On 30/11/2023 10:41, Brian Gaff wrote:

> I have a belling and its never caused any issues at all. I'm sure radiant
> heat heaters are still about, but who remembers the old bar fires with the
> resistance wire wound on the outside of a ceramic bar with scant guard to
> protect it.

People knew not to touch the bars as they knew not to stick their hand
in a coal fire.

--
Max Demian

On Fri, 01 Dec 2023 12:44:12 +0000, Max Demian wrote:

> On 30/11/2023 21:13, nib wrote:
>
>> Having just junked my old halogen 2*400W because the cheap plastic case
>> was going brittle and cracking, I found a 2*500W "quartz" heater in
>> B&Q.
>
> Why are heaters halogen anyway? I thought the idea was that a halogen
> lamp is more efficient and/or the filament lasts longer at the higher
> temperature. A heater only has to be red hot.

Just in terms of making you feel warm in a colder space, halogen is
really directional and immediate, I suppose more radiant and less
convection than a red-glowing element.

For heating a space I see no advantage.

nib

On Wednesday, 29 November 2023 at 18:29:21 UTC, Paul wrote:
> On 11/29/2023 8:08 AM, RJH wrote:
> > On 29 Nov 2023 at 12:32:58 GMT, Andy Burns wrote:
> >
> >> David Brooks wrote:
> >>
> >>> RJH wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Something like this:
> >>>> <https://www.bjselectrical.co.uk/swan-s454-20003870.html>
> >>>> although not that
> >>>
> >>> This any good?
> >>> <https://amazon.co.uk/dp/B07HHMV54F>
> >> That's exactly not what he's looking for!
> >
> > Indeed - as mentioned in the OP. The same thing is coming up as a branded item
> > though:
> >
> > https://www.daewooelectricals.com/cooling-heating-c14/heating-c56/all-heaters-c62/daewoo-1200w-2-bar-ceramic-heater-p632
> >
> > Wondering if they've improved/de-rated the design - ISTR my original was 1400w
> >
> That item has a user manual.
>
> https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/A1H0raLXj6L.pdf
>
> What I would do, is:
>
> 1) Only buy electric fires with low/high setting capability.
> 2) Buy two of the electric fires.
> 3) Operate each electric fire on low.
> 4) Enjoy longer service life.
> Two fires on low, equals same heat output as one fire on high.

sometimes, sometimes not

> I would not buy a fire with just one setting, because
> it runs on high all the time.

some run on low all the time - not many these days

> The power the element draws is variable.
>
> 1) A 1200W element will draw 1500W for the first 10 seconds.
> The surface temperature of the element matters.
> The rating on the tin ("1200W") only happens once the
> element is glowing-warm.
>
> You may not think this matters, but sometimes when something
> trips in your electrical panel, it is traceable to this.

well, you'd need a very borderline setup for it to be any issue. Not seen a wiring job that bad in decades.

> Incandescent light bulbs, when we were using those, those
> draw 2x the rated power, when the filament is cold. It is only
> when a 60W incandescent bulb is hot, that it draws... 60W.

more like 8 times the power

> 2) The 1200W rating is only if mains is "nominal". If your mains
> is higher than normal, and is high all the time, this causes the
> fire to dissipate more than 1200W, and potentially shortening
> the service life of the elements.
>
> It's because of these observations, at my house, you can "only"
> run a fire on low. (My mains is high enough, it blew my AV receiver!)

either it was faulty for other reasons or your supply is faulty

> This provides a bit of engineering margin while using such things.
>
> I studied my fire, on low, using a Kill-O-Watt meter. That's how
> I could see the excess consumption when cold.

I certainly would not rely on quick changing readings on things like that

> Running the fire on
> high, is too much for the Kill-O-Watt meter and would melt the
> solder around the shunt inside.

that's one way to know it's junk quality

> the Kill-O-Watt meter has a
> readout for mains voltage, so you can know what that voltage
> is right now. You can read the voltage with the Kill-O-Watt
> before even plugging the fire in.
>
> Paul

On Wednesday, 29 November 2023 at 18:56:12 UTC, Paul wrote:
> On 11/29/2023 11:09 AM, Robin wrote:
> > On 29/11/2023 14:24, John Rumm wrote:
> >> On 29/11/2023 04:31, RJH wrote:
> >>> Anyone know a source for a basic 2 bar-type radiant electric fire? Something
> >>> like this:
> >>>
> >>> https://www.bjselectrical.co.uk/swan-s454-20003870.html
> >>>
> >>> . . . although not that - I had one and first a bar failed, than it melted the
> >>> fixings with the remaining bar.
> >>>
> >>
> >> They do seem to have gone out of fashion[1] - the wall mounted patio heater style are still available. Some of those are still traditional radiant rather than halogen. TLC have one dimplex listed - but "sold out"
> >>
> >>
> >> [1] Might be a conservation of energy legislation thing...
> >>
> >
> > IIRC the EU rules on local space heaters in 2015 pretty well ignored electric resistance heaters. And I think they proposed to add mandatory labelling to them for the new regs due this year but no more.
> >
> > I'd suspect more the production cost of winding an element with Nichrome wire compared with the cost of more modern alternatives.
> >
> > I'd also just wondered about the electrical safety for traditional fires in some jurisdictions. Not seen IP ratings for them :)
> >
> The addition of the "anti-tipping switch" on the bottom
> of the units, is about as close to a "safety miracle"
> as you're going to get. That will probably avoid a
> few unnecessary house fires.
>
> Some adverts, don't even mention the anti-tipping switch.
> If you sit the fire on your carpet, the soft carpet may
> not be sufficient to depress the switch and enable the unit.
> Then you need to sit a flat board under the unit,
> so there is something solid enough to depress the switch.
>
> As for safety, you are as likely to have an event related
> to cord, plug, wiring, as for the fire itself to ignite something.

sorry but that's not true at all. Where are you, China?

> It's a high current device and all the electrical connections
> need to be tight.
>
> Paul

On Thursday, 30 November 2023 at 18:03:26 UTC, RJH wrote:
> On 30 Nov 2023 at 16:56:30 GMT, Vir Campestris wrote:
>
> > On 29/11/2023 18:29, Paul wrote:
> > <snip>
> >> What I would do, is:
> >>
> >> 1) Only buy electric fires with low/high setting capability.
> >> 2) Buy two of the electric fires.
> >> 3) Operate each electric fire on low.
> >> 4) Enjoy longer service life.
> >> Two fires on low, equals same heat output as one fire on high.
> > </snip>
> >
> > YMMV.
> >
> > I have a halogen type radiant on the wall next to me now (it heats me,
> > not the rest of my garden office).
> >
> > It's got three heat settings:
> >
> > One bar
> > Two bars
> > Three bars.
> >
> > The first bar will when it reaches its life regardless of when the other
> > elements were turned on.
> >
> Indeed - lost the first bar on my one of those recently. But too bright for
> the lounge where I'd like the 2 bar electric fire.
>
> Coming round to the notion that this is the best that I'm going to get:
>
> https://www.daewooelectricals.com/cooling-heating-c14/heating-c56/all-heaters-c62/daewoo-1200w-2-bar-ceramic-heater-p632

I'm not sure how you'd get better. If you found a well guarded oldie it wouldn't have an anti-tip switch.

On 01/12/2023 12:45, Max Demian wrote:
> On 30/11/2023 10:41, Brian Gaff wrote:
>
>> I have a belling and its never caused any issues at all. I'm sure
>> radiant
>> heat heaters are still about, but who remembers the old bar fires with
>> the
>> resistance wire wound on the outside of a ceramic bar with scant guard to
>> protect it.
>
> People knew not to touch the bars as they knew not to stick their hand
> in a coal fire.
>

Its the toddlers and people tripping over the cable or the unit
itself that was the issue. Plus using them too close to
furniture or curtains and causing a fire.

On Sat, 2 Dec 2023 12:29:18 +0000, Andrew <Andrew97d@btinternet.com>
wrote:

>On 01/12/2023 12:45, Max Demian wrote:
>> On 30/11/2023 10:41, Brian Gaff wrote:
>>
>>> I have a belling and its never caused any issues at all. I'm sure
>>> radiant
>>> heat heaters are still about, but who remembers the old bar fires with
>>> the
>>> resistance wire wound on the outside of a ceramic bar with scant guard to
>>> protect it.
>>
>> People knew not to touch the bars as they knew not to stick their hand
>> in a coal fire.
>>
>
>Its the toddlers and people tripping over the cable or the unit
>itself that was the issue. Plus using them too close to
>furniture or curtains and causing a fire.

When I was little, about 7 or 8 y/o I suppose, I was dismantling a
Meccano structure while sitting on the floor with one of those
electric fires with wire-wound elements in front of me. As I loosened
the last nut and bolt on a long straight, it fell forward into the
fire. Loud bang and a flash; bit of molten something hit the reflector
behind the element and melted a small hole. Don't remember what
happened next, but I assume a fuse went somewhere and mother probably
came rushing in, but luckily I was quite OK.

--
Chris

On 12/1/2023 1:33 PM, Animal wrote:
> On Wednesday, 29 November 2023 at 18:56:12 UTC, Paul wrote:
>> On 11/29/2023 11:09 AM, Robin wrote:
>>> On 29/11/2023 14:24, John Rumm wrote:
>>>> On 29/11/2023 04:31, RJH wrote:
>>>>> Anyone know a source for a basic 2 bar-type radiant electric fire? Something
>>>>> like this:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.bjselectrical.co.uk/swan-s454-20003870.html
>>>>>
>>>>> . . . although not that - I had one and first a bar failed, than it melted the
>>>>> fixings with the remaining bar.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They do seem to have gone out of fashion[1] - the wall mounted patio heater style are still available. Some of those are still traditional radiant rather than halogen. TLC have one dimplex listed - but "sold out"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [1] Might be a conservation of energy legislation thing...
>>>>
>>>
>>> IIRC the EU rules on local space heaters in 2015 pretty well ignored electric resistance heaters. And I think they proposed to add mandatory labelling to them for the new regs due this year but no more.
>>>
>>> I'd suspect more the production cost of winding an element with Nichrome wire compared with the cost of more modern alternatives.
>>>
>>> I'd also just wondered about the electrical safety for traditional fires in some jurisdictions. Not seen IP ratings for them :)
>>>
>> The addition of the "anti-tipping switch" on the bottom
>> of the units, is about as close to a "safety miracle"
>> as you're going to get. That will probably avoid a
>> few unnecessary house fires.
>>
>> Some adverts, don't even mention the anti-tipping switch.
>> If you sit the fire on your carpet, the soft carpet may
>> not be sufficient to depress the switch and enable the unit.
>> Then you need to sit a flat board under the unit,
>> so there is something solid enough to depress the switch.
>>
>> As for safety, you are as likely to have an event related
>> to cord, plug, wiring, as for the fire itself to ignite something.
>
> sorry but that's not true at all. Where are you, China?

while the cord is rubberized, the environment you use it
in, can roll over the cord and damage it.