On 17/05/2021 08:04 am, Woody wrote:
> On Mon 17/05/2021 02:29, Java Jive wrote:
>> On 16/05/2021 22:11, Robin wrote:
>>>
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/e8mkag33nyvuo5i/Aftermath.mp3?dl=0
>>
>> Fine, but it's not how I was taught to pronounce it!
>>
>
> To change the subject slightly, the one that really annoys me (#2) is
> the way many educated and erudite presenters insist on pronouncing
> castle as carsel/ Agghhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is the correct - Received Pronunciation - way to say it.

It has long since stopped sounding odd to my ears. Perhaps I've been way
down south for too long.

On Mon, 17 May 2021 12:55:25 +0100, Java Jive wrote:

> Even I say 'plastic' with a short 'a' as in 'cat'! I can't recall ever
> hearing it said with a long 'a'.

Back in the 1950s my physics teacher (BScHonsOxon) used to say 'plarstic'
but the thing that surprised us was that he called graph paper 'graff'
with a short a whereas the local (Surrey) pronunciation was 'grarf', same
as we say 'fotagrarf'.

--
TOJ.

On 17/05/2021 03:52 pm, The Other John wrote:
> On Mon, 17 May 2021 12:55:25 +0100, Java Jive wrote:
>
>> Even I say 'plastic' with a short 'a' as in 'cat'! I can't recall ever
>> hearing it said with a long 'a'.
>
> Back in the 1950s my physics teacher (BScHonsOxon) used to say 'plarstic'
> but the thing that surprised us was that he called graph paper 'graff'
> with a short a whereas the local (Surrey) pronunciation was 'grarf', same
> as we say 'fotagrarf'.

The RP flat-A "graph" pronunciation is logical if you extend it out into
its various forms. You wouldn't say "grarfik" or "grarfickle".

On Mon, 17 May 2021 16:38:18 +0100, JNugent wrote:

> The RP flat-A "graph" pronunciation is logical if you extend it out into
> its various forms. You wouldn't say "grarfik" or "grarfickle".

That's true, but is 'fotagrarf' common useage or is the short a used more?
Is it a north/south thing? I bet Bill says 'fotograff'! :)

--
TOJ.

On 17/05/2021 05:20 pm, The Other John wrote:
> On Mon, 17 May 2021 16:38:18 +0100, JNugent wrote:
>
>> The RP flat-A "graph" pronunciation is logical if you extend it out into
>> its various forms. You wouldn't say "grarfik" or "grarfickle".
>
> That's true, but is 'fotagrarf' common useage or is the short a used more?
> Is it a north/south thing? I bet Bill says 'fotograff'! :)

Down here in the south, I hear the short A version more.

In article <s7tlje$17sh$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>On 17/05/2021 09:38, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
>> I get picked up all the time by the way I say Plastic, I say it like
>> Plarstic.
>> I am not sure where this comes from as my gran and my mother had Yorkshire
>> accents, and my dad was a cockney.
>>
>> I can only assume it was at school.
>> Brian
>
>Even I say 'plastic' with a short 'a' as in 'cat'! I can't recall ever
>hearing it said with a long 'a'.

Today, at about 20-something minutes parst one, on the lunchtime (arfternoon)
BBC news, Reeta Chakrabati told us about the drarstic problem of single use
plarstic.

The reporter that prepared the section that followed resolutely called it
"plastic". How ... normal!

But, BBC pronunciation (?) was restored as we were told about the carst of
the various theatres preparing for theatre opening.

Darft, I calls it.

I hope you caught that bit of the news, otherwise it would have parst you
by!
--
--------------------------------------+------------------------------------
Mike Brown: mjb[-at-]signal11.org.uk | http://www.signal11.org.uk

On 18/05/2021 17:12, JNugent wrote:
> That's true, but is 'fotagrarf' common useage or is the short a used more?
> Is it a north/south thing? I bet Bill says 'fotograff'! :)

If I used the word 'photograph' I would be mocked for my
pretentiousness. It's 'snap' or 'picture'. Some of the young people say
'pic'.

Bill

On 19/05/2021 01:32 am, williamwright wrote:

> On 18/05/2021 17:12, JNugent wrote:

>> That's true, but is 'fotagrarf' common useage or is the short a used
>> more?
>> Is it a north/south thing? I bet Bill says 'fotograff'! :)
>
> If I used the word 'photograph' I would be mocked for my
> pretentiousness. It's 'snap' or 'picture'. Some of the young people say
> 'pic'.
>
> Bill

The above attribution is 100% inaccurate.

FWIW:
Arftermath. Photograrph. Yet graphite is a short A, even though both
come from the same Greek root.

The ones that catch even me when I say them is northern street names.
The thing on a field is a gate, gay-t. Yet Walmgate is York is Walm-get...

Andy

On 20/05/2021 10:06 am, Vir Campestris wrote:
> FWIW:
> Arftermath. Photograrph. Yet graphite is a short A, even though both
> come from the same Greek root.
>
> The ones that catch even me when I say them is northern street names.
> The thing on a field is a gate, gay-t. Yet Walmgate is York is Walm-get...

Both of them were originally gates in exactly the same sense as each other.

On 20/05/2021 15:29, JNugent wrote:
> On 20/05/2021 10:06 am, Vir Campestris wrote:
>> FWIW:
>> Arftermath. Photograrph. Yet graphite is a short A, even though both
>> come from the same Greek root.
>>
>> The ones that catch even me when I say them is northern street names.
>> The thing on a field is a gate, gay-t. Yet Walmgate is York is
>> Walm-get...
>
> Both of them were originally gates in exactly the same sense as each other.

Not my understanding...

<https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gate>

Etymology 1

From Middle English gate, gat, ȝate, ȝeat, from Old English gæt, gat,
ġeat (“a gate, door”), from Proto-Germanic *gatą (“hole, opening”)
(compare Old Norse gat, Swedish and Dutch gat, Low German Gaat, Gööt).
Alternative forms

yate (obsolete or dialectal)

Noun

gate (plural gates)

A doorlike structure outside a house.
Doorway, opening, or passage in a fence or wall.
....

Etymology 2
Borrowed from Old Norse gata, from Proto-Germanic *gatwǭ. Cognate with
Danish gade, Swedish gata, German Gasse (“lane”). Doublet of gait.

Compare "Old Norse gat" and "Old Norse gata".

Andy

On 20/05/2021 04:15 pm, Vir Campestris wrote:
> On 20/05/2021 15:29, JNugent wrote:
>> On 20/05/2021 10:06 am, Vir Campestris wrote:
>>> FWIW:
>>> Arftermath. Photograrph. Yet graphite is a short A, even though both
>>> come from the same Greek root.
>>>
>>> The ones that catch even me when I say them is northern street names.
>>> The thing on a field is a gate, gay-t. Yet Walmgate is York is
>>> Walm-get...
>>
>> Both of them were originally gates in exactly the same sense as each
>> other.
>
> Not my understanding...
>
> <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gate>
>
>
> Etymology 1
>
> From Middle English gate, gat, ȝate, ȝeat, from Old English gæt, gat,
> ġeat (“a gate, door”), from Proto-Germanic *gatą (“hole, opening”)
> (compare Old Norse gat, Swedish and Dutch gat, Low German Gaat, Gööt).
> Alternative forms
>
>     yate (obsolete or dialectal)
>
> Noun
>
> gate (plural gates)
>
>     A doorlike structure outside a house.
>     Doorway, opening, or passage in a fence or wall.
> ...
>
> Etymology 2
> Borrowed from Old Norse gata, from Proto-Germanic *gatwǭ. Cognate with
> Danish gade, Swedish gata, German Gasse (“lane”). Doublet of gait.
>
> Compare "Old Norse gat" and "Old Norse gata".
>
> Andy

Is there anything to suggest that the second quoted origin applies?

On 21/05/2021 12:44, JNugent wrote:
> On 20/05/2021 04:15 pm, Vir Campestris wrote:
>> On 20/05/2021 15:29, JNugent wrote:
>>> On 20/05/2021 10:06 am, Vir Campestris wrote:
>>>> FWIW:
>>>> Arftermath. Photograrph. Yet graphite is a short A, even though both
>>>> come from the same Greek root.
>>>>
>>>> The ones that catch even me when I say them is northern street names.
>>>> The thing on a field is a gate, gay-t. Yet Walmgate is York is
>>>> Walm-get...
>>>
>>> Both of them were originally gates in exactly the same sense as each
>>> other.
>>
>> Not my understanding...
>>
>> <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gate>
>>
>>
>> Etymology 1
>>
>>  From Middle English gate, gat, ȝate, ȝeat, from Old English gæt, gat,
>> ġeat (“a gate, door”), from Proto-Germanic *gatą (“hole, opening”)
>> (compare Old Norse gat, Swedish and Dutch gat, Low German Gaat, Gööt).
>> Alternative forms
>>
>>      yate (obsolete or dialectal)
>>
>> Noun
>>
>> gate (plural gates)
>>
>>      A doorlike structure outside a house.
>>      Doorway, opening, or passage in a fence or wall.
>> ...
>>
>> Etymology 2
>> Borrowed from Old Norse gata, from Proto-Germanic *gatwǭ. Cognate with
>> Danish gade, Swedish gata, German Gasse (“lane”). Doublet of gait.
>>
>> Compare "Old Norse gat" and "Old Norse gata".
>>
>> Andy
>
> Is there anything to suggest that the second quoted origin applies?
>

Well, etymology one refers to a gate or door.
Etymology two refers to a lane.

Did you read the link?

Andy

On 23/05/2021 09:52 pm, Vir Campestris wrote:
> On 21/05/2021 12:44, JNugent wrote:
>> On 20/05/2021 04:15 pm, Vir Campestris wrote:
>>> On 20/05/2021 15:29, JNugent wrote:
>>>> On 20/05/2021 10:06 am, Vir Campestris wrote:
>>>>> FWIW:
>>>>> Arftermath. Photograrph. Yet graphite is a short A, even though
>>>>> both come from the same Greek root.
>>>>>
>>>>> The ones that catch even me when I say them is northern street names.
>>>>> The thing on a field is a gate, gay-t. Yet Walmgate is York is
>>>>> Walm-get...
>>>>
>>>> Both of them were originally gates in exactly the same sense as each
>>>> other.
>>>
>>> Not my understanding...
>>>
>>> <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gate>
>>>
>>>
>>> Etymology 1
>>>
>>>  From Middle English gate, gat, ȝate, ȝeat, from Old English gæt,
>>> gat, ġeat (“a gate, door”), from Proto-Germanic *gatą (“hole,
>>> opening”) (compare Old Norse gat, Swedish and Dutch gat, Low German
>>> Gaat, Gööt).
>>> Alternative forms
>>>
>>>      yate (obsolete or dialectal)
>>>
>>> Noun
>>>
>>> gate (plural gates)
>>>
>>>      A doorlike structure outside a house.
>>>      Doorway, opening, or passage in a fence or wall.
>>> ...
>>>
>>> Etymology 2
>>> Borrowed from Old Norse gata, from Proto-Germanic *gatwǭ. Cognate
>>> with Danish gade, Swedish gata, German Gasse (“lane”). Doublet of gait.
>>>
>>> Compare "Old Norse gat" and "Old Norse gata".
>>>
>>> Andy
>>
>> Is there anything to suggest that the second quoted origin applies?
>
> Well, etymology one refers to a gate or door.
> Etymology two refers to a  lane.
>
> Did you read the link?

I was already aware of it. The word "gate" used as part of a street name
in a medieval city or town signifies that the street used to pass
through a gate in the city wall. It's the "door" or "gate" which is
relevant. If the word was later applied to part of the thoroughfare
further afield than the immediate location of the gate, it doesn't
change that.

On 24/05/2021 17:11, JNugent wrote:
<snip>

> I was already aware of it. The word "gate" used as part of a street name
> in a medieval city or town signifies that the street used to pass
> through a gate in the city wall. It's the "door" or "gate" which is
> relevant. If the word was later applied to part of the thoroughfare
> further afield than the immediate location of the gate, it doesn't
> change that.

that depends on the town/city in question

https://www.grandyorkshire.com/blog/street-names-in-york/
https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/history/many-nottingham-street-names-end-870178

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 24/05/2021 17:11, JNugent wrote:
> On 23/05/2021 09:52 pm, Vir Campestris wrote:
>> On 21/05/2021 12:44, JNugent wrote:
>>> On 20/05/2021 04:15 pm, Vir Campestris wrote:
>>>> On 20/05/2021 15:29, JNugent wrote:
>>>>> On 20/05/2021 10:06 am, Vir Campestris wrote:
>>>>>> FWIW:
>>>>>> Arftermath. Photograrph. Yet graphite is a short A, even though
>>>>>> both come from the same Greek root.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The ones that catch even me when I say them is northern street names.
>>>>>> The thing on a field is a gate, gay-t. Yet Walmgate is York is
>>>>>> Walm-get...
>>>>>
>>>>> Both of them were originally gates in exactly the same sense as
>>>>> each other.
>>>>
>>>> Not my understanding...
>>>>
>>>> <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gate>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Etymology 1
>>>>
>>>>  From Middle English gate, gat, ȝate, ȝeat, from Old English gæt,
>>>> gat, ġeat (“a gate, door”), from Proto-Germanic *gatą (“hole,
>>>> opening”) (compare Old Norse gat, Swedish and Dutch gat, Low German
>>>> Gaat, Gööt).
>>>> Alternative forms
>>>>
>>>>      yate (obsolete or dialectal)
>>>>
>>>> Noun
>>>>
>>>> gate (plural gates)
>>>>
>>>>      A doorlike structure outside a house.
>>>>      Doorway, opening, or passage in a fence or wall.
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> Etymology 2
>>>> Borrowed from Old Norse gata, from Proto-Germanic *gatwǭ. Cognate
>>>> with Danish gade, Swedish gata, German Gasse (“lane”). Doublet of gait.
>>>>
>>>> Compare "Old Norse gat" and "Old Norse gata".
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>
>>> Is there anything to suggest that the second quoted origin applies?
>>
>> Well, etymology one refers to a gate or door.
>> Etymology two refers to a  lane.
>>
>> Did you read the link?
>
> I was already aware of it. The word "gate" used as part of a street name
> in a medieval city or town signifies that the street used to pass
> through a gate in the city wall. It's the "door" or "gate" which is
> relevant. If the word was later applied to part of the thoroughfare
> further afield than the immediate location of the gate, it doesn't
> change that.

Both I and the reference the way I read it differ from your opinion.

Do you have a reference that states that every gasse in Germany passes
through a wall?

Certainly a lot of the -gate roads in York don't pass through the city wall.

Andy

On 25/05/2021 09:43 pm, Vir Campestris wrote:
> On 24/05/2021 17:11, JNugent wrote:
>> On 23/05/2021 09:52 pm, Vir Campestris wrote:
>>> On 21/05/2021 12:44, JNugent wrote:
>>>> On 20/05/2021 04:15 pm, Vir Campestris wrote:
>>>>> On 20/05/2021 15:29, JNugent wrote:
>>>>>> On 20/05/2021 10:06 am, Vir Campestris wrote:
>>>>>>> FWIW:
>>>>>>> Arftermath. Photograrph. Yet graphite is a short A, even though
>>>>>>> both come from the same Greek root.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The ones that catch even me when I say them is northern street
>>>>>>> names.
>>>>>>> The thing on a field is a gate, gay-t. Yet Walmgate is York is
>>>>>>> Walm-get...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Both of them were originally gates in exactly the same sense as
>>>>>> each other.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not my understanding...
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gate>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Etymology 1
>>>>>
>>>>>  From Middle English gate, gat, ȝate, ȝeat, from Old English gæt,
>>>>> gat, ġeat (“a gate, door”), from Proto-Germanic *gatą (“hole,
>>>>> opening”) (compare Old Norse gat, Swedish and Dutch gat, Low German
>>>>> Gaat, Gööt).
>>>>> Alternative forms
>>>>>
>>>>>      yate (obsolete or dialectal)
>>>>>
>>>>> Noun
>>>>>
>>>>> gate (plural gates)
>>>>>
>>>>>      A doorlike structure outside a house.
>>>>>      Doorway, opening, or passage in a fence or wall.
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Etymology 2
>>>>> Borrowed from Old Norse gata, from Proto-Germanic *gatwǭ. Cognate
>>>>> with Danish gade, Swedish gata, German Gasse (“lane”). Doublet of
>>>>> gait.
>>>>>
>>>>> Compare "Old Norse gat" and "Old Norse gata".
>>>>>
>>>>> Andy
>>>>
>>>> Is there anything to suggest that the second quoted origin applies?
>>>
>>> Well, etymology one refers to a gate or door.
>>> Etymology two refers to a  lane.
>>>
>>> Did you read the link?
>>
>> I was already aware of it. The word "gate" used as part of a street
>> name in a medieval city or town signifies that the street used to pass
>> through a gate in the city wall. It's the "door" or "gate" which is
>> relevant. If the word was later applied to part of the thoroughfare
>> further afield than the immediate location of the gate, it doesn't
>> change that.
>
> Both I and the reference the way I read it differ from your opinion.
>
> Do you have a reference that states that every gasse in Germany passes
> through a wall?

No. I have not sought to reference that at all.
>
> Certainly a lot of the -gate roads in York don't pass through the city
> wall.
>
> Andy