Friend has died, her life was on her phone, her family need access to the phone but the one thing she does not seem to have written down is her PIN.

There are shops offering 'unlocking' services, does that recover the PIN?

Very wary as if they damage the data the family would be stuffed. I am planning to ask the bobbies if they have an approved 'unlocker', and to check that what I am contemplating is legal

Anyone had anything similar? Any suggestions?

Cheers

Mike

On Fri, 23 Dec 2022 14:04:22 -0800 (PST)
Mike Smith <theothermikesmith@gmail.com> wrote:

> There are shops offering 'unlocking' services, does that recover the PIN?

No it does not, they just remove the service provider lock.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

Mike Smith <theothermikesmith@gmail.com> wrote:
> Friend has died, her life was on her phone, her family need access to the
> phone but the one thing she does not seem to have written down is her PIN.
>
> There are shops offering 'unlocking' services, does that recover the PIN?

No.

> Very wary as if they damage the data the family would be stuffed. I am
> planning to ask the bobbies if they have an approved 'unlocker', and to
> check that what I am contemplating is legal

Even after death I suspect that unless a crime is suspected, what you’re
trying to do would be illegal.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 23/12/2022 22:04, Mike Smith wrote:
> Friend has died, her life was on her phone, her family need access to the phone but the one thing she does not seem to have written down is her PIN.
>
> There are shops offering 'unlocking' services, does that recover the PIN?
>
No, but it renders it unnecessary. If you get the PUK (Personal
Unlocking Key), you can do it yourself. The instructions here work on
all networks. It can sometimes be done by the service provider sending a
text message to the phone in question.

https://mobile.asda.com/scoop/how-to-unlock-your-phone-with-a-puk-code

> Very wary as if they damage the data the family would be stuffed. I am planning to ask the bobbies if they have an approved 'unlocker', and to check that what I am contemplating is legal
>
Unlocking using the PUK leaves the data intact.

> Anyone had anything similar? Any suggestions?
>
You need to get the Personal Unlocking Key from the service provider,
and the requester may need to provide a copy of the death certificate
and proof that they are responsible for probate.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Sat, 24 Dec 2022 09:24:21 +0000
John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

> You need to get the Personal Unlocking Key from the service provider,

That was the bit I was stuck at, I didn't know the service provider
could produce the PUK - I've been keeping mine very safe and never used.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On 24/12/2022 10:26, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Dec 2022 09:24:21 +0000
> John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> You need to get the Personal Unlocking Key from the service provider,
>
> That was the bit I was stuck at, I didn't know the service provider
> could produce the PUK - I've been keeping mine very safe and never used.
>
It's printed on the SIM card holder when you buy the card.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 24/12/2022 10:26, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Dec 2022 09:24:21 +0000
> John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> You need to get the Personal Unlocking Key from the service provider,
>
> That was the bit I was stuck at, I didn't know the service provider
> could produce the PUK - I've been keeping mine very safe and never used.
>
If it's am iPhone, you can buy a PC program from Easeus which claims to
unlock it without the PUK.

I vaguely remember that one was wrtten by one of the security sellers
when the NSA needed to unencrypt one a while ago, though Apple claim to
have closed that back door now.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Sat, 24 Dec 2022 10:49:12 +0000
John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

<re PUK>

> It's printed on the SIM card holder when you buy the card.

Yes I know - I just thought that was the only place it was recorded.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On 2022-12-24, John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On 24/12/2022 10:26, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Sat, 24 Dec 2022 09:24:21 +0000
>> John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You need to get the Personal Unlocking Key from the service provider,
>>
>> That was the bit I was stuck at, I didn't know the service provider
>> could produce the PUK - I've been keeping mine very safe and never used.
>>
> It's printed on the SIM card holder when you buy the card.
>

Which may have been many years ago, and last week is hard to remember

--
greymausg@mail.com

Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum, I smell the stench of an Influencer.
Where is our money gone, Dude?

This must happen a lot though, there is usually some way around these things
using some trusted email account or secondary phone number.
Of course it needs this sort of thing to be set up, Ahem.
I can for example change my pin if I have the apple id and password, and
even then it will send an email to an account with a verification code on
it.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Tim+" <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1989035533.693561489.943893.tim.downie-gmail.com@news.individual.net...
> Mike Smith <theothermikesmith@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Friend has died, her life was on her phone, her family need access to the
>> phone but the one thing she does not seem to have written down is her
>> PIN.
>>
>> There are shops offering 'unlocking' services, does that recover the PIN?
>
> No.
>
>> Very wary as if they damage the data the family would be stuffed. I am
>> planning to ask the bobbies if they have an approved 'unlocker', and to
>> check that what I am contemplating is legal
>
> Even after death I suspect that unless a crime is suspected, what you're
> trying to do would be illegal.
>
> Tim
>
> --
> Please don't feed the trolls

On Saturday, 24 December 2022 at 12:38:30 UTC, Brian Gaff wrote:
> This must happen a lot though, there is usually some way around these things
> using some trusted email account or secondary phone number.
> Of course it needs this sort of thing to be set up, Ahem.
> I can for example change my pin if I have the apple id and password, and
> even then it will send an email to an account with a verification code on
> it.
> Brian
>
> --
>
> --:
> This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
> The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
> bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
> Blind user, so no pictures please
> Note this Signature is meaningless.!
> "Tim+" <tim.d...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1989035533.693561489.943...@news.individual.net...
> > Mike Smith <theother...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Friend has died, her life was on her phone, her family need access to the
> >> phone but the one thing she does not seem to have written down is her
> >> PIN.
> >>
> >> There are shops offering 'unlocking' services, does that recover the PIN?
> >
> > No.
> >
> >> Very wary as if they damage the data the family would be stuffed. I am
> >> planning to ask the bobbies if they have an approved 'unlocker', and to
> >> check that what I am contemplating is legal
> >
> > Even after death I suspect that unless a crime is suspected, what you're
> > trying to do would be illegal.
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > --
> > Please don't feed the trolls

Thanks team - Hope this appears (summat seems to be up with Gargle Gropes at the moment).

Best wishes to all for Xmas/Yule/winter solstice/Hanukkah/whatever the lizard people from Planet Nine call it.

Mike

On Fri, 23 Dec 2022 14:04:22 -0800 (PST), Mike Smith
<theothermikesmith@gmail.com> wrote:

>Friend has died, her life was on her phone, her family need access to the phone but the one thing she does not seem to have written down is her PIN.
>
>There are shops offering 'unlocking' services, does that recover the PIN?
>
>Very wary as if they damage the data the family would be stuffed. I am planning to ask the bobbies if they have an approved 'unlocker', and to check that what I am contemplating is legal
>
>Anyone had anything similar? Any suggestions?
>
My smartphone is very old so perhaps security is tighter now but:

If the PUK is in the SIM and printed on the side of the sim card
holder, wouldn't swapping the SIM do the trick?

When I connect my smartphone to my computer it automatically treats it
as a storage device and allows me to access all the files as if it
were a pendrive.

Art

On Fri, 23 Dec 2022 14:04:22 -0800 (PST), Mike Smith
<theothermikesmith@gmail.com> wrote:

>Friend has died, her life was on her phone, her family need access to the phone
>but the one thing she does not seem to have written down is her PIN.
>There are shops offering 'unlocking' services, does that recover the PIN?
>Very wary as if they damage the data the family would be stuffed.
> I am planning to ask the bobbies if they have an approved 'unlocker', and to check that what I am contemplating is legal
>Anyone had anything similar? Any suggestions?
>Cheers
>Mike

Condolences on the loss of your friend.
Wish I could offer some real technical assistance - alas :

terminology :
- cell phone unlocking < usually > refers to freeing the
cell phone from its original dedicated plan provider < carrier >
so that it can be used with a different carrier.
Sometimes this can be achieved by the expert user but
often the carrier needs to be involved and may charge a fee.
I believe that this will _not_ serve to bypass the
access PIN code.

A quick google search turned up an array of mostly useless links -
but this one described the PIN code vs PUK code :

https://www.gsmarena.com/glossary.php3?term=pin-code

The googled DIY methods / hacks seemed to act like a
system reset - which will lose all the data.
Good luck.
John T.

On Sat, 24 Dec 2022 17:48:17 -0500, hubops@ccanoemail.com wrote:

>On Fri, 23 Dec 2022 14:04:22 -0800 (PST), Mike Smith
><theothermikesmith@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Friend has died, her life was on her phone, her family need access to the phone
>>but the one thing she does not seem to have written down is her PIN.
>>There are shops offering 'unlocking' services, does that recover the PIN?
>>Very wary as if they damage the data the family would be stuffed.
>> I am planning to ask the bobbies if they have an approved 'unlocker', and to check that what I am contemplating is legal
>>Anyone had anything similar? Any suggestions?
>>Cheers
>>Mike
>
>
> Condolences on the loss of your friend.
>Wish I could offer some real technical assistance - alas :
>
> terminology :
> - cell phone unlocking < usually > refers to freeing the
>cell phone from its original dedicated plan provider < carrier >
> so that it can be used with a different carrier.
> Sometimes this can be achieved by the expert user but
>often the carrier needs to be involved and may charge a fee.
> I believe that this will _not_ serve to bypass the
> access PIN code.
>
>A quick google search turned up an array of mostly useless links -
> but this one described the PIN code vs PUK code :
>
>https://www.gsmarena.com/glossary.php3?term=pin-code
>
> The googled DIY methods / hacks seemed to act like a
> system reset - which will lose all the data.
> Good luck.
> John T.

If her life was on the cell phone - I suspect that it
_was_ actually PIN protected - ? - but not everyone
bothers with that .. I don't bother with it for my phone
nor my laptop ..
John T.

In article <l5ueqhd851iepklt980oup35ivq4c98320@4ax.com>,
hubops@ccanoemail.com on Sat, 24 Dec 2022 at 17:48:17 awoke Nicholas
from his slumbers and wrote
>On Fri, 23 Dec 2022 14:04:22 -0800 (PST), Mike Smith
><theothermikesmith@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Friend has died, her life was on her phone, her family need access to the phone
>>but the one thing she does not seem to have written down is her PIN.
>>There are shops offering 'unlocking' services, does that recover the PIN?
>>Very wary as if they damage the data the family would be stuffed.
>> I am planning to ask the bobbies if they have an approved 'unlocker', and to
>check that what I am contemplating is legal
>>Anyone had anything similar? Any suggestions?
>>Cheers
>>Mike
>
>
> Condolences on the loss of your friend.
>Wish I could offer some real technical assistance - alas :
>
> terminology :
> - cell phone unlocking < usually > refers to freeing the
>cell phone from its original dedicated plan provider < carrier >
> so that it can be used with a different carrier.
> Sometimes this can be achieved by the expert user but
>often the carrier needs to be involved and may charge a fee.
> I believe that this will _not_ serve to bypass the
> access PIN code.
>
>A quick google search turned up an array of mostly useless links -
> but this one described the PIN code vs PUK code :
>
>https://www.gsmarena.com/glossary.php3?term=pin-code
>
> The googled DIY methods / hacks seemed to act like a
> system reset - which will lose all the data.
> Good luck.
> John T.
On my (ahem) ancient Blackberry entering the phones PIN incorrectly 10
times will cause the phone to perform a security wipe. I know of no way
to break this feature. Loose the PIN and you have lost the phone data.
The PIN protects the phone not the SIM card and, if set, will need to be
entered when the phone is restarted and as you cannot change SIM cards
without restarting, a new SIM will not bring you closer to data on ythe
phone.

The SIM's PIN protects the SIM and therefore access to the service
provider's network. You usually use it everytime you 'unlock' the phone
before you use it. Entering an incorrect three times PIN on my SIM (from
EE) will lock the SIM. A lost SIM PIN or 'locked' can be overridden
with the PUK. Entering an incorrect PUK a certain number of times (I
cannot remember how many) will render a SIM unusuable and a new SIM will
be required.

Many phones are sold tied to a service provider, if the came as part of
a contract. Overcoming this tie is also known as 'unlocking' which
usually phone phone shops mean by the term.

I can access the data on my phone from my PC, however this requires me
to enter the phone's PIN before granting access.
--
0sterc@tcher -

"Où sont les neiges d'antan?"

On 2022-12-24, Mike Smith <theothermikesmith@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, 24 December 2022 at 12:38:30 UTC, Brian Gaff wrote:
>> This must happen a lot though, there is usually some way around these things
>> using some trusted email account or secondary phone number.
>> Of course it needs this sort of thing to be set up, Ahem.
>> I can for example change my pin if I have the apple id and password, and
>> even then it will send an email to an account with a verification code on
>> it.
>> Brian
>>
>> --
>>
>> --:
>> This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
>> The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
>> bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
>> Blind user, so no pictures please
>> Note this Signature is meaningless.!
>> "Tim+" <tim.d...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1989035533.693561489.943...@news.individual.net...
>> > Mike Smith <theother...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> Friend has died, her life was on her phone, her family need access to the
>> >> phone but the one thing she does not seem to have written down is her
>> >> PIN.
>> >>
>> >> There are shops offering 'unlocking' services, does that recover the PIN?
>> >
>> > No.
>> >
>> >> Very wary as if they damage the data the family would be stuffed. I am
>> >> planning to ask the bobbies if they have an approved 'unlocker', and to
>> >> check that what I am contemplating is legal
>> >
>> > Even after death I suspect that unless a crime is suspected, what you're
>> > trying to do would be illegal.
>> >
>> > Tim
>> >
>> > --
>> > Please don't feed the trolls
>
>
> Thanks team - Hope this appears (summat seems to be up with Gargle Gropes at the moment).
>
> Best wishes to all for Xmas/Yule/winter solstice/Hanukkah/whatever the lizard people from Planet Nine call it.
>
> Mike

kwazza?

Anyone having a saturnalia this year?

Anyone define where in the four gospels it is defined that the birth of
the Lord is in December, or that a family from Galilee would have to
travel to Judea?.

--
greymausg@mail.com

Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum, I smell the stench of an Influencer.
Where is our money gone, Dude?

On 23/12/2022 22:04, Mike Smith wrote:
> Friend has died, her life was on her phone, her family need access to the phone but the one thing she does not seem to have written down is her PIN.
>
> There are shops offering 'unlocking' services, does that recover the PIN?
>
> Very wary as if they damage the data the family would be stuffed. I am planning to ask the bobbies if they have an approved 'unlocker', and to check that what I am contemplating is legal
>
> Anyone had anything similar? Any suggestions?
>
> Cheers
>
> Mike
Wouldn't have thought ANY of the unlocking shops , knowing the SIM
number or anything like that would work. What you you seem to want to
do is get her password and thus access her phone all the unlocking will
do is mean you aren't tied to a specific company .
This seems way illegal to me if she doesn't give you direct access
(which she can't do) (IANAL SHPOS)

There is no way (never say never) of getting the information from a
mobile without knowing the password, pattern or WHY that is used to seal
the phone.
Cf. All the crap Apple went through with the FBI .

On 25/12/2022 10:55, soup wrote:

> Wouldn't have thought ANY of the unlocking shops , knowing the SIM
> number or anything like that would work. What you you seem to want to
> do is get her password and thus access her phone all the unlocking will
> do is mean you aren't tied to a specific company .
> This seems way illegal to me if she doesn't give you direct access
> (which she can't do) (IANAL SHPOS)
>
As she is dead, the administers of her estate are acting as if they were
her, just as I did while I was sorting stuff out after my brother died.
I had full access to his bank and card accounts, and even received some
refunds from places where he had to pay in advance and hadn't used the
services. I used the refunds to pay off some of his debts...

There are at least two locks on a phone. One is set by the seller
(Released by the PUK), and may lock the phone to their network, often by
preventing you using another SIM in it. This is released by the PUK.

The one the OP is concerned about is the PIN controlled lock, which
allows the user to access the data and facilities on the phone. If I
lock my phone using a PIN, then as long as there is no network lock, I
can put a new SIM in and carry on using the phone, with the only
possible change being the phone number. I still need to use the same PIN
to unlock it to use it. The only record of the PIN is on the phone
itself, unless you write it down.

If you enter the wrong PIN too many times (3 is the common limit), there
is a Personal Unblocking Key, which can override the PIN lock. This code
is printed on the plastic card which you press the SIM out of to install
it, and is also held in your account details by the carrier, in case you
lose the it of plastic.

There is an option available on most phones to wipe all the data if you
enter an incorrect PIN too often, but few know about this facility and
even fewer use it. (It was used in an NCIS programme I watched recently
as a plot element.)

> There is no way (never say never) of getting the information from a
> mobile without knowing the password, pattern or WHY that is used to seal
> the phone.
> Cf. All the crap Apple went through with the FBI .

Hah! Apple are easy to crack. I can buy a program which will let me
unlock any Apple phone. Android, as the OS is open source and based on
the Linux kernel, are actually harder to crack, as any security holes
tend to be quickly found by "white hat" hackers, and the fix is then
included in the next update.

IIRC, it was Norton who cracked the Apple phone security on behalf of
the FBI, but only because Apple refused to tell them how to get in.
Apple now offer a $2 million reward if you crack their security on their
new OS and tell them how you did it.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 25/12/2022 10:14, greymaus wrote:
> On 2022-12-24, Mike Smith <theothermikesmith@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Saturday, 24 December 2022 at 12:38:30 UTC, Brian Gaff wrote:
>>> This must happen a lot though, there is usually some way around these things
>>> using some trusted email account or secondary phone number.
>>> Of course it needs this sort of thing to be set up, Ahem.
>>> I can for example change my pin if I have the apple id and password, and
>>> even then it will send an email to an account with a verification code on
>>> it.
>>> Brian
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> --:
>>> This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
>>> The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
>>> bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
>>> Blind user, so no pictures please
>>> Note this Signature is meaningless.!
>>> "Tim+" <tim.d...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1989035533.693561489.943...@news.individual.net...
>>>> Mike Smith <theother...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Friend has died, her life was on her phone, her family need access to the
>>>>> phone but the one thing she does not seem to have written down is her
>>>>> PIN.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are shops offering 'unlocking' services, does that recover the PIN?
>>>>
>>>> No.
>>>>
>>>>> Very wary as if they damage the data the family would be stuffed. I am
>>>>> planning to ask the bobbies if they have an approved 'unlocker', and to
>>>>> check that what I am contemplating is legal
>>>>
>>>> Even after death I suspect that unless a crime is suspected, what you're
>>>> trying to do would be illegal.
>>>>
>>>> Tim
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Please don't feed the trolls
>>
>>
>> Thanks team - Hope this appears (summat seems to be up with Gargle Gropes at the moment).
>>
>> Best wishes to all for Xmas/Yule/winter solstice/Hanukkah/whatever the lizard people from Planet Nine call it.
>>
>> Mike
>
> kwazza?
>
> Anyone having a saturnalia this year?
>
> Anyone define where in the four gospels it is defined that the birth of
> the Lord is in December, or that a family from Galilee would have to
> travel to Judea?.

No, and yes.

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

On 2022-12-25, RustyHinge <rusty.hinge@foobar.girolle.co.uk> wrote:
> On 25/12/2022 10:14, greymaus wrote:
>> On 2022-12-24, Mike Smith <theothermikesmith@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Saturday, 24 December 2022 at 12:38:30 UTC, Brian Gaff wrote:
>>>> This must happen a lot though, there is usually some way around these things
>>>> using some trusted email account or secondary phone number.
>> Anyone having a saturnalia this year?
>>
>> Anyone define where in the four gospels it is defined that the birth of
>> the Lord is in December, or that a family from Galilee would have to
>> travel to Judea?.
>
> No, and yes.
>

I used to attend my local historical society, but I gave it up because
their view of the intricasies of History was different than mine.

The recent relevations about the involvement of the CIA in JFK's
assasionation reminded me of the story that one of the Czar's was killed
by a member of the Cheka.

--
greymausg@mail.com

Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum, I smell the stench of an Influencer.
Where is our money gone, Dude?

In article <k0qr1rFc34qU1@mid.individual.net>, John Williamson
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> on Sun, 25 Dec 2022 at 11:38:33 awoke
Nicholas from his slumbers and wrote
>On 25/12/2022 10:55, soup wrote:
>
>> Wouldn't have thought ANY of the unlocking shops , knowing the SIM
>> number or anything like that would work. What you you seem to want to
>> do is get her password and thus access her phone all the unlocking will
>> do is mean you aren't tied to a specific company .
>> This seems way illegal to me if she doesn't give you direct access
>> (which she can't do) (IANAL SHPOS)
>>
>As she is dead, the administers of her estate are acting as if they were
>her, just as I did while I was sorting stuff out after my brother died.
>I had full access to his bank and card accounts, and even received some
>refunds from places where he had to pay in advance and hadn't used the
>services. I used the refunds to pay off some of his debts...
>
>There are at least two locks on a phone. One is set by the seller
>(Released by the PUK), and may lock the phone to their network, often by
>preventing you using another SIM in it. This is released by the PUK.
>
>The one the OP is concerned about is the PIN controlled lock, which
>allows the user to access the data and facilities on the phone. If I
>lock my phone using a PIN, then as long as there is no network lock, I
>can put a new SIM in and carry on using the phone, with the only
>possible change being the phone number. I still need to use the same PIN
>to unlock it to use it. The only record of the PIN is on the phone
>itself, unless you write it down.
>
>If you enter the wrong PIN too many times (3 is the common limit), there
>is a Personal Unblocking Key, which can override the PIN lock. This code
>is printed on the plastic card which you press the SIM out of to install
>it, and is also held in your account details by the carrier, in case you
>lose the it of plastic.
>
>There is an option available on most phones to wipe all the data if you
>enter an incorrect PIN too often, but few know about this facility and
>even fewer use it. (It was used in an NCIS programme I watched recently
>as a plot element.)

With most SIMs, if not all, entering the SIM cards pin incorrectly 3
times will lock the SIM, but AFAIK will not have any effect on the data
held on the phone. Entering the PUK incorrectly a certain number of
times (10 times with my EE card) will render the SIM permanently
unusable and a new one will have to be purchased. The SIM can contain a
small number of contact phone numbers, which would then be lost, however
the data on the phone will be untouched.

The telephones PIN will have a limit on the incorrect entry of the
telephone's PIN (10 in the case of my Blackberry). In the case of my
Blackberry, exceed that number of incorrect entries will automatically
cause the phone to security wipe itself; this is not an optional
feature.

Before giving up a phone for recycling or to give it a re-loved status
with a friend, a security wipe of the data on the phone is strongly to
be advised.
>
>> There is no way (never say never) of getting the information from a
>> mobile without knowing the password, pattern or WHY that is used to seal
>> the phone.
>> Cf. All the crap Apple went through with the FBI .
>
>Hah! Apple are easy to crack. I can buy a program which will let me
>unlock any Apple phone. Android, as the OS is open source and based on
>the Linux kernel, are actually harder to crack, as any security holes
>tend to be quickly found by "white hat" hackers, and the fix is then
>included in the next update.
>
>IIRC, it was Norton who cracked the Apple phone security on behalf of
>the FBI, but only because Apple refused to tell them how to get in.
>Apple now offer a $2 million reward if you crack their security on their
>new OS and tell them how you did it.
>
>

--
0sterc@tcher -

"Où sont les neiges d'antan?"

On 25/12/2022 10:14, greymaus wrote:

> Anyone define where in the four gospels it is defined that the birth of
> the Lord is in December,

I seem to remember seeing an argument that it could NOT have been
December as the only time shepherds (in that area) would be watching
their flocks would be at lambing time (in the spring). Can't remember
the intricacies but I remember thinking "mmm seems plausible".

More evidence for early Christian 'hi-jacking' an existing festival
(Saturnalia) and making it about them?

Full disclosure:- I am (nominally) CofS.
But am very much agnostic, even bordering on the atheist.

In message <to9q8l$2pf53$1@dont-email.me>, soup <invalid@invalid.com>
writes
>On 25/12/2022 10:14, greymaus wrote:
>
>> Anyone define where in the four gospels it is defined that the birth of
>> the Lord is in December,
>
>I seem to remember seeing an argument that it could NOT have been
>December as the only time shepherds (in that area) would be watching
>their flocks would be at lambing time (in the spring). Can't remember
>the intricacies but I remember thinking "mmm seems plausible".
>
> More evidence for early Christian 'hi-jacking' an existing festival
>(Saturnalia) and making it about them?
>
>Full disclosure:- I am (nominally) CofS.
>But am very much agnostic, even bordering on the atheist.
>

I've read el swear that September (7BC) is the likeliest. The
temperatures would have been about right for sitting on hillsides
overnight, and Chinese astronomical records show a comet appearing in
the right sort of place (the bright star) at that time.

As I don't "do" religion, it is only of academic interest.

echo $SEASONS_GREETING

Adrian
--
To Reply :
replace "bulleid" with "adrian" - all mail to bulleid is rejected
Sorry for the rigmarole, If I want spam, I'll go to the shops
Every time someone says "I don't believe in trolls", another one dies.

On 25-Dec-22 15:29, soup wrote:
> On 25/12/2022 10:14, greymaus wrote:
>
>> Anyone define where in the four gospels it is defined that the birth of
>> the Lord is in December,
>
> I seem to remember seeing an argument that it could NOT have been
> December as the only time shepherds (in that area) would be watching
> their flocks would be at lambing time (in the spring).  Can't remember
> the intricacies but I remember thinking "mmm seems plausible".
>
>   More evidence for early Christian 'hi-jacking' an existing festival
> (Saturnalia) and making it about them?

It has been said, for many years, that the date was nicked from the cult
of Mithras - who was born on the 25th of December.
But there seems now to be no reliable basis for the claim that _any_
particular calendar date was given for his birth, so...

I think there are a number of parallels between early Christianity and
the cult of Mithras, but this seems not to be one.

--
Sam Plusnet

On 25/12/2022 15:29, soup wrote:
> On 25/12/2022 10:14, greymaus wrote:
>
>> Anyone define where in the four gospels it is defined that the birth of
>> the Lord is in December,
>
> I seem to remember seeing an argument that it could NOT have been
> December as the only time shepherds (in that area) would be watching
> their flocks would be at lambing time (in the spring).  Can't remember
> the intricacies but I remember thinking "mmm seems plausible".
>
>   More evidence for early Christian 'hi-jacking' an existing festival
> (Saturnalia) and making it about them?

The Romans had been doing that sort of thing for centuries - invade a
place and keep their festivals and celebrations, just rebrand them.
Apparently the first mention of Christmas Day being the 25th December
was apparently in a Roman calendar from 336AD, and by that time there
had been a merger between Christianity and the Roman Empire.

As for shepherds watching their flocks, I would have thought that would
depend on whether they were grazing in fenced or open land, whether
there were multiple flocks (presumably there were, as the angel came to
several shepherds at the same time), and whether there were any sheep
rustlers operating in the vicinity. What applies in the modern day would
not necessarily be applicable then.