Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 17:50:57 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 13:19:26 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
>>>>>> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.
>>>>>
>>>>> I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
>>>>> signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
>>>>> changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??
>>>>>
>>>> Modern in-cab signalling systems, for UK-relevance that's TVM-430 and ETCS,
>>>> use lineside signs to denote the ends of sections; and messages transmitted
>>>> to the in-cab displays to give authority to proceed and how far to proceed.
>>>>
>>> Does this apply to the Glasgow commuter network? My understanding was
>>> that the driver could drive in accordance with the colour light
>>> signals and only speak to the signaller in the event of a problem. It
>>> remains unclear why almost the whole network came to a stop.
>>>
>> Doesn’t GSM-R have an emergency button in the cab to allow an, umm,
>> emergency to be communicated to the signaller and if necessary to bring all
>> trains in the area to a halt? Without the in cab radio working you remove a
>> safety feature that might not be often used, but could have very serious
>> consequences if missing.
>
> What about all the passengers who faced disruption all day, quite
> possibly having to drive to work and home again at risk of an
> accident?
>

Might as well get rid of all signalling and go back to time-interval
working, then?

Lack of continuous brakes, for example, only caused fatalities on a few
days, we managed ok on the other days! Therefore why bother with them at
all.

Same with seatbelts and airbags in cars; they'll only save your life if you
actually crash, so on the days you're not going to crash you don't need
them?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 09/02/2022 13:19, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>>
>>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>>
>>>> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
>>>> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.
>>>
>>> I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
>>> signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
>>> changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??
>>>
>>
>> Modern in-cab signalling systems, for UK-relevance that's TVM-430 and ETCS,
>> use lineside signs to denote the ends of sections; and messages transmitted
>> to the in-cab displays to give authority to proceed and how far to proceed.
>>
>>
>> Some examples:
>>
>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1356181003526696961?s=21>
>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1265931324822638594?s=21>
>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1471782738613227530?s=21>
>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1315578470781648897?s=21>
>>
>> And some international examples:
>>
>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1263757002402148354?s=21>
>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1233786012960202789?s=21>
>>
>>
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>
> So traditional signals are being / have been phased out? I am aware that
> some lines (e.g. to Oban) have moved to radio signalling and, last time
> I passed, the traditional signals had been marked as out of use. Is this
> the new norm?
>

So far in the UK, in-cab signalling only applies to HS1, Thameslink core,
Crossrail core, Heathrow branch and the Cambrian lines (plus RETB-fitted
lines). And some LU lines.

I believe all recent resignalling schemes are done in such a way that they
can in future be converted to ETCS (that's what NR mean when they talk
about 'digital signalling'); there's also the possibility of ETCS being
overlaid on lines which retain conventional signals, allowing both fitted
and unfitted trains to run (but allowing more flexibility for the fitted
trains, eg higher linespeed or shorter sections).

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 2022-02-09 23:20:37 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:

> On 09/02/2022 23:07, Recliner wrote:
>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 09/02/2022 13:19, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
>>>>>> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.
>>>>>
>>>>> I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
>>>>> signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
>>>>> changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Modern in-cab signalling systems, for UK-relevance that's TVM-430 and ETCS,
>>>> use lineside signs to denote the ends of sections; and messages transmitted
>>>> to the in-cab displays to give authority to proceed and how far to proceed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Some examples:
>>>>
>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1356181003526696961?s=21>
>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1265931324822638594?s=21>
>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1471782738613227530?s=21>
>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1315578470781648897?s=21>
>>>>
>>>> And some international examples:
>>>>
>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1263757002402148354?s=21>
>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1233786012960202789?s=21>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>
>>> So traditional signals are being / have been phased out? I am aware that
>>> some lines (e.g. to Oban) have moved to radio signalling and, last time
>>> I passed, the traditional signals had been marked as out of use. Is this
>>> the new norm?
>>>
>>
>> Yes, very much so. Large parts of the London Underground now operate
>> without lineside signals, as does the Cambrian line. The southern end of
>> the ECML is currently being converted to ETCS Level 2:
>>
>> https://www.railengineer.co.uk/ertms-on-the-east-coast-main-line/
>>
> I would hope that they at least retain waysides at danger sites, such
> as at draw bridges or at points -- even if it is a simple stop and
> proceed.

We have already got a widespread system for controlling trains at such
locations that doesn't rely on lineside signals to ensure that trains
to stop at such locations, in the form of TPWS, because experience has
determined that drivers observing lineside signals are not, on their
own, adequate. Also, existing systems that do not use lineside signals
as such (TVM430, ETCS2) have lineside signs that indicate the
signalling blocks (the blue and yellow triangle signs).

Robin

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 18:06:04 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 17:50:57 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 13:19:26 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>>>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>>>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>>>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>>>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>>>>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>>>>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
>>>>>>>> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
>>>>>>> signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
>>>>>>> changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Modern in-cab signalling systems, for UK-relevance that's TVM-430 and ETCS,
>>>>>> use lineside signs to denote the ends of sections; and messages transmitted
>>>>>> to the in-cab displays to give authority to proceed and how far to proceed.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Does this apply to the Glasgow commuter network? My understanding was
>>>>> that the driver could drive in accordance with the colour light
>>>>> signals and only speak to the signaller in the event of a problem. It
>>>>> remains unclear why almost the whole network came to a stop.
>>>>>
>>>> Doesn?t GSM-R have an emergency button in the cab to allow an, umm,
>>>> emergency to be communicated to the signaller and if necessary to bring all
>>>> trains in the area to a halt? Without the in cab radio working you remove a
>>>> safety feature that might not be often used, but could have very serious
>>>> consequences if missing.
>>>
>>> What about all the passengers who faced disruption all day, quite
>>> possibly having to drive to work and home again at risk of an
>>> accident?
>>>
>> Car accidents are acceptable to public opinion. Major train crashes are
>> not.
>
> Sadly, I think your analysis is correct.

Major train crashes are, in one sense, much easier to avoid - prevent one
event and you’ve saved many lives and avoided masses of disruption. To
achieve the same level of goodness in terms of car crashes means preventing
dozens of events.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 2022-02-10 09:55:59 +0000, Scott said:

> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 23:34:27 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 09/02/2022 23:07, Recliner wrote:
>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 09/02/2022 13:19, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>>>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>>>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>>>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>>>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>>>>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>>>>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
>>>>>>>> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
>>>>>>> signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
>>>>>>> changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Modern in-cab signalling systems, for UK-relevance that's TVM-430 and ETCS,
>>>>>> use lineside signs to denote the ends of sections; and messages transmitted
>>>>>> to the in-cab displays to give authority to proceed and how far to proceed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some examples:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1356181003526696961?s=21>
>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1265931324822638594?s=21>
>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1471782738613227530?s=21>
>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1315578470781648897?s=21>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And some international examples:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1263757002402148354?s=21>
>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1233786012960202789?s=21>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>
>>>>> So traditional signals are being / have been phased out? I am aware that
>>>>> some lines (e.g. to Oban) have moved to radio signalling and, last time
>>>>> I passed, the traditional signals had been marked as out of use. Is this
>>>>> the new norm?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, very much so. Large parts of the London Underground now operate
>>>> without lineside signals, as does the Cambrian line. The southern end of
>>>> the ECML is currently being converted to ETCS Level 2:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.railengineer.co.uk/ertms-on-the-east-coast-main-line/
>>>>
>>> I would hope that they at least retain waysides at danger sites, such as
>>> at draw bridges or at points -- even if it is a simple stop and proceed.
>>>
>>
>> No, all lineside signals are first covered, and eventually removed. It's
>> much safer than lineside signalling. HS1 has operated this way for many
>> years, and all high speed routes are the same.
>
> What happens if a train that is not equipped with cab signalling (eg
> empty carriage stock or a charter train) needs to travel on the route?
> Does this mean many train types unable to use the WCML even in
> exceptional circumstances?

ECML, not WCML. The short answer is, no rolling stock lacking the
relevant ETCS2 hardware will be able to operate over the route (King's
Cross and Moorgate to Royston and almost-Grantham, including the
Hertford Loop). Many of the trains that regularly use the route
already have the needed equipment as-built (Thameslink, 80x, 717). One
of the reasons for the Cambrian line pilot scheme was to iron out the
bugs involved in retrofitting legacy rolling stock for operation using
this system, and on the basis of that, the legacy fleets, as well as
freight locomotives and various "yellow trains" are to be so-upgraded.
There is a project to work on fitting the needed equipment to certain
heritage locomotives as well (eg Tornado, a Deltic). For any other
purposes, the options are to modify trains (if they are expected to use
the route regularly, eg charter fleet) or arrange for a suitably
equiped locomotive (eg from the freight fleet). It is likely that
should the ECML work out, similar conversions will be made to other
routes as they come due for resignalling.

Robin

On 10/02/2022 07:26, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 09/02/2022 13:19, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>>>
>>>>> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
>>>>> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.
>>>>
>>>> I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
>>>> signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
>>>> changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??
>>>>
>>>
>>> Modern in-cab signalling systems, for UK-relevance that's TVM-430 and ETCS,
>>> use lineside signs to denote the ends of sections; and messages transmitted
>>> to the in-cab displays to give authority to proceed and how far to proceed.
>>>
>>>
>>> Some examples:
>>>
>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1356181003526696961?s=21>
>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1265931324822638594?s=21>
>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1471782738613227530?s=21>
>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1315578470781648897?s=21>
>>>
>>> And some international examples:
>>>
>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1263757002402148354?s=21>
>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1233786012960202789?s=21>
>>>
>>
>> So, then is the plan in the UK to completely eliminate waysides?
>>
>>
>
> So far in the UK, in-cab signalling only applies to HS1, Thameslink core,
> Crossrail core, Heathrow branch and the Cambrian lines (plus RETB-fitted
> lines). And some LU lines.
>

But, to get back on track, not the Glasgow area suburban lines. So why
the problem?? Surely lineside signals are sufficient.

--
Colin

On 10/02/2022 09:55, Scott wrote:
> What happens if a train that is not equipped with cab signalling (eg
> empty carriage stock or a charter train) needs to travel on the route?
> Does this mean many train types unable to use the WCML even in
> exceptional circumstances?

No idea what they use now but there were transportable units that could
be used on the West Highland Line. I have some photographs somewhere of
one on the passenger seat of a Network Rail van in Kyle of Lochalsh.

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 10/02/2022 07:26, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 09/02/2022 13:19, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
>>>>>> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.
>>>>>
>>>>> I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
>>>>> signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
>>>>> changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Modern in-cab signalling systems, for UK-relevance that's TVM-430 and ETCS,
>>>> use lineside signs to denote the ends of sections; and messages transmitted
>>>> to the in-cab displays to give authority to proceed and how far to proceed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Some examples:
>>>>
>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1356181003526696961?s=21>
>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1265931324822638594?s=21>
>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1471782738613227530?s=21>
>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1315578470781648897?s=21>
>>>>
>>>> And some international examples:
>>>>
>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1263757002402148354?s=21>
>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1233786012960202789?s=21>
>>>>
>>>
>>> So, then is the plan in the UK to completely eliminate waysides?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> So far in the UK, in-cab signalling only applies to HS1, Thameslink core,
>> Crossrail core, Heathrow branch and the Cambrian lines (plus RETB-fitted
>> lines). And some LU lines.
>>
>
> But, to get back on track, not the Glasgow area suburban lines. So why
> the problem?? Surely lineside signals are sufficient.
>

GSM-R is now used for emergency protection, ie to stop oncoming trains in
the event of an obstruction etc.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 07:26:17 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 13:19:26 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
>>>>>> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.
>>>>>
>>>>> I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
>>>>> signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
>>>>> changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??
>>>>>
>>>> Modern in-cab signalling systems, for UK-relevance that's TVM-430 and ETCS,
>>>> use lineside signs to denote the ends of sections; and messages transmitted
>>>> to the in-cab displays to give authority to proceed and how far to proceed.
>>>>
>>> Does this apply to the Glasgow commuter network?
>>
>> No.
>>
>>> My understanding was
>>> that the driver could drive in accordance with the colour light
>>> signals and only speak to the signaller in the event of a problem. It
>>> remains unclear why almost the whole network came to a stop.
>>>
>> GSM-R is now used for emergency protection, ie to stop oncoming trains in
>> the event of an obstruction etc.
>
> Is dynamite still used at all then?
>

Detonators are still carried and are still the fall-back method of
protection, along with track circuit clips; but GSM-R is much better
because it immediately stops all trains in the affected area. TC clips
aren't effective in axle counter areas (or other non-track-circuited areas
eg Absolute Block sections); full detonator protection involves walking 2km
(unless a lineside phone is encountered earlier), and then only protects in
one direction unless you have staff spare to go in both directions.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 23:34:27 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 09/02/2022 23:07, Recliner wrote:
>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 09/02/2022 13:19, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>>>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>>>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>>>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>>>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>>>>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>>>>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
>>>>>>>> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
>>>>>>> signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
>>>>>>> changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Modern in-cab signalling systems, for UK-relevance that's TVM-430 and ETCS,
>>>>>> use lineside signs to denote the ends of sections; and messages transmitted
>>>>>> to the in-cab displays to give authority to proceed and how far to proceed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some examples:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1356181003526696961?s=21>
>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1265931324822638594?s=21>
>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1471782738613227530?s=21>
>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1315578470781648897?s=21>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And some international examples:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1263757002402148354?s=21>
>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/signaloftheday/status/1233786012960202789?s=21>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>
>>>>> So traditional signals are being / have been phased out? I am aware that
>>>>> some lines (e.g. to Oban) have moved to radio signalling and, last time
>>>>> I passed, the traditional signals had been marked as out of use. Is this
>>>>> the new norm?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, very much so. Large parts of the London Underground now operate
>>>> without lineside signals, as does the Cambrian line. The southern end of
>>>> the ECML is currently being converted to ETCS Level 2:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.railengineer.co.uk/ertms-on-the-east-coast-main-line/
>>>>
>>> I would hope that they at least retain waysides at danger sites, such as
>>> at draw bridges or at points -- even if it is a simple stop and proceed.
>>>
>>
>> No, all lineside signals are first covered, and eventually removed. It's
>> much safer than lineside signalling. HS1 has operated this way for many
>> years, and all high speed routes are the same.
>
> What happens if a train that is not equipped with cab signalling (eg
> empty carriage stock or a charter train) needs to travel on the route?
> Does this mean many train types unable to use the WCML even in
> exceptional circumstances?
>

That's all covered in the article about the ECML quoted above.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 18:06:04 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 17:50:57 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 13:19:26 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>>>>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>>>>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>>>>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>>>>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>>>>>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>>>>>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
>>>>>>>>> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
>>>>>>>> signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
>>>>>>>> changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Modern in-cab signalling systems, for UK-relevance that's TVM-430 and ETCS,
>>>>>>> use lineside signs to denote the ends of sections; and messages transmitted
>>>>>>> to the in-cab displays to give authority to proceed and how far to proceed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does this apply to the Glasgow commuter network? My understanding was
>>>>>> that the driver could drive in accordance with the colour light
>>>>>> signals and only speak to the signaller in the event of a problem. It
>>>>>> remains unclear why almost the whole network came to a stop.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Doesn?t GSM-R have an emergency button in the cab to allow an, umm,
>>>>> emergency to be communicated to the signaller and if necessary to bring all
>>>>> trains in the area to a halt? Without the in cab radio working you remove a
>>>>> safety feature that might not be often used, but could have very serious
>>>>> consequences if missing.
>>>>
>>>> What about all the passengers who faced disruption all day, quite
>>>> possibly having to drive to work and home again at risk of an
>>>> accident?
>>>>
>>> Car accidents are acceptable to public opinion. Major train crashes are
>>> not.
>>
>> Sadly, I think your analysis is correct.
>
> Major train crashes are, in one sense, much easier to avoid - prevent one
> event and you’ve saved many lives and avoided masses of disruption. To
> achieve the same level of goodness in terms of car crashes means preventing
> dozens of events.
>
> Sam
>

Somehow we don’t seem to get the major car pile ups of old. It used to be
that very many vehicles were involved in pole ups in fog on the motorways,
rather regularly. That doesn’t seem to happen any more. Not sure why.

Am 10.02.2022 um 20:55 schrieb Tweed:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>> Major train crashes are, in one sense, much easier to avoid - prevent one
>> event and you’ve saved many lives and avoided masses of disruption. To
>> achieve the same level of goodness in terms of car crashes means preventing
>> dozens of events.
>
> Somehow we don’t seem to get the major car pile ups of old. It used to be
> that very many vehicles were involved in pole ups in fog on the motorways,
> rather regularly. That doesn’t seem to happen any more. Not sure why.

Enhanced distance awareness plays a part, distance measuring equipment
in cars plays a part (if 20% of the cars have it, that cuts the size of
a mass pileup to 5 vehicles on average), and reduced pollution possibly
in combination with global warming might reduce the nubmer of "thick
fog" occasions triggering mass pileups.

Even without mass pileups and considering the fact that car driving
accidents per million miles have dropped by a factor of IIRC 10 since
the 1970s, an "unsafe" train due to lack of GSM-R is still significantly
less dagnerous than a "safe" car.

Rolf

On 10/02/2022 19:55, Tweed wrote:
> Somehow we don’t seem to get the major car pile ups of old. It used to be
> that very many vehicles were involved in pole ups in fog on the motorways,
> rather regularly. That doesn’t seem to happen any more. Not sure why.

We don't get serious fog now just mist though to to listen to some
people you would think they were the classic peasoupers.

On 10/02/2022 19:55, Tweed wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 18:06:04 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 17:50:57 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 13:19:26 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>>>>>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>>>>>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>>>>>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>>>>>>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>>>>>>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
>>>>>>>>>> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
>>>>>>>>> signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
>>>>>>>>> changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Modern in-cab signalling systems, for UK-relevance that's TVM-430 and ETCS,
>>>>>>>> use lineside signs to denote the ends of sections; and messages transmitted
>>>>>>>> to the in-cab displays to give authority to proceed and how far to proceed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does this apply to the Glasgow commuter network? My understanding was
>>>>>>> that the driver could drive in accordance with the colour light
>>>>>>> signals and only speak to the signaller in the event of a problem. It
>>>>>>> remains unclear why almost the whole network came to a stop.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Doesn?t GSM-R have an emergency button in the cab to allow an, umm,
>>>>>> emergency to be communicated to the signaller and if necessary to bring all
>>>>>> trains in the area to a halt? Without the in cab radio working you remove a
>>>>>> safety feature that might not be often used, but could have very serious
>>>>>> consequences if missing.
>>>>>
>>>>> What about all the passengers who faced disruption all day, quite
>>>>> possibly having to drive to work and home again at risk of an
>>>>> accident?
>>>>>
>>>> Car accidents are acceptable to public opinion. Major train crashes are
>>>> not.
>>>
>>> Sadly, I think your analysis is correct.
>>
>> Major train crashes are, in one sense, much easier to avoid - prevent one
>> event and you’ve saved many lives and avoided masses of disruption. To
>> achieve the same level of goodness in terms of car crashes means preventing
>> dozens of events.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>
> Somehow we don’t seem to get the major car pile ups of old. It used to be
> that very many vehicles were involved in pole ups in fog on the motorways,
> rather regularly. That doesn’t seem to happen any more. Not sure why.
>

Global warming, less fog.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 10/02/2022 20:30, MB wrote:
> On 10/02/2022 19:55, Tweed wrote:
>> Somehow we don’t seem to get the major car pile ups of old. It used to be
>> that very many vehicles were involved in pole ups in fog on the
>> motorways,
>> rather regularly. That doesn’t seem to happen any more. Not sure why.
>
> We don't get serious fog now just mist though to to listen to some
> people you would think they were the classic peasoupers.

People over exaggerate rain as well. Some call a gentle shower a downpour.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 10/02/2022 19:55, Tweed wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 18:06:04 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 17:50:57 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 13:19:26 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>>>>>>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>>>>>>>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
>>>>>>>>>>> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
>>>>>>>>>> signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
>>>>>>>>>> changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Modern in-cab signalling systems, for UK-relevance that's TVM-430 and ETCS,
>>>>>>>>> use lineside signs to denote the ends of sections; and messages transmitted
>>>>>>>>> to the in-cab displays to give authority to proceed and how far to proceed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Does this apply to the Glasgow commuter network? My understanding was
>>>>>>>> that the driver could drive in accordance with the colour light
>>>>>>>> signals and only speak to the signaller in the event of a problem. It
>>>>>>>> remains unclear why almost the whole network came to a stop.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Doesn?t GSM-R have an emergency button in the cab to allow an, umm,
>>>>>>> emergency to be communicated to the signaller and if necessary to bring all
>>>>>>> trains in the area to a halt? Without the in cab radio working you remove a
>>>>>>> safety feature that might not be often used, but could have very serious
>>>>>>> consequences if missing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What about all the passengers who faced disruption all day, quite
>>>>>> possibly having to drive to work and home again at risk of an
>>>>>> accident?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Car accidents are acceptable to public opinion. Major train crashes are
>>>>> not.
>>>>
>>>> Sadly, I think your analysis is correct.
>>>
>>> Major train crashes are, in one sense, much easier to avoid - prevent one
>>> event and you’ve saved many lives and avoided masses of disruption. To
>>> achieve the same level of goodness in terms of car crashes means preventing
>>> dozens of events.
>>>
>>> Sam
>>>
>>
>> Somehow we don’t seem to get the major car pile ups of old. It used to be
>> that very many vehicles were involved in pole ups in fog on the motorways,
>> rather regularly. That doesn’t seem to happen any more. Not sure why.
>>
>
> Global warming, less fog.
>

Less sulphurous pollution these days.

On 10/02/2022 13:27, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 07:26:17 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 13:19:26 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>>>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>>>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
>>>>>>> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
>>>>>> signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
>>>>>> changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??
>>>>>>
>>>>> Modern in-cab signalling systems, for UK-relevance that's TVM-430 and ETCS,
>>>>> use lineside signs to denote the ends of sections; and messages transmitted
>>>>> to the in-cab displays to give authority to proceed and how far to proceed.
>>>>>
>>>> Does this apply to the Glasgow commuter network?
>>>
>>> No.
>>>
>>>> My understanding was
>>>> that the driver could drive in accordance with the colour light
>>>> signals and only speak to the signaller in the event of a problem. It
>>>> remains unclear why almost the whole network came to a stop.
>>>>
>>> GSM-R is now used for emergency protection, ie to stop oncoming trains in
>>> the event of an obstruction etc.
>>
>> Is dynamite still used at all then?
>>
>
> Detonators are still carried and are still the fall-back method of
> protection, along with track circuit clips; but GSM-R is much better
> because it immediately stops all trains in the affected area. TC clips
> aren't effective in axle counter areas (or other non-track-circuited areas
> eg Absolute Block sections); full detonator protection involves walking 2km
> (unless a lineside phone is encountered earlier), and then only protects in
> one direction unless you have staff spare to go in both directions.
>
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>

I agree with you saying that, but I have also wondered in some cases if
GSM-R takes away from safety to a degree as it would not be possible to
hear radio chatter.

I have heard of one case where the cab signals had failed. The train
ahead of another one was complaining to the signaller about how he had
stopped at one station, whilst the train behind had not received any
hits on his cab signals. That is, whereas the interface indicated track
normal aspect, it should have indicated medium (30 miles) or restricted
(15 miles) speed at that distance.

Because the engineer (driver) heard that communication, however, he knew
that he was in dangerously close proximity and on the same track. He
thus was able to go into emergency.

Open radio will also let one engineer speak to another to inform him if
something is not right on his train, such as a hot box. I'm sure that
GSM-R allows train-to-train, but it takes some time to ring up and
inform the engineer of another train that something is amiss, rather
than the equivalent of "Oy, mate, something's wrong."

Indeed, if one train is speaking to the signaller about a problem, and
another train is passing, he can observe and add to that conversation.
As it apparently stands, the signaller would have to ring the train from
the other direction and order him to take a look, and that is going to
take time. That could be dangerous, depending on the situation.

What if a train suddenly stops, requiring a crew member to detrain onto
the tracks? I would probably want the signaller to able to bark an order
to any other trains in the vicinity to slow to restricted and lean on
the horn. It'd be even better if other trains in the area heard the
initial discussion.

That's my take on it, at least.

On 10/02/2022 21:57, Recliner wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 10/02/2022 19:55, Tweed wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 18:06:04 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 17:50:57 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 13:19:26 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>>>>>>>>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
>>>>>>>>>>>> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
>>>>>>>>>>> signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
>>>>>>>>>>> changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Modern in-cab signalling systems, for UK-relevance that's TVM-430 and ETCS,
>>>>>>>>>> use lineside signs to denote the ends of sections; and messages transmitted
>>>>>>>>>> to the in-cab displays to give authority to proceed and how far to proceed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Does this apply to the Glasgow commuter network? My understanding was
>>>>>>>>> that the driver could drive in accordance with the colour light
>>>>>>>>> signals and only speak to the signaller in the event of a problem. It
>>>>>>>>> remains unclear why almost the whole network came to a stop.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Doesn?t GSM-R have an emergency button in the cab to allow an, umm,
>>>>>>>> emergency to be communicated to the signaller and if necessary to bring all
>>>>>>>> trains in the area to a halt? Without the in cab radio working you remove a
>>>>>>>> safety feature that might not be often used, but could have very serious
>>>>>>>> consequences if missing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What about all the passengers who faced disruption all day, quite
>>>>>>> possibly having to drive to work and home again at risk of an
>>>>>>> accident?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Car accidents are acceptable to public opinion. Major train crashes are
>>>>>> not.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sadly, I think your analysis is correct.
>>>>
>>>> Major train crashes are, in one sense, much easier to avoid - prevent one
>>>> event and you’ve saved many lives and avoided masses of disruption. To
>>>> achieve the same level of goodness in terms of car crashes means preventing
>>>> dozens of events.
>>>>
>>>> Sam
>>>>
>>>
>>> Somehow we don’t seem to get the major car pile ups of old. It used to be
>>> that very many vehicles were involved in pole ups in fog on the motorways,
>>> rather regularly. That doesn’t seem to happen any more. Not sure why.
>>>
>>
>> Global warming, less fog.
>>
>
> Less sulphurous pollution these days.
>

That's been reduced for quite a while, as a result of the Clean Air Act,
but I can remember when very thick fogs were almost routine in winter
in the 70s and 80s.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 10/02/2022 19:55, Tweed wrote:
>> Somehow we don’t seem to get the major car pile ups of old. It used to be
>> that very many vehicles were involved in pole ups in fog on the motorways,
>> rather regularly. That doesn’t seem to happen any more. Not sure why.
>
> We don't get serious fog now just mist though to to listen to some
> people you would think they were the classic peasoupers.
>
>
>

Last one I recall because I was using the M5 that night was near Taunton
in 2011, at first it was thought smoke from a firework display was
responsible and one person connected with that ended up in court.
They were found not guilty and the cause deemed to be natural fog.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_M5_motorway_crash>

Fortunately my journey meant I left the M5 before going down that far.

GH

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 10/02/2022 13:27, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 07:26:17 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> GSM-R is now used for emergency protection, ie to stop oncoming trains in
>>>> the event of an obstruction etc.
>>>
>>> Is dynamite still used at all then?
>>>
>>
>> Detonators are still carried and are still the fall-back method of
>> protection, along with track circuit clips; but GSM-R is much better
>> because it immediately stops all trains in the affected area. TC clips
>> aren't effective in axle counter areas (or other non-track-circuited areas
>> eg Absolute Block sections); full detonator protection involves walking 2km
>> (unless a lineside phone is encountered earlier), and then only protects in
>> one direction unless you have staff spare to go in both directions.
>>
>
> I agree with you saying that, but I have also wondered in some cases if
> GSM-R takes away from safety to a degree as it would not be possible to
> hear radio chatter.
>

"Hearing radio chatter", other than in specific circumstances such as
shunting in yards and depots, has never been a thing on the railways in the
UK, ever.

For one thing, I've already mentioned the occasional lack of geographical
separation on GSM-R; when I'm concentrating on the approach to Paddington
the last thing I want to be distracted by is Overground drivers wittering
on about their latest dramas. Similarly at Cardiff with Valley Lines,
Reading with SWR etc.

Previous to GSM-R we had NRN and CSR which again was one-to-one
communication (other than broadcasts from signallers, on all three
systems), there was no in-cab communication at all, only signal-post
telephones and other platform or lineside phones.

> I have heard of one case where the cab signals had failed. The train
> ahead of another one was complaining to the signaller about how he had
> stopped at one station, whilst the train behind had not received any
> hits on his cab signals. That is, whereas the interface indicated track
> normal aspect, it should have indicated medium (30 miles) or restricted
> (15 miles) speed at that distance.
>

That sounds like an utterly terrible signalling system, then, with no
fail-safe mechanism?

> Because the engineer (driver) heard that communication, however, he knew
> that he was in dangerously close proximity and on the same track. He
> thus was able to go into emergency.
>

Except on lines with very light traffic [1], I don't generally know which
train is ahead of me, or behind, or coming the other way.

[1] And other circumstances such as when working a particular train out of
Swansea, I know that the first IET I pass is the other service worked by
drivers at my depot, because I was probably doing it the day before or
after. Also when my train is running late and I see my connection to
travel home leaving before I arrive… :(

> Open radio will also let one engineer speak to another to inform him if
> something is not right on his train, such as a hot box. I'm sure that
> GSM-R allows train-to-train, but it takes some time to ring up and
> inform the engineer of another train that something is amiss, rather
> than the equivalent of "Oy, mate, something's wrong."
>

GSM-R only allows direct cab-to-cab communication in very limited
circumstances, assisting another train, and you both need to register with
the same headcode, in a way so specific that I carry the reminder card with
me in case I ever need to do it.

The only other time you'll hear other drivers speak (and the closest
situation to your 'general radio chatter') is when someone pushes the Big
Red Button. The conversation between driver and signaller is then broadcast
to all drivers in the area, and also over loudspeakers in the relevant
TOC/NR control rooms.

> Indeed, if one train is speaking to the signaller about a problem, and
> another train is passing, he can observe and add to that conversation.
>

Nope.

> As it apparently stands, the signaller would have to ring the train from
> the other direction and order him to take a look, and that is going to
> take time. That could be dangerous, depending on the situation.
>

🤷‍♀️

> What if a train suddenly stops, requiring a crew member to detrain onto
> the tracks?

You don't get out onto other tracks until you've spoken to the signaller
and got a line block.

> I would probably want the signaller to able to bark an order
> to any other trains in the vicinity to slow to restricted and lean on
> the horn. It'd be even better if other trains in the area heard the
> initial discussion.
>

I'd prefer the other trains on lines I need to walk on, to be stopped tbh,
not just slowed down by an unspecified amount.

> That's my take on it, at least.
>

It sounds a very Amero-centric view, tbh.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 10/02/2022 19:55, Tweed wrote:
>
>>
>> Somehow we don’t seem to get the major car pile ups of old. It used to be
>> that very many vehicles were involved in pole ups in fog on the motorways,
>> rather regularly. That doesn’t seem to happen any more. Not sure why.
>>
>
> Global warming, less fog.
>

I wonder whether, in addition to the other replies, better brakes and
brighter lights play a role?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 10/02/2022 19:55, Tweed wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Somehow we don’t seem to get the major car pile ups of old. It used to be
>>> that very many vehicles were involved in pole ups in fog on the motorways,
>>> rather regularly. That doesn’t seem to happen any more. Not sure why.
>>>
>>
>> Global warming, less fog.
>>
>
> I wonder whether, in addition to the other replies, better brakes and
> brighter lights play a role?
>

Yes, very probably.

I wonder if the mandatory high level brake lights have helped as well?
They enable drivers to see that vehicles ahead of the one immediately in
front are braking.

On 11/02/2022 12:03, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> GSM-R only allows direct cab-to-cab communication in very limited
> circumstances, assisting another train, and you both need to register with
> the same headcode, in a way so specific that I carry the reminder card with
> me in case I ever need to do it.

It usually depends on how the system is configured. I heard the
ambulance service crews were concerned that when they went to a trunked
system they would just have calls from control to one vehicle (and vice
versa) and not hear anything else because you effectively called a
specific radio but I think it was set up for Group Calling so it was
like the old system with people knowing what was going on and able offer
assistance. Though I think most calls were sent to their screens which
has continued as they moved to Airwave then the current system.

But railways obviously need to operate in a different way though I
presume there is a way for their control to call a group of users to
relay some information.

On 11/02/2022 12:16, Recliner wrote:
> I wonder if the mandatory high level brake lights have helped as well?
> They enable drivers to see that vehicles ahead of the one immediately in
> front are braking.

Lights have generally improved since the days when most British made
cars had lights made by the Prince of Darkness. Many cars drove around
on parking lights, I got stopped by police in Scotland for having dimmed
headlights on my car - on a murky day!

On 2022-02-10 22:03:50 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:

> On 10/02/2022 13:27, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 07:26:17 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 13:19:26 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 08/02/2022 02:59, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/2/22 02:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I didn't interpret the BBC report as saying the signalling was faulty.
>>>>>>>>>> The words used were 'the system which allows drivers and signallers to
>>>>>>>>>> communicate with each other was to blame' which I took to mean voice
>>>>>>>>>> communication with the drivers. Are you saying this condition would
>>>>>>>>>> affect the colour lights as well?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I originally assumed it was the basic signalling system, but further
>>>>>>>>> investigation says it's a GSM-R failure. Does any
>>>>>>>>> of the signalling system depend on GSM-R?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A fibre cut could disrupt communications to the GSM-R base stations
>>>>>>>> preventing movement authorities being transmitted to the trains.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I may be thick (or old-fashioned?) but I thought drivers used the
>>>>>>> signals to decide if they could proceed. Has "movement authority" been
>>>>>>> changed from signals to something else and are signals now redundant??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Modern in-cab signalling systems, for UK-relevance that's TVM-430 and ETCS,
>>>>>> use lineside signs to denote the ends of sections; and messages transmitted
>>>>>> to the in-cab displays to give authority to proceed and how far to proceed.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Does this apply to the Glasgow commuter network?
>>>>
>>>> No.
>>>>
>>>>> My understanding was
>>>>> that the driver could drive in accordance with the colour light
>>>>> signals and only speak to the signaller in the event of a problem. It
>>>>> remains unclear why almost the whole network came to a stop.
>>>>>
>>>> GSM-R is now used for emergency protection, ie to stop oncoming trains in
>>>> the event of an obstruction etc.
>>>
>>> Is dynamite still used at all then?
>>>
>>
>> Detonators are still carried and are still the fall-back method of
>> protection, along with track circuit clips; but GSM-R is much better
>> because it immediately stops all trains in the affected area. TC clips
>> aren't effective in axle counter areas (or other non-track-circuited areas
>> eg Absolute Block sections); full detonator protection involves walking 2km
>> (unless a lineside phone is encountered earlier), and then only protects in
>> one direction unless you have staff spare to go in both directions.
>
> I agree with you saying that, but I have also wondered in some cases if
> GSM-R takes away from safety to a degree as it would not be possible to
> hear radio chatter.

I'd have thought the risk of distraction for somebody engaged in a
safety critical role of having a radio chattering away is not going to
be very sensible, and if the driver gets used to the radio producing a
continual stream of irrelevant information, they are more likely to
miss actually critical information that comes out of it.

> I have heard of one case where the cab signals had failed. The train
> ahead of another one was complaining to the signaller about how he had
> stopped at one station, whilst the train behind had not received any
> hits on his cab signals. That is, whereas the interface indicated track
> normal aspect, it should have indicated medium (30 miles) or restricted
> (15 miles) speed at that distance.

As a rule railway signalling systems should be designed to fail safe,
this is an example of a system failing unsafe. Having a signalling
system in a failure state showing the least restrictive aspect is a
major design flaw, and such a system would be unacceptable in the UK
for railway signalling purposes.

> Because the engineer (driver) heard that communication, however, he
> knew that he was in dangerously close proximity and on the same track.
> He thus was able to go into emergency.

Relying on chance to correct for unsafe practices was deemed an
unacceptable method of operation since at least the 1890s.

> Open radio will also let one engineer speak to another to inform him if
> something is not right on his train, such as a hot box. I'm sure that
> GSM-R allows train-to-train, but it takes some time to ring up and
> inform the engineer of another train that something is amiss, rather
> than the equivalent of "Oy, mate, something's wrong."

While that has some benefits, the problem associated with the radio
system becoming just a source of background noise would be, to me, a
bigger problem.

> Indeed, if one train is speaking to the signaller about a problem, and
> another train is passing, he can observe and add to that conversation.
> As it apparently stands, the signaller would have to ring the train
> from the other direction and order him to take a look, and that is
> going to take time. That could be dangerous, depending on the situation.

Systems should be designed that if something is genuinely saftey
critical, there are automatic systems to address it. Relying on the
lucky chance of somebody noticing something safety critical is a recipe
for disaster (many such examples are documented in Red for Danger).

> What if a train suddenly stops, requiring a crew member to detrain onto
> the tracks? I would probably want the signaller to able to bark an
> order to any other trains in the vicinity to slow to restricted and
> lean on the horn. It'd be even better if other trains in the area heard
> the initial discussion.

GSMR has the capability to send and receive automatic emergency stop
requests. These are digital information passed between the radios
themselves, so there is no need for anyone to bark, sing, shout or
otherwise vocalise, simply to push the big red "oh shit" button. This
can be done by the signaller or by the driver, on their way out the
door. That signal will bring all trains in the vicinty to a halt.
Once the cause of the emergency is determined, and safety established
from whatever went wrong, the business of getting trains moving again
can resume. The best safety systems are ones that do not involve
people remembering to say and do things according to some procedure,
but rather things that operate with the minimum of human interaction.

Robin