In celebration of the Kiwi's Test championship select your al;l; time best Kiwi team . Here is mine

Glen Turner
Stewie Dempster
Kane Williamson
Martin Donnelly
Martin Crowe
John Reid RoB/RFM
Brendon McCullum wk
Daniel Vettori SLA
Richard Hadlee RF
Shane Bond RF
Jack Cowie RF

RH

On Thursday, 24 June 2021 at 16:57:44 UTC+1, RH wrote:
> In celebration of the Kiwi's Test championship select your al;l; time best Kiwi team . Here is mine
>
>
> Glen Turner
> Stewie Dempster
> Kane Williamson
> Martin Donnelly
> Martin Crowe
> John Reid RoB/RFM
> Brendon McCullum wk
> Daniel Vettori SLA
> Richard Hadlee RF
> Shane Bond RF
> Jack Cowie RF
>
> RH
No love for Bert Sutcliffe? Not sure who you'd drop for him, mind.

In message <1d7f52ee-e6b6-4bbc-bd8a-5d933794671fn@googlegroups.com>, RH
<anywhere156@gmail.com> writes
>In celebration of the Kiwi's Test championship select your al;l; time
>best Kiwi team . Here is mine
>
>
>Glen Turner
>Stewie Dempster
>Kane Williamson
>Martin Donnelly
>Martin Crowe
>John Reid RoB/RFM
>Brendon McCullum wk
>Daniel Vettori SLA
>Richard Hadlee RF
>Shane Bond RF
>Jack Cowie RF
>
>RH
>

I'd have Southee in preference to Bond. If Jamieson carries on like he's
started, it may not be long before he demands inclusion.
--
John Hall "Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always
pays off now." Anon

On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 18:10:46 +0100, John Hall
<john_nospam@jhall.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <1d7f52ee-e6b6-4bbc-bd8a-5d933794671fn@googlegroups.com>, RH
><anywhere156@gmail.com> writes
>>In celebration of the Kiwi's Test championship select your al;l; time
>>best Kiwi team . Here is mine
>>
>>
>>Glen Turner
>>Stewie Dempster
>>Kane Williamson
>>Martin Donnelly
>>Martin Crowe
>>John Reid RoB/RFM
>>Brendon McCullum wk
>>Daniel Vettori SLA
>>Richard Hadlee RF
>>Shane Bond RF
>>Jack Cowie RF
>>
>>RH
>>
>
>I'd have Southee in preference to Bond. If Jamieson carries on like he's
>started, it may not be long before he demands inclusion.

And I'd have Boult rather than Cowie. His being a left-armer makes him
far more valuable than Cowie in that side.

Cheers,

Mike

On 25/06/2021 18:10, John Hall wrote:
> In message <1d7f52ee-e6b6-4bbc-bd8a-5d933794671fn@googlegroups.com>, RH
> <anywhere156@gmail.com> writes
>> In celebration of the Kiwi's Test championship select your al;l; time
>> best Kiwi team . Here is mine
>>
>>
>> Glen Turner
>> Stewie Dempster
>> Kane Williamson
>> Martin Donnelly
>> Martin Crowe
>> John Reid RoB/RFM
>> Brendon McCullum wk
>> Daniel Vettori  SLA
>> Richard Hadlee RF
>> Shane  Bond  RF
>> Jack Cowie  RF
>>
>> RH
>>
>
> I'd have Southee in preference to Bond. If Jamieson carries on like he's
> started, it may not be long before he demands inclusion.

He already has one more Test wicket than Cowie at an average a third
lower (and can bat significantly better). Cowie did a large proportion
of his bowling to Hutton, Hammond and Compton though.

--
David North

On Thursday, June 24, 2021 at 7:57:44 PM UTC+4, RH wrote:
> In celebration of the Kiwi's Test championship select your al;l; time best Kiwi team . Here is mine
>
> Glen Turner
> Stewie Dempster
> Kane Williamson
> Martin Donnelly
> Martin Crowe
> John Reid RoB/RFM
> Brendon McCullum wk
> Daniel Vettori SLA
> Richard Hadlee RF
> Shane Bond RF
> Jack Cowie RF
>
> RH

Other than Samoan ethnicity, is there a particular reason why a bloke with 7.5k+ runs and a passably decent record in the countries he's played around the world in has been ignored in favour of one who, while clearly very good, only played all his dozen innings in one country?

On Sunday, June 27, 2021 at 11:17:53 AM UTC+10, chandelle wrote:
> Other than Samoan ethnicity, is there a particular reason why a bloke with 7.5k+ runs and a passably decent record in the countries he's played around the world in has been ignored in favour of one who, while clearly very good, only played all his dozen innings in one country?

No.

On Sat, 26 Jun 2021 18:17:51 -0700 (PDT), chandelle <rama@samura.ai>
wrote:

>On Thursday, June 24, 2021 at 7:57:44 PM UTC+4, RH wrote:
>> In celebration of the Kiwi's Test championship select your al;l; time best Kiwi team . Here is mine
>>
>> Glen Turner
>> Stewie Dempster
>> Kane Williamson
>> Martin Donnelly
>> Martin Crowe
>> John Reid RoB/RFM
>> Brendon McCullum wk
>> Daniel Vettori SLA
>> Richard Hadlee RF
>> Shane Bond RF
>> Jack Cowie RF
>>
>> RH
>
>
>Other than Samoan ethnicity, is there a particular reason why a bloke with 7.5k+ runs and a passably decent record in the countries he's played around the world in has been ignored in favour of one who, while clearly very good, only played all his dozen innings in one country?

Because Donnelly is the Great Lost NZ Player.

Ross Taylor has been a very good player, but he's never looked any
better than that.

In his short career, Donnelly displayed talent and style verging on
genius. "Everybody" knows that he would have been an ATG if he'd
carried on playing cricket. People I knew who saw him routinely said
he was one of the best they ever saw from anywhere. Thus he occupies a
fairly legendary status, and it makes people look knowledgeable when
they pick him despite the thin record. Or at least, they think it
does, and that's the main thing, after all.

Because unless you are going to go on statistics alone, any all-time
XI is based on a romantic notion that players of the past were as good
as the players of today, which is complete nonsense and just about
always has been, at least since about 1930 if not earlier. And if
someone wants to entertain the idea that they know exactly how good
players they never saw and have only read about were, then they will
also be happy to select what are effectively imaginary players.

Which is why any pointless all-time England XI or World XI I pick will
contain SF Barnes. And why plenty of people who know a fair amount
about NZ cricket history will always want to pick Martin Donnelly.

Cheers,

Mike

On Friday, June 25, 2021 at 12:52:04 PM UTC+1, Michael Gooding wrote:
> On Thursday, 24 June 2021 at 16:57:44 UTC+1, RH wrote:
> > In celebration of the Kiwi's Test championship select your al;l; time best Kiwi team . Here is mine
> >
> >
> > Glen Turner
> > Stewie Dempster
> > Kane Williamson
> > Martin Donnelly
> > Martin Crowe
> > John Reid RoB/RFM
> > Brendon McCullum wk
> > Daniel Vettori SLA
> > Richard Hadlee RF
> > Shane Bond RF
> > Jack Cowie RF
> >
> > RH
> No love for Bert Sutcliffe? Not sure who you'd drop for him, mind.

He is my first batting reserve .... RH

On Friday, June 25, 2021 at 8:20:20 PM UTC+1, Mike Holmans wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 18:10:46 +0100, John Hall
> <john_...@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >In message <1d7f52ee-e6b6-4bbc...@googlegroups.com>, RH
> ><anywh...@gmail.com> writes
> >>In celebration of the Kiwi's Test championship select your al;l; time
> >>best Kiwi team . Here is mine
> >>
> >>
> >>Glen Turner
> >>Stewie Dempster
> >>Kane Williamson
> >>Martin Donnelly
> >>Martin Crowe
> >>John Reid RoB/RFM
> >>Brendon McCullum wk
> >>Daniel Vettori SLA
> >>Richard Hadlee RF
> >>Shane Bond RF
> >>Jack Cowie RF
> >>
> >>RH
> >>
> >
> >I'd have Southee in preference to Bond. If Jamieson carries on like he's
> >started, it may not be long before he demands inclusion.
> And I'd have Boult rather than Cowie. His being a left-armer makes him
> far more valuable than Cowie in that side.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mike

Cowie had little pace bowling support and he lost six of his best years to WW2. RH

On Thursday, June 24, 2021 at 4:57:44 PM UTC+1, RH wrote:
> In celebration of the Kiwi's Test championship select your al;l; time best Kiwi team . Here is mine
>
>
> Glen Turner
> Stewie Dempster
> Kane Williamson
> Martin Donnelly
> Martin Crowe
> John Reid RoB/RFM
> Brendon McCullum wk
> Daniel Vettori SLA
> Richard Hadlee RF
> Shane Bond RF
> Jack Cowie RF
>
> RH

Who was the best Kiwi never to play a Test? O will start the ball rolling with Tom Pritchard

RH

On 27/06/2021 03:23, Mike Holmans wrote:
> In his short career, Donnelly displayed talent and style verging on
> genius. "Everybody" knows that he would have been an ATG if he'd
> carried on playing cricket. People I knew who saw him routinely said
> he was one of the best they ever saw from anywhere. Thus he occupies a
> fairly legendary status, and it makes people look knowledgeable when
> they pick him despite the thin record. Or at least, they think it
> does, and that's the main thing, after all.

I have a soft spot for Donnelly, as my dad bowled him [for a
duck, and Walter Hadlee]. This was before my time, and as a small boy
I never thought to ask how/when/where it came about and as a grown-up
it was too late, so I have no further information. Dad was a decent-
enough club cricketer of the period and got as far as a trial for
Yorkshire, so it's possible it was some sort of practice match in
1937; but 1949 would also be in the time-frame.

> Because unless you are going to go on statistics alone, any all-time
> XI is based on a romantic notion that players of the past were as good
> as the players of today, which is complete nonsense and just about
> always has been, at least since about 1930 if not earlier. And if
> someone wants to entertain the idea that they know exactly how good
> players they never saw and have only read about were, then they will
> also be happy to select what are effectively imaginary players.

As long-term readers know, I'm not a fan of arbitrary "AT XIs";
the exercise only makes [very limited] sense if you have to struggle to
fill up the XI, not if you have a galaxy of stars most of whom you have
to reject; and you're right about "imaginary players". But I think we
have a little more information than that. It is sufficiently normal
for great players to have careers at the top lasting pretty-much two
decades that we can make reasonable attempts at all-time rankings, with
leading players overlapping enough to "pass the baton".

It's also important not to conflate two different concepts: is
the cricket better/worse today vs are the players better/worse? IOW,
if we are going, in our imagination, to time-travel [eg] Compton from
1948 to 2021, then we need also to upgrade his training and experience
from [eg] 1935-1947 to what he would have had in 2008-2020; and, vv,
if we take Root back to an earlier era, we need to erase his knowledge
of reverse swing and his experience of bowling machines. Otherwise,
we're being unfair on either the players or their opponents. FWIW, my
view is that the greatest players of any era would still be great in
any other era if given the correct time-travel conditions, but that
the standard of top-class cricket has improved enormously over my
lifetime [like virtually every other professional sport].

--
Andy Walker, Nottingham.
Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Fisher

On Sunday, June 27, 2021 at 12:09:10 PM UTC+1, Andy Walker wrote:
> On 27/06/2021 03:23, Mike Holmans wrote:
> > In his short career, Donnelly displayed talent and style verging on
> > genius. "Everybody" knows that he would have been an ATG if he'd
> > carried on playing cricket. People I knew who saw him routinely said
> > he was one of the best they ever saw from anywhere. Thus he occupies a
> > fairly legendary status, and it makes people look knowledgeable when
> > they pick him despite the thin record. Or at least, they think it
> > does, and that's the main thing, after all.
> I have a soft spot for Donnelly, as my dad bowled him [for a
> duck, and Walter Hadlee].

Oh, my aching sides... RH

This was before my time, and as a small boy
> I never thought to ask how/when/where it came about and as a grown-up
> it was too late, so I have no further information. Dad was a decent-
> enough club cricketer of the period and got as far as a trial for
> Yorkshire, so it's possible it was some sort of practice match in
> 1937; but 1949 would also be in the time-frame.

ROTFL! RH
> --
> Andy Walker, Nottingham.
> Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
> Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Fisher

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 12:09:09 +0100, Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk>
wrote:

>
> It's also important not to conflate two different concepts: is
>the cricket better/worse today vs are the players better/worse? IOW,
>if we are going, in our imagination, to time-travel [eg] Compton from
>1948 to 2021, then we need also to upgrade his training and experience
>from [eg] 1935-1947 to what he would have had in 2008-2020; and, vv,
>if we take Root back to an earlier era, we need to erase his knowledge
>of reverse swing and his experience of bowling machines. Otherwise,
>we're being unfair on either the players or their opponents.

We have previously discussed at enormous length how one might go about
constructing a rating system and have at least noted how complicated
it would get, particularly as regards the time-travel problem.

My current view, which I don't intend to debate very much, is that it
involves so much speculative assertion about how to treat the
differences in social and cricketing conditions that the results would
be effectively meaningless.

> FWIW, my
>view is that the greatest players of any era would still be great in
>any other era if given the correct time-travel conditions, but that
>the standard of top-class cricket has improved enormously over my
>lifetime [like virtually every other professional sport].

With the above caveat, I would largely agree. Certainly if the
greatest player in question had few noticeable weaknesses, it seems
quite reasonable.

At the level slightly below the acme, though, I'd say that quite a
number are/were players of their time who would find/would have found
life considerably more challenging in another era.

Modern batsmen who are weak playing spin would almost certainly have
done far worse in previous eras, just as past players who were weak
against pace and/or swing would find today's scene very hard going.
Since playing pace successfully depends on quick reaction and nerve
and playing spin involves being able to correctly judge the flight of
the ball, it seems unlikely to me that different training and practice
is going to radically improve a player at that fundamental level.

I doubt whether the medium-pace bowlers who bowled leg-theory
inswingers to leg traps in the 1950s would enjoy any great success in
today's environment, and I'd need some convincing that quite a number
of modern finger-"spinners" wouldn't have been regularly deposited in
the stands in the 1930s.

Even among the normally-unquestioned greats, there are a few whose
qualities might well not translate successfully. Wally Hammond, for
instance, was a very leg-side player, which causes me to doubt whether
he would make the same kind of impact against today's predominantly
off-side attacks. There are no doubt players of today who would have
found it extremely difficult to adapt to bowling which gave them very
little to work with outside off stump, although I can't think of any
off the top of my head.

I'm regularly astonished these days by the quality and athleticism of
fielding, which is at levels players of the 1990s could only dream
about. I'm also regularly left open-mouthed at the fluency with which
modern batsmen play shots which largely speaking didn't exist 25 years
ago. I don't have the perception, though, to appreciate modern bowling
to the full: I am aware that bowlers vary their speeds and fidddle
around with seam positions a lot more than they used to, but I can't
spot what they're doing in real time. Since batsmen are visibly much
better than they used to be, the fact that scores are comparable to
those of previous eras strongly suggests that bowlers have improved to
match, but that's an inference rather than something I've observed
directly.

Cheers,

Mike

On 27/06/2021 12:09, Andy Walker wrote:

>     I have a soft spot for Donnelly, as my dad bowled him [for a
> duck, and Walter Hadlee].  This was before my time, and as a small boy
> I never thought to ask how/when/where it came about and as a grown-up
> it was too late, so I have no further information.  Dad was a decent-
> enough club cricketer of the period and got as far as a trial for
> Yorkshire, so it's possible it was some sort of practice match in
> 1937;  but 1949 would also be in the time-frame.

Donnelly did play cricket in England from 1945-50 for Dominions XI,
Oxford U & Warwickshire. He also played Rugby for Oxford & England.

I realise Hadlee wasn't in England during that time, except for 1937
& 1949.

On Thursday, June 24, 2021 at 4:57:44 PM UTC+1, RH wrote:
> In celebration of the Kiwi's Test championship select your al;l; time best Kiwi team . Here is mine
>
>
> Glen Turner
> Stewie Dempster
> Kane Williamson
> Martin Donnelly
> Martin Crowe
> John Reid RoB/RFM
> Brendon McCullum wk
> Daniel Vettori SLA
> Richard Hadlee RF
> Shane Bond RF
> Jack Cowie RF
>
> RH

Here is my all time second Kiwi XI

Bert Sutcliffe
Bev Congdon RM
Ross Taylor
Tom Latham
Nathan Astle
Bradl Watling wk
Chris Cairns RFM
John Bracewell ROB
Tony MacGibbon RFM
Tim Southee RFM
Trent Boult LFM

RH

In message <n7ngdghmupem3faiquto7dj09q68iooqhj@4ax.com>, Mike Holmans
<spam@jackalope.uk> writes
<big snip>
>Even among the normally-unquestioned greats, there are a few whose
>qualities might well not translate successfully. Wally Hammond, for
>instance, was a very leg-side player, which causes me to doubt whether
>he would make the same kind of impact against today's predominantly
>off-side attacks.

I thought that I'd read that he was a particularly fine cover-driver. It
also may be that he played in a period when players tended to favour the
off side, so that his ability to score well on the leg side made him
stand out.
--
John Hall "Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always
pays off now." Anon

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 16:46:43 +0100, John Hall
<john_nospam@jhall.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <n7ngdghmupem3faiquto7dj09q68iooqhj@4ax.com>, Mike Holmans
><spam@jackalope.uk> writes
><big snip>
>>Even among the normally-unquestioned greats, there are a few whose
>>qualities might well not translate successfully. Wally Hammond, for
>>instance, was a very leg-side player, which causes me to doubt whether
>>he would make the same kind of impact against today's predominantly
>>off-side attacks.
>
>I thought that I'd read that he was a particularly fine cover-driver. It
>also may be that he played in a period when players tended to favour the
>off side, so that his ability to score well on the leg side made him
>stand out.
I have some recollection of reading that he scored at least 75% of his
runs on the leg side. Of course, I could well have got that wrong, and
that it was someone else of very high reputation who was so heavily
leg-side biased, in which case that would be the guy who I wouldn't
fancy to do anything like as well today.

Cheers,

Mike

On Sunday, June 27, 2021 at 4:47:54 PM UTC+1, John Hall wrote:
> In message <n7ngdghmupem3faiq...@4ax.com>, Mike Holmans
> <sp...@jackalope.uk> writes
> <big snip>
> >Even among the normally-unquestioned greats, there are a few whose
> >qualities might well not translate successfully. Wally Hammond, for
> >instance, was a very leg-side player, which causes me to doubt whether
> >he would make the same kind of impact against today's predominantly
> >off-side attacks.
> I thought that I'd read that he was a particularly fine cover-driver. It
> also may be that he played in a period when players tended to favour the
> off side, so that his ability to score well on the leg side made him
> stand out.
> --
> John Hall "Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always
> pays off now." Anon

Yep. Hammod was considered the greatest offside player by his contemplates, RH

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 03:23:08 +0100, Mike Holmans <spam@jackalope.uk>
wrote:

>On Sat, 26 Jun 2021 18:17:51 -0700 (PDT), chandelle <rama@samura.ai>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thursday, June 24, 2021 at 7:57:44 PM UTC+4, RH wrote:
>>> In celebration of the Kiwi's Test championship select your al;l; time best Kiwi team . Here is mine
>>>
>>> Glen Turner
>>> Stewie Dempster
>>> Kane Williamson
>>> Martin Donnelly
>>> Martin Crowe
>>> John Reid RoB/RFM
>>> Brendon McCullum wk
>>> Daniel Vettori SLA
>>> Richard Hadlee RF
>>> Shane Bond RF
>>> Jack Cowie RF
>>>
>>> RH
>>
>>
>>Other than Samoan ethnicity, is there a particular reason why a bloke with 7.5k+ runs and a passably decent record in the countries he's played around the world in has been ignored in favour of one who, while clearly very good, only played all his dozen innings in one country?
>
>Because Donnelly is the Great Lost NZ Player.
>

The only time I saw Black Sabbath live it was post Ozzie and Ian
Gillen was singing for them. They played smoke on the water.

Was it Gillen who said that Deep Purple was going to make an album so
heavy you won't be able to lift it off of the turntable?
Tony Iommi said 'hold my beer' and Sabbath released Sabbath bloody
sabbath.
Just another one of those genius peoples, that go un noticed, like
cricket players.

max.it

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Sunday, June 27, 2021 at 9:09:10 PM UTC+10, Andy Walker wrote:
> It's also important not to conflate two different concepts: is
> the cricket better/worse today vs are the players better/worse? IOW,
> if we are going, in our imagination, to time-travel [eg] Compton from
> 1948 to 2021, then we need also to upgrade his training and experience
> from [eg] 1935-1947 to what he would have had in 2008-2020; and, vv,
> if we take Root back to an earlier era, we need to erase his knowledge
> of reverse swing and his experience of bowling machines. Otherwise,
> we're being unfair on either the players or their opponents. FWIW, my
> view is that the greatest players of any era would still be great in
> any other era if given the correct time-travel conditions, but that
> the standard of top-class cricket has improved enormously over my
> lifetime [like virtually every other professional sport].

/Agree

I think if you took Bradman at his peak and magically had him play today he'd struggle. He certainly wouldn't reach his previous lofty heights.
However if you took Bradman the boy and trained him up today (and the years it took for him to mature and peak), then he'd again be a majestic statistical outlier.

This why I often hypothesise about who was the most naturally talented batsman.

On 27/06/2021 20:03, max.it wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 03:23:08 +0100, Mike Holmans <spam@jackalope.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 26 Jun 2021 18:17:51 -0700 (PDT), chandelle <rama@samura.ai>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, June 24, 2021 at 7:57:44 PM UTC+4, RH wrote:
>>>> In celebration of the Kiwi's Test championship select your al;l; time best Kiwi team . Here is mine
>>>>
>>>> Glen Turner
>>>> Stewie Dempster
>>>> Kane Williamson
>>>> Martin Donnelly
>>>> Martin Crowe
>>>> John Reid RoB/RFM
>>>> Brendon McCullum wk
>>>> Daniel Vettori SLA
>>>> Richard Hadlee RF
>>>> Shane Bond RF
>>>> Jack Cowie RF
>>>>
>>>> RH
>>>
>>>
>>> Other than Samoan ethnicity, is there a particular reason why a bloke with 7.5k+ runs and a passably decent record in the countries he's played around the world in has been ignored in favour of one who, while clearly very good, only played all his dozen innings in one country?
>>
>> Because Donnelly is the Great Lost NZ Player.
>>
>
> The only time I saw Black Sabbath live it was post Ozzie and Ian
> Gillen was singing for them. They played smoke on the water.
>
> Was it Gillen who said that Deep Purple was going to make an album so
> heavy you won't be able to lift it off of the turntable?
> Tony Iommi said 'hold my beer' and Sabbath released Sabbath bloody
> sabbath.
> Just another one of those genius peoples, that go un noticed, like
> cricket players.
>
> max.it
>
I saw them in 1971. They weren't a patch on Led Zep, who I'd seen a
couple of weeks earlier.
Steve Hague

Oh, and don't forget... everything was better in the 50s;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGPpDXpfX6o

If you want a comparison, I suggest you just google today's secondary school gymnastics.

On Monday, 28 June 2021 at 06:36:48 UTC+1, steve hague wrote:
> On 27/06/2021 20:03, max.it wrote:
> > On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 03:23:08 +0100, Mike Holmans <sp...@jackalope.uk>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 26 Jun 2021 18:17:51 -0700 (PDT), chandelle <ra...@samura.ai>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Thursday, June 24, 2021 at 7:57:44 PM UTC+4, RH wrote:
> >>>> In celebration of the Kiwi's Test championship select your al;l; time best Kiwi team . Here is mine
> >>>>
> >>>> Glen Turner
> >>>> Stewie Dempster
> >>>> Kane Williamson
> >>>> Martin Donnelly
> >>>> Martin Crowe
> >>>> John Reid RoB/RFM
> >>>> Brendon McCullum wk
> >>>> Daniel Vettori SLA
> >>>> Richard Hadlee RF
> >>>> Shane Bond RF
> >>>> Jack Cowie RF
> >>>>
> >>>> RH
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Other than Samoan ethnicity, is there a particular reason why a bloke with 7.5k+ runs and a passably decent record in the countries he's played around the world in has been ignored in favour of one who, while clearly very good, only played all his dozen innings in one country?
> >>
> >> Because Donnelly is the Great Lost NZ Player.
> >>
> >
> > The only time I saw Black Sabbath live it was post Ozzie and Ian
> > Gillen was singing for them. They played smoke on the water.
> >
> > Was it Gillen who said that Deep Purple was going to make an album so
> > heavy you won't be able to lift it off of the turntable?
> > Tony Iommi said 'hold my beer' and Sabbath released Sabbath bloody
> > sabbath.
> > Just another one of those genius peoples, that go un noticed, like
> > cricket players.
> >
> > max.it
> >
> I saw them in 1971. They weren't a patch on Led Zep, who I'd seen a
> couple of weeks earlier.
> Steve Hague

Was that the Wembley arena concert? I was there too. I looked stunning in my dayglo orange loon pants.

Mike Gooding

On Monday, June 28, 2021 at 3:18:24 AM UTC+10, Mike Holmans wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 16:46:43 +0100, John Hall
> <john_...@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >In message <n7ngdghmupem3faiq...@4ax.com>, Mike Holmans
> ><sp...@jackalope.uk> writes
> ><big snip>
> >>Even among the normally-unquestioned greats, there are a few whose
> >>qualities might well not translate successfully. Wally Hammond, for
> >>instance, was a very leg-side player, which causes me to doubt whether
> >>he would make the same kind of impact against today's predominantly
> >>off-side attacks.
> >
> >I thought that I'd read that he was a particularly fine cover-driver. It
> >also may be that he played in a period when players tended to favour the
> >off side, so that his ability to score well on the leg side made him
> >stand out.
> I have some recollection of reading that he scored at least 75% of his
> runs on the leg side. Of course, I could well have got that wrong, and
> that it was someone else of very high reputation who was so heavily
> leg-side biased, in which case that would be the guy who I wouldn't
> fancy to do anything like as well today.
>
Everywhere I've seen him described has him as almost entirely an off-side aggressive player.
Grimmett & O'Reilly used to tie him down with a leg stump line

Bradman was more optimised for onside play but could adjust to the offside, I've read that in his early days Greg Chappell was very on-side dominant (and Bradman advised him on a couple of changes to make), I think it was in an authorised biography I read.