On 12/06/2021 21:16, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 14:13:01 +0100, Fredxx <fredxx@nospam.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/06/2021 09:14, Dave Johnson wrote:
>>> On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 00:58:47 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
>>> <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <pr05cg56kof3510t207jqut01uongu00dn@4ax.com>,
>>>> Dave Johnson <davejonno@pcl.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 09 Jun 2021 18:37:22 +0100 (BST), Theo
>>>>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Dave Johnson <davejonno@pcl.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>> I have an American V8 that I bought 2 months ago. It's been as smooth
>>>>>>> as a baby's bum up until today which was the first time I took it out
>>>>>>> on a cool, damp day. It misfired from the very first moment it was
>>>>>>> running and took about 40mins before it cleared up and run properly. I
>>>>>>> can only think of something from the past where I once had issues with
>>>>>>> damp in the ign system: distributor cap and HT leads to the plugs. But
>>>>>>> what's the proper solution? Preferablya permanent one (assuming my
>>>>>>> guess is accurate about the cause but I really cant see what else it
>>>>>>> could be).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does it have individual coil packs, or a classic coil and distributor?
>>>>
>>>>> The latter.
>>>>
>>>>> I recall from somewhere it's possible to check the HT leads by
>>>>> watching the running engine in the dark with the hood up and check for
>>>>> any visible sparks around the leads. Someone else suggested spraying
>>>>> salt water over the leads while it's running AFTER having run long
>>>>> enough to idle smoothly. Not sure what you lot think about those
>>>>> ideas?
>>>>
>>>> I gave you the method of checking them. If using a DVM is outside your pay
>>>> grade just by new ones. ;-)
>>>
>>> yes, but that's not going to show up any insulation breakdown, though.
>>> And you didn't say what values I should expect when I measure for
>>> resistance.
>>> I guess the reverse of the spraying salt water idea would be spraying
>>> with WD40. Use salt water if the air is dry and warm when you test;
>>> use WD40 when it's cold and damp. In the first instance, listen for
>>> misfiring when you spray and in the second, listen for any misfiring
>>> clearing up when you spray.
>>
>> I think you get the impression DR is not impressed with your idea. The
>> idea of spraying salt water over high voltage electrics sound perverse.
>>
>> The stock way to check for a faulty plug or HT lead is to manually
>> remove them one at a time. Ideally using decent dry gloves.
>
> Or no gloves at all. Then if you cop a belt you'll know the
> insulation's duff on that lead/cap.

Are you a masochist? :-)

In article <sa2u9t$72f$2@dont-email.me>, Fredxx <fredxx@nospam.co.uk>
wrote:
> On 12/06/2021 19:19, Tim+ wrote:
> > Dave Johnson <davejonno@pcl.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On Sat, 12 Jun 2021 12:06:58 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
> >> <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >>> In article <g4k7cg1argsh7hfjd8ei3i25sk6ft2er64@4ax.com>, Dave
> >>> Johnson <davejonno@pcl.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>> The salt water spray just seems kind of wrong for obvious reasons.
> >>>> However, it seems to be regularly promoted on US websites. My
> >>>> variation was intended to be a kinder version of it, but
> >>>> unfortunately I can't use it on my left 'ooker cos the HT leads run
> >>>> through grounded metal sheaths for most of their routing and access
> >>>> to get a can of WD40 in there is impossible.
> >>>
> >>> I'd be looking for problems where the leads enter and exit the
> >>> trunking.
> >>>
> >>> I know it was once common to run the HT leads in earthed metal
> >>> trunking, but to me, this is simply asking for trouble. The normal
> >>> way is to keep them a reasonable distance clear of any grounds, by
> >>> the use of plastic spacers, etc. Even more so if the ignition has
> >>> been upgraded to produce a better spark.
> >>
> >> I fully agree. It does seem a daft idea just to keep things neat
> >> under the bonnet and like you say, there will be stresses at the
> >> entry and exit points which over time could lead to insulation
> >> breakdown I would imagine - and right up against grounded metal to
> >> boot.
> >>
> >
> > The modern way seem to be to move to coil packs and do away with the
> > distributor and HT leads. If it was my car I‘d be researching the
> > cost of converting to this.

> On a V8 that can get expensive! There might be limited room above the
> plug too.

With older pushrod engines (like my Rover V8) you can't really use Coil on
Plug because of the heat from the exhaust manifold. But there are
individual smart coils where you use a short plug lead to them, so can be
situated anywhere convenient.

But I'm using wasted spark. One coil per pair of cylinders, and only needs
a crank trigger. Ford EDIS was an early type and still works well as it is
virtually bomb proof. It is pretty well maintenance free. But does need an
ECU to control the advance curve.

--
*I like cats, too. Let's exchange recipes.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article <sa337b$7vt$1@dont-email.me>,
Fredxx <fredxx@nospam.co.uk> wrote:
> I have known someone have a faulty ignition lead on his Rover V8 and not
> know about it for months. He was an artist whose job was to airbrush
> celebrity photos.

Yup. They don't tend to run rough like a four cylinder does when you lose
a cylinder. Just down on power.

--
*I'm already visualizing the duct tape over your mouth

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

I'm wondering if the leads being in trunking makes them very difficult to
do a visual check on. Making them all the more likely to be the source of
the problem, if difficult to change. ;-)

--
*If one synchronized swimmer drowns, do the rest have to drown too?

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 13 Jun 2021 00:31:34 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
<dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

>I'm wondering if the leads being in trunking makes them very difficult to
>do a visual check on. Making them all the more likely to be the source of
>the problem, if difficult to change. ;-)

Asking for trouble on multiple levels. A better idea if neatness was a
consideration was to use those rubber spreaders, then it's simple to
inspect the leads and remove them for easier testing if suspect.

On 10/06/2021 22:29, Dave Johnson wrote:
> On 09 Jun 2021 18:37:22 +0100 (BST), Theo
> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> Dave Johnson <davejonno@pcl.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> I have an American V8 that I bought 2 months ago. It's been as smooth
>>> as a baby's bum up until today which was the first time I took it out
>>> on a cool, damp day. It misfired from the very first moment it was
>>> running and took about 40mins before it cleared up and run properly. I
>>> can only think of something from the past where I once had issues with
>>> damp in the ign system: distributor cap and HT leads to the plugs. But
>>> what's the proper solution? Preferablya permanent one (assuming my
>>> guess is accurate about the cause but I really cant see what else it
>>> could be).
>>
>> Does it have individual coil packs, or a classic coil and distributor?
>
> The latter.
>
> I recall from somewhere it's possible to check the HT leads by
> watching the running engine in the dark with the hood up and check for
> any visible sparks around the leads. Someone else suggested spraying
> salt water over the leads while it's running AFTER having run long
> enough to idle smoothly. Not sure what you lot think about those
> ideas?
>

I can remember cars of a certain age having carbon(??) core HT
suppression leads and after a few years caused all sorts of starting
problems in damp or cold weather. The starting problems were cured with
a simple change to new copper core leads.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

In message <iimf3tF9fdfU1@mid.individual.net>, alan_m
<junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> writes
>On 10/06/2021 22:29, Dave Johnson wrote:
>> On 09 Jun 2021 18:37:22 +0100 (BST), Theo
>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Dave Johnson <davejonno@pcl.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> I have an American V8 that I bought 2 months ago. It's been as smooth
>>>> as a baby's bum up until today which was the first time I took it out
>>>> on a cool, damp day. It misfired from the very first moment it was
>>>> running and took about 40mins before it cleared up and run properly. I
>>>> can only think of something from the past where I once had issues with
>>>> damp in the ign system: distributor cap and HT leads to the plugs. But
>>>> what's the proper solution? Preferablya permanent one (assuming my
>>>> guess is accurate about the cause but I really cant see what else it
>>>> could be).
>>>
>>> Does it have individual coil packs, or a classic coil and distributor?
>> The latter.
>> I recall from somewhere it's possible to check the HT leads by
>> watching the running engine in the dark with the hood up and check for
>> any visible sparks around the leads. Someone else suggested spraying
>> salt water over the leads while it's running AFTER having run long
>> enough to idle smoothly. Not sure what you lot think about those
>> ideas?
>>
>
>I can remember cars of a certain age having carbon(??) core HT
>suppression leads and after a few years caused all sorts of starting
>problems in damp or cold weather. The starting problems were cured with
>a simple change to new copper core leads.
>
IIRC, carbon impregnated HT leads were introduced because they were
better at suppressing radio interference than resistive plug connectors
(or using individual series resistors).

Having a high-resistance (or even open-circuit) HT lead can have
knock-on effects. I recall that in one of my cars the shortest lead went
almost O/C, with the subsequent misfiring problems. As the coil could
not deliver a spark across the plug gap, the spark chose instead to
track between the coil HT terminal and the 'LT' spade terminal. This
carbonised the insulating material, and I still had tracking problems
after I had replaced the faulty lead. As a 'temporary' fix (until I got
a new coil) I sawed a chunk out of the insulation, and filled it with.
The fix became permanent, and I never used the new coil.
--
Ian

In article <iimf3tF9fdfU1@mid.individual.net>,
alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> I can remember cars of a certain age having carbon(??) core HT
> suppression leads and after a few years caused all sorts of starting
> problems in damp or cold weather. The starting problems were cured with
> a simple change to new copper core leads.

Replacing carbon string leads with copper is an absolute no-no. The
ignition system is designed to work with a total resistance between coil
and plug of about 30,000 ohms. And that's before you blot out surrounding
TV etc reception with the interference it would generate. And on a modern
car, that interference can also zap the engine management.

Suppressor leads using conductive plastic rather than carbon string have
been around for many a year now, and have a very long life.

--
*Why were the Indians here first? They had reservations.*

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 09/06/2021 16:30, Dave Johnson wrote:
> Hi,
> I have an American V8 that I bought 2 months ago. It's been as smooth
> as a baby's bum up until today which was the first time I took it out
> on a cool, damp day. It misfired from the very first moment it was
> running and took about 40mins before it cleared up and run properly. I
> can only think of something from the past where I once had issues with
> damp in the ign system: distributor cap and HT leads to the plugs. But
> what's the proper solution? Preferablya permanent one (assuming my
> guess is accurate about the cause but I really cant see what else it
> could be).
> cheers,
> Dave,
> Dagenham UK.
>

I am assuming that theres a capacitor inside the distributor, and that
its been checked, although I can find no mention of it anywhere in this
thread.

AT

--
random signature text inserted here

On 24/07/2021 07:41, Abandoned_Trolley wrote:
> On 09/06/2021 16:30, Dave Johnson wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I have an American V8 that I bought 2 months ago. It's been as smooth
>> as a baby's bum up until today which was the first time I took it out
>> on a cool, damp day. It misfired from the very first moment it was
>> running and took about 40mins before it cleared up and run properly. I
>> can only think of something from the past where I once had issues with
>> damp in the ign system: distributor cap and HT leads to the plugs. But
>> what's the proper solution? Preferablya  permanent one (assuming my
>> guess is accurate about the cause but I really cant see what else it
>> could be).
>> cheers,
>> Dave,
>> Dagenham UK.
>>
>
> I am assuming that theres a capacitor inside the distributor, and that
> its been checked, although I can find no mention of it anywhere in this
> thread.
>
> AT
>
I presume that no-one has fiddled with the ignition wiring recently?
About 30 years I had a car which was factory fitted with a 9v coil, fed
through a ballast resistor. When the starter motor was operated, the
resistor was by-passed to give the ignition a bit more oomph.

I had some work done by a garage who reconnected the wires in such a way
that the resistor was always out of circuit. With the full 12+ volts
going to the coil all the time, the engine misfired profusely - and
wrote off the coil *and* the points in short order.

That couldn't be the OP's problem could it?
--
Cheers,
Roger

On 24/07/2021 20:03, Roger Mills wrote:
> On 24/07/2021 07:41, Abandoned_Trolley wrote:
>> On 09/06/2021 16:30, Dave Johnson wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> I have an American V8 that I bought 2 months ago. It's been as smooth
>>> as a baby's bum up until today which was the first time I took it out
>>> on a cool, damp day. It misfired from the very first moment it was
>>> running and took about 40mins before it cleared up and run properly. I
>>> can only think of something from the past where I once had issues with
>>> damp in the ign system: distributor cap and HT leads to the plugs. But
>>> what's the proper solution? Preferablya  permanent one (assuming my
>>> guess is accurate about the cause but I really cant see what else it
>>> could be).
>>> cheers,
>>> Dave,
>>> Dagenham UK.
>>>
>>
>> I am assuming that theres a capacitor inside the distributor, and that
>> its been checked, although I can find no mention of it anywhere in
>> this thread.
>>
>> AT
>>
> I presume that no-one has fiddled with the ignition wiring recently?
> About 30 years I had a car which was factory fitted with a 9v coil, fed
> through a ballast resistor. When the starter motor was operated, the
> resistor was by-passed to give the ignition a bit more oomph.
>
> I had some work done by a garage who reconnected the wires in such a way
> that the resistor was always out of circuit. With the full 12+ volts
> going to the coil all the time, the engine misfired profusely - and
> wrote off the coil *and* the points in short order.
>
> That couldn't be the OP's problem could it?

In my youth you sometimes found 6 volt coils with a ballast. But there
were (just about) 6 volt cars still around in those days, and I never
owned a 12 volt motorcycle.

On 24/07/2021 20:03, Roger Mills wrote:
> On 24/07/2021 07:41, Abandoned_Trolley wrote:
>> On 09/06/2021 16:30, Dave Johnson wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> I have an American V8 that I bought 2 months ago. It's been as smooth
>>> as a baby's bum up until today which was the first time I took it out
>>> on a cool, damp day. It misfired from the very first moment it was
>>> running and took about 40mins before it cleared up and run properly. I
>>> can only think of something from the past where I once had issues with
>>> damp in the ign system: distributor cap and HT leads to the plugs. But
>>> what's the proper solution? Preferablya  permanent one (assuming my
>>> guess is accurate about the cause but I really cant see what else it
>>> could be).
>>> cheers,
>>> Dave,
>>> Dagenham UK.
>>>
>>
>> I am assuming that theres a capacitor inside the distributor, and that
>> its been checked, although I can find no mention of it anywhere in
>> this thread.
>>
>> AT
>>
> I presume that no-one has fiddled with the ignition wiring recently?
> About 30 years I had a car which was factory fitted with a 9v coil, fed
> through a ballast resistor. When the starter motor was operated, the
> resistor was by-passed to give the ignition a bit more oomph.

Fords used this technique. The spark was marginal when cold and a
consequence was that the engine died as soon as you let go of the starter.

> I had some work done by a garage who reconnected the wires in such a way
> that the resistor was always out of circuit. With the full 12+ volts
> going to the coil all the time, the engine misfired profusely - and
> wrote off the coil *and* the points in short order.
>
> That couldn't be the OP's problem could it?

The OP seems to have abandoned this thread so we'll never know.

In article <ZMidneFQxbcqUGD9nZ2dnUU78SnNnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>,
newshound <newshound@stevejqr.plus.com> wrote:
> On 24/07/2021 20:03, Roger Mills wrote:
> > On 24/07/2021 07:41, Abandoned_Trolley wrote:
> >> On 09/06/2021 16:30, Dave Johnson wrote:
> >>> Hi,
> >>> I have an American V8 that I bought 2 months ago. It's been as smooth
> >>> as a baby's bum up until today which was the first time I took it out
> >>> on a cool, damp day. It misfired from the very first moment it was
> >>> running and took about 40mins before it cleared up and run properly. I
> >>> can only think of something from the past where I once had issues with
> >>> damp in the ign system: distributor cap and HT leads to the plugs. But
> >>> what's the proper solution? Preferablya permanent one (assuming my
> >>> guess is accurate about the cause but I really cant see what else it
> >>> could be).
> >>> cheers,
> >>> Dave,
> >>> Dagenham UK.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I am assuming that theres a capacitor inside the distributor, and that
> >> its been checked, although I can find no mention of it anywhere in
> >> this thread.
> >>
> >> AT
> >>
> > I presume that no-one has fiddled with the ignition wiring recently?
> > About 30 years I had a car which was factory fitted with a 9v coil, fed
> > through a ballast resistor. When the starter motor was operated, the
> > resistor was by-passed to give the ignition a bit more oomph.
> >
> > I had some work done by a garage who reconnected the wires in such a way
> > that the resistor was always out of circuit. With the full 12+ volts
> > going to the coil all the time, the engine misfired profusely - and
> > wrote off the coil *and* the points in short order.
> >
> > That couldn't be the OP's problem could it?

> In my youth you sometimes found 6 volt coils with a ballast. But there
> were (just about) 6 volt cars still around in those days, and I never
> owned a 12 volt motorcycle.

Think most recent ones are 9v. On the principle that if the battery volts
dropped below 9, it is probably too clapped to turn the starter.

--
*Hard work pays off in the future. Laziness pays off now *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 27/07/2021 00:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> Think most recent ones are 9v. On the principle that if the battery volts
> dropped below 9, it is probably too clapped to turn the starter.

It's more that the internal resistance of the battery when the starter
is pulling a few hundered amps from the coil to around 9V. V8 landrovers
had such a dropper but I though 6V coils.

In article <imdua1F83d0U1@mid.individual.net>,
AJH <news@loampitsfarm.co.uk> wrote:
> On 27/07/2021 00:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> > Think most recent ones are 9v. On the principle that if the battery volts
> > dropped below 9, it is probably too clapped to turn the starter.

> It's more that the internal resistance of the battery when the starter
> is pulling a few hundered amps from the coil to around 9V. V8 landrovers
> had such a dropper but I though 6V coils.

Bit wasteful having to drop the voltage more than needed using a power
resistor?

It could be early cold start systems use a 6v coil because they were a
standard item. But once common makes sense to use one designed for the job.

--
*Can fat people go skinny-dipping?

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.