Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ulro6p$3vu55$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:36:25 on Tue, 19 Dec
> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>
>>>> On the open sections where they are permitted to be on board cyclists will
>>>> occupy them ,some will not move for other users the spaces are aimed at.
>>>
>>> Good luck with that. After six months of being "wheelchair hubby", I
>>> take absolutely no prisoners, and refuseniks like that will find their
>>> apparatus unceremoniously ejected.
>>
>> I'd be careful. Some of these guys (and the occasional woman) have a
>> stratospheric level of entitlement and a few also seem to think cyling makes
>> them mike tyson. I've exchanged words with quite a few riding fast on the
>> pavement or through red lights when I was trying to cross. Luckily I'm a
>> fairly big guy so they just resort to the finger or abuse before pedalling
>> off but I reckon a few of them would have started trouble with someone
>> smaller.
>
> They need to be careful, because I've got the local police control room
> on speed-dial on my phone, am on good terms with the staff there, and if
> they lay a finger on me they *will* end up in jail.

A moving train has a local control room?
You are able to influence a court ?
Even if you have such influence and a perpetuator eventually ends up in
Jail that won’t restore missing teeth or a damaged eye or worse if they use
a knife.
OTOH there seems to be something wrong about the style of that post.
Almost as if someone else has posted in Rolands name, but there again
a couple of his posts don’t seem to flow like they did.
Pressure of looking after his wife perhaps or early signs of an age related
condition setting in.

If it is Roland making that statement he needs to remember that his
contacts in the control room
will be ageing at the same pace as himself, that means they will be
changing jobs,moving ,retiring
or getting ill themselves and it isn’t that long before such churn will see
a new team in place to whom
Roland will be an irrelevant old has been who is given attention till the
phone is hung up and they get on with their current tasks with no time for
the distraction of someone attempting to bypass normal channels.

GH

In message <kuh4ciF1i0rU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:24:34 on Wed, 20
Dec 2023, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ulro6p$3vu55$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:36:25 on Tue, 19 Dec
>> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>
>>>>> On the open sections where they are permitted to be on board
>>>>>cyclists will occupy them ,some will not move for other users the
>>>>>spaces are aimed at.
>>>>
>>>> Good luck with that. After six months of being "wheelchair hubby", I
>>>> take absolutely no prisoners, and refuseniks like that will find their
>>>> apparatus unceremoniously ejected.
>>>
>>> I'd be careful. Some of these guys (and the occasional woman) have a
>>> stratospheric level of entitlement and a few also seem to think cyling makes
>>> them mike tyson. I've exchanged words with quite a few riding fast on the
>>> pavement or through red lights when I was trying to cross. Luckily I'm a
>>> fairly big guy so they just resort to the finger or abuse before pedalling
>>> off but I reckon a few of them would have started trouble with someone
>>> smaller.
>>
>> They need to be careful, because I've got the local police control room
>> on speed-dial on my phone, am on good terms with the staff there, and if
>> they lay a finger on me they *will* end up in jail.
>
>A moving train has a local control room?

No, but the control room on land can arrange for the train to be met at
the next convenient station.

>You are able to influence a court ?

It's a more a case of being able to influence the prosecutors to bring
it to court. After that it's an open and shut case.

>Even if you have such influence and a perpetuator eventually ends up in
>Jail that won’t restore missing teeth or a damaged eye or worse if they use
>a knife.

I don't think the lycra louts are likely to be that aggressive.

>OTOH there seems to be something wrong about the style of that post.
>Almost as if someone else has posted in Rolands name, but there again
>a couple of his posts don’t seem to flow like they did.

I'm getting less tolerant, that's for sure.

>Pressure of looking after his wife perhaps or early signs of an age related
>condition setting in.

Oh dear, that started off not too bad, but the only age-related
condition I have is weakening muscles (got a youngster to push the
wheelchair up a ramp last week, and they said "that's much harder
than it looks"). And yes, I'd be more tolerant if travelling alone,
however we are where we are.

>If it is Roland making that statement he needs to remember that his
>contacts in the control room will be ageing at the same pace as
>himself, that means they will be changing jobs,moving ,retiring or
>getting ill themselves and it isn’t that long before such churn will
>see a new team in place to whom Roland will be an irrelevant old has
>been who is given attention till the phone is hung up and they get on
>with their current tasks with no time for the distraction of someone
>attempting to bypass normal channels.

Yes, that particular channel will rot away over time, but you
underestimate the effect that being put on notice in a place like
that has. They really don't want the paperwork involved, when
something they ignore goes bad.
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 20 Dec 2023 20:21:44 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <ulro6p$3vu55$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:36:25 on Tue, 19 Dec
>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>
>>>>On the open sections where they are permitted to be on board cyclists will
>>>>occupy them ,some will not move for other users the spaces are aimed at.
>>>
>>>Good luck with that. After six months of being "wheelchair hubby", I
>>>take absolutely no prisoners, and refuseniks like that will find their
>>>apparatus unceremoniously ejected.
>>
>>I'd be careful. Some of these guys (and the occasional woman) have a
>>stratospheric level of entitlement and a few also seem to think cyling makes
>>them mike tyson. I've exchanged words with quite a few riding fast on the
>>pavement or through red lights when I was trying to cross. Luckily I'm a
>>fairly big guy so they just resort to the finger or abuse before pedalling
>>off but I reckon a few of them would have started trouble with someone
>>smaller.
>
>They need to be careful, because I've got the local police control room
>on speed-dial on my phone, am on good terms with the staff there, and if
>they lay a finger on me they *will* end up in jail.

Thats all well and good, but reactive policing still means that someone has
to get hurt first and that unfortunately might be you. Sometimes its best
just to let it go even if you're in the right.

On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 08:22:15 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <kuh4ciF1i0rU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:24:34 on Wed, 20
>Dec 2023, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>Even if you have such influence and a perpetuator eventually ends up in
>>Jail that won’t restore missing teeth or a damaged eye or worse if they use
>>a knife.
>
>I don't think the lycra louts are likely to be that aggressive.

I wouldn't be too confident about that if I were you. IME some of these twats
can be quite aggressive. Whether it would extend to physical violence who
knows but why take the chance particularly if you're with your wife at the
time.

On 21/12/2023 08:22, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <kuh4ciF1i0rU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:24:34 on Wed, 20
> Dec 2023, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ulro6p$3vu55$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:36:25 on Tue, 19 Dec
>>> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> On the open sections where they are permitted to be on board
>>>>>> cyclists will  occupy them ,some will not move for other users the
>>>>>> spaces are aimed at.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good luck with that. After six months of being "wheelchair hubby", I
>>>>> take absolutely no prisoners, and refuseniks like that will find their
>>>>> apparatus unceremoniously ejected.
>>>>
>>>> I'd be careful. Some of these guys (and the occasional woman) have a
>>>> stratospheric level of entitlement and a few also seem to think
>>>> cyling makes
>>>> them mike tyson. I've exchanged words with quite a few riding fast
>>>> on the
>>>> pavement or through red lights when I was trying to cross. Luckily
>>>> I'm a
>>>> fairly big guy so they just resort to the finger or abuse before
>>>> pedalling
>>>> off but I reckon a few of them would have started trouble with someone
>>>> smaller.
>>>
>>> They need to be careful, because I've got the local police control room
>>> on speed-dial on my phone, am on good terms with the staff there, and if
>>> they lay a finger on me they *will* end up in jail.
>>
>> A moving train has a local control room?
>
> No, but the control room on land can arrange for the train to be met at
> the next convenient station.
>
>> You are able to influence a court ?
>
> It's a more a case of being able to influence the prosecutors to bring
> it to court. After that it's an open and shut case.
>

How so?

TfL conditions of carriage (10.1.3) give wheelchair users priority over
designated spaces on buses but AFAICS have nothing similar for
Underground, DLR, London Overground and Elizabeth line. And nothing in
the byelaws.

Meanwhile tossing a bike looks likely to amount to criminal damage; and
then there's assault if you seek to overcome attempts by people to stop
you. Remember that self-defence extends to defence of property.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <kuh4ciF1i0rU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:24:34 on Wed, 20

>
>> OTOH there seems to be something wrong about the style of that post.
>> Almost as if someone else has posted in Rolands name, but there again
>> a couple of his posts don’t seem to flow like they did.
>
> I'm getting less tolerant, that's for sure.
>
>> Pressure of looking after his wife perhaps or early signs of an age related
>> condition setting in.
>
> Oh dear, that started off not too bad, but the only age-related
> condition I have is weakening muscles (

You hope, intolerance and increased aggressiveness from someone your age is
often the first sign of
of an age related problem . It is frequently stimulated by external
pressures and having to become a carer to someone like a spouse is a good
example.
Dementia denial is also common for understandable reasons such as fear of
the future.
<https://www.dementiauk.org/wp-content/uploads/dementia-uk-understanding-denial-and-lack-of-insight.pdf>

GH

In message <um116a$11845$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:27 on Thu, 21 Dec
2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 08:22:15 +0000
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>In message <kuh4ciF1i0rU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:24:34 on Wed, 20
>>Dec 2023, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>Even if you have such influence and a perpetuator eventually ends up in
>>>Jail that won’t restore missing teeth or a damaged eye or worse if they use
>>>a knife.
>>
>>I don't think the lycra louts are likely to be that aggressive.
>
>I wouldn't be too confident about that if I were you. IME some of these twats
>can be quite aggressive. Whether it would extend to physical violence who
>knows but why take the chance particularly if you're with your wife at the
>time.

Partly because I've been on training courses about handling situations
like that. And even the normally super-reserved British public might
intervene if there's an old man pushing a wheelchair being thumped by a
chav.

<thread convergence> They might even film it on their mobile phone.
--
Roland Perry

In message <kuiivaFb1anU1@mid.individual.net>, at 10:39:39 on Thu, 21
Dec 2023, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <kuh4ciF1i0rU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:24:34 on Wed, 20
>
>>
>>> OTOH there seems to be something wrong about the style of that post.
>>> Almost as if someone else has posted in Rolands name, but there again
>>> a couple of his posts don’t seem to flow like they did.
>>
>> I'm getting less tolerant, that's for sure.
>>
>>> Pressure of looking after his wife perhaps or early signs of an age related
>>> condition setting in.
>>
>> Oh dear, that started off not too bad, but the only age-related
>> condition I have is weakening muscles

>You hope, intolerance and increased aggressiveness from someone your
>age is often the first sign of of an age related problem .

Yes, the muscle weakness.

--
Roland Perry

In message <um111t$117c0$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:38:05 on Thu, 21 Dec
2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Wed, 20 Dec 2023 20:21:44 +0000
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>In message <ulro6p$3vu55$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:36:25 on Tue, 19 Dec
>>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>
>>>>>On the open sections where they are permitted to be on board cyclists will
>>>>>occupy them ,some will not move for other users the spaces are aimed at.
>>>>
>>>>Good luck with that. After six months of being "wheelchair hubby", I
>>>>take absolutely no prisoners, and refuseniks like that will find their
>>>>apparatus unceremoniously ejected.
>>>
>>>I'd be careful. Some of these guys (and the occasional woman) have a
>>>stratospheric level of entitlement and a few also seem to think cyling makes
>>>them mike tyson. I've exchanged words with quite a few riding fast on the
>>>pavement or through red lights when I was trying to cross. Luckily I'm a
>>>fairly big guy so they just resort to the finger or abuse before pedalling
>>>off but I reckon a few of them would have started trouble with someone
>>>smaller.
>>
>>They need to be careful, because I've got the local police control room
>>on speed-dial on my phone, am on good terms with the staff there, and if
>>they lay a finger on me they *will* end up in jail.
>
>Thats all well and good, but reactive policing still means that someone has
>to get hurt first and that unfortunately might be you. Sometimes its best
>just to let it go even if you're in the right.

I'm afraid I've tired of "letting it go" if that means letting people
ignore signage on public transport saying that a particular space is for
priority passengers, and in any case should only otherwise have two
bikes in it not four.
--
Roland Perry

In message <718b87a0-4cbb-4cfb-b5d1-9e70333bde8a@outlook.com>, at
10:04:34 on Thu, 21 Dec 2023, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> remarked:
>On 21/12/2023 08:22, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <kuh4ciF1i0rU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:24:34 on Wed, 20
>>Dec 2023, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ulro6p$3vu55$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:36:25 on Tue, 19 Dec
>>>> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>> On the open sections where they are permitted to be on board
>>>>>>>cyclists will  occupy them ,some will not move for other users
>>>>>>>the spaces are aimed at.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good luck with that. After six months of being "wheelchair hubby", I
>>>>>> take absolutely no prisoners, and refuseniks like that will find their
>>>>>> apparatus unceremoniously ejected.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd be careful. Some of these guys (and the occasional woman) have
>>>>>a stratospheric level of entitlement and a few also seem to think
>>>>>cyling makes them mike tyson. I've exchanged words with quite a
>>>>>few riding fast on the pavement or through red lights when I was
>>>>>trying to cross. Luckily I'm a fairly big guy so they just resort
>>>>>to the finger or abuse before pedalling off but I reckon a few of
>>>>>them would have started trouble with someone smaller.
>>>>
>>>> They need to be careful, because I've got the local police control room
>>>> on speed-dial on my phone, am on good terms with the staff there, and if
>>>> they lay a finger on me they *will* end up in jail.
>>>
>>> A moving train has a local control room?

>> No, but the control room on land can arrange for the train to be met
>>at the next convenient station.
>>
>>> You are able to influence a court ?

>> It's a more a case of being able to influence the prosecutors to
>>bring it to court. After that it's an open and shut case.
>>
>
>How so?
>
>TfL conditions of carriage (10.1.3) give wheelchair users priority over
>designated spaces on buses but AFAICS have nothing similar for
>Underground, DLR, London Overground and Elizabeth line. And nothing in
>the byelaws.

It's not just technology-specific byelaws, but signage on the trains. If
there wasn't a generic thing in the byelaws saying people should obey
signage, I'd be very surprised.

>Meanwhile tossing a bike looks likely to amount to criminal damage;

Nonsense. Moving a bike from where it's not allowed to be would never
fly in court as a cause of action for criminal damage.

>and then there's assault if you seek to overcome attempts by people to
>stop you.

I'm not assaulting their bike, they are assaulting me.

>Remember that self-defence extends to defence of property.

Rubbish. The courts aren't full of cases of people who have been
acquitted of assault because they were violently preventing their
illegally parked car being towed away.

--
Roland Perry

On 21/12/2023 13:05, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <718b87a0-4cbb-4cfb-b5d1-9e70333bde8a@outlook.com>, at
> 10:04:34 on Thu, 21 Dec 2023, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> remarked:
>> On 21/12/2023 08:22, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <kuh4ciF1i0rU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:24:34 on Wed, 20
>>> Dec 2023, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ulro6p$3vu55$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:36:25 on Tue, 19 Dec
>>>>> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On the open sections where they are permitted to be on board
>>>>>>>> cyclists will  occupy them ,some will not move for other users
>>>>>>>> the  spaces are aimed at.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good luck with that. After six months of being "wheelchair hubby", I
>>>>>>> take absolutely no prisoners, and refuseniks like that will find
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> apparatus unceremoniously ejected.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd be careful. Some of these guys (and the occasional woman) have
>>>>>> a  stratospheric level of entitlement and a few also seem to think
>>>>>> cyling makes  them mike tyson. I've exchanged words with quite a
>>>>>> few riding fast  on the  pavement or through red lights when I was
>>>>>> trying to cross. Luckily  I'm a  fairly big guy so they just
>>>>>> resort to the finger or abuse before  pedalling  off but I reckon
>>>>>> a few of them would have started trouble with someone  smaller.
>>>>>
>>>>> They need to be careful, because I've got the local police control
>>>>> room
>>>>> on speed-dial on my phone, am on good terms with the staff there,
>>>>> and if
>>>>> they lay a finger on me they *will* end up in jail.
>>>>
>>>> A moving train has a local control room?
>
>>>  No, but the control room on land can arrange for the train to be met
>>> at  the next convenient station.
>>>
>>>> You are able to influence a court ?
>
>>>  It's a more a case of being able to influence the prosecutors to
>>> bring  it to court. After that it's an open and shut case.
>>>
>>
>> How so?
>>
>> TfL conditions of carriage (10.1.3) give wheelchair users priority
>> over designated spaces on buses but AFAICS have nothing similar for
>> Underground, DLR, London Overground and Elizabeth line.  And nothing
>> in the byelaws.
>
> It's not just technology-specific byelaws, but signage on the trains. If
> there wasn't a generic thing in the byelaws saying people should obey
> signage, I'd be very surprised.

Then please surprise me by citing the byelaw and then the relevant sign.

>> Meanwhile tossing a bike looks likely to amount to criminal damage;
>
> Nonsense. Moving a bike from where it's not allowed to be would never
> fly in court as a cause of action for criminal damage.

Your words were "unceremoniously ejected". If you are now proposing
something more careful please tell us to where you would move the bikes
on a busy train.

>> and then there's assault if you seek to overcome attempts by people to
>> stop you.
>
> I'm not assaulting their bike, they are assaulting me.
>

Not if all they are doing is stopping you from interfering with their
property.

>> Remember that self-defence extends to defence of property.
>
> Rubbish. The courts aren't full of cases of people who have been
> acquitted of assault because they were violently preventing their
> illegally parked car being towed away.
>

You need to establish first that they are doing anything criminal. Bear
in mind the Pauley case[1] where the Supreme Court decided bus drivers
couldn't force buggy users to move them.

You can argue the tube driver should act - e.g. hold the train until
cyclists make space for a wheelchair user. But I don't see how you can
manufacture from that a criminal offence that justifies you donning
mask, cape and exterior pants.

[1] https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2015-0025.html

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <kuiivaFb1anU1@mid.individual.net>, at 10:39:39 on Thu, 21
> Dec 2023, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <kuh4ciF1i0rU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:24:34 on Wed, 20
>>
>>>
>>>> OTOH there seems to be something wrong about the style of that post.
>>>> Almost as if someone else has posted in Rolands name, but there again
>>>> a couple of his posts don’t seem to flow like they did.
>>>
>>> I'm getting less tolerant, that's for sure.
>>>
>>>> Pressure of looking after his wife perhaps or early signs of an age related
>>>> condition setting in.
>>>
>>> Oh dear, that started off not too bad, but the only age-related
>>> condition I have is weakening muscles
>
>> You hope, intolerance and increased aggressiveness from someone your
>> age is often the first sign of of an age related problem .
>
> Yes, the muscle weakness.
>
If that continues you won’t really be able to remove the bike(s) even if
you wish to,
all the keeper of the bike has to do is hold it in place while you huff and
puff.
They won’t need to assault you , what you are going to say in the call to
the control room ?
“. A cyclist won’t let go of a their bike on a train and I want to move
it, please send a Policeman .You know who I am.”

Control operative to another “ we’ve got that old Git Perry on the Phone ,
wants help to move a bike on a train down London way”. Other operative
“Righto , I’ll ask the Met to break off investigating gang crime and
shoplifting right away and send a couple of bobbies along to meet it and
tell the cyclist off for holding on to his own property.

GH

On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 12:25:36 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <um116a$11845$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:27 on Thu, 21 Dec
>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 08:22:15 +0000
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>In message <kuh4ciF1i0rU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:24:34 on Wed, 20
>>>Dec 2023, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>Even if you have such influence and a perpetuator eventually ends up in
>>>>Jail that won’t restore missing teeth or a damaged eye or worse if
>they use
>>>>a knife.
>>>
>>>I don't think the lycra louts are likely to be that aggressive.
>>
>>I wouldn't be too confident about that if I were you. IME some of these twats
>>can be quite aggressive. Whether it would extend to physical violence who
>>knows but why take the chance particularly if you're with your wife at the
>>time.
>
>Partly because I've been on training courses about handling situations
>like that. And even the normally super-reserved British public might
>intervene if there's an old man pushing a wheelchair being thumped by a
>chav.

I wouldn't bet on it. Turning a blind eye seems to be more par for the course
these days.

><thread convergence> They might even film it on their mobile phone.

Instead of helping you.

In message <db152dfc-50c1-43ca-96c3-2d19bba1d671@outlook.com>, at
13:39:54 on Thu, 21 Dec 2023, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> remarked:

>>> TfL conditions of carriage (10.1.3) give wheelchair users priority
>>>over designated spaces on buses but AFAICS have nothing similar for
>>>Underground, DLR, London Overground and Elizabeth line.  And nothing
>>>in the byelaws.

>> It's not just technology-specific byelaws, but signage on the
>>trains. If there wasn't a generic thing in the byelaws saying people
>>should obey signage, I'd be very surprised.
>
>Then please surprise me by citing the byelaw and then the relevant
>sign.

14.2 no person in charge of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other
conveyance shall leave or place it on any part of the railway: in any
manner or place where it may cause an obstruction or hindrance to an
operator or any person using the railway or otherwise than in accordance
with any instructions issued by or on behalf of an operator or an
authorised person

Many (most?) TOCs also have their own local published cycle conditions
of carriage.

Signage in the designated accommodation is commonplace on the trains.

>>> Meanwhile tossing a bike looks likely to amount to criminal damage;

>> Nonsense. Moving a bike from where it's not allowed to be would
>>never fly in court as a cause of action for criminal damage.
>
>Your words were "unceremoniously ejected".

The ceremony in question would called the staff/BTP, rather than acting
oneself.

>If you are now proposing something more careful please tell us to where
>you would move the bikes on a busy train.

It'll depend on the layout of the specific train.

>>> and then there's assault if you seek to overcome attempts by people
>>>to stop you.

There's no assault if they desist from intervening.

>> I'm not assaulting their bike, they are assaulting me.
>
>Not if all they are doing is stopping you from interfering with their
>property.

I disagree.

>>> Remember that self-defence extends to defence of property.

>> Rubbish. The courts aren't full of cases of people who have been
>>acquitted of assault because they were violently preventing their
>>illegally parked car being towed away.
>
>You need to establish first that they are doing anything criminal.

See the byelaws.

> Bear in mind the Pauley case[1] where the Supreme Court decided bus
>drivers couldn't force buggy users to move them.
>
>You can argue the tube driver should act - e.g. hold the train until
>cyclists make space for a wheelchair user. But I don't see how you can
>manufacture from that a criminal offence that justifies you donning
>mask, cape and exterior pants.

Now you are just being silly.

>[1] https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2015-0025.html

"FirstGroup operated a provision criterion or practice (PCP) consisting
of a 'policy of ... ‘first come first served’"

So different to trains. And the case wasn't even about *cycles*,
assault, or interference with property, but DDA. Including the original
deficient policy, but also the reluctance of the driver to take any
action (other than tell the disabled person they were SOL).
--
Roland Perry

In message <kuj200Fe6giU1@mid.individual.net>, at 14:56:01 on Thu, 21
Dec 2023, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <kuiivaFb1anU1@mid.individual.net>, at 10:39:39 on Thu, 21
>> Dec 2023, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <kuh4ciF1i0rU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:24:34 on Wed, 20
>>>
>>>>> OTOH there seems to be something wrong about the style of that post.
>>>>> Almost as if someone else has posted in Rolands name, but there again
>>>>> a couple of his posts don’t seem to flow like they did.
>>>>
>>>> I'm getting less tolerant, that's for sure.
>>>>
>>>>> Pressure of looking after his wife perhaps or early signs of an
>>>>>age related condition setting in.
>>>>
>>>> Oh dear, that started off not too bad, but the only age-related
>>>> condition I have is weakening muscles
>>
>>> You hope, intolerance and increased aggressiveness from someone your
>>> age is often the first sign of of an age related problem .
>>
>> Yes, the muscle weakness.
>>
>If that continues you won’t really be able to remove the bike(s) even
>if you wish to, all the keeper of the bike has to do is hold it in
>place while you huff and puff.

They can do that...

>They won’t need to assault you , what you are going to say in the call to
>the control room ?

....so the call would be to ask for the BTP to be summoned to probably
the next station.

>A cyclist won’t let go of a their bike on a train and I want to move
>it, please send a Policeman

Ah, you did know.

>Control operative to another “ we’ve got that old Git Perry on the Phone ,
>wants help to move a bike on a train down London way”. Other operative
>“Righto , I’ll ask the Met

Bzzt. BTP.

>to break off investigating gang crime and shoplifting right away

Now you are just being silly. (Apart from getting the police force
wrong). The police have different departments for different things.

>and send a couple of bobbies along to meet it and
>tell the cyclist off for holding on to his own property.

For infringing the byelaws. Very likely anti-social behaviour too. The
latter is precisely why[1] I have the contacts with the control room.

It's up to them to decide if they wish to act, but they can't stop me
making the call.

[1] And instructions to encourage members of the public to call 101,
not to get a squad car round, but to log the extent and nature of
incidents.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <kuj200Fe6giU1@mid.individual.net>, at 14:56:01 on Thu, 21
> Dec 2023, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <kuiivaFb1anU1@mid.individual.net>, at 10:39:39 on Thu, 21
>>> Dec 2023, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <kuh4ciF1i0rU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:24:34 on Wed, 20
>>>>
>>>>>> OTOH there seems to be something wrong about the style of that post.
>>>>>> Almost as if someone else has posted in Rolands name, but there again
>>>>>> a couple of his posts don’t seem to flow like they did.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm getting less tolerant, that's for sure.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Pressure of looking after his wife perhaps or early signs of an
>>>>>> age related condition setting in.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh dear, that started off not too bad, but the only age-related
>>>>> condition I have is weakening muscles
>>>
>>>> You hope, intolerance and increased aggressiveness from someone your
>>>> age is often the first sign of of an age related problem .
>>>
>>> Yes, the muscle weakness.
>>>
>> If that continues you won’t really be able to remove the bike(s) even
>> if you wish to, all the keeper of the bike has to do is hold it in
>> place while you huff and puff.
>
> They can do that...
>
>> They won’t need to assault you , what you are going to say in the call to
>> the control room ?
>
> ...so the call would be to ask for the BTP to be summoned to probably
> the next station.
>
>> A cyclist won’t let go of a their bike on a train and I want to move
>> it, please send a Policeman
>
> Ah, you did know.
>
>> Control operative to another “ we’ve got that old Git Perry on the Phone ,
>> wants help to move a bike on a train down London way”. Other operative
>> “Righto , I’ll ask the Met
>
> Bzzt. BTP.
>
>> to break off investigating gang crime and shoplifting right away
>
> Now you are just being silly. (Apart from getting the police force
> wrong). The police have different departments for different things.
>
>> and send a couple of bobbies along to meet it and
>> tell the cyclist off for holding on to his own property.
>
> For infringing the byelaws. Very likely anti-social behaviour too. The
> latter is precisely why[1] I have the contacts with the control room.
>
> It's up to them to decide if they wish to act, but they can't stop me
> making the call.
>
> [1] And instructions to encourage members of the public to call 101,
> not to get a squad car round, but to log the extent and nature of
> incidents.

Christ on a bike, another post from you on a topic from weeks ago that most
will have lost interest in.
as for the nitpicking about the which Police force most on here would
realise that my scenario was example rather than exact and Met flowed
better. You may as well have pulled me up on the use of Policeman instead
of Police officer in case the one attending turned up with tits instead of
a truncheon.

You really must be bored and in these times of Police forces being
stretched thinking you can pull strings somewhat delusional ,another
symptom of getting older.
As for calling 101 many passengers will have reached their stop by the time
t gets answered.

GH

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <kuj200Fe6giU1@mid.individual.net>, at 14:56:01 on Thu, 21
>> Dec 2023, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <kuiivaFb1anU1@mid.individual.net>, at 10:39:39 on Thu, 21
>>>> Dec 2023, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <kuh4ciF1i0rU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:24:34 on Wed, 20
>>>>>
>>>>>>> OTOH there seems to be something wrong about the style of that post.
>>>>>>> Almost as if someone else has posted in Rolands name, but there again
>>>>>>> a couple of his posts don’t seem to flow like they did.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm getting less tolerant, that's for sure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pressure of looking after his wife perhaps or early signs of an
>>>>>>> age related condition setting in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh dear, that started off not too bad, but the only age-related
>>>>>> condition I have is weakening muscles
>>>>
>>>>> You hope, intolerance and increased aggressiveness from someone your
>>>>> age is often the first sign of of an age related problem .
>>>>
>>>> Yes, the muscle weakness.
>>>>
>>> If that continues you won’t really be able to remove the bike(s) even
>>> if you wish to, all the keeper of the bike has to do is hold it in
>>> place while you huff and puff.
>>
>> They can do that...
>>
>>> They won’t need to assault you , what you are going to say in the call to
>>> the control room ?
>>
>> ...so the call would be to ask for the BTP to be summoned to probably
>> the next station.
>>
>>> A cyclist won’t let go of a their bike on a train and I want to move
>>> it, please send a Policeman
>>
>> Ah, you did know.
>>
>>> Control operative to another “ we’ve got that old Git Perry on the Phone ,
>>> wants help to move a bike on a train down London way”. Other operative
>>> “Righto , I’ll ask the Met
>>
>> Bzzt. BTP.
>>
>>> to break off investigating gang crime and shoplifting right away
>>
>> Now you are just being silly. (Apart from getting the police force
>> wrong). The police have different departments for different things.
>>
>>> and send a couple of bobbies along to meet it and
>>> tell the cyclist off for holding on to his own property.
>>
>> For infringing the byelaws. Very likely anti-social behaviour too. The
>> latter is precisely why[1] I have the contacts with the control room.
>>
>> It's up to them to decide if they wish to act, but they can't stop me
>> making the call.
>>
>> [1] And instructions to encourage members of the public to call 101,
>> not to get a squad car round, but to log the extent and nature of
>> incidents.
>
> Christ on a bike, another post from you on a topic from weeks ago that most
> will have lost interest in.

Yes, when Roland responds to a long-forgotten post weeks or months later,
one assumes he's found something important that needs to be added to a
closed discussion, but he adds nothing but his usual content-free
nitpicking. I think this is a new eccentricity from Roland, who's not
ageing well, descending from apparently being one of the most influential
people in the British computer industry four decades ago to a redundant
part-time jobsworth security guard now.

In message <kvgo97Fu9unU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:14:15 on Mon, 1 Jan
2024, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <kuj200Fe6giU1@mid.individual.net>, at 14:56:01 on Thu, 21
>> Dec 2023, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <kuiivaFb1anU1@mid.individual.net>, at 10:39:39 on Thu, 21
>>>> Dec 2023, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <kuh4ciF1i0rU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:24:34 on Wed, 20
>>>>>
>>>>>>> OTOH there seems to be something wrong about the style of that post.
>>>>>>> Almost as if someone else has posted in Rolands name, but there again
>>>>>>> a couple of his posts don’t seem to flow like they did.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm getting less tolerant, that's for sure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pressure of looking after his wife perhaps or early signs of an
>>>>>>> age related condition setting in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh dear, that started off not too bad, but the only age-related
>>>>>> condition I have is weakening muscles
>>>>
>>>>> You hope, intolerance and increased aggressiveness from someone your
>>>>> age is often the first sign of of an age related problem .
>>>>
>>>> Yes, the muscle weakness.
>>>>
>>> If that continues you won’t really be able to remove the bike(s) even
>>> if you wish to, all the keeper of the bike has to do is hold it in
>>> place while you huff and puff.
>>
>> They can do that...
>>
>>> They won’t need to assault you , what you are going to say in the
>>>call to
>>> the control room ?
>>
>> ...so the call would be to ask for the BTP to be summoned to probably
>> the next station.
>>
>>> A cyclist won’t let go of a their bike on a train and I want to move
>>> it, please send a Policeman
>>
>> Ah, you did know.
>>
>>> Control operative to another “ we’ve got that old Git Perry on
>>>the Phone , wants help to move a bike on a train down London way”.
>>>Other operative “Righto , I’ll ask the Met
>>
>> Bzzt. BTP.
>>
>>> to break off investigating gang crime and shoplifting right away
>>
>> Now you are just being silly. (Apart from getting the police force
>> wrong). The police have different departments for different things.
>>
>>> and send a couple of bobbies along to meet it and
>>> tell the cyclist off for holding on to his own property.
>>
>> For infringing the byelaws. Very likely anti-social behaviour too. The
>> latter is precisely why[1] I have the contacts with the control room.
>>
>> It's up to them to decide if they wish to act, but they can't stop me
>> making the call.
>>
>> [1] And instructions to encourage members of the public to call 101,
>> not to get a squad car round, but to log the extent and nature of
>> incidents.
>
>Christ on a bike, another post from you on a topic from weeks ago that most
>will have lost interest in.

I don't have the hours in the day to treat Usenet as a chatline. Get
over it.

>as for the nitpicking about the which Police force most on here would
>realise that my scenario was example rather than exact and Met flowed
>better.

I'd have thought almost everyone here realised the railways were policed
by Transport Police, not the local geographical force.

>You may as well have pulled me up on the use of Policeman instead
>of Police officer in case the one attending turned up with tits instead of
>a truncheon.

That's a completely different category debate. Although as it happens I
have very very rarely seen female BTP, maybe they don't need the
sink-job, or aren't quite as delighted at having to deal largely with
drunken football "fans".

>You really must be bored and in these times of Police forces being
>stretched thinking you can pull strings somewhat delusional ,another
>symptom of getting older.

No, the delusion is yours, in that you fail to understand what strings I
have developed in my various day-jobs.

>As for calling 101 many passengers will have reached their stop by the time
>t gets answered.

I never suggested rail passengers should call 101, you've imagined that.
And as for the delay in response when calling BTP on 61016, that's
precisely why I would consider pulling one of those strings.
--
Roland Perry

In message <9jGkN.33585$Xs07.7712@fx06.ams1>, at 21:40:21 on Mon, 1 Jan
2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <kuj200Fe6giU1@mid.individual.net>, at 14:56:01 on Thu, 21
>>> Dec 2023, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <kuiivaFb1anU1@mid.individual.net>, at 10:39:39 on Thu, 21
>>>>> Dec 2023, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <kuh4ciF1i0rU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:24:34 on Wed, 20
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OTOH there seems to be something wrong about the style of that post.
>>>>>>>> Almost as if someone else has posted in Rolands name, but there again
>>>>>>>> a couple of his posts don’t seem to flow like they did.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm getting less tolerant, that's for sure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pressure of looking after his wife perhaps or early signs of an
>>>>>>>> age related condition setting in.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oh dear, that started off not too bad, but the only age-related
>>>>>>> condition I have is weakening muscles
>>>>>
>>>>>> You hope, intolerance and increased aggressiveness from someone your
>>>>>> age is often the first sign of of an age related problem .
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, the muscle weakness.
>>>>>
>>>> If that continues you won’t really be able to remove the bike(s) even
>>>> if you wish to, all the keeper of the bike has to do is hold it in
>>>> place while you huff and puff.
>>>
>>> They can do that...
>>>
>>>> They won’t need to assault you , what you are going to say in
>>>>the call to
>>>> the control room ?
>>>
>>> ...so the call would be to ask for the BTP to be summoned to probably
>>> the next station.
>>>
>>>> A cyclist won’t let go of a their bike on a train and I want to move
>>>> it, please send a Policeman
>>>
>>> Ah, you did know.
>>>
>>>> Control operative to another “ we’ve got that old Git Perry on
>>>>the Phone ,
>>>> wants help to move a bike on a train down London way”. Other operative
>>>> “Righto , I’ll ask the Met
>>>
>>> Bzzt. BTP.
>>>
>>>> to break off investigating gang crime and shoplifting right away
>>>
>>> Now you are just being silly. (Apart from getting the police force
>>> wrong). The police have different departments for different things.
>>>
>>>> and send a couple of bobbies along to meet it and
>>>> tell the cyclist off for holding on to his own property.
>>>
>>> For infringing the byelaws. Very likely anti-social behaviour too. The
>>> latter is precisely why[1] I have the contacts with the control room.
>>>
>>> It's up to them to decide if they wish to act, but they can't stop me
>>> making the call.
>>>
>>> [1] And instructions to encourage members of the public to call 101,
>>> not to get a squad car round, but to log the extent and nature of
>>> incidents.
>>
>> Christ on a bike, another post from you on a topic from weeks ago that most
>> will have lost interest in.
>
>Yes, when Roland responds to a long-forgotten post weeks or months later,
>one assumes he's found something important that needs to be added to a
>closed discussion, but he adds nothing but his usual content-free
>nitpicking.

<yawn>

>I think this is a new eccentricity from Roland, who's not ageing well,
>descending from apparently being one of the most influential people in
>the British computer industry four decades ago

Why do you keep insisting it stopped four decades ago? Lack of research
I presume.

And that kind of abusive response is exactly why I'll be finding out who
you are, and why you continue in your organised campaign of harassment.
Which, by the way, is against the law.

>to a redundant part-time jobsworth security guard now.

It's a multi-faceted part time job I retired from, and not remotely like
a "security guard". Even if one of the facets was understanding the way
the authorities can be triggered to respond to anti-social behaviour,
including actually triggering them when necessary.
--
Roland Perry