On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 03:21:49 +0100
Tone <tone@email.com> wrote:

> I grant you that lorries on local deliveries and lightish loads might be
> economical as battery powered vehicles, but long distance 44 tonne
> vehicles, that may be required to do several drops during the day? With
> the lack of power points at motorway service stations and the time it
> would take to recharge them.

Hmm - a few people seem to think otherwise:

<https://www.daf.co.uk/en-gb/trucks/alternative-fuels-and-drivelines/battery-electric-vehicles>
<https://www.volvotrucks.com/en-en/trucks/renewable-fuels/electric-trucks.html>
<https://www.scania.com/group/en/home/products-and-services/trucks/battery-electric-truck.html>

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

On 26/06/2023 09:09, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 03:21:49 +0100
> Tone <tone@email.com> wrote:
>
>> I grant you that lorries on local deliveries and lightish loads might be
>> economical as battery powered vehicles, but long distance 44 tonne
>> vehicles, that may be required to do several drops during the day? With
>> the lack of power points at motorway service stations and the time it
>> would take to recharge them.
>
> Hmm - a few people seem to think otherwise:
>
> <https://www.daf.co.uk/en-gb/trucks/alternative-fuels-and-drivelines/battery-electric-vehicles>
> <https://www.volvotrucks.com/en-en/trucks/renewable-fuels/electric-trucks.html>
> <https://www.scania.com/group/en/home/products-and-services/trucks/battery-electric-truck.html>
>

4 hours duration at 44 tonnes? That is going to require one hell of lot
of charging points to keep the amount of long distance haulage I see
every day going on batteries.

Don't think it's been thought through properly.

Tone

On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 12:33:07 +0100
Tone <tone@email.com> wrote:

> On 26/06/2023 09:09, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 03:21:49 +0100

> > <https://www.daf.co.uk/en-gb/trucks/alternative-fuels-and-drivelines/battery-electric-vehicles>
> > <https://www.volvotrucks.com/en-en/trucks/renewable-fuels/electric-trucks.html>
> > <https://www.scania.com/group/en/home/products-and-services/trucks/battery-electric-truck.html>
> >
>
> 4 hours duration at 44 tonnes? That is going to require one hell of lot
> of charging points to keep the amount of long distance haulage I see
> every day going on batteries.

There's a whole bunch of companies providing fleet charging, it's
early days and there's a lot of mergers and going bust to go but it's a
fast growing business segment already.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

Ahem A Rivet's Shot said:
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 12:33:07 +0100
> Tone <tone@email.com> wrote:
>
>> On 26/06/2023 09:09, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> > On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 03:21:49 +0100
>
>> > <https://www.daf.co.uk/en-gb/trucks/alternative-fuels-and-drivelines/battery-electric-vehicles>
>> > <https://www.volvotrucks.com/en-en/trucks/renewable-fuels/electric-trucks.html>
>> > <https://www.scania.com/group/en/home/products-and-services/trucks/battery-electric-truck.html>
>> >
>>
>> 4 hours duration at 44 tonnes? That is going to require one hell of lot
>> of charging points to keep the amount of long distance haulage I see
>> every day going on batteries.
>
> There's a whole bunch of companies providing fleet charging, it's
> early days and there's a lot of mergers and going bust to go but it's a
> fast growing business segment already.

Could batteries be made swappable ? Hoick the old one out and stick in a
ready-charged replacement ?

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

On 26/06/2023 13:59, Richard Robinson wrote:

> Could batteries be made swappable ? Hoick the old one out and stick in a
> ready-charged replacement ?
>
>
That has been tried, but you'd need all the makers to settle on a
standard design and a standard way of billing owners for the amount of
energy used. Batteries would have to be leased, not owned. One of
London's earliest mechanically propelled bus services used electric
buses, with battery packs that could be swapped at the depot in a few
minutes. That was in 1907...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_bus

One problem is that most car makers use the battery holder as a
structural member, which makes the cars lighter and cheaper than having
to build a chassis to hold the weight of a removable battery pack.

There was a trial with cars in China a year or two ago, apparently.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/inside-chinas-electric-drive-swappable-car-batteries-2022-03-24/

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Richard Robinson wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot said:
>> On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 12:33:07 +0100
>> Tone <tone@email.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 26/06/2023 09:09, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> > On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 03:21:49 +0100
>>
>>> > <https://www.daf.co.uk/en-gb/trucks/alternative-fuels-and-drivelines/battery-electric-vehicles>
>>> > <https://www.volvotrucks.com/en-en/trucks/renewable-fuels/electric-trucks.html>
>>> > <https://www.scania.com/group/en/home/products-and-services/trucks/battery-electric-truck.html>
>>> >
>>>
>>> 4 hours duration at 44 tonnes? That is going to require one hell of lot
>>> of charging points to keep the amount of long distance haulage I see
>>> every day going on batteries.
>>
>> There's a whole bunch of companies providing fleet charging, it's
>> early days and there's a lot of mergers and going bust to go but it's a
>> fast growing business segment already.
>
> Could batteries be made swappable ? Hoick the old one out and stick in a
> ready-charged replacement ?

Can you imagine the Everest sized piles of batteries that would be required
to get a 44 tonner from say, Bristol to Edinburgh? Initially, when I heard
they were trying it out with cars in Norway and elsewhere it sounded like a
good idea until I stopped and worked out the number of batteries and the
mountain of Lithium it would need.

Recharging means one set of batteries per car in the country - with a small
total surplus to allow for the batteries failing completely every three
years or so. I think that even that is never going to be practical for
long runs.

However, exchanging batteries (only feasible currently by trained
professionals with full fitting kit and specialist premises) would take
two sets for a round trip from here to north Wales, say, unless it was
after dark (headlights) on a very cold (heater flat out) rainy day (wipers
flat out), in which case it might be three sets of batteries - or even four
sets with traffic jams (normal on that trip). On a hot day with the aircon
flat out it would be similar. Add many more service stations to allow for
not everyone using the same route and running out at different times.
Multiply by the number of cars making similar trips on the same day and
there is a remote chance of the UK sinking under the weight of batteries.
That's without thousands of caravan towers on Bank Holidays.

--
Bob
Tetbury, Gloucestershire, England

The shinbone is a device for finding furniture in a dark room.

On 2023-06-26, Richard Robinson <richard@qualmograph.org.uk> wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot said:
>> On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 12:33:07 +0100
>> Tone <tone@email.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 26/06/2023 09:09, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> > On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 03:21:49 +0100
>>
>>> > <https://www.daf.co.uk/en-gb/trucks/alternative-fuels-and-drivelines/battery-electric-vehicles>
>>> > <https://www.volvotrucks.com/en-en/trucks/renewable-fuels/electric-trucks.html>
>>> > <https://www.scania.com/group/en/home/products-and-services/trucks/battery-electric-truck.html>
>>> >
>>>
>>> 4 hours duration at 44 tonnes? That is going to require one hell of lot
>>> of charging points to keep the amount of long distance haulage I see
>>> every day going on batteries.
>>
>> There's a whole bunch of companies providing fleet charging, it's
>> early days and there's a lot of mergers and going bust to go but it's a
>> fast growing business segment already.
>
> Could batteries be made swappable ? Hoick the old one out and stick in a
> ready-charged replacement ?
>
>

Takes a specialized tool, last time i checked. My garage has a place out
in the country that does that. Those batteries are HEAVY

--
greymausg@mail.com
Boris, The Once and Future P.M.
Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum, I smell the stench of Influencers

On 2023-06-26, John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On 26/06/2023 13:59, Richard Robinson wrote:
>
>> Could batteries be made swappable ? Hoick the old one out and stick in a
>> ready-charged replacement ?
>>
>>
> That has been tried, but you'd need all the makers to settle on a
> standard design and a standard way of billing owners for the amount of
> energy used. Batteries would have to be leased, not owned. One of
> London's earliest mechanically propelled bus services used electric
> buses, with battery packs that could be swapped at the depot in a few
> minutes. That was in 1907...
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_bus
>
> One problem is that most car makers use the battery holder as a
> structural member, which makes the cars lighter and cheaper than having
> to build a chassis to hold the weight of a removable battery pack.
>
> There was a trial with cars in China a year or two ago, apparently.
>
> https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/inside-chinas-electric-drive-swappable-car-batteries-2022-03-24/
>

Story recently about chinese scrapyards full of EV's being visible from
the moon.

--
greymausg@mail.com
Boris, The Once and Future P.M.
Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum, I smell the stench of Influencers

On 2023-06-26, Bob Henson <bob.henson@outlook.com> wrote:
> Richard Robinson wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot said:
>>> On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 12:33:07 +0100
>>> Tone <tone@email.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 26/06/2023 09:09, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>> > On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 03:21:49 +0100
>>>
>>>> > <https://www.daf.co.uk/en-gb/trucks/alternative-fuels-and-drivelines/battery-electric-vehicles>
>>>> > <https://www.volvotrucks.com/en-en/trucks/renewable-fuels/electric-trucks.html>
>>>> > <https://www.scania.com/group/en/home/products-and-services/trucks/battery-electric-truck.html>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> 4 hours duration at 44 tonnes? That is going to require one hell of lot
>>>> of charging points to keep the amount of long distance haulage I see
>>>> every day going on batteries.
>>>
> sets with traffic jams (normal on that trip). On a hot day with the aircon
> flat out it would be similar. Add many more service stations to allow for
> not everyone using the same route and running out at different times.
> Multiply by the number of cars making similar trips on the same day and
> there is a remote chance of the UK sinking under the weight of batteries.
> That's without thousands of caravan towers on Bank Holidays.

Story recently about tower parking places to be strenghtened to allow
for the extra weight of EV''s. What if the tower collapses and all the
stuff is dumped in a heap. Will a chain reaction start?
>
>

--
greymausg@mail.com
Boris, The Once and Future P.M.
Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum, I smell the stench of Influencers

John Williamson said:
> On 26/06/2023 13:59, Richard Robinson wrote:
>
>> Could batteries be made swappable ? Hoick the old one out and stick in a
>> ready-charged replacement ?
>>
>>
> That has been tried, but you'd need all the makers to settle on a
> standard design and a standard way of billing owners for the amount of
> energy used. Batteries would have to be leased, not owned.

Standard design, yes. Billing would be per KwH ? Do them on a returnable
deposit, like Calorgas cylinders.

> One problem is that most car makers use the battery holder as a
> structural member, which makes the cars lighter and cheaper than having
> to build a chassis to hold the weight of a removable battery pack.

So there'd be resistance to the idea of standardising on a jbexable
design, then ...

> https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/inside-chinas-electric-drive-swappable-car-batteries-2022-03-24/

"Then how do you differentiate your product?"

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

maus wrote:

> On 2023-06-26, Bob Henson <bob.henson@outlook.com> wrote:
>> Richard Robinson wrote:
>>
>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot said:
>>>> On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 12:33:07 +0100
>>>> Tone <tone@email.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 26/06/2023 09:09, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>>> > On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 03:21:49 +0100
>>>>
>>>>> > <https://www.daf.co.uk/en-gb/trucks/alternative-fuels-and-drivelines/battery-electric-vehicles>
>>>>> > <https://www.volvotrucks.com/en-en/trucks/renewable-fuels/electric-trucks.html>
>>>>> > <https://www.scania.com/group/en/home/products-and-services/trucks/battery-electric-truck.html>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> 4 hours duration at 44 tonnes? That is going to require one hell of lot
>>>>> of charging points to keep the amount of long distance haulage I see
>>>>> every day going on batteries.
>>>>
>> sets with traffic jams (normal on that trip). On a hot day with the aircon
>> flat out it would be similar. Add many more service stations to allow for
>> not everyone using the same route and running out at different times.
>> Multiply by the number of cars making similar trips on the same day and
>> there is a remote chance of the UK sinking under the weight of batteries.
>> That's without thousands of caravan towers on Bank Holidays.
>
> Story recently about tower parking places to be strenghtened to allow
> for the extra weight of EV''s. What if the tower collapses and all the
> stuff is dumped in a heap. Will a chain reaction start?

I don't know about car parks, but it's already known that they damage the
roads more than other vehicles and leave much more rubber on the road
surfaces. How the eco-warriors explain that one away when the tyres are
made from oil and toxic chemicals and it gets washed down into the rivers
and seas will make interesting reading. Greta the Gnome will have a hissy
fit if/when she realises - although she doesn't usually let the truth get
in the way of a good rabble-rousing session.

--
Bob
Tetbury, Gloucestershire, England

Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future. - Niels Bohr

On 26/06/2023 15:41, Richard Robinson wrote:
> John Williamson said:
>> That has been tried, but you'd need all the makers to settle on a
>> standard design and a standard way of billing owners for the amount of
>> energy used. Batteries would have to be leased, not owned.
>
> Standard design, yes. Billing would be per KwH ? Do them on a returnable
> deposit, like Calorgas cylinders.
>
LPG cylinders have an almost unlimited life, so a returnable deposit
makes sense, though if you look closely at the Calor system, you will
find that, in effect, you are buying the unit,as the returnable amount
rapidly drops to the scrap value. EV batteries have a limited calendar
and cycle life, so a lease deal is the way to go, with a charge per
cycle plus the energy used.

It also makes it trivially easy for the Gibberment to take their slice,
as they do with fossil fuels, especially if the vehicle can't be charged
by the user.

>> One problem is that most car makers use the battery holder as a
>> structural member, which makes the cars lighter and cheaper than having
>> to build a chassis to hold the weight of a removable battery pack.
>
> So there'd be resistance to the idea of standardising on a jbexable
> design, then ...
>
Yup. Quite a lot of it.

>
>> https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/inside-chinas-electric-drive-swappable-car-batteries-2022-03-24/
>
> "Then how do you differentiate your product?"
>
Yes, but if makers get together on the battery pack design, there is
plenty of room for customisation inside the saloon and in body shape.
After all, there are many groups of makers who use common parts such as
the engine and gearbox. Go back to when I started driving, and every
make of car used the same lights. The modern trend for the lights to be
a copyrighted part of the bodywork and for the electronics to be potted
in maker specific housings has a lot to do with the makers wanting to
control who can sell spares for the cars they make, and once they scrap
the mould, all cars of that type are on borrowed time. A £2.00 one off
chip design fails, and the cars are scrap once the stock of that ECU
runs out. (The chip went out of production long ago, and is a
multifunction design, which can't be replaced by any sensible more
modern item or combination of them). I can buy parts off the shelf for
my 54 year old Land Rover which are no longer available at any price for
much newer vehicles, unless you can find one hiding in a corenr at the
local scrapyard.

The battery is X by Y by Z metres, with standard mounting positions, and
provides V volts at up to I amps at a standard connector position, with
a connection to allow the car computer to monitor the condition and
state of charge. What you do with the power is up to you, and the only
limits on the chassis design are the size and weight of the pack. Even
refinements such as active suspension are trivial to add. How many
motors do you want? For the vast majority of users, that's plenty of
variation, and if you want to go faster than the standard battery can
handle, then you pay the premium and put up with the inconvenience of
having to charge your special one between trips. If battery chemistry
changes, then the replacement can be made to fit in the same box, and
just swap into the older chassis. The only change that may need to be
made is to the charging system. It's even easier on lorries and vans, as
they already use pretty standard base designs, as they have to
accommodate the pallet or containers, which are standard worldwide.

Local van deliveries in UK towns and cities are all being converted to
100% electric vehicles as the vans come up for routine replacement. Run
round all day, then charge overnight on cheap electricity.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Bob Henson said:
> Richard Robinson wrote:
>
>> Could batteries be made swappable ? Hoick the old one out and stick in a
>> ready-charged replacement ?
>
> Can you imagine the Everest sized piles of batteries that would be required
> to get a 44 tonner from say, Bristol to Edinburgh? Initially, when I heard

No, not really. I'm not sure I have much idea of underground reservoirs
of petrol and diesel, either. Lots of travel being done, much support
infrastructure required, either way.

> they were trying it out with cars in Norway and elsewhere it sounded like a
> good idea until I stopped and worked out the number of batteries and the
> mountain of Lithium it would need.

But presumably the people trying it would have done the same sums and
gone ahead ?

> Recharging means one set of batteries per car in the country - with a small
> total surplus to allow for the batteries failing completely every three
> years or so. I think that even that is never going to be practical for
> long runs.

Point, maybe, I don't know. There are various problematical aspects of
current batteries. [Ho ho. Sorry]

> However, exchanging batteries (only feasible currently by trained
> professionals with full fitting kit and specialist premises) would take
> two sets for a round trip from here to north Wales, say, unless it was
> after dark (headlights) on a very cold (heater flat out) rainy day (wipers
> flat out), in which case it might be three sets of batteries - or even four
> sets with traffic jams (normal on that trip). On a hot day with the aircon
> flat out it would be similar. Add many more service stations to allow for
> not everyone using the same route and running out at different times.
> Multiply by the number of cars making similar trips on the same day and
> there is a remote chance of the UK sinking under the weight of batteries.
> That's without thousands of caravan towers on Bank Holidays.

Well yes, these things need power, and would need to stop for more
before they run out, either by swapping in a different barged chattery
or by filling up the existing empty one.

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 12:59:25 -0000 (UTC)
Richard Robinson <richard@qualmograph.org.uk> wrote:

> Could batteries be made swappable ? Hoick the old one out and stick in a
> ready-charged replacement ?

Why bother when high speed chargers can charge to 80% in 15
minutes ?

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 16:14:11 +0100
Bob Henson <bob.henson@outlook.com> wrote:

> I don't know about car parks, but it's already known that they damage the
> roads more than other vehicles and leave much more rubber on the road
> surfaces. How the eco-warriors explain that one away when the tyres are
> made from oil and toxic chemicals and it gets washed down into the rivers
> and seas will make interesting reading. Greta the Gnome will have a hissy
> fit if/when she realises - although she doesn't usually let the truth get
> in the way of a good rabble-rousing session.

Two simple questions:

What do you think we should do about the fossil fuels running out ?

When should we start ?

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

On 26/06/2023 15:19, maus wrote:
> On 2023-06-26, John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On 26/06/2023 13:59, Richard Robinson wrote:
>>
>>> Could batteries be made swappable ? Hoick the old one out and stick in a
>>> ready-charged replacement ?
>>>
>>>
>> That has been tried, but you'd need all the makers to settle on a
>> standard design and a standard way of billing owners for the amount of
>> energy used. Batteries would have to be leased, not owned. One of
>> London's earliest mechanically propelled bus services used electric
>> buses, with battery packs that could be swapped at the depot in a few
>> minutes. That was in 1907...
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_bus
>>
>> One problem is that most car makers use the battery holder as a
>> structural member, which makes the cars lighter and cheaper than having
>> to build a chassis to hold the weight of a removable battery pack.
>>
>> There was a trial with cars in China a year or two ago, apparently.
>>
>> https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/inside-chinas-electric-drive-swappable-car-batteries-2022-03-24/
>>
>
> Story recently about chinese scrapyards full of EV's being visible from
> the moon.

Visible from the moon huh?

What lunatic reported that?

(yes, that was word-play)

On 26/06/2023 16:32, John Williamson wrote:
> On 26/06/2023 15:41, Richard Robinson wrote:
>> John Williamson said:
>>> That has been tried, but you'd need all the makers to settle on a
>>> standard design and a standard way of billing owners for the amount of
>>> energy used. Batteries would have to be leased, not owned.
>>
>> Standard design, yes. Billing would be per KwH ? Do them on a returnable
>> deposit, like Calorgas cylinders.
>>
> LPG cylinders have an almost unlimited life, so a returnable deposit
> makes sense, though if you look closely at the Calor system, you will
> find that, in effect, you are buying the unit,as the returnable amount
> rapidly drops to the scrap value.

Illustrated by Calor introducing their Calor Lite (or whatever it was
called) bottles made of fibreglass & not steel.
The new bottles didn't last too long before they had to be scrapped.
Hence the investment in each bottle wasn't returning the sort of profits
they wanted.

On 2023-06-26, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 16:14:11 +0100
> Bob Henson <bob.henson@outlook.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't know about car parks, but it's already known that they damage the
>> roads more than other vehicles and leave much more rubber on the road
>> surfaces. How the eco-warriors explain that one away when the tyres are
>> made from oil and toxic chemicals and it gets washed down into the rivers
>> and seas will make interesting reading. Greta the Gnome will have a hissy
>> fit if/when she realises - although she doesn't usually let the truth get
>> in the way of a good rabble-rousing session.
>
> Two simple questions:
>
> What do you think we should do about the fossil fuels running out ?
>
> When should we start ?
>

I have a suggestion. Take a long term view, and buy horses, There is the
Cahermee horse fair in Co. Cork, Borris horse fair in Carlow, or
Ballinasloe in Galway, buy workmares and work stallions.

(There is a big horse fair in Westmorland soon, I think). When fossil
fuels run out, in about one hundred years, you will be perfectly
positioned to profit.

Clydesdales are the ones with hairy legs, which have to be cleaned in
the evenings after work.

--
greymausg@mail.com
Boris, The Once and Future P.M.
Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum, I smell the stench of Influencers

On 26/06/2023 21:38, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 26/06/2023 15:19, maus wrote:
>>
>> Story recently about chinese scrapyards full  of EV's being visible from
>> the moon.
>
> Visible from the moon huh?
>
> What lunatic reported that?
>
> (yes, that was word-play)

It's one of maus's "stories". Possibly told to him by the voices.

On 26/06/2023 14:18, John Williamson wrote:
> On 26/06/2023 13:59, Richard Robinson wrote:
>
>> Could batteries be made swappable ? Hoick the old one out and stick in a
>> ready-charged replacement ?
>>
> That has been tried, but you'd need all the makers to settle on a
> standard design and a standard way of billing owners for the amount of
> energy used. Batteries would have to be leased, not owned. One of
> London's earliest mechanically propelled bus services used electric
> buses, with battery packs that could be swapped at the depot in a few
> minutes. That was in 1907...

There are mopeds and scooters with exchangeable battery packs, and some
motorcycles too.

https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/electric-motorbike-swappable-batteries/

These do have less structural issues than lorries, but it's a start.

On 26 Jun 2023 21:07:43 GMT
maus <maus@darkstar.org> wrote:

> On 2023-06-26, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> > Two simple questions:
> >
> > What do you think we should do about the fossil fuels running
> > out ?
> >
> > When should we start ?
> >
>
> I have a suggestion. Take a long term view, and buy horses, There is the
> Cahermee horse fair in Co. Cork, Borris horse fair in Carlow, or
> Ballinasloe in Galway, buy workmares and work stallions.

If I wanted to buy a horse I could go to the horse fair in
Ballyduff which is just down the road but I'd be more likely to talk to Dan
at Clonshire or maybe see if Owen's still in business up in Maynooth. Then
I'd have to buy land to keep them on and pay people to look after them
and ... Horses make cars look cheap.

Going backwards is always a mistake, the past cannot be reached.

> (There is a big horse fair in Westmorland soon, I think). When fossil
> fuels run out, in about one hundred years, you will be perfectly
> positioned to profit.

Sure we could opt for going back to pre-industrial technology. We
could probably support a global population of two billion if we tightened
our belts and accepted a reduced lifespan due to decades of back breaking
drudgery and minimal medical support.

To my view that is not an acceptable option, even ignoring the
bloodbath that getting from here to there would involve. That's not the
future I want for my children - even if they're in the two billion and not
the dieback.

How about we start working on alternative sources of energy and
means of storing it for portable use, start using them as soon as
they're viable for some uses and work on improving them to cover more
uses ? It doesn't have to be as convenient as oil it just has to be good
enough to keep an industrial civilisation that can support ten billion or
so in some degree of comfort.

Oh look that's what's happening - it took fear of climate change to
make it happen instead of simple common sense but at least it is happening
and probably in time.

Are we ready to ditch oil today - HELL NO.

Will we be ready before it runs out - very probably as long as we
keep working at it. Between wind, solar, nuclear, lithium batteries and flow
batteries we appear to have the wherewithal to get off oil and even some
choice about how to go about it.

Will it save the climate - I haven't a clue and I don't care
because if we don't get off oil the climate will be the least of our
problems.

> Clydesdales are the ones with hairy legs, which have to be cleaned in
> the evenings after work.

They're oversized Cobs with a fancy name.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

Sam Plusnet wrote:

> maus wrote:
>
>> Story recently about chinese scrapyards full  of EV's being visible from
>> the moon.
>
> Visible from the moon huh?

The man in the moon might still need a telescope to spot 10,000 cars in
a field

<https://youtu.be/1SEfwoqKRU8>

apparently molishing them, registering them and then parking them up is
a "good" way to pump the sales figures for your ponzi scheme ...

Mr Serpent.za has axes to grind with PRC, but I think the fields full of
eclectic cars and bikes do exist.

On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 16:14:11 +0100
Bob Henson <bob.henson@outlook.com> wrote:

> How the eco-warriors explain that one away when the tyres are
> made from oil and toxic chemicals and it gets washed down into the rivers
> and seas will make interesting reading.

One problem at a time. When I was a child the most pressing
pollution problem was the smog from coal fires choking our lungs, next it
was the lead in the car exhaust poisoning our brains. Step by step the
world gets cleaner, always tackling the worst problem first. The car tyres
will get their turn and postgrads will be writing papers on possible
solutions in due course.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

Richard Robinson wrote:

> Could batteries be made swappable ? Hoick the old one out and stick in a
> ready-charged replacement ?

Initially eTlsa cars were designed with swappable flatteries, they
"demonstrated" this took under 2 minutes on stage exactly once, except
it was hidden behind a curtain.

They introduced a battery swap station (inconveniently far from both San
Francisco and Los Angeles) you'd probably use up half the capacity of
the newly-swapped battery just getting home again ... they quietly
withdrew the option and newer cars ain't built to be swappable.

OTOH, I gather some electric taxis in China and rickshaws in India do
swap batteries.

Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> Richard Robinson wrote:
>
>> Could batteries be made swappable ? Hoick the old one out and stick in a
>> ready-charged replacement ?
>
> Why bother when high speed chargers can charge to 80% in 15
> minutes ?

Queueues?