chrisnd @ukrm wrote:

> > > > Of course...  it could be that in many cases 'just stop fucking
> > > > around with it and leave it to settle' is the effect we're
> > > > seeing and the fact the brakes were left 'on' is irrelevant;
> > > > time's been the great healer and raiser of air bubbles to the
> > > > reservoir where they gracefully exit the hydraulic system.
> > >
> > > <ding>  This, I think, is the answer.
> >
> > If that were the case, then just leaving it the fuck alone would
> > cause a spongy brake to firm up; it doesn't.
> >
> Some do

I've never had a spongy brake firm up - bikes or cars.

> Equally, many don't!

All, IMEE.

--
Simon

On Saturday, 15 April 2023 at 10:32:10 UTC+1, sweller wrote:

> > > If that were the case, then just leaving it the fuck alone would
> > > cause a spongy brake to firm up; it doesn't.
> > >
> > Some do
> I've never had a spongy brake firm up - bikes or cars.

The question I was raising was if the 'leave the brakes on' approach
worked because time allowed the bubbles to find their way to
the top of the brake line rather than any 'magic' about the pressure.

I then postulated that maybe just leaving it (and later coming back
to it) would work the same magic.

In my experience when I've had problems bleeding brakes 'just taking
an er... brake...' does sometimes work. I suspect this is because air bubbles
get the chance to rise through the lines.

A possible major difference of brakes on/brakes off during the break
from bleeding is that:
- With brakes off, if the bubbles congregate at the top of the
brake line the first time you pump the brakes when starting bleeding
again then the bubbles may be forced back down the line.
- With the 'leave the brakes on' approach the first thing you'd do is release
the lever, the pressure on the system being released might tend to push
the bubbles up the line and through the master cylinder into the
reservoir. Maybe.

Of course, modern (? cost cutting?) approach of having a single line
to the front calipers with the line going to the right hand caliper then a
solid line going over the top of the wheel to the left hand caliper rather
fucks things up giving an obvious place for air bubbles to congregate
and cause trouble; maybe the pushing fluid up from the left caliper
approach (to flush the bubbles through the line into the right caliper
and the base of the brake line) is the correct approach here.

Which all reminds me once I've finished fucking around with the expensive
switch cluster on the R1200RT that I've got to get around to changing brake
fluids on the R1100RT during the 'summer service season'.

On 15/04/2023 11:27, Stephen Packer wrote:
> On Saturday, 15 April 2023 at 10:32:10 UTC+1, sweller wrote:
>
>>>> If that were the case, then just leaving it the fuck alone would
>>>> cause a spongy brake to firm up; it doesn't.
>>>>
>>> Some do
>> I've never had a spongy brake firm up - bikes or cars.
>
> The question I was raising was if the 'leave the brakes on' approach
> worked because time allowed the bubbles to find their way to
> the top of the brake line rather than any 'magic' about the pressure.
>
> I then postulated that maybe just leaving it (and later coming back
> to it) would work the same magic.
>
> In my experience when I've had problems bleeding brakes 'just taking
> an er... brake...' does sometimes work. I suspect this is because air bubbles
> get the chance to rise through the lines.
>
> A possible major difference of brakes on/brakes off during the break
> from bleeding is that:
> - With brakes off, if the bubbles congregate at the top of the
> brake line the first time you pump the brakes when starting bleeding
> again then the bubbles may be forced back down the line.
> - With the 'leave the brakes on' approach the first thing you'd do is release
> the lever, the pressure on the system being released might tend to push
> the bubbles up the line and through the master cylinder into the
> reservoir. Maybe.

I'm not sure that this is the answer - but I suspect it is something
along these lines.

Chris
--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 07:15:50 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Packer
<stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, 14 April 2023 at 14:06:12 UTC+1, Eddie wrote:
>> On 14/04/2023 13:05, chrisnd @ukrm wrote:
>> > On 14/04/2023 09:42, Stephen Packer wrote:
>> >
>> >> Of course... it could be that in many cases 'just stop fucking around
>> >> with
>> >> it and leave it to settle' is the effect we're seeing and the fact the
>> >> brakes
>> >> were left 'on' is irrelevant; time's been the great healer and raiser
>> >> of air
>> >> bubbles to the reservoir where they gracefully exit the hydraulic
>> >> system.
>> >
>> > <ding> This, I think, is the answer.
>> If that were the case, then just leaving it the fuck alone would cause a
>> spongy brake to firm up; it doesn't.
>
>Damn. Good point.
>
>Maybe in the case that the spongy brake is because of air in the caliper it
>wouldn't 'rise to the reservoir' but in the case of air in the line it would?

Air compresses while the brake fluid doesnt. Its possible that the
bubbles get smaller (when the system is pressurised) and find it
easier to rise up in the fluid.

It definitely works so something must be going on.
All the KTM dirt bikes I owned had tiny amounts of fluid in the system
so *any* air left you with no brakes.
So I park them up with the lever tied up as a matter of course.
When untied; any air in the top pops up into the reservoir.

Newbys who had no brakes in the morning during offroad days were
always amazed how it could be cured by pushing the caliper back with
your knee while holding the front wheel :)
Looked like witchcraft.......
--
Mark Roberts

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 03:27:25 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Packer
<stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, 15 April 2023 at 10:32:10 UTC+1, sweller wrote:
>
>> > > If that were the case, then just leaving it the fuck alone would
>> > > cause a spongy brake to firm up; it doesn't.
>> > >
>> > Some do
>> I've never had a spongy brake firm up - bikes or cars.
>
>The question I was raising was if the 'leave the brakes on' approach
>worked because time allowed the bubbles to find their way to
>the top of the brake line rather than any 'magic' about the pressure.
>
>I then postulated that maybe just leaving it (and later coming back
>to it) would work the same magic.
>
>In my experience when I've had problems bleeding brakes 'just taking
>an er... brake...' does sometimes work. I suspect this is because air bubbles
>get the chance to rise through the lines.

No, because leaving a dirt bike with reasonably good brakes (and
presumably few bubbles) unused for a long time can result in a dirt
bike with very spongy brakes, so something else is going on.

>A possible major difference of brakes on/brakes off during the break
>from bleeding is that:
>- With brakes off, if the bubbles congregate at the top of the
>brake line the first time you pump the brakes when starting bleeding
>again then the bubbles may be forced back down the line.
>- With the 'leave the brakes on' approach the first thing you'd do is release
>the lever, the pressure on the system being released might tend to push
>the bubbles up the line and through the master cylinder into the
>reservoir. Maybe.

That kind of makes sense, but I'm still not convinced that bubbles are
the sole reason for spongy brakes. Certainly the main reason, but...

--

-Pip

On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 08:07:52 +0000, jeremy wrote:

> <font color="#d6d6d6">Just came across this - FB advertising - piqued my
> interest.</font>
> <font color="#d6d6d6"></font>
> <font color="#d6d6d6">Any experience of this kind of thing? Concept
> looks good as both visual and practical deterrent. Obviously fewer
> chances of dropping your bike because you forget you had a disk
> lock...</font>
> <font color="#d6d6d6"></font>
> <font color="#d6d6d6">https://shorturl.at/fgFK6</font>
> <font color="#d6d6d6"></font>
> <font color="#d6d6d6">My gut feeling is that cheap security devices
> probably don't offer a lot in terms of actual security...</font>

They only "work" with ball-ended levers. Any thief encountering one of
these only needs to saw/cut/break the ball off the end of the lever and
the device will then slide off. As levers are aluminium alloy they are
quite soft and easy to cut. Essentially useless except against the most
casual and incompetent thieves!

--
Tony
FJR1300, Aprilia Pegaso 650 ie, BSA Bantams x3, BSA C10L, Norton Electra.

geoffC wrote:
> force the brake pedal down with a plank

A plank ?
Sir needs the correct tool for the job -
https://shop.snapon.com/product/Throttle-Depressors-Brake-Resetting-Gauges/Throttle-Depressor/B370

On 17/04/2023 14:03, Sqirrel99 wrote:
> geoffC wrote:
>> force the brake pedal down with a plank
>
> A plank ?
> Sir needs the correct tool for the job -
> https://shop.snapon.com/product/Throttle-Depressors-Brake-Resetting-Gauges/Throttle-Depressor/B370

To quote Champ, "HFM???"

Something like this would also be useful to truck drivers doing the
early morning walk-round checks on brake lights, incidentally...
:-)

Chris
--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 22:17:31 -0000 (UTC), TMack <qwert@yuiop.com> wrote:

> Essentially useless except against the most casual and incompetent
> thieves!

.... but those *are* the commonest sort.

--
Worst Case

Sqirrel99 wrote:

> geoffC wrote:
> > force the brake pedal down with a plank
>
> A plank ?
> Sir needs the correct tool for the job -
>
https://shop.snapon.com/product/Throttle-Depressors-Brake-Resetting-Gauges/Throttle-Depressor/B370

HFM???
I can get a lot of planks for that money.

--

Geoff
NTV650

On 14/04/2023 13:05, chrisnd @ukrm wrote:
> On 14/04/2023 09:42, Stephen Packer wrote:
>
>> Of course...  it could be that in many cases 'just stop fucking around
>> with
>> it and leave it to settle' is the effect we're seeing and the fact the
>> brakes
>> were left 'on' is irrelevant; time's been the great healer and raiser
>> of air
>> bubbles to the reservoir where they gracefully exit the hydraulic
>> system.
>
> <ding>  This, I think, is the answer.

Rather like razor blades getting sharper if you put them in a pyramid.
Yes they do, but it doesn't actually matter where you put them as long
as you don't use them for a while as the edge becomes deformed by
shaving and will undeform if left alone for a while. Note - as the edge
also deteriorates due to micro-cracking, the blade doesn't stay sharp
for ever, it just recovers a bit.

On 17/04/2023 17:04, "Worst Case"@dizum.com wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 22:17:31 -0000 (UTC), TMack <qwert@yuiop.com> wrote:
>
>> Essentially useless except against the most casual and incompetent
>> thieves!
>
> ... but those *are* the commonest sort.

A case in point - the would-be thief who tried to hotwire my Tiger. He
cut the wires running from the ignition switch to the loom, then
stripped the ends of the wires and tried twisting them together. It was
the wires from the ignition switch he twisted together, not the wires
from the loom.

On 18/04/2023 22:38, Mike Fleming wrote:
> On 17/04/2023 17:04, "Worst Case"@dizum.com wrote:
>> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 22:17:31 -0000 (UTC), TMack <qwert@yuiop.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Essentially useless except against the most casual and incompetent
>>> thieves!
>>
>> ... but those *are* the commonest sort.
>
> A case in point - the would-be thief who tried to hotwire my Tiger. He
> cut the wires running from the ignition switch to the loom, then
> stripped the ends of the wires and tried twisting them together. It was
> the wires from the ignition switch he twisted together, not the wires
> from the loom.

He probably got a nasty shock off the other two and decided to leave
them alone. ;-)

--
Bruce Horrocks
FJR1300AS

On 18/04/2023 23:56, Bruce Horrocks wrote:
> On 18/04/2023 22:38, Mike Fleming wrote:
>> On 17/04/2023 17:04, "Worst Case"@dizum.com wrote:
>>> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 22:17:31 -0000 (UTC), TMack <qwert@yuiop.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Essentially useless except against the most casual and incompetent
>>>> thieves!
>>>
>>> ... but those *are* the commonest sort.
>>
>> A case in point - the would-be thief who tried to hotwire my Tiger. He
>> cut the wires running from the ignition switch to the loom, then
>> stripped the ends of the wires and tried twisting them together. It
>> was the wires from the ignition switch he twisted together, not the
>> wires from the loom.
>
> He probably got a nasty shock off the other two and decided to leave
> them alone. ;-)

There were about five wires and the two he'd selected wouldn't have done
anything even if he'd gone for the loom side of the cut. Presumably
someone who'd seen them do it on telly and thought it was easy.

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 22:38:28 +0100, Mike Fleming <mike@tauzero.co.uk>
wrote:

>>> Essentially useless except against the most casual and incompetent
>>> thieves!
>> ... but those *are* the commonest sort.

>A case in point - the would-be thief who tried to hotwire my Tiger. He
>cut the wires running from the ignition switch to the loom, then
>stripped the ends of the wires and tried twisting them together. It was
>the wires from the ignition switch he twisted together, not the wires
>from the loom.

<face palm>
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On 18/04/2023 19:10, GeoffC wrote:
> Sqirrel99 wrote:
>
>> geoffC wrote:
>>> force the brake pedal down with a plank
>>
>> A plank ?
>> Sir needs the correct tool for the job -
>>
> https://shop.snapon.com/product/Throttle-Depressors-Brake-Resetting-Gauges/Throttle-Depressor/B370
>
> HFM???
> I can get a lot of planks for that money.
>
>

Most of them are on here.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 13/04/2023 23:50 wessie penned these words:
> jeremy <jeremy0505@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:k9qgg0FralrU1@mid.individual.net:
>
>> On 13 Apr 2023 at 10:38:47 BST, "Boots"
>> <news@millhouse-communications.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 13/04/2023 16:07 jeremy penned these words:
>>>> <font color="#d6d6d6">Just came across this - FB advertising -
>>>> piqued my interest.</font>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> It's a wafer lock, about as secure as a cable tie.
>>
>> Not surprising at that price - wondering about the principle though
>> (and see that has been questioned further down in this thread).
>>
>>> Whats' with all the HTML ?
>>
>> I have no idea - occasionally this client ("usenapp") seems to include
>> HTML (not that I see it when I am composing / no text effects - i.e.
>> no clues that there is anything other than plain text). I only see it
>> is present after I have posted the message.
>>
>> Very odd.
>>
>>
>
> just get a shouty disc lock - some have a certificate so they appear on
> the insurance application as a valid device

I've got one of these
URL:https://www.oxfordproducts.com/motorcycle/brands/oxford/security/disc_locks_and_padlocks/oxford_bigboss_alarm_disc_lock_16mm/

Althoug the lock picking lawyer got in easy enough I can only get it open with
the key about 50% of the time without triggering the alarm.

>
--
Ian

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of
the last priest"

On 13/04/2023 09:07, jeremy wrote:

Wotcha

>My gut feeling is that cheap security devices probably
> don't offer a lot in terms of actual security.

They won't stop the bung it in the back of a van brigade, but they
just might stop the wheel it away type of thief.

I've got 'em on my bikes - any security is better than none I suppose.

--
L.W.