Just because we all know how much of a knot the Toyota apologists around
here like to get their knickers in, just thought I'd share another
little "Toyota Tidbit" I discovered yesterday.

I was doing a small love job on a 2011 Corolla that belongs to the
mother of the lady who washes my dog. It had a problem with the starter
that made a horrible noise when you cranked the engine and she'd been
quoted some stupid amount of money to have it replaced which she wasn't
keep on paying as she was selling the car soon and didn't want to fork
out on it unless she had to.

So I told her to bring it over and I'll take a peek. Long story short
when you cranked the engine it sounded like the starter pinion wasn't
retracting quick enough causing either a mesh or overspeed issue, and as
the starter on this particular model takes all of 10 minutes to get out
I thought I would take it out and have a look.

Turns out the starter was full of clutch dust and dry, hardened grease,
and after a quick dismantle and clean and some new grease it was put
back together and back in the car and it's all working as it should.

Anyway, onto the interesting bit.

This is the starter here. Nothing special:

> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MK7

This is what I found when I removed the solenoid:

> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKG

The field coil lead attaches directly to the solenoid, but instead of
having an eyelet or ring terminal soldered or crimped onto the end of it
like most other starters this one is just wrapped around the stud and
jammed in place with the nut.

Not even with a washer :)

Pretty fucking pisseak I thought, so I wondered how many other starters
are like that? I have a few laying around here so I had a look.

Couple of Mazda ones here:

> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKP

Nope, They both have soldered eyelets.

A Mitsubishi one:

> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKU

Nope. Crimped eyelet as well.

Even a dirty old Ford V8 starter:

> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKW

Yep. Crimped terminal there too.

Cool, huh? Looks like Toyota has been actively engaged in making their
cars as cheap as they possibly can by saving 4 cents on each Corolla by
not using a proper terminal on the starter coil wire.

Remind me again why some people think everything they make is fantastic?
Oh, what a feeling :)

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 1/06/2022 9:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
>
> Just because we all know how much of a knot the Toyota apologists around

<snip irrelevant>

LOL, so you're making a big deal about something that neither affects
performance or longevity but failing timing chains and transmissions on
Nissans (and Ranger) get a free pass?

Your agenda is showing, dickhead.
--
keith on the 7 Oct 2021 wrote;
"He asserts that the claim is true, so, if
it is unproven, he is lying."

On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 22:02:11 +0800, Clocky wrote:

> On 1/06/2022 9:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>
>> Just because we all know how much of a knot the Toyota apologists around
>
> <snip irrelevant>
>
> LOL, so you're making a big deal about something that neither affects
> performance or longevity but failing timing chains and transmissions on
> Nissans (and Ranger) get a free pass?
>
> Your agenda is showing, dickhead.

Showing that it's arse about. He's gone to this effort to try and score a
trivial point, but proving his Big Claims is below it?

And on this trivial point... How do you tell if the dodgy starter is Toyota
kit?

alvey

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

>
>Remind me again why some people think everything they make is fantastic?
>Oh, what a feeling :)

Perhaps, like batteries, they're meant to be consumables.

The RACV (Victoria) have specialist vans for starter motor
replacements and for batteries. I have used both.
The Man in the Van whizzes out and changes over the part in 15min and
invites a choice between Chinese & Toyota parts. There's a credit
for exchanging a genuine Toyota starter for a Chinese one.
For batteries there's a charger checkup too.

About $400 for the c. motor & service call.

I carry a length of water pipe behind the back seat to give the C
motor a good whack if necessary. So far good luck.

On 1/06/2022 11:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
>
> Just because we all know how much of a knot the Toyota apologists around
> here like to get their knickers in, just thought I'd share another
> little "Toyota Tidbit" I discovered yesterday.
>
> I was doing a small love job on a 2011 Corolla that belongs to the
> mother of the lady who washes my dog. It had a problem with the starter
> that made a horrible noise when you cranked the engine and she'd been
> quoted some stupid amount of money to have it replaced which she wasn't
> keep on paying as she was selling the car soon and didn't want to fork
> out on it unless she had to.
>
> So I told her to bring it over and I'll take a peek. Long story short
> when you cranked the engine it sounded like the starter pinion wasn't
> retracting quick enough causing either a mesh or overspeed issue, and as
> the starter on this particular model takes all of 10 minutes to get out
> I thought I would take it out and have a look.
>
> Turns out the starter was full of clutch dust and dry, hardened grease,
> and after a quick dismantle and clean and some new grease it was put
> back together and back in the car and it's all working as it should.
>
> Anyway, onto the interesting bit.
>
> This is the starter here. Nothing special:
>
>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MK7
>
> This is what I found when I removed the solenoid:
>
>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKG
>
> The field coil lead attaches directly to the solenoid, but instead of
> having an eyelet or ring terminal soldered or crimped onto the end of it
> like most other starters this one is just wrapped around the stud and
> jammed in place with the nut.
>
> Not even with a washer :)
>
> Pretty fucking pisseak I thought, so I wondered how many other starters
> are like that? I have a few laying around here so I had a look.
>
> Couple of Mazda ones here:
>
>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKP
>
> Nope, They both have soldered eyelets.
>
> A Mitsubishi one:
>
>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKU
>
> Nope. Crimped eyelet as well.
>
> Even a dirty old Ford V8 starter:
>
>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKW
>
> Yep. Crimped terminal there too.
>
> Cool, huh? Looks like Toyota has been actively engaged in making their
> cars as cheap as they possibly can by saving 4 cents on each Corolla by
> not using a proper terminal on the starter coil wire.
>
> Remind me again why some people think everything they make is fantastic?
> Oh, what a feeling :)
>

**Are you suggesting that you know, without any doubt, that the car has
never been worked on previously on that component?

On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 07:34:33 +1000, Trevor Wilson wrote:

> On 1/06/2022 11:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>
>> Just because we all know how much of a knot the Toyota apologists around
>> here like to get their knickers in, just thought I'd share another
>> little "Toyota Tidbit" I discovered yesterday.
>>
>> I was doing a small love job on a 2011 Corolla that belongs to the
>> mother of the lady who washes my dog. It had a problem with the starter
>> that made a horrible noise when you cranked the engine and she'd been
>> quoted some stupid amount of money to have it replaced which she wasn't
>> keep on paying as she was selling the car soon and didn't want to fork
>> out on it unless she had to.
>>
>> So I told her to bring it over and I'll take a peek. Long story short
>> when you cranked the engine it sounded like the starter pinion wasn't
>> retracting quick enough causing either a mesh or overspeed issue, and as
>> the starter on this particular model takes all of 10 minutes to get out
>> I thought I would take it out and have a look.
>>
>> Turns out the starter was full of clutch dust and dry, hardened grease,
>> and after a quick dismantle and clean and some new grease it was put
>> back together and back in the car and it's all working as it should.
>>
>> Anyway, onto the interesting bit.
>>
>> This is the starter here. Nothing special:
>>
>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MK7
>>
>> This is what I found when I removed the solenoid:
>>
>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKG
>>
>> The field coil lead attaches directly to the solenoid, but instead of
>> having an eyelet or ring terminal soldered or crimped onto the end of it
>> like most other starters this one is just wrapped around the stud and
>> jammed in place with the nut.
>>
>> Not even with a washer :)
>>
>> Pretty fucking pisseak I thought, so I wondered how many other starters
>> are like that? I have a few laying around here so I had a look.
>>
>> Couple of Mazda ones here:
>>
>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKP
>>
>> Nope, They both have soldered eyelets.
>>
>> A Mitsubishi one:
>>
>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKU
>>
>> Nope. Crimped eyelet as well.
>>
>> Even a dirty old Ford V8 starter:
>>
>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKW
>>
>> Yep. Crimped terminal there too.
>>
>> Cool, huh? Looks like Toyota has been actively engaged in making their
>> cars as cheap as they possibly can by saving 4 cents on each Corolla by
>> not using a proper terminal on the starter coil wire.
>>
>> Remind me again why some people think everything they make is fantastic?
>> Oh, what a feeling :)
>>
>
> **Are you suggesting that you know, without any doubt, that the car has
> never been worked on previously on that component?

Does this help?

https://parts.toyota.com/a/Toyota_2011_Corolla/69294639__6730963/STARTER/155460-1904.html

alvey

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 2/06/2022 8:00 am, alvey wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 07:34:33 +1000, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
>> On 1/06/2022 11:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>
>>> Just because we all know how much of a knot the Toyota apologists around
>>> here like to get their knickers in, just thought I'd share another
>>> little "Toyota Tidbit" I discovered yesterday.
>>>
>>> I was doing a small love job on a 2011 Corolla that belongs to the
>>> mother of the lady who washes my dog. It had a problem with the starter
>>> that made a horrible noise when you cranked the engine and she'd been
>>> quoted some stupid amount of money to have it replaced which she wasn't
>>> keep on paying as she was selling the car soon and didn't want to fork
>>> out on it unless she had to.
>>>
>>> So I told her to bring it over and I'll take a peek. Long story short
>>> when you cranked the engine it sounded like the starter pinion wasn't
>>> retracting quick enough causing either a mesh or overspeed issue, and as
>>> the starter on this particular model takes all of 10 minutes to get out
>>> I thought I would take it out and have a look.
>>>
>>> Turns out the starter was full of clutch dust and dry, hardened grease,
>>> and after a quick dismantle and clean and some new grease it was put
>>> back together and back in the car and it's all working as it should.
>>>
>>> Anyway, onto the interesting bit.
>>>
>>> This is the starter here. Nothing special:
>>>
>>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MK7
>>>
>>> This is what I found when I removed the solenoid:
>>>
>>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKG
>>>
>>> The field coil lead attaches directly to the solenoid, but instead of
>>> having an eyelet or ring terminal soldered or crimped onto the end of it
>>> like most other starters this one is just wrapped around the stud and
>>> jammed in place with the nut.
>>>
>>> Not even with a washer :)
>>>
>>> Pretty fucking pisseak I thought, so I wondered how many other starters
>>> are like that? I have a few laying around here so I had a look.
>>>
>>> Couple of Mazda ones here:
>>>
>>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKP
>>>
>>> Nope, They both have soldered eyelets.
>>>
>>> A Mitsubishi one:
>>>
>>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKU
>>>
>>> Nope. Crimped eyelet as well.
>>>
>>> Even a dirty old Ford V8 starter:
>>>
>>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKW
>>>
>>> Yep. Crimped terminal there too.
>>>
>>> Cool, huh? Looks like Toyota has been actively engaged in making their
>>> cars as cheap as they possibly can by saving 4 cents on each Corolla by
>>> not using a proper terminal on the starter coil wire.
>>>
>>> Remind me again why some people think everything they make is fantastic?
>>> Oh, what a feeling :)
>>>
>>
>> **Are you suggesting that you know, without any doubt, that the car has
>> never been worked on previously on that component?
>
> Does this help?
>
> https://parts.toyota.com/a/Toyota_2011_Corolla/69294639__6730963/STARTER/155460-1904.html

**A little. Obviously, it is difficult to see any detail, but it appears
Toyota dropped the ball on this issue.

On 2/06/2022 7:34 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 1/06/2022 11:26 pm, Noddy wrote:

>> Cool, huh? Looks like Toyota has been actively engaged in making their
>> cars as cheap as they possibly can by saving 4 cents on each Corolla
>> by not using a proper terminal on the starter coil wire.
>>
>> Remind me again why some people think everything they make is
>> fantastic? Oh, what a feeling :)
>>
>
> **Are you suggesting that you know, without any doubt, that the car has
> never been worked on previously on that component?

Well, given that the owner has owned the car since it was new and this
is the first time a problem with the starter has developed, combined
with the fact that the starter itself has a nice shiny green "Toyota"
sticker on the side of it with the part number I would think it was a
fairly safe bet to suggest that this was how it left the factory.

I can't be 100% certain of course, but it's highly unlikely that it has
been modified before.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 2/06/2022 9:13 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 2/06/2022 7:34 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 1/06/2022 11:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
>
>>> Cool, huh? Looks like Toyota has been actively engaged in making
>>> their cars as cheap as they possibly can by saving 4 cents on each
>>> Corolla by not using a proper terminal on the starter coil wire.
>>>
>>> Remind me again why some people think everything they make is
>>> fantastic? Oh, what a feeling :)
>>>
>>
>> **Are you suggesting that you know, without any doubt, that the car
>> has never been worked on previously on that component?
>
> Well, given that the owner has owned the car since it was new and this
> is the first time a problem with the starter has developed, combined
> with the fact that the starter itself has a nice shiny green "Toyota"
> sticker on the side of it with the part number I would think it was a
> fairly safe bet to suggest that this was how it left the factory.

Correction: The Toyota starter has a *pink* label. One of the other
starters I picked up yesterday for comparison had a green label.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 2/06/2022 8:37 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 2/06/2022 8:00 am, alvey wrote:
>> On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 07:34:33 +1000, Trevor Wilson wrote:

>>> **Are you suggesting that you know, without any doubt, that the car has
>>> never been worked on previously on that component?
>>
>> Does this help?
>>
>> https://parts.toyota.com/a/Toyota_2011_Corolla/69294639__6730963/STARTER/155460-1904.html
>>
>
> **A little.

It doesn't really. It's just a generic exploded drawing, and while it
identifies the key components of your average starter motor it doesn't
relate to this particular one specifically.

> Obviously, it is difficult to see any detail, but it appears
> Toyota dropped the ball on this issue.

Only if you consider deliberate cost cutting to be "ball dropping".

Toyota, like many other manufacturers, make very few of their own
electrical components and instead rely on 3rd party suppliers. In this
case the starter was made by Denso, who have a long history and
connection with Toyota. Toyota would be dictating terms to Denso as to
exactly what they wanted, including the price point they were prepared
to pay per unit. Denso, in response, would be cutting as many corners as
they could to meet that criteria. The result is what was seen in the
pictures.

As to whether Toyota specifically demanded that the starter be supplied
without a terminal attached to the field coil lead I can't say one way
or the other, but *someone* clearly decided that doing so was necessary
to meet the requirements and Toyota certainly approved it for use.

This is the actual starter in position with the original "factory" label
clearly visible:

> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3TI8

As can be seen it is the factory original starter, and it is highly
unlikely that it has ever been modified.

Hey Kryppy. You have a Corolla, right? Take a photo of yours and post it
here so we can see if this is a "one off" or whether Toyota really is
that much of a pack of penny pinching pricks that they have to resort to
bullshit practices like this in order to make their billions.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 1/6/2022 11:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
>
> Just because we all know how much of a knot the Toyota apologists around
> here like to get their knickers in, just thought I'd share another
> little "Toyota Tidbit" I discovered yesterday.
>
> I was doing a small love job on a 2011 Corolla that belongs to the
> mother of the lady who washes my dog. It had a problem with the starter
> that made a horrible noise when you cranked the engine and she'd been
> quoted some stupid amount of money to have it replaced which she wasn't
> keep on paying as she was selling the car soon and didn't want to fork
> out on it unless she had to.
>
> So I told her to bring it over and I'll take a peek. Long story short
> when you cranked the engine it sounded like the starter pinion wasn't
> retracting quick enough causing either a mesh or overspeed issue, and as
> the starter on this particular model takes all of 10 minutes to get out
> I thought I would take it out and have a look.
>
> Turns out the starter was full of clutch dust and dry, hardened grease,
> and after a quick dismantle and clean and some new grease it was put
> back together and back in the car and it's all working as it should.
>
> Anyway, onto the interesting bit.
>
> This is the starter here. Nothing special:
>
>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MK7
>
> This is what I found when I removed the solenoid:
>
>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKG
>
> The field coil lead attaches directly to the solenoid, but instead of
> having an eyelet or ring terminal soldered or crimped onto the end of it
> like most other starters this one is just wrapped around the stud and
> jammed in place with the nut.
>
> Not even with a washer :)

Rough and cheap as that looks was it actually causing a problem?
Only starter that I have here not attached to a car is from a 2005
Diahatsu Charade, it has the same "twisted wire" as the Corolla starter.
I know it works because I started the engine to test it before removing
the engine, couldn't use it because it fits an auto and son's Mira is
manual.
I wonder if it is cheaper to do it that way, twisting the wire into the
right shape would take longer and more effort than crimping a terminal
so maybe there is another reason?

--
Daryl

On 2/06/2022 6:16 am, alvey wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 22:02:11 +0800, Clocky wrote:
>
>> On 1/06/2022 9:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>> Just because we all know how much of a knot the Toyota apologists around
>> <snip irrelevant>
>>
>> LOL, so you're making a big deal about something that neither affects
>> performance or longevity but failing timing chains and transmissions on
>> Nissans (and Ranger) get a free pass?
>>
>> Your agenda is showing, dickhead.
> Showing that it's arse about. He's gone to this effort to try and score a
> trivial point, but proving his Big Claims is below it?
>
> And on this trivial point... How do you tell if the dodgy starter is Toyota
> kit?
>

yes the default position for anything noddy says is that it's probably a lie

>
> alvey
>

--
https://tinyurl.com/Yosemite-Sam

"So some infantile nonsense and running away
again I see. Your standard MO."-Clocky on Keefy

FUCK PUTIN!!

On 2/06/2022 10:39 am, Daryl wrote:
> On 1/6/2022 11:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>
>> Just because we all know how much of a knot the Toyota apologists
>> around here like to get their knickers in, just thought I'd share
>> another little "Toyota Tidbit" I discovered yesterday.
>>
>> I was doing a small love job on a 2011 Corolla that belongs to the
>> mother of the lady who washes my dog. It had a problem with the
>> starter that made a horrible noise when you cranked the engine and
>> she'd been quoted some stupid amount of money to have it replaced
>> which she wasn't keep on paying as she was selling the car soon and
>> didn't want to fork out on it unless she had to.
>>
>> So I told her to bring it over and I'll take a peek. Long story short
>> when you cranked the engine it sounded like the starter pinion wasn't
>> retracting quick enough causing either a mesh or overspeed issue, and
>> as the starter on this particular model takes all of 10 minutes to
>> get out I thought I would take it out and have a look.
>>
>> Turns out the starter was full of clutch dust and dry, hardened
>> grease, and after a quick dismantle and clean and some new grease it
>> was put back together and back in the car and it's all working as it
>> should.
>>
>> Anyway, onto the interesting bit.
>>
>> This is the starter here. Nothing special:
>>
>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MK7
>>
>> This is what I found when I removed the solenoid:
>>
>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKG
>>
>> The field coil lead attaches directly to the solenoid, but instead of
>> having an eyelet or ring terminal soldered or crimped onto the end of
>> it like most other starters this one is just wrapped around the stud
>> and jammed in place with the nut.
>>
>> Not even with a washer :)
>
> Rough and cheap as that looks was it actually causing a problem?
> Only starter that I have here not attached to a car is from a 2005
> Diahatsu Charade, it has the same "twisted wire" as the Corolla starter.
> I know it works because I started the engine to test it before
> removing the engine, couldn't use it because it fits an auto and son's
> Mira is manual.
> I wonder if it is cheaper to do it that way, twisting the wire into
> the right shape would take longer and more effort than crimping a
> terminal so maybe there is another reason?
>
>

by twisting the cable the entire cable is in contact with the bolt and
nut so a greater capacity to pass more current than if a crimped on
connector were used

https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKG  vs
https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKP

--
https://tinyurl.com/Yosemite-Sam

"So some infantile nonsense and running away again
I see. Your standard MO." -Clocky on Keefy

FUCK PUTIN!!

On 2/06/2022 10:10 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 2/06/2022 8:37 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 2/06/2022 8:00 am, alvey wrote:
>>> On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 07:34:33 +1000, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
>>>> **Are you suggesting that you know, without any doubt, that the car
>>>> has
>>>> never been worked on previously on that component?
>>>
>>> Does this help?
>>>
>>> https://parts.toyota.com/a/Toyota_2011_Corolla/69294639__6730963/STARTER/155460-1904.html
>>>
>>
>> **A little.
>
> It doesn't really. It's just a generic exploded drawing, and while it
> identifies the key components of your average starter motor it doesn't
> relate to this particular one specifically.
>
>> Obviously, it is difficult to see any detail, but it appears Toyota
>> dropped the ball on this issue.
>
> Only if you consider deliberate cost cutting to be "ball dropping".
>
> Toyota, like many other manufacturers, make very few of their own
> electrical components and instead rely on 3rd party suppliers. In this
> case the starter was made by Denso, who have a long history and
> connection with Toyota. Toyota would be dictating terms to Denso as to
> exactly what they wanted, including the price point they were prepared
> to pay per unit. Denso, in response, would be cutting as many corners
> as they could to meet that criteria. The result is what was seen in
> the pictures.
>
> As to whether Toyota specifically demanded that the starter be
> supplied without a terminal attached to the field coil lead I can't
> say one way or the other, but *someone* clearly decided that doing so
> was necessary to meet the requirements and Toyota certainly approved
> it for use.
>
> This is the actual starter in position with the original "factory"
> label clearly visible:
>
>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3TI8
>
> As can be seen it is the factory original starter, and it is highly
> unlikely that it has ever been modified.
>
> Hey Kryppy. You have a Corolla, right? Take a photo of yours and post
> it here so we can see if this is a "one off" or whether Toyota really
> is that much of a pack of penny pinching pricks that they have to
> resort to bullshit practices like this in order to make their billions.
>

you have him blocked so you won't see it dumbass. unless one of your
minons 'echos' it for you of course.

--
https://tinyurl.com/Yosemite-Sam

"So some infantile nonsense and running away again
I see. Your standard MO." -Clocky on Keefy

FUCK PUTIN!!

On 2/06/2022 10:39 am, Daryl wrote:
> On 1/6/2022 11:26 pm, Noddy wrote:

>> This is what I found when I removed the solenoid:
>>
>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKG
>>
>> The field coil lead attaches directly to the solenoid, but instead of
>> having an eyelet or ring terminal soldered or crimped onto the end of
>> it like most other starters this one is just wrapped around the stud
>> and jammed in place with the nut.
>>
>> Not even with a washer :)
>
> Rough and cheap as that looks was it actually causing a problem?

Not that I'm aware of. According to the owner this is the first time the
car's had a starter problem since she bought it new 11 years ago, and
from what I can tell the problem that developed isn't related to the
lead connection.

However that doesn't remove the fact that the connection method itself
is pretty pissweak for a high current application. Most people would be
reluctant to have their battery leads secured in such a way....

> Only starter that I have here not attached to a car is from a 2005
> Diahatsu Charade, it has the same "twisted wire" as the Corolla starter.
> I know it works because I started the engine to test it before removing
> the engine, couldn't use it because it fits an auto and son's Mira is
> manual.

Is it a Denso starter by any chance? I wonder if that's their policy.

> I wonder if it is cheaper to do it that way, twisting the wire into the
> right shape would take longer and more effort than crimping a terminal
> so maybe there is another reason?

I can't imagine it would be any more difficult or time consuming to form
the bare wire into the required shape than it would be to crimp on a
terminal during the manufacturing process, so the differences in costs
relating to manufacturing processes would be negligible. However in
using the bare wire on it's own they are removing the terminal from the
picture altogether, and the only logical reason I can see why they would
possibly want to do that would be to reduce the manufacturing costs.

As I said it doesn't seem to have affected the starter operation in any
way, but it is *still* a cheap and nasty approach to component
manufacture that doesn't seem to do anything other than add to Toyota's
bank balance.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 10:10:04 +1000, Noddy wrote:

> On 2/06/2022 8:37 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 2/06/2022 8:00 am, alvey wrote:
>>> On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 07:34:33 +1000, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
>>>> **Are you suggesting that you know, without any doubt, that the car has
>>>> never been worked on previously on that component?
>>>
>>> Does this help?
>>>
>>> https://parts.toyota.com/a/Toyota_2011_Corolla/69294639__6730963/STARTER/155460-1904.html
>>>
>>
>> **A little.
>
> It doesn't really. It's just a generic exploded drawing, and while it
> identifies the key components of your average starter motor it doesn't
> relate to this particular one specifically.
>
>> Obviously, it is difficult to see any detail, but it appears
>> Toyota dropped the ball on this issue.
>
> Only if you consider deliberate cost cutting to be "ball dropping".
>
> Toyota, like many other manufacturers, make very few of their own
> electrical components and instead rely on 3rd party suppliers. In this
> case the starter was made by Denso, who have a long history and
> connection with Toyota. Toyota would be dictating terms to Denso as to
> exactly what they wanted, including the price point they were prepared
> to pay per unit. Denso, in response, would be cutting as many corners as
> they could to meet that criteria. The result is what was seen in the
> pictures.
>
> As to whether Toyota specifically demanded that the starter be supplied
> without a terminal attached to the field coil lead I can't say one way
> or the other, but *someone* clearly decided that doing so was necessary
> to meet the requirements and Toyota certainly approved it for use.
>
> This is the actual starter in position with the original "factory" label
> clearly visible:
>
>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3TI8
>
> As can be seen it is the factory original starter, and it is highly
> unlikely that it has ever been modified.

Hang on.
Who is "DENSO"? The 428000 is a DENSO part prefix for a starter.
https://www.denso.com.au/part-search

alvey

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Thursday, 2 June 2022 at 11:47:37 UTC+10, Noddy wrote:
> On 2/06/2022 10:39 am, Daryl wrote:
> > On 1/6/2022 11:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
>
> >> This is what I found when I removed the solenoid:
> >>
> >>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKG
> >>
> >> The field coil lead attaches directly to the solenoid, but instead of
> >> having an eyelet or ring terminal soldered or crimped onto the end of
> >> it like most other starters this one is just wrapped around the stud
> >> and jammed in place with the nut.
> >>
> >> Not even with a washer :)
> >
> > Rough and cheap as that looks was it actually causing a problem?
> Not that I'm aware of. According to the owner this is the first time the
> car's had a starter problem since she bought it new 11 years ago, and
> from what I can tell the problem that developed isn't related to the
> lead connection.
>
> However that doesn't remove the fact that the connection method itself
> is pretty pissweak for a high current application. Most people would be
> reluctant to have their battery leads secured in such a way....
> > Only starter that I have here not attached to a car is from a 2005
> > Diahatsu Charade, it has the same "twisted wire" as the Corolla starter.
> > I know it works because I started the engine to test it before removing
> > the engine, couldn't use it because it fits an auto and son's Mira is
> > manual.
> Is it a Denso starter by any chance? I wonder if that's their policy.
> > I wonder if it is cheaper to do it that way, twisting the wire into the
> > right shape would take longer and more effort than crimping a terminal
> > so maybe there is another reason?
> I can't imagine it would be any more difficult or time consuming to form
> the bare wire into the required shape than it would be to crimp on a
> terminal during the manufacturing process, so the differences in costs
> relating to manufacturing processes would be negligible. However in
> using the bare wire on it's own they are removing the terminal from the
> picture altogether, and the only logical reason I can see why they would
> possibly want to do that would be to reduce the manufacturing costs.
>
> As I said it doesn't seem to have affected the starter operation in any
> way, but it is *still* a cheap and nasty approach to component
> manufacture that doesn't seem to do anything other than add to Toyota's
> bank balance.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well, *that* got the chooks a'cluckin', and the wankers wankin'.....A little light entertainment never goes astray. :)))
I think *all* of the usual suspects participated as well. well done!!!!
> --
> --
> --
> Regards,
> Noddy.

On 2/06/2022 12:16 pm, jonz@ nothere.com wrote:
> On Thursday, 2 June 2022 at 11:47:37 UTC+10, Noddy wrote:
>> On 2/06/2022 10:39 am, Daryl wrote:

>> As I said it doesn't seem to have affected the starter operation in any
>> way, but it is *still* a cheap and nasty approach to component
>> manufacture that doesn't seem to do anything other than add to Toyota's
>> bank balance.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Well, *that* got the chooks a'cluckin', and the wankers wankin'.....A little light entertainment never goes astray. :)))
> I think *all* of the usual suspects participated as well. well done!!!!

As expected.

There are one or two Dunning-Kruger poster childs here who insist that
Toyota make high end products which is nothing other than swallowing the
"unbreakable" bullshit of their marketing department.

The reality is that their stuff is no better than that of anyone else,
in in some cases it's quite inferior.

As in this example.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 2/06/2022 4:16 am, alvey wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 22:02:11 +0800, Clocky wrote:
>
>> On 1/06/2022 9:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>
>>> Just because we all know how much of a knot the Toyota apologists around
>>
>> <snip irrelevant>
>>
>> LOL, so you're making a big deal about something that neither affects
>> performance or longevity but failing timing chains and transmissions on
>> Nissans (and Ranger) get a free pass?
>>
>> Your agenda is showing, dickhead.
>
> Showing that it's arse about. He's gone to this effort to try and score a
> trivial point, but proving his Big Claims is below it?
>

Well it's easier to score trivial and meaningless points compared to
proving something you don't possess and haven't done as previously
claimed you had. It's a distraction but nothing more - just like his
'nah not proving I'm qualified but look I have cable ties, even if none
were multi-coloured in support of my claim' nonsense.

> And on this trivial point... How do you tell if the dodgy starter is Toyota
> kit?
>
>
The brand/model and other identifiers are usually a giveaway and these
are on a label on the starter motor. Neither are visible in the photo so
it's not a given that it's a Toyota starter. (that had crossed my mind)

>
> alvey
>

--
keith on the 7 Oct 2021 wrote;
"He asserts that the claim is true, so, if
it is unproven, he is lying."

On 2/06/2022 6:37 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 2/06/2022 8:00 am, alvey wrote:
>> On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 07:34:33 +1000, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/06/2022 11:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Just because we all know how much of a knot the Toyota apologists
>>>> around
>>>> here like to get their knickers in, just thought I'd share another
>>>> little "Toyota Tidbit" I discovered yesterday.
>>>>
>>>> I was doing a small love job on a 2011 Corolla that belongs to the
>>>> mother of the lady who washes my dog. It had a problem with the starter
>>>> that made a horrible noise when you cranked the engine and she'd been
>>>> quoted some stupid amount of money to have it replaced which she wasn't
>>>> keep on paying as she was selling the car soon and didn't want to fork
>>>> out on it unless she had to.
>>>>
>>>> So I told her to bring it over and I'll take a peek. Long story short
>>>> when you cranked the engine it sounded like the starter pinion wasn't
>>>> retracting quick enough causing either a mesh or overspeed issue,
>>>> and as
>>>> the starter on this particular model takes all of 10 minutes to get out
>>>> I thought I would take it out and have a look.
>>>>
>>>> Turns out the starter was full of clutch dust and dry, hardened grease,
>>>> and after a quick dismantle and clean and some new grease it was put
>>>> back together and back in the car and it's all working as it should.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, onto the interesting bit.
>>>>
>>>> This is the starter here. Nothing special:
>>>>
>>>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MK7
>>>>
>>>> This is what I found when I removed the solenoid:
>>>>
>>>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKG
>>>>
>>>> The field coil lead attaches directly to the solenoid, but instead of
>>>> having an eyelet or ring terminal soldered or crimped onto the end
>>>> of it
>>>> like most other starters this one is just wrapped around the stud and
>>>> jammed in place with the nut.
>>>>
>>>> Not even with a washer :)
>>>>
>>>> Pretty fucking pisseak I thought, so I wondered how many other starters
>>>> are like that? I have a few laying around here so I had a look.
>>>>
>>>> Couple of Mazda ones here:
>>>>
>>>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKP
>>>>
>>>> Nope, They both have soldered eyelets.
>>>>
>>>> A Mitsubishi one:
>>>>
>>>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKU
>>>>
>>>> Nope. Crimped eyelet as well.
>>>>
>>>> Even a dirty old Ford V8 starter:
>>>>
>>>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKW
>>>>
>>>> Yep. Crimped terminal there too.
>>>>
>>>> Cool, huh? Looks like Toyota has been actively engaged in making their
>>>> cars as cheap as they possibly can by saving 4 cents on each Corolla by
>>>> not using a proper terminal on the starter coil wire.
>>>>
>>>> Remind me again why some people think everything they make is
>>>> fantastic?
>>>> Oh, what a feeling :)
>>>>
>>>
>>> **Are you suggesting that you know, without any doubt, that the car has
>>> never been worked on previously on that component?
>>
>> Does this help?
>>
>> https://parts.toyota.com/a/Toyota_2011_Corolla/69294639__6730963/STARTER/155460-1904.html
>>
>
> **A little. Obviously, it is difficult to see any detail, but it appears
> Toyota dropped the ball on this issue.

What "issue"?

--
keith on the 7 Oct 2021 wrote;
"He asserts that the claim is true, so, if
it is unproven, he is lying."

On 2/06/2022 10:08 am, alvey wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 10:10:04 +1000, Noddy wrote:
>
>> On 2/06/2022 8:37 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 2/06/2022 8:00 am, alvey wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 07:34:33 +1000, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>
>>>>> **Are you suggesting that you know, without any doubt, that the car has
>>>>> never been worked on previously on that component?
>>>>
>>>> Does this help?
>>>>
>>>> https://parts.toyota.com/a/Toyota_2011_Corolla/69294639__6730963/STARTER/155460-1904.html
>>>>
>>>
>>> **A little.
>>
>> It doesn't really. It's just a generic exploded drawing, and while it
>> identifies the key components of your average starter motor it doesn't
>> relate to this particular one specifically.
>>
>>> Obviously, it is difficult to see any detail, but it appears
>>> Toyota dropped the ball on this issue.
>>
>> Only if you consider deliberate cost cutting to be "ball dropping".
>>
>> Toyota, like many other manufacturers, make very few of their own
>> electrical components and instead rely on 3rd party suppliers. In this
>> case the starter was made by Denso, who have a long history and
>> connection with Toyota. Toyota would be dictating terms to Denso as to
>> exactly what they wanted, including the price point they were prepared
>> to pay per unit. Denso, in response, would be cutting as many corners as
>> they could to meet that criteria. The result is what was seen in the
>> pictures.
>>
>> As to whether Toyota specifically demanded that the starter be supplied
>> without a terminal attached to the field coil lead I can't say one way
>> or the other, but *someone* clearly decided that doing so was necessary
>> to meet the requirements and Toyota certainly approved it for use.
>>
>> This is the actual starter in position with the original "factory" label
>> clearly visible:
>>
>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3TI8
>>
>> As can be seen it is the factory original starter, and it is highly
>> unlikely that it has ever been modified.
>
> Hang on.
> Who is "DENSO"? The 428000 is a DENSO part prefix for a starter.
> https://www.denso.com.au/part-search
>
>
>
> alvey
>

Denso make starter motors for lots of manufacturers, Toyota included.
You can bet that any given manufacturer will have the same design on one
of their vehicles. Despite the frauds ridiculous nonsense, it's not even
a "Toyota" specific thing.

--
keith on the 7 Oct 2021 wrote;
"He asserts that the claim is true, so, if
it is unproven, he is lying."

On 2/06/2022 9:37 am, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> On 2/06/2022 10:10 am, Noddy wrote:
>> On 2/06/2022 8:37 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 2/06/2022 8:00 am, alvey wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 07:34:33 +1000, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>
>>>>> **Are you suggesting that you know, without any doubt, that the car
>>>>> has
>>>>> never been worked on previously on that component?
>>>>
>>>> Does this help?
>>>>
>>>> https://parts.toyota.com/a/Toyota_2011_Corolla/69294639__6730963/STARTER/155460-1904.html
>>>>
>>>
>>> **A little.
>>
>> It doesn't really. It's just a generic exploded drawing, and while it
>> identifies the key components of your average starter motor it doesn't
>> relate to this particular one specifically.
>>
>>> Obviously, it is difficult to see any detail, but it appears Toyota
>>> dropped the ball on this issue.
>>
>> Only if you consider deliberate cost cutting to be "ball dropping".
>>
>> Toyota, like many other manufacturers, make very few of their own
>> electrical components and instead rely on 3rd party suppliers. In this
>> case the starter was made by Denso, who have a long history and
>> connection with Toyota. Toyota would be dictating terms to Denso as to
>> exactly what they wanted, including the price point they were prepared
>> to pay per unit. Denso, in response, would be cutting as many corners
>> as they could to meet that criteria. The result is what was seen in
>> the pictures.
>>
>> As to whether Toyota specifically demanded that the starter be
>> supplied without a terminal attached to the field coil lead I can't
>> say one way or the other, but *someone* clearly decided that doing so
>> was necessary to meet the requirements and Toyota certainly approved
>> it for use.
>>
>> This is the actual starter in position with the original "factory"
>> label clearly visible:
>>
>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3TI8
>>
>> As can be seen it is the factory original starter, and it is highly
>> unlikely that it has ever been modified.
>>
>> Hey Kryppy. You have a Corolla, right? Take a photo of yours and post
>> it here so we can see if this is a "one off" or whether Toyota really
>> is that much of a pack of penny pinching pricks that they have to
>> resort to bullshit practices like this in order to make their billions.
>>
>
> you have him blocked so you won't see it dumbass. unless one of your
> minons 'echos' it for you of course.
>
>

Toyota don't make that starter and it's a non-issue.

The relevance deprived fraud just wants to show off that he's pretending
to be a mechanic whilst having a crack at Toyota over a non-issue for a
non-manufacturer specific design.

--
keith on the 7 Oct 2021 wrote;
"He asserts that the claim is true, so, if
it is unproven, he is lying."

On 2/06/2022 12:16 pm, jonz@ nothere.com wrote:
> On Thursday, 2 June 2022 at 11:47:37 UTC+10, Noddy wrote:
>> On 2/06/2022 10:39 am, Daryl wrote:
>>> On 1/6/2022 11:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>> This is what I found when I removed the solenoid:
>>>>
>>>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKG
>>>> The field coil lead attaches directly to the solenoid, but instead of
>>>> having an eyelet or ring terminal soldered or crimped onto the end of
>>>> it like most other starters this one is just wrapped around the stud
>>>> and jammed in place with the nut.
>>>>
>>>> Not even with a washer :)
>>> Rough and cheap as that looks was it actually causing a problem?
>> Not that I'm aware of. According to the owner this is the first time the
>> car's had a starter problem since she bought it new 11 years ago, and
>> from what I can tell the problem that developed isn't related to the
>> lead connection.
>>
>> However that doesn't remove the fact that the connection method itself
>> is pretty pissweak for a high current application. Most people would be
>> reluctant to have their battery leads secured in such a way....
>>> Only starter that I have here not attached to a car is from a 2005
>>> Diahatsu Charade, it has the same "twisted wire" as the Corolla starter.
>>> I know it works because I started the engine to test it before removing
>>> the engine, couldn't use it because it fits an auto and son's Mira is
>>> manual.
>> Is it a Denso starter by any chance? I wonder if that's their policy.
>>> I wonder if it is cheaper to do it that way, twisting the wire into the
>>> right shape would take longer and more effort than crimping a terminal
>>> so maybe there is another reason?
>> I can't imagine it would be any more difficult or time consuming to form
>> the bare wire into the required shape than it would be to crimp on a
>> terminal during the manufacturing process, so the differences in costs
>> relating to manufacturing processes would be negligible. However in
>> using the bare wire on it's own they are removing the terminal from the
>> picture altogether, and the only logical reason I can see why they would
>> possibly want to do that would be to reduce the manufacturing costs.
>>
>> As I said it doesn't seem to have affected the starter operation in any
>> way, but it is *still* a cheap and nasty approach to component
>> manufacture that doesn't seem to do anything other than add to Toyota's
>> bank balance.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Well, *that* got the chooks a'cluckin', and the wankers wankin'.....A little light entertainment never goes astray. :)))
> I think *all* of the usual suspects participated as well. well done!!!!

except I provided a possible explanation of why it was done that way,
wheres you've 'contributed' nothing except your usual noddy butt kissing

--
https://tinyurl.com/Yosemite-Sam

"So some infantile nonsense and running away again
I see. Your standard MO." -Clocky on Keefy

FUCK PUTIN!!

On 2/06/2022 1:26 pm, Clocky wrote:
> On 2/06/2022 6:37 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 2/06/2022 8:00 am, alvey wrote:
>>> On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 07:34:33 +1000, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/06/2022 11:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Just because we all know how much of a knot the Toyota apologists
>>>>> around
>>>>> here like to get their knickers in, just thought I'd share another
>>>>> little "Toyota Tidbit" I discovered yesterday.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was doing a small love job on a 2011 Corolla that belongs to the
>>>>> mother of the lady who washes my dog. It had a problem with the
>>>>> starter
>>>>> that made a horrible noise when you cranked the engine and she'd been
>>>>> quoted some stupid amount of money to have it replaced which she
>>>>> wasn't
>>>>> keep on paying as she was selling the car soon and didn't want to
>>>>> fork
>>>>> out on it unless she had to.
>>>>>
>>>>> So I told her to bring it over and I'll take a peek. Long story short
>>>>> when you cranked the engine it sounded like the starter pinion wasn't
>>>>> retracting quick enough causing either a mesh or overspeed issue,
>>>>> and as
>>>>> the starter on this particular model takes all of 10 minutes to
>>>>> get out
>>>>> I thought I would take it out and have a look.
>>>>>
>>>>> Turns out the starter was full of clutch dust and dry, hardened
>>>>> grease,
>>>>> and after a quick dismantle and clean and some new grease it was put
>>>>> back together and back in the car and it's all working as it should.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, onto the interesting bit.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is the starter here. Nothing special:
>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MK7
>>>>>
>>>>> This is what I found when I removed the solenoid:
>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKG
>>>>>
>>>>> The field coil lead attaches directly to the solenoid, but instead of
>>>>> having an eyelet or ring terminal soldered or crimped onto the end
>>>>> of it
>>>>> like most other starters this one is just wrapped around the stud and
>>>>> jammed in place with the nut.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not even with a washer :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Pretty fucking pisseak I thought, so I wondered how many other
>>>>> starters
>>>>> are like that? I have a few laying around here so I had a look.
>>>>>
>>>>> Couple of Mazda ones here:
>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKP
>>>>>
>>>>> Nope, They both have soldered eyelets.
>>>>>
>>>>> A Mitsubishi one:
>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKU
>>>>>
>>>>> Nope. Crimped eyelet as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Even a dirty old Ford V8 starter:
>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKW
>>>>>
>>>>> Yep. Crimped terminal there too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cool, huh? Looks like Toyota has been actively engaged in making
>>>>> their
>>>>> cars as cheap as they possibly can by saving 4 cents on each
>>>>> Corolla by
>>>>> not using a proper terminal on the starter coil wire.
>>>>>
>>>>> Remind me again why some people think everything they make is
>>>>> fantastic?
>>>>> Oh, what a feeling :)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> **Are you suggesting that you know, without any doubt, that the car
>>>> has
>>>> never been worked on previously on that component?
>>>
>>> Does this help?
>>>
>>> https://parts.toyota.com/a/Toyota_2011_Corolla/69294639__6730963/STARTER/155460-1904.html
>>>
>>
>> **A little. Obviously, it is difficult to see any detail, but it
>> appears Toyota dropped the ball on this issue.
>
> What "issue"?
>
>
>

exactly. why assume it's an inferior way of doing it?

--
https://tinyurl.com/Yosemite-Sam

"So some infantile nonsense and running away again
I see. Your standard MO." -Clocky on Keefy

FUCK PUTIN!!

On 2/06/2022 12:42 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 2/06/2022 12:16 pm, jonz@ nothere.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, 2 June 2022 at 11:47:37 UTC+10, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 2/06/2022 10:39 am, Daryl wrote:
>
<snip drivel>

> There are one or two Dunning-Kruger poster childs here who insist that
> Toyota make high end products which is nothing other than swallowing
> the "unbreakable" bullshit of their marketing department.
>
> The reality is that their stuff is no better than that of anyone else,
> in in some cases it's quite inferior.

have fun explaining why Toyota has a reputation for reliability and
longevity then

--
https://tinyurl.com/Yosemite-Sam

"So some infantile nonsense and running away again
I see. Your standard MO." -Clocky on Keefy

FUCK PUTIN!!