.

On 30/11/2023 16:31, Fredxx wrote:
> On 30/11/2023 16:03, alan_m wrote:
>> On 30/11/2023 13:18, nib wrote:
>>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 12:05:22 +0000, NY wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Milk to the doorstep possibly started to die off when in two adult
>> households both went to work during the day. Milk left on the doorstep
>> all day went off.
>
> Our deliveries were getting later and later in the day and so became
> useless for fresh milk for breakfast. I recall birds pecking through the
> foil top and getting some of the cream!
>
> I think it was well and truly killed off when supermarkets starting to
> sell milk at half the price due to the Milk Marketing Board being
> disenfranchised.

I'd gone over to buying milk from the supermarket back in the 80s, but
when I moved to a new-build house, a milkman came round touting for
business from the new customers.

He lasted a few weeks before everyone told him to stop delivering
because he could not deliver milk in time for people to have breakfast.
He also wanted each house to commit to a fixed number of pints on each
day, with no changes, which was ridiculous. He didn't deserve to stay in
business with customer service like that.

So different from the milkmen in Leeds and Wakefield in the 60s and 70s
when I was a child, for whom nothing was too much trouble.

On 2023-11-30, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 12:05:22 +0000, NY wrote:
>
>> On 30/11/2023 10:55, Scott wrote:
>>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 10:19:04 +0000, wasbit <wasbit@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 29/11/2023 17:45, NY wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> snip <
>>>>>
>>>>> The right answer would be for the whole of the UK to have
>>>>> standardised rules on a) bin colours, and b) what can go in each bin.
>>>>>
>>>> Already under consultation
>>>> -
>>>> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-plans-unveiled-to-boost-
> recycling
>>>
>>> No - that only applies to one corner of the UK :-)
>>
>> They need to bring back weekly collections (as opposed to one week
>> landfill and the next week recycling) to avoid people needing such large
>> bins. No matter how much you recycle, the *total* amount remains the
>> same. I've seen some people claiming that we should be producing less
>> waste, *even of a form that can be recycled*. With more and more good
>> being delivered by mail order, that's a lot of cardboard. Liquids (milk
>> etc) need to be delivered in some sort of container, whether it's
>> plastic or glass.
>
> Well... in my father's day on a dairy farm, the milk went out in churns
> in a motorcycle side-car and was measured out into the customer's
> containers. But yes, unlikely to work so well these days!
>
> nib

Unpasteurised milk is dangerous. I am nearing the octo mark, and can say that milk here, as in
the parts of Angland (!) I was in, that is the case as well. I had a
friend, a vet, that contacted brucelossis and was in pain for the rest
of his life. Not funny.

--
greymausg@mail.com
Death to the Influencers, hung, drawn and quartered is more than they deserve.
BringBack(Bonking)Boris..

On 2023-11-30, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On 30/11/2023 13:18, nib wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 12:05:22 +0000, NY wrote:
>
>
>
> Milk to the doorstep possibly started to die off when in two adult
> households both went to work during the day. Milk left on the doorstep
> all day went off.
>

Or the local sparrows discovered how to peck the tips from the bottles
and from that, how to peck through the cartons and let the milk spill.

I remember when I first worked in Newport, Gwent, in the mid '50s, it
was the first time that I saw housewives shopping before going to work.

--
greymausg@mail.com
Death to the Influencers, hung, drawn and quartered is more than they deserve.
BringBack(Bonking)Boris..

On 30/11/2023 17:02, Vir Campestris wrote:
> On 29/11/2023 17:45, NY wrote:
>>
>> The right answer would be for the whole of the UK to have standardised
>> rules on a) bin colours, and b) what can go in each bin.
>>
> <snip>
>
> Forcing every council in the country to re-issue all the bins to a
> standard set of colours would be enormously expensive. That ship has
> sailed.

Some areas don't have bins! Plastic sacks are easier to collect when
parked vehicles are nose to tail on both sides of the road. Around my
way a few refuse collectors on foot collect the sacks and pile them high
every 10 houses or so. The refuse vehicle comes along, stops at each
pile where they are swiftly thrown in the back. This method also has the
advantage of the refuse truck only blocking narrow roads for the minimum
of time.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 29-Nov-23 22:15, Tim Streater wrote:
> Round here the supermarkets accept plastic wrappers for recycling, although
> few people seem to have noticed. You put your crisp packets and similar
> plastic in a plastic bag (such as your loo rolls come in) and dump that in a
> container at Tesco or Morrisons (Sainsbury has one too but it's too small so
> always full).

You missed a step.
Before recycling those plastic wrappers, you need to scrutinise each one
(reading glasses and good light definitely needed) to find and
read/decipher the recycling instructions. Many say "Do not recycle".

--
Sam Plusnet

On 30-Nov-23 10:40, Theo wrote:
> wasbit <wasbit@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> On 29/11/2023 17:45, NY wrote:
>>>
>>> snip <
>> >
>>> The right answer would be for the whole of the UK to have standardised
>>> rules on a) bin colours, and b) what can go in each bin.
>>>
>>
>> Already under consultation
>> - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-plans-unveiled-to-boost-recycling
>
> "It's complicated":
> https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/consistency-in-household-and-business-recycling-in-england/outcome/government-response
>
> but note it says nothing about bin colours. Also that 'plastic' doesn't
> mean tossing in any plastic, it means the following:
>
> " plastic bottles made of polyethylene terephthalate (PET, including
> amorphous, recycled PET), polypropylene (PP) and high-density polyethylene
> (HDPE)
>
> pots, tubs and trays made of PET (including amorphous, recycled and
> crystalline PET), PP (including expanded PP) and polyethylene (PE)
>
> PE and PP plastic tubes larger than 50mm x 50mm
>
> cartons for food, drink and other liquids, including aseptic and chilled
> cartons
>
> plastic film packaging and plastic bags made of mono-polyethylene
> (mono-PE), mono-polypropylene (mono-PP) and mixed polyolefins PE and PP,
> including those metallised through vacuum or vapour deposition (to be
> included from 31 March 2027) "
>
>
> The devil will be in the funding requirements since local authorities have
> no money to spare, so it's only if central government provides enough
> funding. Otherwise LAs are limited to recycling that waste which they can
> sell commercially, something which is extremely marginal based on local
> costs and volatile global prices.

My understanding was that central government doesn't supply funding for
this work, they just fine the Local Authorities if they fail to meet the
targets. Stick, with not a carrot in sight.

--
Sam Plusnet

On 30-Nov-23 6:56, sid wrote:
> Burn it in a garden incincerator, if you live in the country.

Ask not what you can do for your neighbours.
Ask what your neighbours will do to you in revenge.

The local chapel here is well known for its good works and charitable
actions. It's also the worst neighbour we've had in many years.
(Bonfires being one of the major irritants.)

--
Sam Plusnet

In article <kcqdnabDr5FPU_X4nZ2dnZfqn_udnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>,
NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
> On 30/11/2023 16:31, Fredxx wrote:
> > On 30/11/2023 16:03, alan_m wrote:
> >> On 30/11/2023 13:18, nib wrote:
> >>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 12:05:22 +0000, NY wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Milk to the doorstep possibly started to die off when in two adult
> >> households both went to work during the day. Milk left on the doorstep
> >> all day went off.
> >
> > Our deliveries were getting later and later in the day and so became
> > useless for fresh milk for breakfast. I recall birds pecking through
> > the foil top and getting some of the cream!
> >
> > I think it was well and truly killed off when supermarkets starting to
> > sell milk at half the price due to the Milk Marketing Board being
> > disenfranchised.

> I'd gone over to buying milk from the supermarket back in the 80s, but
> when I moved to a new-build house, a milkman came round touting for
> business from the new customers.

> He lasted a few weeks before everyone told him to stop delivering
> because he could not deliver milk in time for people to have breakfast.
> He also wanted each house to commit to a fixed number of pints on each
> day, with no changes, which was ridiculous. He didn't deserve to stay in
> business with customer service like that.

I suspect his employer was responsible for those rules, not he milkman
himself.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 29 Nov 2023 22:15:16 GMT, Tim Streater <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:

>On 29 Nov 2023 at 17:45:07 GMT, "NY" <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> It's rubbish. I want to throw it away.
>
>If it's recyclable then it's not rubbish. Putting it in the correct bin is a
>trivial matter.
>

Oh were that true!

Even if you can find the type of plastic/paper/foil/wrapping that you
are dealing with then finding out if your council handles it is
another problem.

Our council still has no mention of envelopes/window envelopes on
their website for instance.

And I'd wager that our recycle bin ends up in landfill or gets burnt
in the local heat producing incinerator anyway.

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

On 30/11/2023 18:49, AnthonyL wrote:
> On 29 Nov 2023 22:15:16 GMT, Tim Streater <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 29 Nov 2023 at 17:45:07 GMT, "NY" <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>> It's rubbish. I want to throw it away.
>>
>> If it's recyclable then it's not rubbish. Putting it in the correct bin is a
>> trivial matter.
>>
>
> Oh were that true!
>
> Even if you can find the type of plastic/paper/foil/wrapping that you
> are dealing with then finding out if your council handles it is
> another problem.
>
> Our council still has no mention of envelopes/window envelopes on
> their website for instance.
>
> And I'd wager that our recycle bin ends up in landfill or gets burnt
> in the local heat producing incinerator anyway.
>
>

Many food packing is mixed plastic+film. Often this cannot be easily
recycled and may just go for incineration even if put into a recycling
bin/sack. The same may be true of plastic bottles where the top is a
different plastic to the bottle. I note that the tops on plastic milk
bottles have changed in the past months and all types of milk have now
got white semi transparent screw tops.

I've written before on this, but I once watched the contents of a bottle
bank being emptied. The public had diligently separated the glass into
clear and coloured. The clear container was first lifted and emptied
into the back of a truck and then coloured containers were then lifted
and emptied, mixing the clear and coloured glass.

My local pavement rubbish pavement collection now allows any type of
(unbroken) glass to be added to the same sack as metal and plastic for
recycling.

But, my local tip no longer seems to have a dedicated plastic skip and
people are instructed to put plastic into the general waste (landfill?)
skip.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 30 Nov 2023 at 18:49:31 GMT, "AnthonyL" <AnthonyL> wrote:

> On 29 Nov 2023 22:15:16 GMT, Tim Streater <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 29 Nov 2023 at 17:45:07 GMT, "NY" <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>> It's rubbish. I want to throw it away.
>>
>> If it's recyclable then it's not rubbish. Putting it in the correct bin is a
>> trivial matter.
>>
>
> Oh were that true!
>
> Even if you can find the type of plastic/paper/foil/wrapping that you
> are dealing with then finding out if your council handles it is
> another problem.
>
> Our council still has no mention of envelopes/window envelopes on
> their website for instance.

Put the window envelopes in with paper.

> And I'd wager that our recycle bin ends up in landfill or gets burnt
> in the local heat producing incinerator anyway.

Better burnt than landfill.

--
"Please stop telling us what you feel. Please stop telling us what your intuition is. Your intuitive feelings are of no interest whatsoever, and nor are mine. I don't give a bugger what you feel, or what I feel. I want to know what the evidence shows." -- Richard Dawkins

On 11/30/2023 1:33 PM, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 29-Nov-23 22:15, Tim Streater wrote:
>> Round here the supermarkets accept plastic wrappers for recycling, although
>> few people seem to have noticed. You put your crisp packets and similar
>> plastic in a plastic bag (such as your loo rolls come in) and dump that in a
>> container at Tesco or Morrisons (Sainsbury has one too but it's too small so
>> always full).
>
> You missed a step.
> Before recycling those plastic wrappers, you need to scrutinise each one (reading glasses and good light definitely needed) to find and read/decipher the recycling instructions.  Many say "Do not recycle".
>

The plastic recycling facilities are quite sophisticated.
Nobody reads the number and triangle on the bag.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921344922000659

The material on the belt, circulates in a circle around the plant.
and the mass of material on the belt is gradually reduced, as
some goes into the "good" bin, and a lot goes into the "bad" bin.
If the wrong kind of crisps packet goes into some wheelie, it's
not a problem. It is still a labour intensive activity, even
with the lasers and other analytical devices (the automation is
not good enough, to handle every calamity).

There was a short video on telly, about our plant, so there
were pictures of it running and the stuff going around in circles.
I don't really know, if by mass that is an effective diverter of
waste. The plant cannot work on a load for too long, before it
must be purged and another load of plastics is then considered.
The smaller your plastic pieces, the more likely they are
to go into the landfill.

Paul

On 30-Nov-23 22:51, Paul wrote:
> On 11/30/2023 1:33 PM, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> On 29-Nov-23 22:15, Tim Streater wrote:
>>> Round here the supermarkets accept plastic wrappers for recycling, although
>>> few people seem to have noticed. You put your crisp packets and similar
>>> plastic in a plastic bag (such as your loo rolls come in) and dump that in a
>>> container at Tesco or Morrisons (Sainsbury has one too but it's too small so
>>> always full).
>>
>> You missed a step.
>> Before recycling those plastic wrappers, you need to scrutinise each one (reading glasses and good light definitely needed) to find and read/decipher the recycling instructions.  Many say "Do not recycle".
>>
>
> The plastic recycling facilities are quite sophisticated.
> Nobody reads the number and triangle on the bag.
>
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921344922000659
>
> The material on the belt, circulates in a circle around the plant.
> and the mass of material on the belt is gradually reduced, as
> some goes into the "good" bin, and a lot goes into the "bad" bin.
> If the wrong kind of crisps packet goes into some wheelie, it's
> not a problem. It is still a labour intensive activity, even
> with the lasers and other analytical devices (the automation is
> not good enough, to handle every calamity).
>
> There was a short video on telly, about our plant, so there
> were pictures of it running and the stuff going around in circles.
> I don't really know, if by mass that is an effective diverter of
> waste. The plant cannot work on a load for too long, before it
> must be purged and another load of plastics is then considered.
> The smaller your plastic pieces, the more likely they are
> to go into the landfill.

"The plastic recycling facilities".
I'm sure that's an accurate description of one such plant. Should we
expect it to be true of _every_ plant in the UK?

--
Sam Plusnet

On 11/30/2023 7:38 PM, Sam Plusnet wrote:

> "The plastic recycling facilities".
> I'm sure that's an accurate description of one such plant. 
> Should we expect it to be true of _every_ plant in the UK?
>

I never expected ours to have any automation, so I was
surprised at the article.

Ours used to have human sorters, because I was at some
plant, and I was greeted by a whole crowd of people in
outfits, sorting stuff.

The plastic plant has fewer humans, but not getting close
to zero quite yet.

I think there is a lot of copy-cat activity, so if one
region jumps on a bandwagon, others follow. Especially
if one of the waste ID devices is relatively cheap to make.

The incentive here, is the cost of "building a new hole
in the ground". Landfills are expensive. You have to dig
them out and line them, to contain materials leaching
from the pile. Our next one will cost around 450 million.
Which is a lot, for a hole in the ground. The plastics
sorting facility is likely to be in a different league
on price. Most of it is conveyor belts. We deflect material
from the landfill, to avoid paying that price.

Since there are no TV articles on the other sorting plants,
I doubt those are nearly as fancy. The paper plant, it "grades"
the materials. Cardboard is baled, as one type of output.
Recycled typing paper, the nice white stuff, it might actually
have some value. Otherwise, one of the problems with the paper
facility, is nobody wants to buy the output. All the bog roll here,
is made from new trees, for example. They have experimented
in the past, with recycled content, but the latest report is
they are using new trees for bog roll.

For any Al or Cu, there is a ready market. That sells well.
People steal it out of the bins, before it even gets to
the facility.

Paul

On 30/11/2023 18:13, alan_m wrote:
> Some areas don't have bins!  Plastic sacks are easier to collect

....by urban foxes, who rip them to shreds.

--
“People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them,
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them.
Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s
agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of
one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”

Paul Krugman

On 01/12/2023 08:45, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 30/11/2023 18:13, alan_m wrote:
>> Some areas don't have bins!  Plastic sacks are easier to collect
>
> ...by urban foxes, who rip them to shreds.
>

Only if they contain food or used nappies!

Waste food is collected in small buckets with a lockable lid. The bin
man comes along with a large wheelie bin and empties each of the small
buckets into it.

Very little waste food is put out for collection around my way.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 29/11/2023 17:45, NY wrote:

> The right answer would be for the whole of the UK to have standardised
> rules on a) bin colours, and b) what can go in each bin.

a: I agree, but never going to happen (without junking millions of bins)

b: I agree, and they need to get on with that.

On 01 Dec 2023 at 09:02:29 GMT, "alan_m" <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> On 01/12/2023 08:45, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 30/11/2023 18:13, alan_m wrote:
>>> Some areas don't have bins! Plastic sacks are easier to collect
>>
>> ...by urban foxes, who rip them to shreds.
>
> Only if they contain food or used nappies!
>
> Waste food is collected in small buckets with a lockable lid. The bin
> man comes along with a large wheelie bin and empties each of the small
> buckets into it.
>
> Very little waste food is put out for collection around my way.

Stuff that's compostable here, such as spud peelings, gets composted. Other
food waste (e.g. cooked or bones) is wrapped up in newspaper and put out
weekly in the small lockable bin along with whatever type of large bin is due
this week. I didn't put out the landfill bin this week as it has next to
nothing in it. So it'll go out in two weeks time, most likely.

Personally I don't care too much if the blue bin, that has
metal/glass/plastic, has all its plastic sent to an incinerator, provided that
is generating energy. That at least means two usages for the plastic and also
means it's not gone into landfill.

--
The reason you think government is the solution is because you think freedom is the problem. But the truth is that government ensures that the most evil, ruthless people end up in control, because the state is a single point of failure, and a high-value target of corruption.

Alan Lovejoy

AnthonyL wrote:

> Tim Streater wrote:
>
>> NY wrote:
>>
>>> It's rubbish. I want to throw it away.
>>
>> If it's recyclable then it's not rubbish. Putting it in the correct bin is a
>> trivial matter.
>
> Oh were that true!
>
> Even if you can find the type of plastic/paper/foil/wrapping that you
> are dealing with then finding out if your council handles it is
> another problem.

I'm sure most here know about the "mobius" symbol, with/without the
various letter/number combinations for plastic/paper/card.

<https://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2021/05/CLI305.recycling_symbols.Mobius_Loop_Symbol.jpg>

But I think many people assume the "green dot" is another symbol to say
something can be recycled?

<https://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2021/05/CLI305.recycling_symbols.Green_Dot_Symbol.jpg>

when often it means the exact opposite.