"An Italian coachbuilder is celebrating the 60th anniversary of the
original Alfa Romeo Giulia Tipo 105 with this meticulous 'retromod'."

https://www.drive.com.au/news/alfa-romeo-giulia-restomod-honours-tipo-105/

Italian cars in general, and Alfa in particular, are famous for their
luscious and sensuous curves. This thing looks like a Brutalist designers'
version of a Nissan Skyline.

alvey

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On 17/07/2022 6:46 am, alvey wrote:
>
> "An Italian coachbuilder is celebrating the 60th anniversary of the
> original Alfa Romeo Giulia Tipo 105 with this meticulous 'retromod'."
>
> https://www.drive.com.au/news/alfa-romeo-giulia-restomod-honours-tipo-105/
>
> Italian cars in general, and Alfa in particular, are famous for their
> luscious and sensuous curves. This thing looks like a Brutalist designers'
> version of a Nissan Skyline.
>
>
> alvey
>

**Agreed. That monstrosity would never have made it out through the Alfa
gates. In fact, the stylist would have been sacked for showing such a
lack of style.

A client turned up a couple of weeks ago in an Alfa Spyder. He has owned
it since new and it looked gorgeous.

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On 17/07/2022 8:22 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:

> **Agreed. That monstrosity would never have made it out through the Alfa
> gates. In fact, the stylist would have been sacked for showing such a
> lack of style.

Very few Alfa's manage to make it through the gates unless they're
pushed, as their mechanicals are usually not reliable enough to go that
far without failing :)

> A client turned up a couple of weeks ago in an Alfa Spyder. He has owned
> it since new and it looked gorgeous.

In your opinion. I think the early original ones look like someone put a
really bad body kit on an MGB. Luckily they're so hideously unreliable
that few people have ever seen one in the flesh.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 17/7/2022 8:22 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 17/07/2022 6:46 am, alvey wrote:
>>
>> "An Italian coachbuilder is celebrating the 60th anniversary of the
>> original Alfa Romeo Giulia Tipo 105 with this meticulous 'retromod'."
>>
>> https://www.drive.com.au/news/alfa-romeo-giulia-restomod-honours-tipo-105/
>>
>>
>> Italian cars in general, and Alfa in particular, are famous for their
>> luscious and sensuous curves. This thing looks like a Brutalist
>> designers'
>> version of a Nissan Skyline.
>>
>>
>> alvey
>>
>
> **Agreed. That monstrosity would never have made it out through the Alfa
> gates. In fact, the stylist would have been sacked for showing such a
> lack of style.
>
> A client turned up a couple of weeks ago in an Alfa Spyder. He has owned
> it since new and it looked gorgeous.
>
They certainly looked good but shame about the rust and well below
average reliability.

--
Daryl

On 17/07/2022 6:46 am, alvey wrote:
> "An Italian coachbuilder is celebrating the 60th anniversary of the
> original Alfa Romeo Giulia Tipo 105 with this meticulous 'retromod'."
>
> https://www.drive.com.au/news/alfa-romeo-giulia-restomod-honours-tipo-105/
>
> Italian cars in general, and Alfa in particular, are famous for their
> luscious and sensuous curves. This thing looks like a Brutalist designers'
> version of a Nissan Skyline.
>

Yikes! looks like someone started making a holden or a ford then changed
their mind

> alvey
>

--
FUCK PUTIN!!!

On 17/07/2022 8:57 am, Daryl wrote:
> On 17/7/2022 8:22 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:

>> A client turned up a couple of weeks ago in an Alfa Spyder. He has
>> owned it since new and it looked gorgeous.
>>
> They certainly looked good but shame about the rust and well below
> average reliability.

"Below average" is putting it very gently. I think it would be closer to
the truth to call their reliability appalling at best, and in fact I'd
think they'd rate very highly as one of the most unreliable marques ever
sold anywhere in the world.

Well, at least since Leyland went bust.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 17/7/2022 9:52 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 17/07/2022 8:57 am, Daryl wrote:
>> On 17/7/2022 8:22 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
>>> A client turned up a couple of weeks ago in an Alfa Spyder. He has
>>> owned it since new and it looked gorgeous.
>>>
>> They certainly looked good but shame about the rust and well below
>> average reliability.
>
> "Below average" is putting it very gently.

LOL.

I think it would be closer to
> the truth to call their reliability appalling at best, and in fact I'd
> think they'd rate very highly as one of the most unreliable marques ever
> sold anywhere in the world.

Way back when I was working as a courier we had a customer who was an
Alfa parts distributor so we delivered Alfa parts to workshops, I saw a
lot of Alfas and the one thing that I noticed was the rust, one in
particular was only 2yrs old had a rust hole in the door big enough to
put your hand through, the owner must have been very pissed off.
>
> Well, at least since Leyland went bust.
>

They did and did us all a favour.

--
Daryl

On 17/07/2022 12:20 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 17/7/2022 9:52 am, Noddy wrote:

>  I think it would be closer to
>> the truth to call their reliability appalling at best, and in fact I'd
>> think they'd rate very highly as one of the most unreliable marques
>> ever sold anywhere in the world.
>
> Way back when I was working as a courier we had a customer who was an
> Alfa parts distributor so we delivered Alfa parts to workshops, I saw a
> lot of Alfas and the one thing that I noticed was the rust, one in
> particular was only 2yrs old had a rust hole in the door big enough to
> put your hand through, the owner must have been very pissed off.

They've always been *horrid* cars, with reliability and build quality
issues that make Chinese built vehicles look positively stellar. Why
anyone would *want* one I'm fucked if I know.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 17/7/2022 1:06 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 17/07/2022 12:20 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 17/7/2022 9:52 am, Noddy wrote:
>
>>   I think it would be closer to
>>> the truth to call their reliability appalling at best, and in fact
>>> I'd think they'd rate very highly as one of the most unreliable
>>> marques ever sold anywhere in the world.
>>
>> Way back when I was working as a courier we had a customer who was an
>> Alfa parts distributor so we delivered Alfa parts to workshops, I saw
>> a lot of Alfas and the one thing that I noticed was the rust, one in
>> particular was only 2yrs old had a rust hole in the door big enough to
>> put your hand through, the owner must have been very pissed off.
>
> They've always been *horrid* cars, with reliability and build quality
> issues that make Chinese built vehicles look positively stellar. Why
> anyone would *want* one I'm fucked if I know.
>
>
I can't recall ever driving one but by all accounts they are good to
drive, friends used to have a 1974 Fiat 124, great car to drive and very
well equipped for the time but it needed a huge amount of work to keep
it on the road, they ended up selling it to a wrecker for next to nothing.

--
Daryl

On 17/07/2022 8:55 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 17/07/2022 8:22 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
>> **Agreed. That monstrosity would never have made it out through the
>> Alfa gates. In fact, the stylist would have been sacked for showing
>> such a lack of style.
>
> Very few Alfa's manage to make it through the gates unless they're
> pushed, as their mechanicals are usually not reliable enough to go that
> far without failing :)

**Sure. Fiat and Alfa are legend for unreliability and rust. Not the
point. Alvey mentioned their styling. I responded accordingly.

FWIW: One of my clients owns an Alfa. Dunno the model. It's a V6 and
about 10 years old. She has never had a problem with the car. So,
that's one.

>
>> A client turned up a couple of weeks ago in an Alfa Spyder. He has
>> owned it since new and it looked gorgeous.
>
> In your opinion.

**Not only my opinion. That said, Alfa really nailed style with the
GTV2000. Still a very attractive car.

I think the early original ones look like someone put a
> really bad body kit on an MGB.

**MGB = boring. Alfa Spyder = nice.

Luckily they're so hideously unreliable
> that few people have ever seen one in the flesh.

**Not the issue.

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On 17/07/2022 1:44 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 17/07/2022 8:55 am, Noddy wrote:
>
>> Very few Alfa's manage to make it through the gates unless they're
>> pushed, as their mechanicals are usually not reliable enough to go
>> that far without failing :)
>
> **Sure. Fiat and Alfa are legend for unreliability and rust. Not the
> point. Alvey mentioned their styling. I responded accordingly.

In your highly subjective opinion of course. I've always thought the
Spider was a remarkably boring looking car as far as little convertible
sports cars go, and every time I see one it looks to me like it started
life as a prototype that Toyota were fucking around with but eventually
abandoned because it just got too ugly.

> FWIW: One of my clients owns an Alfa. Dunno the model. It's a V6 and
> about 10 years old. She has never had a problem  with the car. So,
> that's one.
>
>>
>>> A client turned up a couple of weeks ago in an Alfa Spyder. He has
>>> owned it since new and it looked gorgeous.
>>
>> In your opinion.
>
> **Not only my opinion.

No doubt.

> That said, Alfa really nailed style with the
> GTV2000. Still a very attractive car.

Again, in your opinion. I can't remember the last time I saw anything
with an "Alfa" badge on it that I would consider to be an attractive
vehicle. Different, certainly, but attractive, no.

>  I think the early original ones look like someone put a
>> really bad body kit on an MGB.
>
> **MGB = boring. Alfa Spyder = nice.

What makes the distinction between them? :)

>  Luckily they're so hideously unreliable
>> that few people have ever seen one in the flesh.
>
> **Not the issue.

The "issue" as far as I can tell, is about what *you* think looks
"gorgeous". You're entitled to your view.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 17/07/2022 1:38 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 17/7/2022 1:06 pm, Noddy wrote:

>>> Way back when I was working as a courier we had a customer who was an
>>> Alfa parts distributor so we delivered Alfa parts to workshops, I saw
>>> a lot of Alfas and the one thing that I noticed was the rust, one in
>>> particular was only 2yrs old had a rust hole in the door big enough
>>> to put your hand through, the owner must have been very pissed off.
>>
>> They've always been *horrid* cars, with reliability and build quality
>> issues that make Chinese built vehicles look positively stellar. Why
>> anyone would *want* one I'm fucked if I know.
>>
>>
> I can't recall ever driving one but by all accounts they are good to
> drive,

I'm sure _some_ of them can be, but they'd be few and far between :)

Next door neighbour before I moved here bought a 147 about 6 months or
so before I moved, and apart from it being in the dealership every other
week for some fix or another it was the most lacklustre performing
"sports" car I'd ever driven in my life. I'm not kidding, a Camry
Sportivo would hand the thing it's arse, and his previous car which was
a Telstar TX5 Turbo would have given it a good run for it's money.

> friends used to have a 1974 Fiat 124, great car to drive and very
> well equipped for the time but it needed a huge amount of work to keep
> it on the road, they ended up selling it to a wrecker for next to nothing.

I rebuilt the engine on a little 124 for a guy years ago. They were an
interesting little car. Fairly light weight, 4 wheel disc brakes, decent
seats, but somewhat nose heavy and a bit of a challenge at speed.
Biggest issue with them was the engine which was an absolute cunt of a
thing. They would cough and splutter all the time because the
carburettor came jetted from the factory wrong, they would ping their
heads off, and they would usually run on like the bejesus with the
things usually having to be stalled with the clutch and brake to stop
the bastard things pig rooting themselves to death.

I remember talking to a bloke at Costanzo's in Fitroy about it once when
I was chasing parts for it and he chuckled to himself in telling me that
the only way you could ever do anything about it was to retard the inlet
camshaft by 4 degrees, and in fact they made a specially manufactured
sprocket with the keyway cut in a different position for exactly that
purpose. I mentioned it to the owner and he opted to have one fitted,
and it cured the problem. Killed a fair bit of power as well, but at
least it never ran on anymore :)

Last I heard the owner got sick of playing "Italian Roulette", which is
the routine you go through every morning where you get in the car and
crank the engine hoping like fuck it will be your lucky day and the
thing will start and drive properly, and traded it on some "sport"
version of a Mitsubishi Lancer.

He never looked back after that.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 13:44:10 +1000, Trevor Wilson wrote:

> On 17/07/2022 8:55 am, Noddy wrote:
>> On 17/07/2022 8:22 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>
>>> **Agreed. That monstrosity would never have made it out through the
>>> Alfa gates. In fact, the stylist would have been sacked for showing
>>> such a lack of style.
>>
>> Very few Alfa's manage to make it through the gates unless they're
>> pushed, as their mechanicals are usually not reliable enough to go that
>> far without failing :)
>
> **Sure. Fiat and Alfa are legend for unreliability and rust. Not the
> point. Alvey mentioned their styling. I responded accordingly.

Trevor, it's your life, but there is little point arguing 'style and class'
with a normal person and absolutely none at all with a bogan whose grousest
car is a coffin with wheels, a Failaine, whose daily drive is a clapped out
10yo garden centre workhorse and who thinks that resurrecting a 70yr
Redneckmobile is cool.

alvey

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On 17/7/2022 2:19 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 17/07/2022 1:38 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 17/7/2022 1:06 pm, Noddy wrote:
>
>>>> Way back when I was working as a courier we had a customer who was
>>>> an Alfa parts distributor so we delivered Alfa parts to workshops, I
>>>> saw a lot of Alfas and the one thing that I noticed was the rust,
>>>> one in particular was only 2yrs old had a rust hole in the door big
>>>> enough to put your hand through, the owner must have been very
>>>> pissed off.
>>>
>>> They've always been *horrid* cars, with reliability and build quality
>>> issues that make Chinese built vehicles look positively stellar. Why
>>> anyone would *want* one I'm fucked if I know.
>>>
>>>
>> I can't recall ever driving one but by all accounts they are good to
>> drive,
>
> I'm sure _some_ of them can be, but they'd be few and far between :)
>
> Next door neighbour before I moved here bought a 147 about 6 months or
> so before I moved, and apart from it being in the dealership every other
> week for some fix or another it was the most lacklustre performing
> "sports" car I'd ever driven in my life. I'm not kidding, a Camry
> Sportivo would hand the thing it's arse, and his previous car which was
> a Telstar TX5 Turbo would have given it a good run for it's money.

Son was given a 147 to wreck, car wasn't in bad condition and apparently
it drove ok but it had a bad alternator and believe it or not the labor
cost to replace it was more than the car was worth.
When I was told that my first thought was that it was BS so I had a look
and couldn't even find the alternator, its buried behind the EW engine
somewhere and the easiest was to access it is to drop the subframe then
move the engine forward, alternatively you have to remove the inlet and
lots of other bits, either way the owner opted to junk the car instead
of spending the money to get it fixed.
>
>> friends used to have a 1974 Fiat 124, great car to drive and very well
>> equipped for the time but it needed a huge amount of work to keep it
>> on the road, they ended up selling it to a wrecker for next to nothing.
>
> I rebuilt the engine on a little 124 for a guy years ago. They were an
> interesting little car. Fairly light weight, 4 wheel disc brakes, decent
> seats, but somewhat nose heavy and a bit of a challenge at speed.
> Biggest issue with them was the engine which was an absolute cunt of a
> thing. They would cough and splutter all the time because the
> carburettor came jetted from the factory wrong, they would ping their
> heads off, and they would usually run on like the bejesus with the
> things usually having to be stalled with the clutch and brake to stop
> the bastard things pig rooting themselves to death.
>
> I remember talking to a bloke at Costanzo's in Fitroy about it once when
> I was chasing parts for it and he chuckled to himself in telling me that
> the only way you could ever do anything about it was to retard the inlet
> camshaft by 4 degrees, and in fact they made a specially manufactured
> sprocket with the keyway cut in a different position for exactly that
> purpose. I mentioned it to the owner and he opted to have one fitted,
> and it cured the problem. Killed a fair bit of power as well, but at
> least it never ran on anymore :)
>
> Last I heard the owner got sick of playing "Italian Roulette", which is
> the routine you go through every morning where you get in the car and
> crank the engine hoping like fuck it will be your lucky day and the
> thing will start and drive properly, and traded it on some "sport"
> version of a Mitsubishi Lancer.
>
> He never looked back after that.
>

Long time ago but I don't recall it having any engine problems, all the
suspension bushings were very worn so it was all over the road, window
winders were cable operated and cables were badly frayed, even if we
could have gotten new ones it looked like a real prick of a job to
replace them, I think the handbrake cable also needed replacing.
None of the above was impossible to fix but at the time it just didn't
seem worth the time and effort, those 124 coupes in good condition can
be worth a bit of money now but they were almost worthless 30yrs ago.

--
Daryl

On 7/17/2022 12:20 PM, Daryl wrote:
> On 17/7/2022 9:52 am, Noddy wrote:
>> On 17/07/2022 8:57 am, Daryl wrote:
>>> On 17/7/2022 8:22 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>
>>>> A client turned up a couple of weeks ago in an Alfa Spyder. He has
>>>> owned it since new and it looked gorgeous.
>>>>
>>> They certainly looked good but shame about the rust and well below
>>> average reliability.
>>
>> "Below average" is putting it very gently.
>
> LOL.
>
>  I think it would be closer to
>> the truth to call their reliability appalling at best, and in fact I'd
>> think they'd rate very highly as one of the most unreliable marques
>> ever sold anywhere in the world.
>
> Way back when I was working as a courier we had a customer who was an
> Alfa parts distributor so we delivered Alfa parts to workshops, I saw a
> lot of Alfas and the one thing that I noticed was the rust, one in
> particular was only 2yrs old had a rust hole in the door big enough to
> put your hand through, the owner must have been very pissed off.
>>
>> Well, at least since Leyland went bust.
>>
>
> They did and did us all a favour.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Blasphemy...;)
>
>

On 17/07/2022 5:31 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 17/7/2022 2:19 pm, Noddy wrote:

>> Next door neighbour before I moved here bought a 147 about 6 months or
>> so before I moved, and apart from it being in the dealership every
>> other week for some fix or another it was the most lacklustre
>> performing "sports" car I'd ever driven in my life. I'm not kidding, a
>> Camry Sportivo would hand the thing it's arse, and his previous car
>> which was a Telstar TX5 Turbo would have given it a good run for it's
>> money.
>
> Son was given a 147 to wreck, car wasn't in bad condition and apparently
> it drove ok but it had a bad alternator and believe it or not the labor
> cost to replace it was more than the car was worth.

I'm not at all surprised.

> When I was told that my first thought was that it was BS so I had a look
> and couldn't even find the alternator, its buried behind the EW engine
> somewhere and the easiest was to access it is to drop the subframe then
> move the engine forward, alternatively you have to remove the inlet and
> lots of other bits, either way the owner opted to junk the car instead
> of spending the money to get it fixed.

Clearly the car was a wonderful driving experience :)

I can't remember if the neighbour's car was a 4 or 6 cylinder variant,
but I remember him showing me under the bonnet when he first bought it
and my immediate thought was that Alfa must have Ray Charles in charge
of their design team as it looked like the most fucked up arrangement
you could eve3r imagine.

Clearly the dealership service department thought so too, as they seemed
to have it more than he did and they were never able to fix it.

>> Last I heard the owner got sick of playing "Italian Roulette", which
>> is the routine you go through every morning where you get in the car
>> and crank the engine hoping like fuck it will be your lucky day and
>> the thing will start and drive properly, and traded it on some "sport"
>> version of a Mitsubishi Lancer.
>>
>> He never looked back after that.
>>
>
> Long time ago but I don't recall it having any engine problems, all the
> suspension bushings were very worn so it was all over the road, window
> winders were cable operated and cables were badly frayed, even if we
> could have gotten new ones it looked like a real prick of a job to
> replace them, I think the handbrake cable also needed replacing.
> None of the above was impossible to fix but at the time it just didn't
> seem worth the time and effort, those 124 coupes in good condition can
> be worth a bit of money now but they were almost worthless 30yrs ago.

Just reminded me of another problem the thing had, which was with the
rear brakes.

As I said the things were a bit nose heavy and would dive under hard
braking, and Fiat was obviously aware of that so they fitted a shut-off
valve to the rear brakes that was operated by mechanical link to the
rear suspension. The idea being that in the event that the nose dived
heavily under brakes, the upward movement of the rear suspension would
close the valve and shut off hydraulic pressure to the rear callipers
which in turn would prevent the rear brakes from locking up as the
weight transferred to the front.

It was a stupid idea, and the best part about it was that it didn't work :)

In fact it worked in reverse in that by the time the car nose dived hard
enough to operate the valve the rear brakes were already heavily loaded
and all the valve managed to do was to close *after* the event and keep
the rear brakes fully pressurised and allow the wheels to lock under the
reduced weight bias. You had to actually get off the brakes to get the
rear wheels rolling again, and then hope you had enough road left to
pedal your way out of trouble without doing it all over again. Not so
bad on a straight dry road, but dicey in the wet :)

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 17/7/2022 6:21 pm, JONZ wrote:
> On 7/17/2022 12:20 PM, Daryl wrote:
>> On 17/7/2022 9:52 am, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 17/07/2022 8:57 am, Daryl wrote:
>>>> On 17/7/2022 8:22 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>
>>>>> A client turned up a couple of weeks ago in an Alfa Spyder. He has
>>>>> owned it since new and it looked gorgeous.
>>>>>
>>>> They certainly looked good but shame about the rust and well below
>>>> average reliability.
>>>
>>> "Below average" is putting it very gently.
>>
>> LOL.
>>
>>   I think it would be closer to
>>> the truth to call their reliability appalling at best, and in fact
>>> I'd think they'd rate very highly as one of the most unreliable
>>> marques ever sold anywhere in the world.
>>
>> Way back when I was working as a courier we had a customer who was an
>> Alfa parts distributor so we delivered Alfa parts to workshops, I saw
>> a lot of Alfas and the one thing that I noticed was the rust, one in
>> particular was only 2yrs old had a rust hole in the door big enough to
>> put your hand through, the owner must have been very pissed off.
>>>
>>> Well, at least since Leyland went bust.
>>>
>>
>> They did and did us all a favour.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  Blasphemy...;)
>>
>>
>
Not really, I don't mind British cars pre Leyland, we had 2, an Austin
Healey Sprite and an Austin 1800 but Leyland came along and pretty much
fucked up almost everything they did effectively wiping out most of the
volume British car industry.
Wife's brother has an "L" model MG Midget and later a Mini Clubman,
AFAIK both made in Australia and they were OK but mostly because they
were the original earlier designs with just a few minor changes so not
much to stuff up.
The 1800 was a pretty successful design but when Leyland updated it with
the Tasman and Kimberly models it all went to shit, the later cars were
garbage compared to the originals.

--
Daryl

On 17/7/2022 9:07 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 17/07/2022 5:31 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 17/7/2022 2:19 pm, Noddy wrote:
>
>>> Next door neighbour before I moved here bought a 147 about 6 months
>>> or so before I moved, and apart from it being in the dealership every
>>> other week for some fix or another it was the most lacklustre
>>> performing "sports" car I'd ever driven in my life. I'm not kidding,
>>> a Camry Sportivo would hand the thing it's arse, and his previous car
>>> which was a Telstar TX5 Turbo would have given it a good run for it's
>>> money.
>>
>> Son was given a 147 to wreck, car wasn't in bad condition and
>> apparently it drove ok but it had a bad alternator and believe it or
>> not the labor cost to replace it was more than the car was worth.
>
> I'm not at all surprised.
>
>> When I was told that my first thought was that it was BS so I had a
>> look and couldn't even find the alternator, its buried behind the EW
>> engine somewhere and the easiest was to access it is to drop the
>> subframe then move the engine forward, alternatively you have to
>> remove the inlet and lots of other bits, either way the owner opted to
>> junk the car instead of spending the money to get it fixed.
>
> Clearly the car was a wonderful driving experience :)
>
> I can't remember if the neighbour's car was a 4 or 6 cylinder variant,
> but I remember him showing me under the bonnet when he first bought it
> and my immediate thought was that Alfa must have Ray Charles in charge
> of their design team as it looked like the most fucked up arrangement
> you could eve3r imagine.
>

The one I looked at was a 4cyl, at first glance it looked conventional
enough but for some inexplicable reason they buried the alternator in
place where it was very difficult to access.

> Clearly the dealership service department thought so too, as they seemed
> to have it more than he did and they were never able to fix it.
>
>>> Last I heard the owner got sick of playing "Italian Roulette", which
>>> is the routine you go through every morning where you get in the car
>>> and crank the engine hoping like fuck it will be your lucky day and
>>> the thing will start and drive properly, and traded it on some
>>> "sport" version of a Mitsubishi Lancer.
>>>
>>> He never looked back after that.
>>>
>>
>> Long time ago but I don't recall it having any engine problems, all
>> the suspension bushings were very worn so it was all over the road,
>> window winders were cable operated and cables were badly frayed, even
>> if we could have gotten new ones it looked like a real prick of a job
>> to replace them, I think the handbrake cable also needed replacing.
>> None of the above was impossible to fix but at the time it just didn't
>> seem worth the time and effort, those 124 coupes in good condition can
>> be worth a bit of money now but they were almost worthless 30yrs ago.
>
> Just reminded me of another problem the thing had, which was with the
> rear brakes.
>
> As I said the things were a bit nose heavy and would dive under hard
> braking, and Fiat was obviously aware of that so they fitted a shut-off
> valve to the rear brakes that was operated by mechanical link to the
> rear suspension. The idea being that in the event that the nose dived
> heavily under brakes, the upward movement of the rear suspension would
> close the valve and shut off hydraulic pressure to the rear callipers
> which in turn would prevent the rear brakes from locking up as the
> weight transferred to the front.
>
> It was a stupid idea, and the best part about it was that it didn't work :)
>
> In fact it worked in reverse in that by the time the car nose dived hard
> enough to operate the valve the rear brakes were already heavily loaded
> and all the valve managed to do was to close *after* the event and keep
> the rear brakes fully pressurised and allow the wheels to lock under the
> reduced weight bias. You had to actually get off the brakes to get the
> rear wheels rolling again, and then hope you had enough road left to
> pedal your way out of trouble without doing it all over again. Not so
> bad on a straight dry road, but dicey in the wet :)
>
>
Never drove one long enough to encounter any problems like that but
sounds like it wouldn't have been all that difficult to sort out, just
remove the linkage and if you still had a rear brake lock up problem
just back them off a bit.
You could also fit a better designed load proportioning valve.

--
Daryl

On 17/7/2022 9:07 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 17/07/2022 5:31 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 17/7/2022 2:19 pm, Noddy wrote:
>
>>> Next door neighbour before I moved here bought a 147 about 6 months
>>> or so before I moved, and apart from it being in the dealership every
>>> other week for some fix or another it was the most lacklustre
>>> performing "sports" car I'd ever driven in my life. I'm not kidding,
>>> a Camry Sportivo would hand the thing it's arse, and his previous car
>>> which was a Telstar TX5 Turbo would have given it a good run for it's
>>> money.
>>
>> Son was given a 147 to wreck, car wasn't in bad condition and
>> apparently it drove ok but it had a bad alternator and believe it or
>> not the labor cost to replace it was more than the car was worth.
>
> I'm not at all surprised.
>
>> When I was told that my first thought was that it was BS so I had a
>> look and couldn't even find the alternator, its buried behind the EW
>> engine somewhere and the easiest was to access it is to drop the
>> subframe then move the engine forward, alternatively you have to
>> remove the inlet and lots of other bits, either way the owner opted to
>> junk the car instead of spending the money to get it fixed.
>
> Clearly the car was a wonderful driving experience :)
>
> I can't remember if the neighbour's car was a 4 or 6 cylinder variant,
> but I remember him showing me under the bonnet when he first bought it
> and my immediate thought was that Alfa must have Ray Charles in charge
> of their design team as it looked like the most fucked up arrangement
> you could eve3r imagine.
>
> Clearly the dealership service department thought so too, as they seemed
> to have it more than he did and they were never able to fix it.
>
>>> Last I heard the owner got sick of playing "Italian Roulette", which
>>> is the routine you go through every morning where you get in the car
>>> and crank the engine hoping like fuck it will be your lucky day and
>>> the thing will start and drive properly, and traded it on some
>>> "sport" version of a Mitsubishi Lancer.
>>>
>>> He never looked back after that.
>>>
>>
>> Long time ago but I don't recall it having any engine problems, all
>> the suspension bushings were very worn so it was all over the road,
>> window winders were cable operated and cables were badly frayed, even
>> if we could have gotten new ones it looked like a real prick of a job
>> to replace them, I think the handbrake cable also needed replacing.
>> None of the above was impossible to fix but at the time it just didn't
>> seem worth the time and effort, those 124 coupes in good condition can
>> be worth a bit of money now but they were almost worthless 30yrs ago.
>
> Just reminded me of another problem the thing had, which was with the
> rear brakes.
>
> As I said the things were a bit nose heavy and would dive under hard
> braking, and Fiat was obviously aware of that so they fitted a shut-off
> valve to the rear brakes that was operated by mechanical link to the
> rear suspension. The idea being that in the event that the nose dived
> heavily under brakes, the upward movement of the rear suspension would
> close the valve and shut off hydraulic pressure to the rear callipers
> which in turn would prevent the rear brakes from locking up as the
> weight transferred to the front.
>
> It was a stupid idea, and the best part about it was that it didn't work :)
>
> In fact it worked in reverse in that by the time the car nose dived hard
> enough to operate the valve the rear brakes were already heavily loaded
> and all the valve managed to do was to close *after* the event and keep
> the rear brakes fully pressurised and allow the wheels to lock under the
> reduced weight bias. You had to actually get off the brakes to get the
> rear wheels rolling again, and then hope you had enough road left to
> pedal your way out of trouble without doing it all over again. Not so
> bad on a straight dry road, but dicey in the wet :)

Oh my god Darren, you are such a fool! Don't you know by now to stay
away from technical discussions in which you have no training, no
experience and, more importantly, *no relevance* whatsoever?

The device of which you speak is a *load sensing proportioning valve*
and I'll place emphasis on the *proportioning* part of that.

Firstly, the *primary reason* reason they were fitted to FWD cars is the
huge difference in lading at the rear between when the car is empty and
with only a driver compared to when the car is fully laden, 4-5 people
plus luggage. The secondary feature is the weight transfer effect under
braking. Tyre grip is heavily affected by the load acting on the tread
contact patch. The important factor being that the most pressure
reaching the rear wheel cylinders before wheel lockup is when the
vehicle is the most heavily laden or when under hard braking. Any
requirement *less* than that, such as that encountered through weight
transfer, is *proportioned* appropriately. These have been in use on FWD
Euros as far back as the 70s and possibly earlier. My first experience
with one of these valves was on a Fiat 128 in 1972. No, that unit did
not have any form of operational delay, did not lock the rear wheels up
and, most importantly, did not make the car unstable under braking. I
know that for a fact because I had occasion to *drive that car*.

That *proportioning valve* did not, as you claim, *shut off pressure* to
the rear brakes. What it did was *proportion* the pressure to the rear
brakes according to an initial set constant and then, in addition, could
further *vary* the proportioning according to the load at the rear of
the vehicle. In *normal operation* that valve could not shut off the
rear brake pressure until and unless the rear wheels were off the
ground. Think about that a little.

Proportioning valves are not a new thing. They were incorporated into
mainstream Aussie cars, initially as a separate device like this;

https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/faqs/5144/combo_valve.jpg

and later incorporated into the master cylinder on tandem brake systems.

It was only on FWD and commercial vehicles where manufacturers went one
step further and provided compensation for vehicle loading and fitted
the load sensing proportioning valve.

Putting in a *lift kit* will require rejigging of the adjustment. By
raising the vehicle, the LSP Valve will not get a true reading of
vehicle loading and so reduce pressure to the rear brakes when it isn't
warranted and increase front brake loading and wear. This will also
negatively affect vehicle stability.

If you had a FWD vehicle in which the rear brakes were locking up, you
had either a *faulty valve* or a *maladjusted one*. A weakened spring is
a possibility since it would give the same effect as light loading but
I'd favour maladjustment by an untrained person who hasn't a clue how
they operate, a person like you in fact. These LSP valves rarely give
trouble. What you should have done was *fix* the problem instead of
using it as an example to hang shit on Euro cars. All you've done
instead is draw attention to your lack of qualifications and training.
You do that a lot, eh?

You were possibly confused by thinking of the original Mini which did
have a brake pressure *limiting* valve on the rear brake lines. A
different beast indeed. Another point worthy of note. Brake LSP valves
are not made by the *car manufacturer*. They are designed and
manufactured by OEM suppliers - such as PBR, Bendix, Girling, et al.

Darren, you are *living proof* that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 18/07/2022 12:02 am, Xeno wrote:
> On 17/7/2022 9:07 pm, Noddy wrote:
>> On 17/07/2022 5:31 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>> On 17/7/2022 2:19 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>
>>>> Next door neighbour before I moved here bought a 147 about 6 months
>>>> or so before I moved, and apart from it being in the dealership
>>>> every other week for some fix or another it was the most lacklustre
>>>> performing "sports" car I'd ever driven in my life. I'm not
>>>> kidding, a Camry Sportivo would hand the thing it's arse, and his
>>>> previous car which was a Telstar TX5 Turbo would have given it a
>>>> good run for it's money.
>>>
>>> Son was given a 147 to wreck, car wasn't in bad condition and
>>> apparently it drove ok but it had a bad alternator and believe it or
>>> not the labor cost to replace it was more than the car was worth.
>>
>> I'm not at all surprised.
>>
>>> When I was told that my first thought was that it was BS so I had a
>>> look and couldn't even find the alternator, its buried behind the EW
>>> engine somewhere and the easiest was to access it is to drop the
>>> subframe then move the engine forward, alternatively you have to
>>> remove the inlet and lots of other bits, either way the owner opted
>>> to junk the car instead of spending the money to get it fixed.
>>
>> Clearly the car was a wonderful driving experience :)
>>
>> I can't remember if the neighbour's car was a 4 or 6 cylinder
>> variant, but I remember him showing me under the bonnet when he first
>> bought it and my immediate thought was that Alfa must have Ray
>> Charles in charge of their design team as it looked like the most
>> fucked up arrangement you could eve3r imagine.
>>
>> Clearly the dealership service department thought so too, as they
>> seemed to have it more than he did and they were never able to fix it.
>>
>>>> Last I heard the owner got sick of playing "Italian Roulette",
>>>> which is the routine you go through every morning where you get in
>>>> the car and crank the engine hoping like fuck it will be your lucky
>>>> day and the thing will start and drive properly, and traded it on
>>>> some "sport" version of a Mitsubishi Lancer.
>>>>
>>>> He never looked back after that.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Long time ago but I don't recall it having any engine problems, all
>>> the suspension bushings were very worn so it was all over the road,
>>> window winders were cable operated and cables were badly frayed,
>>> even if we could have gotten new ones it looked like a real prick of
>>> a job to replace them, I think the handbrake cable also needed
>>> replacing.
>>> None of the above was impossible to fix but at the time it just
>>> didn't seem worth the time and effort, those 124 coupes in good
>>> condition can be worth a bit of money now but they were almost
>>> worthless 30yrs ago.
>>
>> Just reminded me of another problem the thing had, which was with the
>> rear brakes.
>>
>> As I said the things were a bit nose heavy and would dive under hard
>> braking, and Fiat was obviously aware of that so they fitted a
>> shut-off valve to the rear brakes that was operated by mechanical
>> link to the rear suspension. The idea being that in the event that
>> the nose dived heavily under brakes, the upward movement of the rear
>> suspension would close the valve and shut off hydraulic pressure to
>> the rear callipers which in turn would prevent the rear brakes from
>> locking up as the weight transferred to the front.
>>
>> It was a stupid idea, and the best part about it was that it didn't
>> work :)
>>
>> In fact it worked in reverse in that by the time the car nose dived
>> hard enough to operate the valve the rear brakes were already heavily
>> loaded and all the valve managed to do was to close *after* the event
>> and keep the rear brakes fully pressurised and allow the wheels to
>> lock under the reduced weight bias. You had to actually get off the
>> brakes to get the rear wheels rolling again, and then hope you had
>> enough road left to pedal your way out of trouble without doing it
>> all over again. Not so bad on a straight dry road, but dicey in the
>> wet :)
>
> Oh my god Darren, you are such a fool! Don't you know by now to stay
> away from technical discussions in which you have no training, no
> experience and, more importantly, *no relevance* whatsoever?
>
> The device of which you speak is a *load sensing proportioning valve*
> and I'll place emphasis on the *proportioning* part of that.
>
> Firstly, the *primary reason* reason they were fitted to FWD cars is
> the huge difference in lading at the rear between when the car is
> empty and with only a driver compared to when the car is fully laden,
> 4-5 people plus luggage. The secondary feature is the weight transfer
> effect under braking. Tyre grip is heavily affected by the load acting
> on the tread contact patch. The important factor being that the most
> pressure reaching the rear wheel cylinders before wheel lockup is when
> the vehicle is the most heavily laden or when under hard braking. Any
> requirement *less* than that, such as that encountered through weight
> transfer, is *proportioned* appropriately. These have been in use on
> FWD Euros as far back as the 70s and possibly earlier. My first
> experience with one of these valves was on a Fiat 128 in 1972. No,
> that unit did not have any form of operational delay, did not lock the
> rear wheels up and, most importantly, did not make the car unstable
> under braking. I know that for a fact because I had occasion to *drive
> that car*.
>
> That *proportioning valve* did not, as you claim, *shut off pressure*
> to the rear brakes. What it did was *proportion* the pressure to the
> rear brakes according to an initial set constant and then, in
> addition, could further *vary* the proportioning according to the load
> at the rear of the vehicle. In *normal operation* that valve could not
> shut off the rear brake pressure until and unless the rear wheels were
> off the ground. Think about that a little.
>
> Proportioning valves are not a new thing. They were incorporated into
> mainstream Aussie cars, initially as a separate device like this;
>
> https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/faqs/5144/combo_valve.jpg
>
> and later incorporated into the master cylinder on tandem brake systems.
>
> It was only on FWD and commercial vehicles where manufacturers went
> one step further and provided compensation for vehicle loading and
> fitted the load sensing proportioning valve.
>
> Putting in a *lift kit* will require rejigging of the adjustment. By
> raising the vehicle, the LSP Valve will not get a true reading of
> vehicle loading and so reduce pressure to the rear brakes when it
> isn't warranted and increase front brake loading and wear. This will
> also negatively affect vehicle stability.
>
> If you had a FWD vehicle in which the rear brakes were locking up, you
> had either a *faulty valve* or a *maladjusted one*. A weakened spring
> is a possibility since it would give the same effect as light loading
> but I'd favour maladjustment by an untrained person who hasn't a clue
> how they operate, a person like you in fact. These LSP valves rarely
> give trouble. What you should have done was *fix* the problem instead
> of using it as an example to hang shit on Euro cars. All you've done
> instead is draw attention to your lack of qualifications and training.
> You do that a lot, eh?
>
> You were possibly confused by thinking of the original Mini which did
> have a brake pressure *limiting* valve on the rear brake lines. A
> different beast indeed. Another point worthy of note. Brake LSP valves
> are not made by the *car manufacturer*. They are designed and
> manufactured by OEM suppliers - such as PBR, Bendix, Girling, et al.
>
> Darren, you are *living proof* that a little knowledge is a dangerous
> thing.
>

he aint called noddy for no good reason!  :)

--
https://tinyurl.com/Yosemite-Sam

FUCK PUTIN!!

On 17/7/2022 10:18 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 17/7/2022 9:07 pm, Noddy wrote:
>> On 17/07/2022 5:31 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>> On 17/7/2022 2:19 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>
>>>> Next door neighbour before I moved here bought a 147 about 6 months
>>>> or so before I moved, and apart from it being in the dealership
>>>> every other week for some fix or another it was the most lacklustre
>>>> performing "sports" car I'd ever driven in my life. I'm not kidding,
>>>> a Camry Sportivo would hand the thing it's arse, and his previous
>>>> car which was a Telstar TX5 Turbo would have given it a good run for
>>>> it's money.
>>>
>>> Son was given a 147 to wreck, car wasn't in bad condition and
>>> apparently it drove ok but it had a bad alternator and believe it or
>>> not the labor cost to replace it was more than the car was worth.
>>
>> I'm not at all surprised.
>>
>>> When I was told that my first thought was that it was BS so I had a
>>> look and couldn't even find the alternator, its buried behind the EW
>>> engine somewhere and the easiest was to access it is to drop the
>>> subframe then move the engine forward, alternatively you have to
>>> remove the inlet and lots of other bits, either way the owner opted
>>> to junk the car instead of spending the money to get it fixed.
>>
>> Clearly the car was a wonderful driving experience :)
>>
>> I can't remember if the neighbour's car was a 4 or 6 cylinder variant,
>> but I remember him showing me under the bonnet when he first bought it
>> and my immediate thought was that Alfa must have Ray Charles in charge
>> of their design team as it looked like the most fucked up arrangement
>> you could eve3r imagine.
>>
>
> The one I looked at was a 4cyl, at first glance it looked conventional
> enough but for some inexplicable reason they buried the alternator in
> place where it was very difficult to access.
>
>> Clearly the dealership service department thought so too, as they
>> seemed to have it more than he did and they were never able to fix it.
>>
>>>> Last I heard the owner got sick of playing "Italian Roulette", which
>>>> is the routine you go through every morning where you get in the car
>>>> and crank the engine hoping like fuck it will be your lucky day and
>>>> the thing will start and drive properly, and traded it on some
>>>> "sport" version of a Mitsubishi Lancer.
>>>>
>>>> He never looked back after that.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Long time ago but I don't recall it having any engine problems, all
>>> the suspension bushings were very worn so it was all over the road,
>>> window winders were cable operated and cables were badly frayed, even
>>> if we could have gotten new ones it looked like a real prick of a job
>>> to replace them, I think the handbrake cable also needed replacing.
>>> None of the above was impossible to fix but at the time it just
>>> didn't seem worth the time and effort, those 124 coupes in good
>>> condition can be worth a bit of money now but they were almost
>>> worthless 30yrs ago.
>>
>> Just reminded me of another problem the thing had, which was with the
>> rear brakes.
>>
>> As I said the things were a bit nose heavy and would dive under hard
>> braking, and Fiat was obviously aware of that so they fitted a
>> shut-off valve to the rear brakes that was operated by mechanical link
>> to the rear suspension. The idea being that in the event that the nose
>> dived heavily under brakes, the upward movement of the rear suspension
>> would close the valve and shut off hydraulic pressure to the rear
>> callipers which in turn would prevent the rear brakes from locking up
>> as the weight transferred to the front.
>>
>> It was a stupid idea, and the best part about it was that it didn't
>> work :)
>>
>> In fact it worked in reverse in that by the time the car nose dived
>> hard enough to operate the valve the rear brakes were already heavily
>> loaded and all the valve managed to do was to close *after* the event
>> and keep the rear brakes fully pressurised and allow the wheels to
>> lock under the reduced weight bias. You had to actually get off the
>> brakes to get the rear wheels rolling again, and then hope you had
>> enough road left to pedal your way out of trouble without doing it all
>> over again. Not so bad on a straight dry road, but dicey in the wet :)
>>
>>
> Never drove one long enough to encounter any problems like that but
> sounds like it wouldn't have been all that difficult to sort out, just
> remove the linkage and if you still had a rear brake lock up problem
> just back them off a bit.

Darren is too stupid to realise that!

> You could also fit a better designed load proportioning valve.

No need, they haven't changed much in the years since the 70s. The later
iterations can be fitted to the original cars of the 70s with minimal
fuss or bother. They are, after all, an incredibly simple design - and
they work.

In these times their use has been negated by the universal use of ABS
since that system has direct feedback re wheel lockup sensing - and on
each wheel individually. What's more, ABS can apply or release each
wheel brake individually with extremely fast electronic control!

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 18/7/2022 12:16 am, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> On 18/07/2022 12:02 am, Xeno wrote:
>> On 17/7/2022 9:07 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 17/07/2022 5:31 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>> On 17/7/2022 2:19 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Next door neighbour before I moved here bought a 147 about 6 months
>>>>> or so before I moved, and apart from it being in the dealership
>>>>> every other week for some fix or another it was the most lacklustre
>>>>> performing "sports" car I'd ever driven in my life. I'm not
>>>>> kidding, a Camry Sportivo would hand the thing it's arse, and his
>>>>> previous car which was a Telstar TX5 Turbo would have given it a
>>>>> good run for it's money.
>>>>
>>>> Son was given a 147 to wreck, car wasn't in bad condition and
>>>> apparently it drove ok but it had a bad alternator and believe it or
>>>> not the labor cost to replace it was more than the car was worth.
>>>
>>> I'm not at all surprised.
>>>
>>>> When I was told that my first thought was that it was BS so I had a
>>>> look and couldn't even find the alternator, its buried behind the EW
>>>> engine somewhere and the easiest was to access it is to drop the
>>>> subframe then move the engine forward, alternatively you have to
>>>> remove the inlet and lots of other bits, either way the owner opted
>>>> to junk the car instead of spending the money to get it fixed.
>>>
>>> Clearly the car was a wonderful driving experience :)
>>>
>>> I can't remember if the neighbour's car was a 4 or 6 cylinder
>>> variant, but I remember him showing me under the bonnet when he first
>>> bought it and my immediate thought was that Alfa must have Ray
>>> Charles in charge of their design team as it looked like the most
>>> fucked up arrangement you could eve3r imagine.
>>>
>>> Clearly the dealership service department thought so too, as they
>>> seemed to have it more than he did and they were never able to fix it.
>>>
>>>>> Last I heard the owner got sick of playing "Italian Roulette",
>>>>> which is the routine you go through every morning where you get in
>>>>> the car and crank the engine hoping like fuck it will be your lucky
>>>>> day and the thing will start and drive properly, and traded it on
>>>>> some "sport" version of a Mitsubishi Lancer.
>>>>>
>>>>> He never looked back after that.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Long time ago but I don't recall it having any engine problems, all
>>>> the suspension bushings were very worn so it was all over the road,
>>>> window winders were cable operated and cables were badly frayed,
>>>> even if we could have gotten new ones it looked like a real prick of
>>>> a job to replace them, I think the handbrake cable also needed
>>>> replacing.
>>>> None of the above was impossible to fix but at the time it just
>>>> didn't seem worth the time and effort, those 124 coupes in good
>>>> condition can be worth a bit of money now but they were almost
>>>> worthless 30yrs ago.
>>>
>>> Just reminded me of another problem the thing had, which was with the
>>> rear brakes.
>>>
>>> As I said the things were a bit nose heavy and would dive under hard
>>> braking, and Fiat was obviously aware of that so they fitted a
>>> shut-off valve to the rear brakes that was operated by mechanical
>>> link to the rear suspension. The idea being that in the event that
>>> the nose dived heavily under brakes, the upward movement of the rear
>>> suspension would close the valve and shut off hydraulic pressure to
>>> the rear callipers which in turn would prevent the rear brakes from
>>> locking up as the weight transferred to the front.
>>>
>>> It was a stupid idea, and the best part about it was that it didn't
>>> work :)
>>>
>>> In fact it worked in reverse in that by the time the car nose dived
>>> hard enough to operate the valve the rear brakes were already heavily
>>> loaded and all the valve managed to do was to close *after* the event
>>> and keep the rear brakes fully pressurised and allow the wheels to
>>> lock under the reduced weight bias. You had to actually get off the
>>> brakes to get the rear wheels rolling again, and then hope you had
>>> enough road left to pedal your way out of trouble without doing it
>>> all over again. Not so bad on a straight dry road, but dicey in the
>>> wet :)
>>
>> Oh my god Darren, you are such a fool! Don't you know by now to stay
>> away from technical discussions in which you have no training, no
>> experience and, more importantly, *no relevance* whatsoever?
>>
>> The device of which you speak is a *load sensing proportioning valve*
>> and I'll place emphasis on the *proportioning* part of that.
>>
>> Firstly, the *primary reason* reason they were fitted to FWD cars is
>> the huge difference in lading at the rear between when the car is
>> empty and with only a driver compared to when the car is fully laden,
>> 4-5 people plus luggage. The secondary feature is the weight transfer
>> effect under braking. Tyre grip is heavily affected by the load acting
>> on the tread contact patch. The important factor being that the most
>> pressure reaching the rear wheel cylinders before wheel lockup is when
>> the vehicle is the most heavily laden or when under hard braking. Any
>> requirement *less* than that, such as that encountered through weight
>> transfer, is *proportioned* appropriately. These have been in use on
>> FWD Euros as far back as the 70s and possibly earlier. My first
>> experience with one of these valves was on a Fiat 128 in 1972. No,
>> that unit did not have any form of operational delay, did not lock the
>> rear wheels up and, most importantly, did not make the car unstable
>> under braking. I know that for a fact because I had occasion to *drive
>> that car*.
>>
>> That *proportioning valve* did not, as you claim, *shut off pressure*
>> to the rear brakes. What it did was *proportion* the pressure to the
>> rear brakes according to an initial set constant and then, in
>> addition, could further *vary* the proportioning according to the load
>> at the rear of the vehicle. In *normal operation* that valve could not
>> shut off the rear brake pressure until and unless the rear wheels were
>> off the ground. Think about that a little.
>>
>> Proportioning valves are not a new thing. They were incorporated into
>> mainstream Aussie cars, initially as a separate device like this;
>>
>> https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/faqs/5144/combo_valve.jpg
>>
>> and later incorporated into the master cylinder on tandem brake systems.
>>
>> It was only on FWD and commercial vehicles where manufacturers went
>> one step further and provided compensation for vehicle loading and
>> fitted the load sensing proportioning valve.
>>
>> Putting in a *lift kit* will require rejigging of the adjustment. By
>> raising the vehicle, the LSP Valve will not get a true reading of
>> vehicle loading and so reduce pressure to the rear brakes when it
>> isn't warranted and increase front brake loading and wear. This will
>> also negatively affect vehicle stability.
>>
>> If you had a FWD vehicle in which the rear brakes were locking up, you
>> had either a *faulty valve* or a *maladjusted one*. A weakened spring
>> is a possibility since it would give the same effect as light loading
>> but I'd favour maladjustment by an untrained person who hasn't a clue
>> how they operate, a person like you in fact. These LSP valves rarely
>> give trouble. What you should have done was *fix* the problem instead
>> of using it as an example to hang shit on Euro cars. All you've done
>> instead is draw attention to your lack of qualifications and training.
>> You do that a lot, eh?
>>
>> You were possibly confused by thinking of the original Mini which did
>> have a brake pressure *limiting* valve on the rear brake lines. A
>> different beast indeed. Another point worthy of note. Brake LSP valves
>> are not made by the *car manufacturer*. They are designed and
>> manufactured by OEM suppliers - such as PBR, Bendix, Girling, et al.
>>
>> Darren, you are *living proof* that a little knowledge is a dangerous
>> thing.
>>
>
> he aint called noddy for no good reason!  :)
>
You ain't wrong!

On 17/07/2022 10:18 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 17/7/2022 9:07 pm, Noddy wrote:

>> In fact it worked in reverse in that by the time the car nose dived
>> hard enough to operate the valve the rear brakes were already heavily
>> loaded and all the valve managed to do was to close *after* the event
>> and keep the rear brakes fully pressurised and allow the wheels to
>> lock under the reduced weight bias. You had to actually get off the
>> brakes to get the rear wheels rolling again, and then hope you had
>> enough road left to pedal your way out of trouble without doing it all
>> over again. Not so bad on a straight dry road, but dicey in the wet :)
>>
>>
> Never drove one long enough to encounter any problems like that but
> sounds like it wouldn't have been all that difficult to sort out, just
> remove the linkage and if you still had a rear brake lock up problem
> just back them off a bit.
> You could also fit a better designed load proportioning valve.

The owner never kept the car long enough to be bothered with it.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 07:31:56 +1000, Noddy wrote:

> On 17/07/2022 10:18 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 17/7/2022 9:07 pm, Noddy wrote:
>
>>> In fact it worked in reverse in that by the time the car nose dived
>>> hard enough to operate the valve the rear brakes were already heavily
>>> loaded and all the valve managed to do was to close *after* the event
>>> and keep the rear brakes fully pressurised and allow the wheels to
>>> lock under the reduced weight bias. You had to actually get off the
>>> brakes to get the rear wheels rolling again, and then hope you had
>>> enough road left to pedal your way out of trouble without doing it all
>>> over again. Not so bad on a straight dry road, but dicey in the wet :)
>>>
>>>
>> Never drove one long enough to encounter any problems like that but
>> sounds like it wouldn't have been all that difficult to sort out, just
>> remove the linkage and if you still had a rear brake lock up problem
>> just back them off a bit.
>> You could also fit a better designed load proportioning valve.
>
> The owner never kept the car long enough to be bothered with it.

Oh btw Fraudster, this Fiat 124 for which you claimed to have rebuilt the
engine. Whereabouts did you do this? Was it in the street outside your
parents home? (You know. The registered PoB for the fabled NAoA). Or was it
in your carport at Altona?

alvey
Just a tad dubious. [He said. With heavy ironing].

--
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On 18/7/2022 7:31 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 17/07/2022 10:18 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 17/7/2022 9:07 pm, Noddy wrote:
>
>>> In fact it worked in reverse in that by the time the car nose dived
>>> hard enough to operate the valve the rear brakes were already heavily
>>> loaded and all the valve managed to do was to close *after* the event
>>> and keep the rear brakes fully pressurised and allow the wheels to
>>> lock under the reduced weight bias. You had to actually get off the
>>> brakes to get the rear wheels rolling again, and then hope you had
>>> enough road left to pedal your way out of trouble without doing it
>>> all over again. Not so bad on a straight dry road, but dicey in the
>>> wet :)
>>>
>>>
>> Never drove one long enough to encounter any problems like that but
>> sounds like it wouldn't have been all that difficult to sort out, just
>> remove the linkage and if you still had a rear brake lock up problem
>> just back them off a bit.
>> You could also fit a better designed load proportioning valve.
>
> The owner never kept the car long enough to be bothered with it.
>
Bullshit Darren, this is just another one of your massive back pedal
efforts when you realise you've cocked up right royally. Ooops! ;-)

At least Daryl had a clue about load sensing proportioning valves but
that's no more than I would have expected given he, unlike you, actually
completed an apprenticeship. He likely wouldn't have studied them during
his apprenticeship because they were exactly a common item at that time but

A standard proportioning valve, including those incorporated into the
master cylinder, have a *fixed* proportioning valve with a predetermined
*crack pressure*. That crack pressure is stamped into the unit and you
need to ensure you replace a unit with one having the same crack
pressure. The master cylinder with incorporated proportioning valve will
have the crack pressure stamped on its end near the rear brake line
fitting. They can be *tested* for correct operation using a pair of
pressure gauges. By applying pressure at the brake pedal, the outlet
pressures can be tested and compared. They should be the same until the
crack pressure is reached, then the rear will increase at a
proportionally *lower* rate. For instance, a proportioning valve having
a crack pressure of 550 psi will have, at a front brake pressure of 700
psi, a rear brake pressure of between 576 - 637 psi. This crack pressure
is determined by the internal spring. Load sensing valves do not have a
fixed crack pressure. This is determined by the tension on the link
spring and is, of course, adjustable.

Darren, you are living proof that the trade in Victoria *needs
regulation* to keep untrained and unqualified nuff nuffs like you out of it.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)