I have all of my 'data' (music, video, pictures, documents, financial records etc.) on an external hard drive. I've also got a couple of external hard drives that I use for backup purposes. Some of the data is also 'in the cloud' but not all of it. (backup is Apple's time machine, cloud is iCloud, but not the photos since there are too many of them/I'm not willing to pay the monthly price).

I also have a third backup hard drive that's 'off site' in case of fire/theft but I don't 'cycle' that often enough.

I don't think the drives get worked hard, there's next to no photo editing, no video work or anything that's going to shift large amounts of data around.

All of the drives (data, backup) are Seagate bog-standard drives.

So provided that I don't have my house broken into I feel (fairly) secure that I shouldn't lose anything important.

However... I had one of the backup hard drives fail last year and on inspection it was 9 years old. I guess I'd had my money's worth.

So, my question is, for moderate home use, should I just wait until drives fail, trusting in the fact that the backup drives are different ages so are unlikely to fail at the same time and if one drive fails then I can restore the data from two or three other sources?

Or, should I change them after, say, five or six years?

Stephen Packer wrote:
> So, my question is, for moderate home use, should I just wait until drives fail, trusting in the fact that the backup drives are different ages so are unlikely to fail at the same time and if one drive fails then I can restore the data from two or three other sources?

That's what 'd do. They're unlikely to fail at the same time, so as long as you're checking them often enough that multiple drives don't fail between checks, you should be able to replace/duplicate recover as necessary. Once every six months should be plenty.

I have seen disks fail simultaneously. Three at once in a single system, all disks from the same batch, installed at the same time, never powered down.. That was fun. But very unusual, and happened in soak testing before going live, so very early in their lives.

Stephen Packer <stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote in
news:e9309068-344b-4efe-a001-02abc649c58cn@googlegroups.com:

> Or, should I change them after, say, five or six years?
>

do you need to archive any of it?

who will look at this stuff in the future?

I have been having a clear out and found a load of actual printed photos
taken in the 90s, mostly of my son on holidays. I have asked if he has any
interest and the answer is, "no." I have culled them and just have a few
dozen that are of interest to me, which I might scan eventually.

Stephen Packer wrote:

<SNIP>

>
> So, my question is, for moderate home use, should I just wait until
> drives fail, trusting in the fact that the backup drives are
> different ages so are unlikely to fail at the same time and if one
> drive fails then I can restore the data from two or three other
> sources?
>
> Or, should I change them after, say, five or six years?

Wait until they fail, get your moneys worth. As long as they are backed
up in two other places. I heard the single most important factor for
longevity is keeping them cool. I think a well cooled drive could last
a lot longer than 5 or 6 years, if they get through the first year or
so ime.

--

Geoff
NTV650

On Friday, 24 February 2023 at 12:36:35 UTC, wessie wrote:
> Stephen Packer <stephen...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:e9309068-344b-4efe...@googlegroups.com:
> > Or, should I change them after, say, five or six years?
> >
> do you need to archive any of it?
>
> who will look at this stuff in the future?

Yes, and Me, mostly although I think as my children get older (now in their
30s...) they may have some interest in a 'copy of the family archive' (of
videos and photos)
> I have been having a clear out and found a load of actual printed photos
> taken in the 90s, mostly of my son on holidays. I have asked if he has any
> interest and the answer is, "no." I have culled them and just have a few
> dozen that are of interest to me, which I might scan eventually.

I recently scanned boxes full of photos. Probably won't ever look at them a lot
but at least, if I want to, I can... in principal anyway. A bit like the things I keep
'just in case' and when I need them can't find them.

Stephen Packer <stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote in
news:d29a9f6f-b7ff-456c-994f-de236aa61300n@googlegroups.com:

> A bit like the things I keep 'just in case' and when I need them can't
> find them.
>

I have been getting rid of a lot of that sort of stuff. Found a suitcase
full of liners from motorcycling jackets & trousers. Some over 30 years
old. Also my original waterproof, padded overtrousers. Belstaff Probika,
bought from Claremont M/c on London Road c1992. Binned the lot.

Not used a jacket liner for years. Prefer a regular fleece as you can wear
it separately if on a trip away or at lunch if commuting.

On 24/02/2023 13:18, Stephen Packer wrote:
> On Friday, 24 February 2023 at 12:36:35 UTC, wessie wrote:
>> Stephen Packer <stephen...@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:e9309068-344b-4efe...@googlegroups.com:
>>> Or, should I change them after, say, five or six years?
>>>
>> do you need to archive any of it?
>>
>> who will look at this stuff in the future?
>
> Yes, and Me, mostly although I think as my children get older (now in their
> 30s...) they may have some interest in a 'copy of the family archive' (of
> videos and photos)
>
>> I have been having a clear out and found a load of actual printed photos
>> taken in the 90s, mostly of my son on holidays. I have asked if he has any
>> interest and the answer is, "no." I have culled them and just have a few
>> dozen that are of interest to me, which I might scan eventually.

I recently digitised some old Super8 videos. Just short clips of
'significant' periods. Also transcribed some Sony digital8 on to hard
desk and then backed up in to 'the cloud'. The lad was intrigued by some
from the years before he has memories. His new SO enjoyed them at Xmas
too - with his permission to show them.

>
> I recently scanned boxes full of photos. Probably won't ever look at them a lot
> but at least, if I want to, I can... in principal anyway. A bit like the things I keep
> 'just in case' and when I need them can't find them.

Welcome to my world.

Though for the very best 'only very occasional use' tool porn I can
usually find them (like my crow's foot spanner for the MX5 alternator
bottom bolt). Spare bike parts, on the other hand, are sometimes more
elusive. Now I have a decent shed I really must do some further
rationalisation and categorisation.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

On 24/02/2023 13:52, wessie wrote:
> Stephen Packer <stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:d29a9f6f-b7ff-456c-994f-de236aa61300n@googlegroups.com:
>
>
>> A bit like the things I keep 'just in case' and when I need them can't
>> find them.
>>
>
> I have been getting rid of a lot of that sort of stuff. Found a suitcase
> full of liners from motorcycling jackets & trousers. Some over 30 years
> old. Also my original waterproof, padded overtrousers. Belstaff Probika,
> bought from Claremont M/c on London Road c1992. Binned the lot.
>
> Not used a jacket liner for years. Prefer a regular fleece as you can wear
> it separately if on a trip away or at lunch if commuting.

I really ought to get a new jacket to the same standard as my Richa
Gortex trews.

Lots of such kit thrown out before the move, but the just recently
enhanced insulation and high standard flooring loft is going to be a
strong impetus towards the 'stuff expands' trap. SWMBO is the main
offender in that department though. Who needs four different rucksacks,
five varieties of walking/climbing boot and two sets of crampons?

--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

On 24/02/2023 14:56, Pete Fisher wrote:
>
> I really ought to get a new jacket to the same standard as my Richa
> Gortex trews.
>
> Lots of such kit thrown out before the move, but the just recently
> enhanced insulation and high standard flooring loft is going to be a
> strong impetus towards the 'stuff expands' trap. SWMBO is the main
> offender in that department though. Who needs four different rucksacks,
> five varieties of walking/climbing boot and two sets of crampons?

For heaven's sake, man, the next thing you'll be saying is "who needs
more than one bike, or more than one guitar?". Where will the madness end?

On 24/02/2023 15:52, Mike Fleming wrote:
> On 24/02/2023 14:56, Pete Fisher wrote:
>>
>> I really ought to get a new jacket to the same standard as my Richa
>> Gortex trews.
>>
>> Lots of such kit thrown out before the move, but the just recently
>> enhanced insulation and high standard flooring loft is going to be a
>> strong impetus towards the 'stuff expands' trap. SWMBO is the main
>> offender in that department though. Who needs four different
>> rucksacks, five varieties of walking/climbing boot and two sets of
>> crampons?
>
> For heaven's sake, man, the next thing you'll be saying is "who needs
> more than one bike, or more than one guitar?". Where will the madness end?

GPWM.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

On 24/02/2023 12:06, Stephen Packer wrote:
> I have all of my 'data' (music, video, pictures, documents, financial records etc.) on an external hard drive. I've also got a couple of external hard drives that I use for backup purposes. Some of the data is also 'in the cloud' but not all of it. (backup is Apple's time machine, cloud is iCloud, but not the photos since there are too many of them/I'm not willing to pay the monthly price).
>
> I also have a third backup hard drive that's 'off site' in case of fire/theft but I don't 'cycle' that often enough.

When this subject raised it's head a couple of years I ago, I reailsed
that all my kids are on VM broadband.

So, using some RaspPIs I setup a VPN between us and now send the pics
etc weekly (well just updates) and let them backup to me as well.

So, with ZFS checking the mirrored drives monthly, the daily/weekly
backup and the weekly offiste update I feel fairly covered.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

Pete Fisher <peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote in
news:k5s5g2F577rU3@mid.individual.net:

> On 24/02/2023 15:52, Mike Fleming wrote:
>> On 24/02/2023 14:56, Pete Fisher wrote:
>>>
>>> I really ought to get a new jacket to the same standard as my Richa
>>> Gortex trews.
>>>
>>> Lots of such kit thrown out before the move, but the just recently
>>> enhanced insulation and high standard flooring loft is going to be a
>>> strong impetus towards the 'stuff expands' trap. SWMBO is the main
>>> offender in that department though. Who needs four different
>>> rucksacks, five varieties of walking/climbing boot and two sets of
>>> crampons?
>>
>> For heaven's sake, man, the next thing you'll be saying is "who needs
>> more than one bike, or more than one guitar?". Where will the madness
>> end?
>
> GPWM.
>
>

I seem to collect gloves. I found my first ever pair from 1992, Rhino[0]
branded leather with Thinsulate lining.

The leather is somewhat cracked. Binned with the Alpinestars fabric ones[1]
that have worn through on an index finger.

[0] what happened to Rhino? Did it become RST?
[1] best waterproof glove I have ever owned, bought in 1999 from the dealer
I bought my CBR600FX from. No longer made.

On 24/02/2023 12:06, Stephen Packer wrote:
> I have all of my 'data' (music, video, pictures, documents, financial records etc.) on an external hard drive. I've also got a couple of external hard drives that I use for backup purposes. Some of the data is also 'in the cloud' but not all of it. (backup is Apple's time machine, cloud is iCloud, but not the photos since there are too many of them/I'm not willing to pay the monthly price).
>
> I also have a third backup hard drive that's 'off site' in case of fire/theft but I don't 'cycle' that often enough.
>
> I don't think the drives get worked hard, there's next to no photo editing, no video work or anything that's going to shift large amounts of data around.
>
> All of the drives (data, backup) are Seagate bog-standard drives.
>
> So provided that I don't have my house broken into I feel (fairly) secure that I shouldn't lose anything important.
>
> However... I had one of the backup hard drives fail last year and on inspection it was 9 years old. I guess I'd had my money's worth.
>
> So, my question is, for moderate home use, should I just wait until drives fail, trusting in the fact that the backup drives are different ages so are unlikely to fail at the same time and if one drive fails then I can restore the data from two or three other sources?
>
> Or, should I change them after, say, five or six years?

Drives are usually pretty reliable right up until they start showing
SMART status errors and then they can fail quite quickly - within a week
or two.

The catch is that USB drives don't provide the SMART status. :-(

So replacing every 5 years seems reasonable. I wouldn't wait until one
fails as sods law says it will just be at a time when you can't get a
replacement immediately.

--
Bruce Horrocks
FJR1300AS

Bruce Horrocks wrote:
> replacing every 5 years seems reasonable. I wouldn't wait until one
> fails as sods law says it will just be at a time when you can't get a
> replacement immediately.

If it's one of multiple copies (primary, local backup and offsite backup) then "immediately" shouldn't be an issue.

On 24/02/2023 18:48, Bruce Horrocks wrote:

>
> Drives are usually pretty reliable right up until they start showing
> SMART status errors and then they can fail quite quickly - within a week
> or two.
>

I've got a drive in a NAS that's had a SMART error for a while. It's
only complaining about a slow spin up speed.

--
/Simon

On 24/02/2023 18:57, ogden wrote:
> Bruce Horrocks wrote:
>> replacing every 5 years seems reasonable. I wouldn't wait until one
>> fails as sods law says it will just be at a time when you can't get a
>> replacement immediately.
>
> If it's one of multiple copies (primary, local backup and offsite backup) then "immediately" shouldn't be an issue.

It's always the one with the latest stuff on though :(

--
/Simon

On 24/02/2023 20:06 Stephen Packer penned these words:
> for moderate home use, should I just wait until drives fail, trusting in the fact that the backup drives are different ages so are unlikely to fail at the same time and if one drive fails then I can restore the data from two or three other sources?
>
> Or, should I change them after, say, five or six years?

We, well L lost some stuff when both her back up USB drive which was not more
than a couple of years old and the drive in her PC both failed simultaneously.
*Most* was also in dropbox so not a total disaster, my current strategy is to
automatically back up to a NAS, this has N+1 redundancy running Synology SHR
albeit with equal size disks this is effectively RAID#5[1]. The NAS then backs
up to various OneDrive courtesy of my 365 subscription.

On an adhoc basis I copy data between her PC and mine so important stuff is on
both and also to a local USB drive. Stuff I really really would hate to lose
video of the kids/family photos the kids also have copies of as did/does the ex.

[1] As I recall 2 drives are <12 months old, 1 is ~3 years and 1 ~6 years old.

--
Ian

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of
the last priest"

wessie wrote:

> who will look at this stuff in the future?

I have inherited the family collection of photos, largely dead people
that I never knew, which includes several copies of a B&W photo of me
wrapped in some sort of shawl ... I'm sure my parents must have been proud.

On 2/24/2023 8:33 AM, wessie wrote:
> Pete Fisher <peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote in
> news:k5s5g2F577rU3@mid.individual.net:
>
>> On 24/02/2023 15:52, Mike Fleming wrote:
>>> On 24/02/2023 14:56, Pete Fisher wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Who needs four different
>>>> rucksacks, five varieties of walking/climbing boot and two sets of
>>>> crampons?
>>>
>>> For heaven's sake, man, the next thing you'll be saying is "who needs
>>> more than one bike, or more than one guitar?". Where will the madness
>>> end?
>>
>> GPWM.
>
> I seem to collect gloves.

Everybody has collections. A sock drawer, kitchen utensils, books...
I have a collection of collections. Over 100, at last count. Maps (100s
of them,) beer deckels, sea shells, animal bones, surf gear, etc. My
collection of motorcycle gear is relatively small. Only 5 jackets, all
worn out. A few gloves.

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS & ST1100 (in memoriam)

On 25 Feb 2023 at 07:57:54 GMT, "Boots" <news@millhouse-communications.co.uk>
wrote:

> On 24/02/2023 20:06 Stephen Packer penned these words:
>> for moderate home use, should I just wait until drives fail, trusting in the
>> fact that the backup drives are different ages so are unlikely to fail at the
>> same time and if one drive fails then I can restore the data from two or
>> three other sources?
>>
>> Or, should I change them after, say, five or six years?
>
> We, well L lost some stuff when both her back up USB drive which was not more
> than a couple of years old and the drive in her PC both failed simultaneously.
> *Most* was also in dropbox so not a total disaster, my current strategy is to
> automatically back up to a NAS, this has N+1 redundancy running Synology SHR
> albeit with equal size disks this is effectively RAID#5[1]. The NAS then backs
> up to various OneDrive courtesy of my 365 subscription.
>
> On an adhoc basis I copy data between her PC and mine so important stuff is on
> both and also to a local USB drive. Stuff I really really would hate to lose
> video of the kids/family photos the kids also have copies of as did/does the
> ex.
>
> [1] As I recall 2 drives are <12 months old, 1 is ~3 years and 1 ~6 years
> old.> --
> Ian
>
> "Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of
> the last priest"

I'm currently running a synology DS<something> - it's 9 years old and so the
seagate disks (mirrored) are same age. I use it as a backup device for photos
and family videos. Really important stuff I'd also put in a folder in Onedrive
(like you, part of O365 subscription) - easy to get to.

I also set up an additional backup of the NAS drives to an account on Synology
C2 - it's managed Hyper Backup on the synology.

It's obviously inevitable that one or other drives will fail eventually but
hopefully even if I lose them both the other backups will be adequate.

--
jeremy

On 25 Feb 2023 at 17:52:39 GMT, "Turby" <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:

> A few gloves.

Hopefully an even number.
--
jeremy

On 25/02/2023 18:13, jeremy wrote:
> On 25 Feb 2023 at 17:52:39 GMT, "Turby" <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:
>
>> A few gloves.
>
> Hopefully an even number.

No, any *proper* motorcyclist has a third hand...

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

On 24/02/2023 18:57, ogden wrote:
> Bruce Horrocks wrote:
>> replacing every 5 years seems reasonable. I wouldn't wait until one
>> fails as sods law says it will just be at a time when you can't get a
>> replacement immediately.
>
> If it's one of multiple copies (primary, local backup and offsite backup) then "immediately" shouldn't be an issue.

That doesn't help with the rising sense of paranoia the longer it takes
to get the replacement installed. :-)

--
Bruce Horrocks
FJR1300AS

On 24/02/2023 20:49, siwilson wrote:
> On 24/02/2023 18:48, Bruce Horrocks wrote:
>
>>
>> Drives are usually pretty reliable right up until they start showing
>> SMART status errors and then they can fail quite quickly - within a
>> week or two.
>>
>
> I've got a drive in a NAS that's had a SMART error for a while. It's
> only complaining about a slow spin up speed.
>

Slow spin up could be a sign things are going awry or maybe that the PSU
is struggling when the server starts as everything is drawing more or
less max power.

I would check every few days and its steadily increasing then I would
replace it before it fails to spin up at all.

--
Bruce Horrocks
FJR1300AS

On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 16:33:26 -0000 (UTC), wessie
<willnotwork@tesco.net> wrote:

>Pete Fisher <peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote in
>news:k5s5g2F577rU3@mid.individual.net:
>
>> On 24/02/2023 15:52, Mike Fleming wrote:
>>> On 24/02/2023 14:56, Pete Fisher wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I really ought to get a new jacket to the same standard as my Richa
>>>> Gortex trews.
>>>>
>>>> Lots of such kit thrown out before the move, but the just recently
>>>> enhanced insulation and high standard flooring loft is going to be a
>>>> strong impetus towards the 'stuff expands' trap. SWMBO is the main
>>>> offender in that department though. Who needs four different
>>>> rucksacks, five varieties of walking/climbing boot and two sets of
>>>> crampons?
>>>
>>> For heaven's sake, man, the next thing you'll be saying is "who needs
>>> more than one bike, or more than one guitar?". Where will the madness
>>> end?
>>
>> GPWM.
>>
>>
>
>I seem to collect gloves. I found my first ever pair from 1992, Rhino[0]
>branded leather with Thinsulate lining.

Boots in my case. Two pairs of road/track boots, one pair of MX boots,
one pair of Derri boots, plus non-motorcycle stuff: ski boots,
snowboard boots, walking boots, ex-Army boots, armoured work boots.

--

-Pip