In article <utede4r3z42.dlg@example1357.net>, mechanic
<mechanic@example.net> scribeth thus
>On Sun, 21 May 2023 15:40:39 +0100, Pamela wrote:
>
>> Reconditioned Quad 33/303s certainly go fo a pretty penny. This
>> dealer is asking £700, although bargain hunters can probably find
>> them for half the price. I'm not sure I would pay that.
>>
>> https://audiogold.co.uk/product/quad-33-303/
>

>They have other interesting offers, like the Audiolab 8000A for 750
>UKP. The refurb details are impressive.

A Blinking good unit but way overpriced thats more then what they
originally cost!...

--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

In article <64660768.100172296@news.eternal-september.org>, Don Pearce
<spam@spam.com> scribeth thus
>On Wed, 17 May 2023 12:21:18 +0100, mechanic <mechanic@example.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 17 May 2023 10:16:48 +0100, Brian Gaff wrote:
>>
>>> Now what is so special then? They were never that price when new.
>>> Is this a case of money for old rope if you can make something
>>> look authentic?
>>
>>It's what's called a cult-following. Lots of stuff about these on
>>t'internet e.g.
>>https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/falcon-acoustics-bbc-ls35a/
>>the Wiki article is good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LS3/5A
>>
>>If you have a pair, sell them for the best money you can get. As you
>>get older your hearing won't be up to needing the best hifi anyway.
>
>They were never designed to be Hi Fi. They were monitor speakers and
>designed to emphasize the kind of errors that sound engineers were
>prone to. I would not use these as domestic speakers.
>
>d

They weren't designed to emphasise anything, they were intended to be as
accurate as possible in the situations they were to be used in such as
mobile outside broadcast vans, TV and Radio.

In studios the LS8/A was more the thing but their bloody big, you
wouldn't have room to fart with them in an OB van!

They are and have been a very good unit when used within their
limitations like most all speakers.

We did some tests once with a single male (Human) speaker the one that
Peter W of QUAD used to and I think B&W s did the same, have a person
speaking then stop and let the speakers carry on, their excellent at
male voice:)

FWIW never had a female around at the time women never seem to be
interested in that sort of thing;(..
--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

In article <u44mln$7a66$2@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> scribeth thus
>On 18/05/2023 09:07, Tim Streater wrote:
>> On 18 May 2023 at 09:02:32 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
>> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 17/05/2023 21:38, Tim Streater wrote:
>>>> On 17 May 2023 at 20:02:00 BST, "Adrian Caspersz" <email@here.invalid>
>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 17/05/2023 13:27, Tim Streater wrote:
>>>>>> On 17 May 2023 at 13:01:21 BST, "Adrian Caspersz" <email@here.invalid>
>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bluetooth speakers mainly. Streaming.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's streaming or bluetooth got to do with the sound quality that the
>>>>>> speaker will generate? You can use bluetooth or streaming to supply audio
>to a
>>>>>> tin box but it won't sound very good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A bluetooth speaker is a popular current replacement for a Hifi.
>>>>
>>>> A combination of decent speakers with a quality amp is going to be rare in
>>>> such a device, which is why one might stick to separate speakers, separate
>>>> amp.
>>>>
>>>> Although I suppose it's possible someone might do a proper job, but not much
>>>> change out of £5k I wouldn't have thought.
>>>>
>>> Amplifiers are now at the point where they are more or less 'perfect'
>>
>> There wasn't a lot wrong with the Quad 33/303 combo I bought in 1970. No
>> optical or other digital input, of course. Especially when paired with the IMF
>> RSPM I bought in 1974. Not that I could tell, these days, of course, but I
>> sure could then.
>>
>Quad 303 was relative junk actually. Had a lot of crossover distortion
>especially at HF. Many of its contemporaries were in fact better.

Interesting you should say that as the early versions of the 303 did
have biasing problems that were corrected and improved in later versions
>
>Things got better with the advent of audio power FETS and/or class AAB
>designs.

Well expect they did after all the 303 started in what *1967?.

>As transistor speeds went up the problems of maintaining high levels of
>feedback at high frequencies without instability, lessened.
>
>
>Today even the class D's will beat a Quad 303

I expect they may well do that!
>
>
* There is a 303 Dinosaurus that sits under this bench that powers the
computer speakers, it was manufactured in 1967 new caps some other small
changes and I expect it'd last another 50 years if needed;)..
--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

In article <kcl208F484nU2@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
<trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>On 17/05/2023 10:01 pm, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>> On 16/05/2023 23:39, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>
>>> **It has to be said:
>>>
>>> The LS3/5A is the most over-rated speaker system ever released. They
>>> are just an average performer.
>>>
>>
>> To be fair, by definition all hi-fi is overrated.
>
>**No, it is not.
>
>There are many examples of nonsensically over-rated products available
>in the hi fi biz. The LS3/5A is one of them. We all need loudspeakers to
>listen to audio (unless you happen to use headphones, of course).
>
>I've listened to the LS3/5A many times (different manufacturers). I hear
>the same problems with all of them. They are, quite simply, highly
>inaccurate speakers. IE: They are not high fidelity speakers.
>
>
Can you say where they are inaccurate bearing in mind their design
limitations and the purpose for which they were designed?..

** BTW Where old Phill A FUCKING GONE?,, THE POMMY BARSTARDS HAVEN'T
HEAD FRON HIM THE OLD GIT A WHILE!
--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

On Thu, 25 May 2023 04:53:56 +1000, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <kcl208F484nU2@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>> On 17/05/2023 10:01 pm, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>>> On 16/05/2023 23:39, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>
>>>> **It has to be said:
>>>>
>>>> The LS3/5A is the most over-rated speaker system ever released. They
>>>> are just an average performer.
>>>>
>>>
>>> To be fair, by definition all hi-fi is overrated.
>>
>> **No, it is not.
>>
>> There are many examples of nonsensically over-rated products available
>> in the hi fi biz. The LS3/5A is one of them. We all need loudspeakers to
>> listen to audio (unless you happen to use headphones, of course).
>>
>> I've listened to the LS3/5A many times (different manufacturers). I hear
>> the same problems with all of them. They are, quite simply, highly
>> inaccurate speakers. IE: They are not high fidelity speakers.
>>
>>
> Can you say where they are inaccurate bearing in mind their design
> limitations and the purpose for which they were designed?..

> BTW Where old Phill A FUCKING GONE?,,

He hardly ever posts anymore. He did just last week in aus.aviation

> THE POMMY BARSTARDS HAVEN'T
> HEAD FRON HIM THE OLD GIT A WHILE!

On 25/05/2023 4:53 am, tony sayer wrote:
> In article <kcl208F484nU2@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>> On 17/05/2023 10:01 pm, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>>> On 16/05/2023 23:39, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>
>>>> **It has to be said:
>>>>
>>>> The LS3/5A is the most over-rated speaker system ever released. They
>>>> are just an average performer.
>>>>
>>>
>>> To be fair, by definition all hi-fi is overrated.
>>
>> **No, it is not.
>>
>> There are many examples of nonsensically over-rated products available
>> in the hi fi biz. The LS3/5A is one of them. We all need loudspeakers to
>> listen to audio (unless you happen to use headphones, of course).
>>
>> I've listened to the LS3/5A many times (different manufacturers). I hear
>> the same problems with all of them. They are, quite simply, highly
>> inaccurate speakers. IE: They are not high fidelity speakers.
>>
>>
> Can you say where they are inaccurate bearing in mind their design
> limitations and the purpose for which they were designed?..

**Yes, I can.

>
> ** BTW Where old Phill A FUCKING GONE?,, THE POMMY BARSTARDS HAVEN'T
> HEAD FRON HIM THE OLD GIT A WHILE!

**He is around. He has contributed to this thread.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

tony sayer wrote:
--------------------------
>
>
> We did some tests once with a single male (Human) speaker the one that
> Peter W of QUAD used to and I think B&W s did the same, have a person
> speaking then stop and let the speakers carry on, their excellent at
> male voice:)
>

** When the ESL63 was released, Peter W demonstrated to an audience the principle behind the design by holding a frame in front of his face that had diaphragm plastic material stretched over it while he spoke.

I recall that it was Raymond Cooke of KEF who used his own voice to demonstrate to accuracy of the then new reference 104 model.

...... Phil

In article <kd790fFoooU1@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
<trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>On 25/05/2023 4:53 am, tony sayer wrote:
>> In article <kcl208F484nU2@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>>> On 17/05/2023 10:01 pm, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>>>> On 16/05/2023 23:39, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> **It has to be said:
>>>>>
>>>>> The LS3/5A is the most over-rated speaker system ever released. They
>>>>> are just an average performer.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To be fair, by definition all hi-fi is overrated.
>>>
>>> **No, it is not.
>>>
>>> There are many examples of nonsensically over-rated products available
>>> in the hi fi biz. The LS3/5A is one of them. We all need loudspeakers to
>>> listen to audio (unless you happen to use headphones, of course).
>>>
>>> I've listened to the LS3/5A many times (different manufacturers). I hear
>>> the same problems with all of them. They are, quite simply, highly
>>> inaccurate speakers. IE: They are not high fidelity speakers.
>>>
>>>
>> Can you say where they are inaccurate bearing in mind their design
>> limitations and the purpose for which they were designed?..
>
>**Yes, I can.

Well go on then!..
>
>>
>> ** BTW Where old Phill A FUCKING GONE?,, THE POMMY BARSTARDS HAVEN'T
>> HEAD FRON HIM THE OLD GIT A WHILE!
>
>**He is around. He has contributed to this thread.
>
Yes so i noticed!..
--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

On 26/05/2023 6:03 am, tony sayer wrote:
> In article <kd790fFoooU1@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>> On 25/05/2023 4:53 am, tony sayer wrote:
>>> In article <kcl208F484nU2@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>>>> On 17/05/2023 10:01 pm, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>>>>> On 16/05/2023 23:39, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> **It has to be said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The LS3/5A is the most over-rated speaker system ever released. They
>>>>>> are just an average performer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To be fair, by definition all hi-fi is overrated.
>>>>
>>>> **No, it is not.
>>>>
>>>> There are many examples of nonsensically over-rated products available
>>>> in the hi fi biz. The LS3/5A is one of them. We all need loudspeakers to
>>>> listen to audio (unless you happen to use headphones, of course).
>>>>
>>>> I've listened to the LS3/5A many times (different manufacturers). I hear
>>>> the same problems with all of them. They are, quite simply, highly
>>>> inaccurate speakers. IE: They are not high fidelity speakers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Can you say where they are inaccurate bearing in mind their design
>>> limitations and the purpose for which they were designed?..
>>
>> **Yes, I can.
>
> Well go on then!..

**I believe that I answered your question, precisely, succinctly and
economically.

The LS3/5A is being sold to people for domestic purposes. In that
situation, they sound like crap. Expensive crap.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

In article <kda9gmFev7lU1@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
<trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>On 26/05/2023 6:03 am, tony sayer wrote:
>> In article <kd790fFoooU1@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>>> On 25/05/2023 4:53 am, tony sayer wrote:
>>>> In article <kcl208F484nU2@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
>>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>>>>> On 17/05/2023 10:01 pm, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>>>>>> On 16/05/2023 23:39, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **It has to be said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The LS3/5A is the most over-rated speaker system ever released. They
>>>>>>> are just an average performer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To be fair, by definition all hi-fi is overrated.
>>>>>
>>>>> **No, it is not.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are many examples of nonsensically over-rated products available
>>>>> in the hi fi biz. The LS3/5A is one of them. We all need loudspeakers to
>>>>> listen to audio (unless you happen to use headphones, of course).
>>>>>
>>>>> I've listened to the LS3/5A many times (different manufacturers). I hear
>>>>> the same problems with all of them. They are, quite simply, highly
>>>>> inaccurate speakers. IE: They are not high fidelity speakers.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Can you say where they are inaccurate bearing in mind their design
>>>> limitations and the purpose for which they were designed?..
>>>
>>> **Yes, I can.
>>
>> Well go on then!..
>
>**I believe that I answered your question, precisely, succinctly and
>economically.

Yes, very economic precisely not answered!

Perhaps their not "tuneful" enough for you;?..

>The LS3/5A is being sold to people for domestic purposes. In that
>situation, they sound like crap. Expensive crap.
>
>

If you say so, who would argue with such logic;!

Can't say I know of anyone selling them in the UK apart from Stirling
broadcast?..
--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

On 31/05/2023 13:28, tony sayer wrote:
> In article <kda9gmFev7lU1@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>> On 26/05/2023 6:03 am, tony sayer wrote:
>>> In article <kd790fFoooU1@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>>>> On 25/05/2023 4:53 am, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>> In article <kcl208F484nU2@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
>>>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>>>>>> On 17/05/2023 10:01 pm, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>>>>>>> On 16/05/2023 23:39, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **It has to be said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The LS3/5A is the most over-rated speaker system ever released. They
>>>>>>>> are just an average performer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To be fair, by definition all hi-fi is overrated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **No, it is not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are many examples of nonsensically over-rated products available
>>>>>> in the hi fi biz. The LS3/5A is one of them. We all need loudspeakers to
>>>>>> listen to audio (unless you happen to use headphones, of course).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've listened to the LS3/5A many times (different manufacturers). I hear
>>>>>> the same problems with all of them. They are, quite simply, highly
>>>>>> inaccurate speakers. IE: They are not high fidelity speakers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Can you say where they are inaccurate bearing in mind their design
>>>>> limitations and the purpose for which they were designed?..
>>>>
>>>> **Yes, I can.
>>>
>>> Well go on then!..
>>
>> **I believe that I answered your question, precisely, succinctly and
>> economically.
>
> Yes, very economic precisely not answered!
>
> Perhaps their not "tuneful" enough for you;?..
>
>
>> The LS3/5A is being sold to people for domestic purposes. In that
>> situation, they sound like crap. Expensive crap.
>>
>>
>
> If you say so, who would argue with such logic;!
>
> Can't say I know of anyone selling them in the UK apart from Stirling
> broadcast?..

Well Tony if you've got any empty cabs, Ive got the KEF drive units

--
"First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your
oppressors."
- George Orwell

On Wed, 31 May 2023 13:39:36 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 31/05/2023 13:28, tony sayer wrote:
>> In article <kda9gmFev7lU1@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>>> On 26/05/2023 6:03 am, tony sayer wrote:
>>>> In article <kd790fFoooU1@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
>>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>>>>> On 25/05/2023 4:53 am, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>>> In article <kcl208F484nU2@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
>>>>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>>>>>>> On 17/05/2023 10:01 pm, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 16/05/2023 23:39, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> **It has to be said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The LS3/5A is the most over-rated speaker system ever released.
>>>>>>>>> They are just an average performer.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To be fair, by definition all hi-fi is overrated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **No, it is not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are many examples of nonsensically over-rated products
>>>>>>> available in the hi fi biz. The LS3/5A is one of them. We all need
>>>>>>> loudspeakers to listen to audio (unless you happen to use
>>>>>>> headphones, of course).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've listened to the LS3/5A many times (different manufacturers).
>>>>>>> I hear the same problems with all of them. They are, quite simply,
>>>>>>> highly inaccurate speakers. IE: They are not high fidelity
>>>>>>> speakers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you say where they are inaccurate bearing in mind their design
>>>>>> limitations and the purpose for which they were designed?..
>>>>>
>>>>> **Yes, I can.
>>>>
>>>> Well go on then!..
>>>
>>> **I believe that I answered your question, precisely, succinctly and
>>> economically.
>>
>> Yes, very economic precisely not answered!
>>
>> Perhaps their not "tuneful" enough for you;?..
>>
>>
>>> The LS3/5A is being sold to people for domestic purposes. In that
>>> situation, they sound like crap. Expensive crap.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> If you say so, who would argue with such logic;!
>>
>> Can't say I know of anyone selling them in the UK apart from Stirling
>> broadcast?..
>
> Well Tony if you've got any empty cabs, Ive got the KEF drive units

I have complete set KEFs, but operating in a living room they are wasted.
They sound ok in an anechoic chamber.

On 31/05/2023 10:28 pm, tony sayer wrote:
> In article <kda9gmFev7lU1@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>> On 26/05/2023 6:03 am, tony sayer wrote:
>>> In article <kd790fFoooU1@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>>>> On 25/05/2023 4:53 am, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>> In article <kcl208F484nU2@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
>>>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>>>>>> On 17/05/2023 10:01 pm, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>>>>>>> On 16/05/2023 23:39, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **It has to be said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The LS3/5A is the most over-rated speaker system ever released. They
>>>>>>>> are just an average performer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To be fair, by definition all hi-fi is overrated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **No, it is not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are many examples of nonsensically over-rated products available
>>>>>> in the hi fi biz. The LS3/5A is one of them. We all need loudspeakers to
>>>>>> listen to audio (unless you happen to use headphones, of course).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've listened to the LS3/5A many times (different manufacturers). I hear
>>>>>> the same problems with all of them. They are, quite simply, highly
>>>>>> inaccurate speakers. IE: They are not high fidelity speakers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Can you say where they are inaccurate bearing in mind their design
>>>>> limitations and the purpose for which they were designed?..
>>>>
>>>> **Yes, I can.
>>>
>>> Well go on then!..
>>
>> **I believe that I answered your question, precisely, succinctly and
>> economically.
>
> Yes, very economic precisely not answered!
>
> Perhaps their not "tuneful" enough for you;?..

**Nope. Just horribly inaccurate. They sound OK, for a cheap speaker.
Unfortunately, they're not cheap.

>
>
>> The LS3/5A is being sold to people for domestic purposes. In that
>> situation, they sound like crap. Expensive crap.
>>
>>
>
> If you say so, who would argue with such logic;!

**No need to argue. Just listen to them. Compare them with a known,
accurate speaker. The problems are instantly audible.

>
> Can't say I know of anyone selling them in the UK apart from Stirling
> broadcast?..

**OK.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

On 31 May 2023 at 23:23:51 BST, Trevor Wilson wrote:

>> Perhaps their not "tuneful" enough for you;?..
>
> **Nope. Just horribly inaccurate. They sound OK, for a cheap speaker.
> Unfortunately, they're not cheap.
>
>>
>>
>>> The LS3/5A is being sold to people for domestic purposes. In that
>>> situation, they sound like crap. Expensive crap.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> If you say so, who would argue with such logic;!
>
> **No need to argue. Just listen to them. Compare them with a known,
> accurate speaker. The problems are instantly audible.

'Accuracy' isn't necessarily a problem, and trying to achieve it - at least in
most domestic settings - is a fool's errand.

I'd suggest the main issue is how good they sound to you, in your listening
environment.

Of course such a measure can easily become coloured by perception, marketing,
reviews etc. But hey, if you enjoy the sound . . .

--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK

On 31/05/2023 23:23, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 31/05/2023 10:28 pm, tony sayer wrote:
>> In article <kda9gmFev7lU1@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>>> On 26/05/2023 6:03 am, tony sayer wrote:
>>>> In article <kd790fFoooU1@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
>>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>>>>> On 25/05/2023 4:53 am, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>>> In article <kcl208F484nU2@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
>>>>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>>>>>>> On 17/05/2023 10:01 pm, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 16/05/2023 23:39, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> **It has to be said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The LS3/5A is the most over-rated speaker system ever released.
>>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>>>> are just an average performer.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To be fair, by definition all hi-fi is overrated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **No, it is not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are many examples of nonsensically over-rated products
>>>>>>> available
>>>>>>> in the hi fi biz. The LS3/5A is one of them. We all need
>>>>>>> loudspeakers to
>>>>>>> listen to audio (unless you happen to use headphones, of course).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've listened to the LS3/5A many times (different manufacturers).
>>>>>>> I hear
>>>>>>> the same problems with all of them. They are, quite simply, highly
>>>>>>> inaccurate speakers. IE: They are not high fidelity speakers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you say where they are inaccurate bearing in mind their design
>>>>>> limitations and the purpose for which they were designed?..
>>>>>
>>>>> **Yes, I can.
>>>>
>>>> Well go on then!..
>>>
>>> **I believe that I answered your question, precisely, succinctly and
>>> economically.
>>
>> Yes, very economic precisely not answered!
>>
>> Perhaps their not "tuneful" enough for you;?..
>
> **Nope. Just horribly inaccurate. They sound OK, for a cheap speaker.
> Unfortunately, they're not cheap.
>
>>
>>
>>> The LS3/5A is being sold to people for domestic purposes. In that
>>> situation, they sound like crap. Expensive crap.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> If you say so, who would argue with such logic;!
>
> **No need to argue. Just listen to them. Compare them with a known,
> accurate speaker. The problems are instantly audible.
>
That reminds me of when I was developing am audio amplifier for a German
loudspeaker company, They sent their golden eared boy over to blind test
two possibles. He unerringly picked the one with more crossover
distortion 'because it sounded like his Revox'. I tested that as well.
That too had high levels of low volume crossover distortion.

Just like the Quad 303.

People get used to a certain sound and think because they paid for it,
and its heavily advertised, it must be better.

KEF units to me are very neutral. I like that. I don't get tired of them.
Mine cost me less that £100 when I bought the units and fitted them to
chip cabinets.

>>
>> Can't say I know of anyone selling them in the UK apart from Stirling
>> broadcast?..
>
> **OK.
>
>

--
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

Frédéric Bastiat

On 01/06/2023 06:44, RJH wrote:
> On 31 May 2023 at 23:23:51 BST, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
>>> Perhaps their not "tuneful" enough for you;?..
>>
>> **Nope. Just horribly inaccurate. They sound OK, for a cheap speaker.
>> Unfortunately, they're not cheap.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> The LS3/5A is being sold to people for domestic purposes. In that
>>>> situation, they sound like crap. Expensive crap.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> If you say so, who would argue with such logic;!
>>
>> **No need to argue. Just listen to them. Compare them with a known,
>> accurate speaker. The problems are instantly audible.
>
> 'Accuracy' isn't necessarily a problem, and trying to achieve it - at least in
> most domestic settings - is a fool's errand.
>
There is frequency response, including resonance, and there is
distortion, which 'muddies' things up and makes instruments hard to pick
out in say an orchestra.

Frequency response is there at all sound levels but distorion tends to
be less at low volumes.
The lowest distortion I ever heard at decent power was from profession
horn drivers. one foot long aluminium cast mid range horn, JBL bullet
style tweeter.
Twin 15" bass units and IIRC a pair of 8" lower mid range units.
Ultimate disco speakers.

But you can get very good results out of a 3 ways system with a dome mid
range and tweeter. Distortion comes when you are pushing your small
upper frequency units too hard, because the are are only two units and
the crossover frequency is a compromise

Colouration is simply a fact of life, and in the end people just tune
most it out in a given environment. Unless there are very peaky
resonances like what you get with cardboard cones, or an undamped metal
dome etc.

> I'd suggest the main issue is how good they sound to you, in your listening
> environment.
>
> Of course such a measure can easily become coloured by perception, marketing,
> reviews etc. But hey, if you enjoy the sound . . .
>

In the end that is in fact it. People are massively influenced by
marketing. They don't want to admit they paid £4000 for two pieces of
shit or that a home built pair at £150 is in fact 'better'. I spent
years designing and testing and listening to audio kit, and learnt how
to relate what the test equipment said to what I was hearing.

And I have related my conclusions., Today all amps sound alike, and are
essentially so near perfect as makes no difference. and a good CD beats
vinyl hands down, and is pretty much perfect also. Bad stuff happens in
the recording studio and in the loudspeakers, but recording studios that
are now 100% digital are pretty much free of the dreadful recording
quality that recording engineers with no technical background used to make.

So the weakest link in the chain is the loudspeakers. You simply pick
which flaw bothers you least and run with that.

--
No Apple devices were knowingly used in the preparation of this post.

On 1/06/2023 3:44 pm, RJH wrote:
> On 31 May 2023 at 23:23:51 BST, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
>>> Perhaps their not "tuneful" enough for you;?..
>>
>> **Nope. Just horribly inaccurate. They sound OK, for a cheap speaker.
>> Unfortunately, they're not cheap.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> The LS3/5A is being sold to people for domestic purposes. In that
>>>> situation, they sound like crap. Expensive crap.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> If you say so, who would argue with such logic;!
>>
>> **No need to argue. Just listen to them. Compare them with a known,
>> accurate speaker. The problems are instantly audible.
>
> 'Accuracy' isn't necessarily a problem, and trying to achieve it - at least in
> most domestic settings - is a fool's errand.

**Absolute and complete nonsense. Insanity, in fact.

>
> I'd suggest the main issue is how good they sound to you, in your listening
> environment.

**Then that is not necessarily high fidelity. It is something else
entirely. Accuracy is vital if a claim is made for a product to be high
fidelity.

>
> Of course such a measure can easily become coloured by perception, marketing,
> reviews etc. But hey, if you enjoy the sound . . .

**Again: Not necessarily high fidelity. Something like a Quad ESL63,
suitably arranged in a room, IS capable of high fidelity reproduction.
The LS3/5A cannot achieve such a thing. Ever.

The LS3/5A may sound pleasant to an uneducated listener, but it is not
an accurate loudspeaker.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

On 1/06/2023 4:34 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 31/05/2023 23:23, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 31/05/2023 10:28 pm, tony sayer wrote:
>>> In article <kda9gmFev7lU1@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>>>> On 26/05/2023 6:03 am, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>> In article <kd790fFoooU1@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
>>>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>>>>>> On 25/05/2023 4:53 am, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <kcl208F484nU2@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
>>>>>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>>>>>>>> On 17/05/2023 10:01 pm, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 16/05/2023 23:39, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> **It has to be said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The LS3/5A is the most over-rated speaker system ever
>>>>>>>>>> released. They
>>>>>>>>>> are just an average performer.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To be fair, by definition all hi-fi is overrated.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **No, it is not.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are many examples of nonsensically over-rated products
>>>>>>>> available
>>>>>>>> in the hi fi biz. The LS3/5A is one of them. We all need
>>>>>>>> loudspeakers to
>>>>>>>> listen to audio (unless you happen to use headphones, of course).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've listened to the LS3/5A many times (different
>>>>>>>> manufacturers). I hear
>>>>>>>> the same problems with all of them. They are, quite simply, highly
>>>>>>>> inaccurate speakers. IE: They are not high fidelity speakers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can you say where they are inaccurate bearing in mind their design
>>>>>>> limitations and the purpose for which they were designed?..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **Yes, I can.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well go on then!..
>>>>
>>>> **I believe that I answered your question, precisely, succinctly and
>>>> economically.
>>>
>>> Yes, very economic precisely not answered!
>>>
>>> Perhaps their not "tuneful" enough for you;?..
>>
>> **Nope. Just horribly inaccurate. They sound OK, for a cheap speaker.
>> Unfortunately, they're not cheap.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> The LS3/5A is being sold to people for domestic purposes. In that
>>>> situation, they sound like crap. Expensive crap.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> If you say so, who would argue with such logic;!
>>
>> **No need to argue. Just listen to them. Compare them with a known,
>> accurate speaker. The problems are instantly audible.
>>
> That reminds me of when I was developing am audio amplifier for a German
> loudspeaker company, They sent their golden eared boy over to blind test
> two possibles.  He unerringly picked the one with more crossover
> distortion 'because it sounded like his Revox'. I tested that as well.
> That too had high levels of low volume crossover distortion.
>
> Just like the Quad 303.

**I have a couple of Quad 303 amps here. I also possess some SOTA test
equipment. I will check on your claims about the Quad 303. Please advise
of the levels and frequencies you tested the Quad 303 at to arrive at
the claims of crossover distortion. I assume it was in the region of
20mW and 20kHz or so. That has been my standard of uncovering crossover
distortion.

>
> People get used to a certain sound and think because they paid for it,
> and its heavily advertised, it must be better.
>
>  KEF units to me are very neutral.  I like that. I don't get tired of
> them.
> Mine cost me less that £100 when I bought the units and fitted them to
> chip cabinets.

**As were mine. My Bailey T-lines (fitted with Radford crossovers) were
fabulous speakers back in the day. Very accurate, as measured with some
primitive test equipment.

>
>
>
>>>
>>> Can't say I know of anyone selling them in the UK apart from Stirling
>>> broadcast?..
>>
>> **OK.
>>
>>
>

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

On Thu 01/06/2023 21:13, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 1/06/2023 4:34 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 31/05/2023 23:23, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 31/05/2023 10:28 pm, tony sayer wrote:
>>>> In article <kda9gmFev7lU1@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
>>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>>>>> On 26/05/2023 6:03 am, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>>> In article <kd790fFoooU1@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
>>>>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>>>>>>> On 25/05/2023 4:53 am, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article <kcl208F484nU2@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
>>>>>>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>>>>>>>>> On 17/05/2023 10:01 pm, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 16/05/2023 23:39, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> **It has to be said:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The LS3/5A is the most over-rated speaker system ever
>>>>>>>>>>> released. They
>>>>>>>>>>> are just an average performer.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To be fair, by definition all hi-fi is overrated.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> **No, it is not.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are many examples of nonsensically over-rated products
>>>>>>>>> available
>>>>>>>>> in the hi fi biz. The LS3/5A is one of them. We all need
>>>>>>>>> loudspeakers to
>>>>>>>>> listen to audio (unless you happen to use headphones, of course).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've listened to the LS3/5A many times (different
>>>>>>>>> manufacturers). I hear
>>>>>>>>> the same problems with all of them. They are, quite simply, highly
>>>>>>>>> inaccurate speakers. IE: They are not high fidelity speakers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can you say where they are inaccurate bearing in mind their design
>>>>>>>> limitations and the purpose for which they were designed?..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **Yes, I can.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well go on then!..
>>>>>
>>>>> **I believe that I answered your question, precisely, succinctly and
>>>>> economically.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, very economic precisely not answered!
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps their not "tuneful" enough for you;?..
>>>
>>> **Nope. Just horribly inaccurate. They sound OK, for a cheap speaker.
>>> Unfortunately, they're not cheap.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The LS3/5A is being sold to people for domestic purposes. In that
>>>>> situation, they sound like crap. Expensive crap.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you say so, who would argue with such logic;!
>>>
>>> **No need to argue. Just listen to them. Compare them with a known,
>>> accurate speaker. The problems are instantly audible.
>>>
>> That reminds me of when I was developing am audio amplifier for a
>> German loudspeaker company, They sent their golden eared boy over to
>> blind test two possibles.  He unerringly picked the one with more
>> crossover distortion 'because it sounded like his Revox'. I tested
>> that as well. That too had high levels of low volume crossover
>> distortion.
>>
>> Just like the Quad 303.
>
> **I have a couple of Quad 303 amps here. I also possess some SOTA test
> equipment. I will check on your claims about the Quad 303. Please advise
> of the levels and frequencies you tested the Quad 303 at to arrive at
> the claims of crossover distortion. I assume it was in the region of
> 20mW and 20kHz or so. That has been my standard of uncovering crossover
> distortion.
>
>>
>> People get used to a certain sound and think because they paid for it,
>> and its heavily advertised, it must be better.
>>
>>   KEF units to me are very neutral.  I like that. I don't get tired of
>> them.
>> Mine cost me less that £100 when I bought the units and fitted them to
>> chip cabinets.
>
> **As were mine. My Bailey T-lines (fitted with Radford crossovers) were
> fabulous speakers back in the day. Very accurate, as measured with some
> primitive test equipment.
>
>>
>>
>>

Good heavens, someone else with a pair of Bailey transmission lines! The
only thing I did to mine was to add a pair of Coles ST4001 super
tweeters. They were built by a colleague who got married and moved into
a terraced house in a village outside Cambridge where he couldn't
accommodate their size. He sold them to me for £50 This would be late
70's) and bought himself a pair of Ram units about the same size as the
BC1's. The only issue with the TLs was their inability to produce as
good a sound stage as a two driver speaker. In that respect a pair of
Denton IIs were much better.
I built a MOSFET power amp using Ambit (remember them?) modules with
Hitachi power devices and effectively dual mono. Same mains transformer
but separate JLH designed regulated supplies feeding the amps. I still
have it but had to call a halt when it developed a bias fault. The best
thing was it did 110W into 8R and 220W into 4R both channels driven. The
response was within about 0.3dB from <10Hz to 240KHz, the worst phase
error was about 4deg at 8Hz (yes I had access to some pretty good test
gear!) I fitted some filters to make it more realistic but it could
still shake windows at 20ft and only a couple of watts drive. Classical
organ music was unbelievably real!

On 2/06/2023 6:41 am, Woody wrote:
> On Thu 01/06/2023 21:13, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 1/06/2023 4:34 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 31/05/2023 23:23, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 31/05/2023 10:28 pm, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>> In article <kda9gmFev7lU1@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
>>>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>>>>>> On 26/05/2023 6:03 am, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <kd790fFoooU1@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
>>>>>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>>>>>>>> On 25/05/2023 4:53 am, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In article <kcl208F484nU2@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
>>>>>>>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>>>>>>>>>> On 17/05/2023 10:01 pm, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 16/05/2023 23:39, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> **It has to be said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The LS3/5A is the most over-rated speaker system ever
>>>>>>>>>>>> released. They
>>>>>>>>>>>> are just an average performer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> To be fair, by definition all hi-fi is overrated.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> **No, it is not.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There are many examples of nonsensically over-rated products
>>>>>>>>>> available
>>>>>>>>>> in the hi fi biz. The LS3/5A is one of them. We all need
>>>>>>>>>> loudspeakers to
>>>>>>>>>> listen to audio (unless you happen to use headphones, of course).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've listened to the LS3/5A many times (different
>>>>>>>>>> manufacturers). I hear
>>>>>>>>>> the same problems with all of them. They are, quite simply,
>>>>>>>>>> highly
>>>>>>>>>> inaccurate speakers. IE: They are not high fidelity speakers.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Can you say where they are inaccurate bearing in mind their design
>>>>>>>>> limitations and the purpose for which they were designed?..
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **Yes, I can.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well go on then!..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **I believe that I answered your question, precisely, succinctly and
>>>>>> economically.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, very economic precisely not answered!
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps their not "tuneful" enough for you;?..
>>>>
>>>> **Nope. Just horribly inaccurate. They sound OK, for a cheap
>>>> speaker. Unfortunately, they're not cheap.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> The LS3/5A is being sold to people for domestic purposes. In that
>>>>>> situation, they sound like crap. Expensive crap.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you say so, who would argue with such logic;!
>>>>
>>>> **No need to argue. Just listen to them. Compare them with a known,
>>>> accurate speaker. The problems are instantly audible.
>>>>
>>> That reminds me of when I was developing am audio amplifier for a
>>> German loudspeaker company, They sent their golden eared boy over to
>>> blind test two possibles.  He unerringly picked the one with more
>>> crossover distortion 'because it sounded like his Revox'. I tested
>>> that as well. That too had high levels of low volume crossover
>>> distortion.
>>>
>>> Just like the Quad 303.
>>
>> **I have a couple of Quad 303 amps here. I also possess some SOTA test
>> equipment. I will check on your claims about the Quad 303. Please
>> advise of the levels and frequencies you tested the Quad 303 at to
>> arrive at the claims of crossover distortion. I assume it was in the
>> region of 20mW and 20kHz or so. That has been my standard of
>> uncovering crossover distortion.
>>
>>>
>>> People get used to a certain sound and think because they paid for
>>> it, and its heavily advertised, it must be better.
>>>
>>>   KEF units to me are very neutral.  I like that. I don't get tired
>>> of them.
>>> Mine cost me less that £100 when I bought the units and fitted them
>>> to chip cabinets.
>>
>> **As were mine. My Bailey T-lines (fitted with Radford crossovers)
>> were fabulous speakers back in the day. Very accurate, as measured
>> with some primitive test equipment.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
> Good heavens, someone else with a pair of Bailey transmission lines!

**With Radford crossovers. The Radford crossovers utterly transform the
KEF T-lines (and Concertos). Inductors are air cored (rather than the
horrible ferrite core types used by KEF) and there is a 24dB/octave
filter on the HF driver, along with a parallel resonant circuit on the
mid, to null out the nasty resonance inherent to all the old B110
drivers (solved by KEF in later production).

Having lived with both crossovers, I can assure you that the difference
is far from subtle. Best of all, after replacing the electros with
higher Voltage types, the speaker could easily deal with my 300+
Watt/channel Marantz Model 500 amplifier, when used at many parties in
my 20s.

The
> only thing I did to mine was to add a pair of Coles ST4001 super
> tweeters. They were built by a colleague who got married and moved into
> a terraced house in a village outside Cambridge where he couldn't
> accommodate their size. He sold them to me for £50 This would be late
> 70's) and bought himself a pair of Ram units about the same size as the
> BC1's. The only issue with the TLs was their inability to produce as
> good a sound stage as a two driver speaker. In that respect a pair of
> Denton IIs  were much better.

**Yes, the wide baffle of the T-lines was a major problem. BTW: You
don't need a 2 way to obtain good imaging. You just need a speaker where
proper attention has been paid to diffraction issues. A pair of old
Duntech Crown Prince speakers will easily demonstrate that.

> I built a MOSFET power amp using Ambit (remember them?) modules with
> Hitachi power devices and effectively dual mono.

**Puke. Reliable, but horrible sounding things. An old Phase Linear 400
or 700 will clobber such an amp.

Same mains transformer
> but separate JLH designed regulated supplies feeding the amps. I still
> have it but had to call a halt when it developed a bias fault. The best
> thing was it did 110W into 8R and 220W into 4R both channels driven. The
> response was within about 0.3dB from <10Hz to 240KHz, the worst phase
> error was about 4deg at 8Hz (yes I had access to some pretty good test
> gear!) I fitted some filters to make it more realistic but it could
> still shake windows at 20ft and only a couple of watts drive. Classical
> organ music was unbelievably real!

**Yeah. A mate brought his analyser down to my place to check my KEF
T-lines out. He was stunned to find that 20Hz was available at only a
few dB down. Best of all, they never sounded bassy. Largely because they
were very clean and very flat.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

On 1 Jun 2023 at 21:08:45 BST, Trevor Wilson wrote:

>> 'Accuracy' isn't necessarily a problem, and trying to achieve it - at least in
>> most domestic settings - is a fool's errand.
>
> **Absolute and complete nonsense. Insanity, in fact.

Not if coming from an informed view. Informed preferably by live performances
and decent hifi systems.

Even if you have no reference, I don't get too upset by people who buy by
label (Bose etc.). It's their money. Internet buying and lack of demonstration
facilities has made making an informed choice more difficult I suppose. Hats
off to Richer Sounds in this regard.

>>
>> I'd suggest the main issue is how good they sound to you, in your listening
>> environment.
>
> **Then that is not necessarily high fidelity. It is something else
> entirely. Accuracy is vital if a claim is made for a product to be high
> fidelity.

Is hifi 'low distortion'? If so, it sounds OK as a start. I've never known
what the term HiFi actually means.

>
>>
>> Of course such a measure can easily become coloured by perception, marketing,
>> reviews etc. But hey, if you enjoy the sound . . .
>
> **Again: Not necessarily high fidelity. Something like a Quad ESL63,
> suitably arranged in a room, IS capable of high fidelity reproduction.
> The LS3/5A cannot achieve such a thing. Ever.
>
> The LS3/5A may sound pleasant to an uneducated listener, but it is not
> an accurate loudspeaker.

Personally, if you've taken the trouble to reach an informed opinion, I don't
care.

--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK

RJH wrote:
-----------------
>
> > **Absolute and complete nonsense. Insanity, in fact.
>
> Not if coming from an informed view. Informed preferably by live performances
> and decent hifi systems.

** Attending live music performances informs you of nothing relevant while "decent hifi systems" are rare unless you own one.

> Even if you have no reference,

** Electrostatic head phones are a good & available reference for how a recording / broadcast sounds.

> Is hifi 'low distortion'? If so, it sounds OK as a start. I've never known
> what the term HiFi actually means.

** Just a term marketers use to distinguish the "cheap and cheerful " from the more pretentious kind of home reproduction systems.

Audiophools take it to mean a never ending search for perfection - as if that is an end in itself.

...... Phil

Woody wrote:
-----------------------
>
> Good heavens, someone else with a pair of Bailey transmission lines! The
> only thing I did to mine was to add a pair of Coles ST4001 super
> tweeters.

** You have reminded me of the ONE time had had any dealings with those beasties.
It was in about 1976, a mate had bought a pair of B&W DM1s in poor condition - the EMI oval woofers had badly frayed cones but the HF1300 and Coles tweeters were fine. He agreed that KEF B200s replace the 10x6 inch EMIs and I do any other work needed.
So I made mounting templates to suit the new 8 inch round woofers, fitted them and did listening comparisons with my restored Quad ESL57s. The HF1300 tweeter was clearly too prominent so I tamed it by about 4dB with a resistive attenuator but left the Coles alone as it played a subtle role anyhow.

The mate was delighted with the result and it seems now that I had created a mini Spendor BC1 in advance !!

....... Phil

On 01/06/2023 21:13, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 1/06/2023 4:34 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 31/05/2023 23:23, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 31/05/2023 10:28 pm, tony sayer wrote:
>>>> In article <kda9gmFev7lU1@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
>>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>>>>> On 26/05/2023 6:03 am, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>>> In article <kd790fFoooU1@mid.individual.net>, Trevor
>>>>>> Wilson <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>>>>>>> On 25/05/2023 4:53 am, tony sayer wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article <kcl208F484nU2@mid.individual.net>, Trevor
>>>>>>>> Wilson <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus
>>>>>>>>> On 17/05/2023 10:01 pm, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 16/05/2023 23:39, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> **It has to be said:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The LS3/5A is the most over-rated speaker system
>>>>>>>>>>> ever released. They are just an average
>>>>>>>>>>> performer.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To be fair, by definition all hi-fi is overrated.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> **No, it is not.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are many examples of nonsensically over-rated
>>>>>>>>> products available in the hi fi biz. The LS3/5A is
>>>>>>>>> one of them. We all need loudspeakers to listen to
>>>>>>>>> audio (unless you happen to use headphones, of
>>>>>>>>> course).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've listened to the LS3/5A many times (different
>>>>>>>>> manufacturers). I hear the same problems with all of
>>>>>>>>> them. They are, quite simply, highly inaccurate
>>>>>>>>> speakers. IE: They are not high fidelity speakers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can you say where they are inaccurate bearing in mind
>>>>>>>> their design limitations and the purpose for which they
>>>>>>>> were designed?..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **Yes, I can.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well go on then!..
>>>>>
>>>>> **I believe that I answered your question, precisely,
>>>>> succinctly and economically.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, very economic precisely not answered!
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps their not "tuneful" enough for you;?..
>>>
>>> **Nope. Just horribly inaccurate. They sound OK, for a cheap
>>> speaker. Unfortunately, they're not cheap.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The LS3/5A is being sold to people for domestic purposes. In
>>>>> that situation, they sound like crap. Expensive crap.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you say so, who would argue with such logic;!
>>>
>>> **No need to argue. Just listen to them. Compare them with a
>>> known, accurate speaker. The problems are instantly audible.
>>>
>> That reminds me of when I was developing am audio amplifier for a
>> German loudspeaker company, They sent their golden eared boy over
>> to blind test two possibles. He unerringly picked the one with
>> more crossover distortion 'because it sounded like his Revox'. I
>> tested that as well. That too had high levels of low volume
>> crossover distortion.
>>
>> Just like the Quad 303.
>
> **I have a couple of Quad 303 amps here. I also possess some SOTA
> test equipment. I will check on your claims about the Quad 303.
> Please advise of the levels and frequencies you tested the Quad 303
> at to arrive at the claims of crossover distortion. I assume it was
> in the region of 20mW and 20kHz or so. That has been my standard of
> uncovering crossover distortion.
>
That is a bit low power wise.
It will still be in class A at that point.

Try 10KHz and do a distortion versus (log) power all the way up.
IIRC it peaks at around 0.5%.
But it was all 50 years ago..

The problem with those amps is simply that the Class B operation
switches off one half of the amp, and it takes a finite time to switch
it back on, due to parasitic capacitance and other delays. Until it does
that the internal gain is pretty low.

Once faster transistors and in particular FETS were in use, that pushed
the distortion into the ultrasonic band, and clever circuit design
(which I used, on one amp, but thermal stability was never reliable)
could keep the 'off' half of the amplifier sufficiently ON to remove the
effect completely .

Of course class 'D' amplifiers which were pie in the sky when I was
designing stuff, don't have any crossover distortion at all. They have
other problems instead!

The Sony amplifier I still have from the 1990s uses that technique, with
massively integrated output chips so the thermal stability is more than
adequate.

As far as I am concerned it is far moire 'perfect' than my speakers, at
a fraction of the price of those speakers.

>>
>> People get used to a certain sound and think because they paid for
>> it, and its heavily advertised, it must be better.
>>
>> KEF units to me are very neutral. I like that. I don't get tired
>> of them. Mine cost me less that £100 when I bought the units and
>> fitted them to chip cabinets.
>
> **As were mine. My Bailey T-lines (fitted with Radford crossovers)
> were fabulous speakers back in the day. Very accurate, as measured
> with some primitive test equipment.
>
It really depends on what music you listen to. Some people like to hear
their guts rumble with organ music. T lines do well on that. Other
people like the thump of the bass guitar and drums. T-lies are 'orrible
for that. You need a massive concrete bass horn or bass reflex to do
justice to that. Then again if you are listening to just a few
instruments, like the average rock or jazz track, intermodulation
distortion wont affect the subjective effect too much, but if its
orchestral music with a choir or full violin section. low
intermodulation distortion will turn it from a 'sound' to 'i can hear
each voice and each violin' sort of clarity. That's where an ESL scores
at low volumes. At high volumes use horns.

Then as far as resonances go, the spoken male voice can sound very
'woody' or 'boxy'. And mid and upper ranges 'cardboardy' if the units
have paper cones and the cabinets are badly damped.

KEF pioneered 'non paper' cones with Bextrene, today you can have
carbon fibre for bass units and titanium for tweeters and even cheap
speakers are really pretty good.

As the other half of my experience was with the exact opposite of hi fi,
i..e. guitar amplifiers and loudspeakers. I learnt by exposure to
gross examples, what highly resonant loudspeakers and cabinets,
especially driven from very high impedances, sounded like, as well as
high levels of particular forms of distortion. And even the differences
between Ceramic, and AlNiCo magnets - and yes there is a difference,
though why that is I haven't worked out.

In an electric guitar the loudspeaker and it's cabinet are analogues of
the soundbox of an acoustic guitar. The last thing you want is to
accurately reproduce the soulless nature of the strings and pickups.
Direct injection into the mixing desk is not the way to go, unless you
can use multiple reverberators to create a synthetic 'sound box' inside
the effects section of your electronics.

One thing that theory taught me, is the relationship between frequency
response and impulse response. Tap a bass unit in a cabinet, and if its
a dull 'thunk' it will be a good unit, if you can hear a cardboardy
sort of 'doink' it will do well for a guitar.

Then try tapping a violin, or an acoustic guitar.

--
“It is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
who pay no price for being wrong.”

Thomas Sowell

On 02/06/2023 07:35, RJH wrote:
> On 1 Jun 2023 at 21:08:45 BST, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
>>> 'Accuracy' isn't necessarily a problem, and trying to achieve it - at least in
>>> most domestic settings - is a fool's errand.
>>
>> **Absolute and complete nonsense. Insanity, in fact.
>
> Not if coming from an informed view. Informed preferably by live performances
> and decent hifi systems.
>
I think the confusion arises of of the words used in an attempt to
describe a subjective experience.

What I understand by 'accuracy' is what is also expressed as 'clarity'
and is typically the ability to separate individual instruments and
voices out of a musical piece.

The best way I can express it is that some loudspeakers turn the 'sound
of an orchestra' into 'the sound of a lot of separate instruments all
playing together'
My theoretical understanding of that is that it almost certainly
reflects low levels of distortion in the loudspeakers, so the cones and
spiders are not reaching the limits of their travel. You wont hear that
level of distortion on a single instrument, but you will subliminally
become aware of it when there are a lot of instruments and the
intermodulation products will produce frequencies that weren't there in
the original recording. It sounds 'muddy'.

At low power the electrostatic speaker is one of the best attempts to
reduce this, but they are fragile and limited. At high power you simply
cannot do better than horns, because those impedance match the
compression drivers to the air, so that very small (and hence more
linear) excursions of the diaphraghms produce much louder sounds. The
problem with horns is controlling the resonances within them. They are
clean, but coloured.

And that brings me to the second part of loudspeaker design. Resonances
or 'colouration'. If you 'like the sound of those speakers' rather than
'like the sound of the orchestra,played through those speakers' you have
colouration. Resonances - narrow peaks and troughs in the frequency
response.

Many people actually like that. They like 'the sound' of their
*speakers*. I personally don't.

But I am prepared to trade a little of it for low distortion.

> Even if you have no reference, I don't get too upset by people who buy by
> label (Bose etc.). It's their money. Internet buying and lack of demonstration
> facilities has made making an informed choice more difficult I suppose. Hats
> off to Richer Sounds in this regard.
>
*shrug*. Ive heard Bose. Its indifferent mid fi crap, but it looks good
in your minimalist Scandinavian room made out of 'Norwegian wood, isn't
it good?'
>>>
>>> I'd suggest the main issue is how good they sound to you, in your listening
>>> environment.
>>
>> **Then that is not necessarily high fidelity. It is something else
>> entirely. Accuracy is vital if a claim is made for a product to be high
>> fidelity.
>
> Is hifi 'low distortion'? If so, it sounds OK as a start. I've never known
> what the term HiFi actually means.

What you are looking for is accurate frequency response and low
distortion. Then you hear the music, not the kit.

Accurate frequency response is hard to achieve in a domestic room,
especially if its 'modern' and has hard walls and no curtains or carpets.

The best you can hope for is that you hear the room's resonances, not
the loudspeaker's.

But low distortion is achievable in a domestic setting. But unless you
understand what it sounds like, you probably wont actually like it. It
doesn't sound expensive. It isn't something you can hear, its something
that you *don't hear*.

>
>>
>>>
>>> Of course such a measure can easily become coloured by perception, marketing,
>>> reviews etc. But hey, if you enjoy the sound . . .
>>
>> **Again: Not necessarily high fidelity. Something like a Quad ESL63,
>> suitably arranged in a room, IS capable of high fidelity reproduction.
>> The LS3/5A cannot achieve such a thing. Ever.
>>
>> The LS3/5A may sound pleasant to an uneducated listener, but it is not
>> an accurate loudspeaker.
>
> Personally, if you've taken the trouble to reach an informed opinion, I don't
> care.
>

Matey is very proud of his electrostatics and very disparaging of his
KEFs. Ive heard both, and sure at low volumes ESLs are great if you
don't mind the absence of bass, but I do. And I like to turn stuff up.
Led Zep are not Led Zep at 60dbA. You cant do that on ESLs., You can get
a bit closer with KEFs. KEFS are low colouration speakers, but not that
great at distortion except at rather low power. Nice easy listening for
classical, but not for a party, playing rock

Mine are worth what I paid for them, A couple of hundred tops. I could
listen to them all day, and did.

Now awaiting putting back in cabinets

But for real gut thumping rock, NOTHING beats upper mid and high
frequency horns and as many big badass bass units as you can screw into
as large a cabinet as possible and probably some kevlar or carbon fibre
lower mid range units as well. Its hard to get a horn to go much below
1.5Khz, and big bass units will crap out at around 500Hz, so there's an
octave missing in the middle unless you go four way.

Use separate amps for each driver and electronic crossovers - far easier
to get 'perfect' crossovers without coils in the way.
And if you think that's sounding like a typical PA rig from a rock
concert, yes it, is, just optimised for studio use rather than stadium,

ESLs are not going to get you 115dB of clean clear disco/rock music on
the dance floor.

--
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".