I put this here so Mark Carver will see it. We've previously discussed
the long arrrse issue.
On the BBC News channel just now the newsreader (Ben Brown) used the
word 'aftermath'. He's an extreme southerner, being from Kent. (That's
where they call each other silly kents.)
Anyway, he used a short 'a' at the start of the word and a long 'a' near
the end. Aftermaaaarth. I would have expected Aaaaaaaftermaaaarth. Do I
misunderstand the southerners' use of the long 'a'?

Bill

On 16/05/2021 09:41, williamwright wrote:
> I put this here so Mark Carver will see it. We've previously discussed
> the long arrrse issue.
> On the BBC News channel just now the newsreader (Ben Brown) used the
> word 'aftermath'. He's an extreme southerner, being from Kent. (That's
> where they call each other silly kents.)
> Anyway, he used a short 'a' at the start of the word and a long 'a' near
> the end. Aftermaaaarth. I would have expected Aaaaaaaftermaaaarth. Do I
> misunderstand the southerners' use of the long 'a'?
>

He may just have been trying to keep his job in the face of the BBC's
reverse accentism.

I can't compete with a public school educated BBC presenter but as a
Southerner (born/schooled in Essex/Kent) I'd say (sic) a long second "a"
was wrong (unless going for a Sandhurst drawl.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 16/05/2021 11:34, Robin wrote:
> On 16/05/2021 09:41, williamwright wrote:
>> I put this here so Mark Carver will see it. We've previously discussed
>> the long arrrse issue.
>> On the BBC News channel just now the newsreader (Ben Brown) used the
>> word 'aftermath'. He's an extreme southerner, being from Kent. (That's
>> where they call each other silly kents.)
>> Anyway, he used a short 'a' at the start of the word and a long 'a' near
>> the end. Aftermaaaarth. I would have expected Aaaaaaaftermaaaarth. Do I
>> misunderstand the southerners' use of the long 'a'?
>>
>
> He may just have been trying to keep his job in the face of the BBC's
> reverse accentism.
>
> I can't compete with a public school educated BBC presenter but as a
> Southerner (born/schooled in Essex/Kent) I'd say (sic) a long second "a"
> was wrong (unless going for a Sandhurst drawl.

As an ex-Cockney, I would have pronounced it Aaaaaaaftermath with the
first Aaaaaaa rhyming with path and the second A as in cat.

Jim

On 16/05/2021 09:41, williamwright wrote:
> I put this here so Mark Carver will see it. We've previously discussed
> the long arrrse issue.
> On the BBC News channel just now the newsreader (Ben Brown) used the
> word 'aftermath'. He's an extreme southerner, being from Kent. (That's
> where they call each other silly kents.)
> Anyway, he used a short 'a' at the start of the word and a long 'a'
> near the end. Aftermaaaarth. I would have expected
> Aaaaaaaftermaaaarth. Do I misunderstand the southerners' use of the
> long 'a'?
Ben Brown started his broadcasting career at Liverpool's Radio City, so
working up there must have corrupted him ?

On 16/05/2021 11:58, Indy Jess John wrote:
>
> On 16/05/2021 11:34, Robin wrote:
>>
>> On 16/05/2021 09:41, williamwright wrote:
>>>
>>> I put this here so Mark Carver will see it. We've previously discussed
>>> the long arrrse issue.
>>> On the BBC News channel just now the newsreader (Ben Brown) used the
>>> word 'aftermath'. He's an extreme southerner, being from Kent. (That's
>>> where they call each other silly kents.)
>>> Anyway, he used a short 'a' at the start of the word and a long 'a' near
>>> the end. Aftermaaaarth. I would have expected Aaaaaaaftermaaaarth. Do I
>>> misunderstand the southerners' use of the long 'a'?
>>
>> I can't compete with a public school educated BBC presenter but as a
>> Southerner (born/schooled in Essex/Kent) I'd say (sic) a long second "a"
>> was wrong (unless going for a Sandhurst drawl.
>
> As an ex-Cockney, I would have pronounced it Aaaaaaaftermath with the
> first Aaaaaaa rhyming with path and the second A as in cat.

FWIW, as someone who went to "good school" and was educated with "the
Queen's English", as well as being brought up on a farm and having an
agricultural diploma, I would say both should rhyme with path or hearth.
Originally aftermath was an agricultural term meaning literally "after
mowing" - that is to say it refers to the grass that regrows in a
paddock towards the end of the growing season after a hay, or now a
sileage, crop has been taken from it. Thus you hear something like:
"you could put the sheep into the riverside meadow to feed on the
aftermath".

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

Java Jive wrote:

> I would say both should rhyme with path or hearth.

path and hearth don't rhyme, as I say them.

On 16/05/2021 12:55, Andy Burns wrote:
> Java Jive wrote:
>
>> I would say both should rhyme with path or hearth.
>
> path and hearth don't rhyme, as I say them.

Which is why I added hearth for clarity, because many pronounce path,
bath, etc with a short a, as in Cathy.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 16/05/2021 13:14, Java Jive wrote:
> On 16/05/2021 12:55, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Java Jive wrote:
>>
>>> I would say both should rhyme with path or hearth.
>>
>> path and hearth don't rhyme, as I say them.
>
> Which is why I added hearth for clarity, because many pronounce path,
> bath, etc with a short a, as in Cathy.
>

The OED gives only the short "a" (as in "trap") for the /second/ a in
aftermath. It gives only a long "a:" (as in "father") for the /first/
"a" - and ditto for hearth. So on their model they do not rhyme.

For the first "a" in aftermath it gives both long and short.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 16/05/2021 13:56, Robin wrote:
> On 16/05/2021 13:14, Java Jive wrote:
>> On 16/05/2021 12:55, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Java Jive wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would say both should rhyme with path or hearth.
>>>
>>> path and hearth don't rhyme, as I say them.
>>
>> Which is why I added hearth for clarity, because many pronounce path,
>> bath, etc with a short a, as in Cathy.
>>
>
> The OED gives only the short "a" (as in "trap") for the /second/ a in
> aftermath. It gives only a long "a:" (as in "father") for the /first/
> "a" - and ditto for hearth.  So on their model they do not rhyme.
>
> For the first "a" in aftermath it gives both long and short.
>
>
>

Buggered-up cut and paste to reorganise. Should have been:

The OED gives only the short "a" (as in "trap") for the /second/ a in
"aftermath". For the first "a" it gives either the same for the first a
or the longer "a:" (as in "father"). Ditto the long "a:" for "hearth".
So on their model they do not rhyme.

Now who's got recordings of HM through the ages?

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 16/05/2021 12:04, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 16/05/2021 09:41, williamwright wrote:
>> I put this here so Mark Carver will see it. We've previously discussed
>> the long arrrse issue.
>> On the BBC News channel just now the newsreader (Ben Brown) used the
>> word 'aftermath'. He's an extreme southerner, being from Kent. (That's
>> where they call each other silly kents.)
>> Anyway, he used a short 'a' at the start of the word and a long 'a'
>> near the end. Aftermaaaarth. I would have expected
>> Aaaaaaaftermaaaarth. Do I misunderstand the southerners' use of the
>> long 'a'?
> Ben Brown started his broadcasting career at Liverpool's Radio City, so
> working up there must have corrupted him ?

He doesn't sound like John Lennon though!

Bill

On 16/05/2021 11:58 am, Indy Jess John wrote:
> On 16/05/2021 11:34, Robin wrote:
>> On 16/05/2021 09:41, williamwright wrote:
>>> I put this here so Mark Carver will see it. We've previously discussed
>>> the long arrrse issue.
>>> On the BBC News channel just now the newsreader (Ben Brown) used the
>>> word 'aftermath'. He's an extreme southerner, being from Kent. (That's
>>> where they call each other silly kents.)
>>> Anyway, he used a short 'a' at the start of the word and a long 'a' near
>>> the end. Aftermaaaarth. I would have expected Aaaaaaaftermaaaarth. Do I
>>> misunderstand the southerners' use of the long 'a'?
>>>
>>
>> He may just have been trying to keep his job in the face of the BBC's
>> reverse accentism.
>>
>> I can't compete with a public school educated BBC presenter but as a
>> Southerner (born/schooled in Essex/Kent) I'd say (sic) a long second "a"
>> was wrong (unless going for a Sandhurst drawl.
>
> As an ex-Cockney, I would have pronounced it Aaaaaaaftermath with the
> first Aaaaaaa rhyming with path and the second A as in cat.

I also would expect that (in Standard English and Received
Pronunciation), despite being a northerner.

I would, however say it with two iterations of the "flat A".

Despite half a lifetime down here, my speech still hasn't fully embraced
the long A.

On 16/05/2021 12:04 pm, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 16/05/2021 09:41, williamwright wrote:
>> I put this here so Mark Carver will see it. We've previously discussed
>> the long arrrse issue.
>> On the BBC News channel just now the newsreader (Ben Brown) used the
>> word 'aftermath'. He's an extreme southerner, being from Kent. (That's
>> where they call each other silly kents.)
>> Anyway, he used a short 'a' at the start of the word and a long 'a'
>> near the end. Aftermaaaarth. I would have expected
>> Aaaaaaaftermaaaarth. Do I misunderstand the southerners' use of the
>> long 'a'?
> Ben Brown started his broadcasting career at Liverpool's Radio City, so
> working up there must have corrupted him ?

Not with that as evidence.

On 16/05/2021 14:02, Robin wrote:
>
> The OED gives only the short "a" (as in "trap") for the /second/ a in
> "aftermath". For the first "a" it gives either the same for the first a
> or the longer "a:" (as in "father").  Ditto the long "a:" for "hearth".
>  So on their model they do not rhyme.
>
> Now who's got recordings of HM through the ages?

I hate to disagree with the OED, but I don't think I've ever actually
heard anyone say aftermath with a short second 'a'!

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> On 16/05/2021 14:02, Robin wrote:
>>
>> The OED gives only the short "a" (as in "trap") for the /second/ a in
>> "aftermath". For the first "a" it gives either the same for the first a
>> or the longer "a:" (as in "father").  Ditto the long "a:" for "hearth".
>>  So on their model they do not rhyme.
>>
>> Now who's got recordings of HM through the ages?
>
> I hate to disagree with the OED, but I don't think I've ever actually
> heard anyone say aftermath with a short second 'a'!
>

I’d pronounce it with both first and last a being short.
However I live in the Midlands around 5 miles north of the alleged
linguistic boundary between long and short, and it sometimes gets a bit
confusing round here.

On 16/05/2021 18:35, Java Jive wrote:
> On 16/05/2021 14:02, Robin wrote:
>>
>> The OED gives only the short "a" (as in "trap") for the /second/ a in
>> "aftermath". For the first "a" it gives either the same for the first
>> a or the longer "a:" (as in "father").  Ditto the long "a:" for
>> "hearth".   So on their model they do not rhyme.
>>
>> Now who's got recordings of HM through the ages?
>
> I hate to disagree with the OED, but I don't think I've ever actually
> heard anyone say aftermath with a short second 'a'!
>

Both are short, having been brought up in the Peak District.

Phil M

On 16/05/2021 18:35, Java Jive wrote:
> On 16/05/2021 14:02, Robin wrote:
>>
>> The OED gives only the short "a" (as in "trap") for the /second/ a in
>> "aftermath". For the first "a" it gives either the same for the first
>> a or the longer "a:" (as in "father").  Ditto the long "a:" for
>> "hearth".   So on their model they do not rhyme.
>>
>> Now who's got recordings of HM through the ages?
>
> I hate to disagree with the OED, but I don't think I've ever actually
> heard anyone say aftermath with a short second 'a'!
>

I make no special claims having been bred by a cockney mother and a
yokel father born in (but not educated at) Sutton Valence; and having
attended but state schools and a couple of minor colleges. But the
online OED has audio these days for many words for both the British and
US pronunciations so you can if you wish now hear it. The link has their
British ones (each repeated twice) for (a) aftermath [long/short], (b)
aftermath (short/short], and (c) hearth.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e8mkag33nyvuo5i/Aftermath.mp3?dl=0

Other variants are of course available and in circulation.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

In article <s7rn44$s3i$1@dont-email.me>, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>> I hate to disagree with the OED, but I don't think I've ever actually
>> heard anyone say aftermath with a short second 'a'!
>
>I’d pronounce it with both first and last a being short.
>However I live in the Midlands

Me too ... (both a's are short, Midlands). I think Eminem also
references "Shady Aftermath" with two short a's in a song somewhere!

I can't quite get used to Reeta Chakrabarti's pronunciation of "Plarrrrstic".

I wonder when the BBC will start to insist that it's pronounced
Marrrthermarrrtics :)

--
--------------------------------------+------------------------------------
Mike Brown: mjb[-at-]signal11.org.uk | http://www.signal11.org.uk

On 16/05/2021 22:11, Robin wrote:
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/e8mkag33nyvuo5i/Aftermath.mp3?dl=0

Fine, but it's not how I was taught to pronounce it!

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

What I object to is the kind of estewary and apparent rapper clipped English
many announcers now seem to use.
To me a lot of that sounds put on so as to sound down with the kids so to
speak.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
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Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Robin" <rbw@outlook.com> wrote in message
news:aa53c62c-346b-b983-c0ae-f339fef994fc@outlook.com...
> On 16/05/2021 09:41, williamwright wrote:
>> I put this here so Mark Carver will see it. We've previously discussed
>> the long arrrse issue.
>> On the BBC News channel just now the newsreader (Ben Brown) used the word
>> 'aftermath'. He's an extreme southerner, being from Kent. (That's where
>> they call each other silly kents.)
>> Anyway, he used a short 'a' at the start of the word and a long 'a' near
>> the end. Aftermaaaarth. I would have expected Aaaaaaaftermaaaarth. Do I
>> misunderstand the southerners' use of the long 'a'?
>>
>
> He may just have been trying to keep his job in the face of the BBC's
> reverse accentism.
>
> I can't compete with a public school educated BBC presenter but as a
> Southerner (born/schooled in Essex/Kent) I'd say (sic) a long second "a"
> was wrong (unless going for a Sandhurst drawl.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Robin
> reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Mon 17/05/2021 02:29, Java Jive wrote:
> On 16/05/2021 22:11, Robin wrote:
>>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/e8mkag33nyvuo5i/Aftermath.mp3?dl=0
>
> Fine, but it's not how I was taught to pronounce it!
>

To change the subject slightly, the one that really annoys me (#2) is
the way many educated and erudite presenters insist on pronouncing
castle as carsel/ Agghhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOw you need to listen to some of John Lennons funny spoken recordings that
one finds from time to time. I think he could change his accent to sound
completely unlike his Liverpool one we know.
I wish I could do that. Another good accent changer is Lulu. She seems able
to switch Scottish, ausiie, and different US accents on and off at will
when telling stories. Unfortunately, I seem unable to do that.
Brian

--

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briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"williamwright" <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:igcjldFttq2U1@mid.individual.net...
> On 16/05/2021 12:04, Mark Carver wrote:
>> On 16/05/2021 09:41, williamwright wrote:
>>> I put this here so Mark Carver will see it. We've previously discussed
>>> the long arrrse issue.
>>> On the BBC News channel just now the newsreader (Ben Brown) used the
>>> word 'aftermath'. He's an extreme southerner, being from Kent. (That's
>>> where they call each other silly kents.)
>>> Anyway, he used a short 'a' at the start of the word and a long 'a' near
>>> the end. Aftermaaaarth. I would have expected Aaaaaaaftermaaaarth. Do I
>>> misunderstand the southerners' use of the long 'a'?
>> Ben Brown started his broadcasting career at Liverpool's Radio City, so
>> working up there must have corrupted him ?
>
> He doesn't sound like John Lennon though!
>
> Bill

On 16/05/2021 18:35, Java Jive wrote:
> On 16/05/2021 14:02, Robin wrote:
>>
>> The OED gives only the short "a" (as in "trap") for the /second/ a in
>> "aftermath". For the first "a" it gives either the same for the first a
>> or the longer "a:" (as in "father").  Ditto the long "a:" for "hearth".
>>  So on their model they do not rhyme.
>>
>> Now who's got recordings of HM through the ages?
>
> I hate to disagree with the OED

I don't; it's far too opinionated for its own good.

--

Jeff

I get picked up all the time by the way I say Plastic, I say it like
Plarstic.
I am not sure where this comes from as my gran and my mother had Yorkshire
accents, and my dad was a cockney.

I can only assume it was at school.
Brian

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"williamwright" <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:igc45gFqvc8U1@mid.individual.net...
>I put this here so Mark Carver will see it. We've previously discussed the
>long arrrse issue.
> On the BBC News channel just now the newsreader (Ben Brown) used the word
> 'aftermath'. He's an extreme southerner, being from Kent. (That's where
> they call each other silly kents.)
> Anyway, he used a short 'a' at the start of the word and a long 'a' near
> the end. Aftermaaaarth. I would have expected Aaaaaaaftermaaaarth. Do I
> misunderstand the southerners' use of the long 'a'?
>
> Bill
>

In article <s7tag3$hh5$1@dont-email.me>, Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)
<briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> NOw you need to listen to some of John Lennons funny spoken recordings
> that one finds from time to time. I think he could change his accent to
> sound completely unlike his Liverpool one we know.

According to a programme on BBC2 on Saturday (Scottish Lochs), John Lennon
spent his summer holidays as a child in Durness (NW Scotland), wheer he was
known as "Jock", not "John". That might explain a second accent.

> I wish I could do
> that. Another good accent changer is Lulu. She seems able to switch
> Scottish, ausiie, and different US accents on and off at will when
> telling stories. Unfortunately, I seem unable to do that. Brian

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 17/05/2021 09:38, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> I get picked up all the time by the way I say Plastic, I say it like
> Plarstic.
> I am not sure where this comes from as my gran and my mother had Yorkshire
> accents, and my dad was a cockney.
>
> I can only assume it was at school.
> Brian

Even I say 'plastic' with a short 'a' as in 'cat'! I can't recall ever
hearing it said with a long 'a'.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk